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Montana Sen. Urges Fellow Dems To Appeal To "Middle America"; Biden: There's Is A "Clear Diplomatic Path" On Ukraine Crisis; Rubio Avoids Criticizing Trump In His Re-Election Bid. Aired 12:30-1p ET
Aired February 17, 2022 - 12:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[12:31:31]
JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Take a look with me. This is one of the maps you're going to see quite a bit this year. The 34 Senate races up this November. They are shaded red or blue to mark which party holds them at the moment. Now it's a good map for the Democrats in one way. All 14 of these blue Senate seats up this year, Democratic-held Senate seats up this year are in states carried by Joe Biden. So Democrats are not defending in any states won by Donald Trump. But it's a tough map for Democrats if you apply the Tester test. Now what is that? Montana Senator Jon Tester draws a line roughly here and roughly here. And he sees trouble.
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SEN. JON TESTER (D-MT): I honestly don't think the Democratic Party can be a majority party unless we start appealing to Middle America a lot more. I'm talking about the area between the two mountain ranges, the Appalachians and Rocky Mountains. And if we're able to do that, I think it will provide success.
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KING: That Senator Tester from a recent X Files conversation with David Axelrod, who joins us now. And Axe that conversation sent me down memory lane back to when I started covering politics. I'm going to go back even a little bit before that. But if you look at the 2022 map right now, yes, the Democrats don't have to defend any Trump states. But look at the Republican states in the middle of the country, right? Republicans in those Senate races, hardly any of those Republicans are worried in this midterm election year, because this is so sad.
I just want to go back in time. This is 1982. Ronald Reagan is president, right? Let's put that put the Tester lines back up, rough drawing a lot of Appalachians and a lot of the Rockies out here. There's a lot more blue out here. There's a lot more blue. You had Lloyd Bentsen reelected. You had Quentin Burdick in North Dakota. You had Jim Sasser in Tennessee. John Stennis, the last time a Democrat one in Mississippi was back in this 1982 election. We live now in a very different America. That's the senator's point, right? And he says Democrats just don't play in here anymore.
DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes, we're really polarized. I'd go back just to 2008 when Barack Obama ran for president. And remember, there were still significant numbers of Democrats from rural states in the Senate at that time, and we become more and more polarized. Part of it, John, is that you've seen a population drift to metropolitan areas, some Democrats oriented voters moving to those areas.
And as that has happened, you know, Democrats have become a more sort of Metropolitan centric party in its rhetoric and its language. And yes, I mean, in national campaigns, a lot of these states are written off by Democrats. But that's a dangerous game. And there are implications to that. I just make one other point about this. You know, in the Senate, we have a 50-50. Senate Democrats represent 41 million more Americans than Republicans, because these small rural states don't have large populations, but they have large influence in the Senate. That's the way the system is set up. So you write these states off in presidential elections and in statewide Senate elections, to your detriment.
KING: So let's look at -- let's do it then an hour now and then, again, if you look at the 2022 governor's races, critical races this year, and again, 16 Democratic-held seats, 20 Republican seats held up. And if you put the Tester lines up, again, you know, somewhere roughly out here for the Appalachians, roughly out here for the Rockies. Again, you see some blue, you see some blue, especially in the upper Midwestern states. Democrats have been able to maintain some success up there. But there's a lot of red in the middle, especially, again, if you go back in time, you look at 1982, and you go back and again to put the Tester lines up just to help with the conversation if you do it something like this, there's a lot more blue in here.
[12:35:03]
So listen to Senator Tester you've heard this, this is from your conversation. This is why he says a lot of blue then a lot of red now.
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TESTER: The National Democratic brand in I think in rural America generally is toxic. And it's because quite frankly, we don't show up. I'm talking about national Democrats. We're not willing to go places we're not wanted and answer questions.
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KING: Is that what it is the President of the United States how the Democrats need to start showing up more in Montana, showing up more in Idaho, showing up more in places where they're losing? Or is it showing up and taking questions? Or is it the policies?
AXELROD: Look, I think it's a combination of both. In 2008, you know, Barack Obama had the advantage of having to run a 50 state campaign to win the nomination against Hillary Clinton. And so he competed hard in the primaries and caucuses in a lot of these rural states. And he developed organizations and he showed up and he had relationships, and that mattered. But I'll tell you something else about that campaign in almost every winning national Democratic campaign, we focus very much on economic issues, and on the thing -- and on the kind of concerns that people shared broadly in this country.
We steered away from cultural issues that were -- are by definition, divisive, and there are internal pressures within the Democratic Party to do something else right now. And I think that makes it harder for Democrats in states like Montana, for example. And understand Senator Tester who's an incredibly good and a politician, I mean, that in the best sense of the word, he's up in 2024.
And Donald Trump carried that state by 16 points in 2020. He's going to have to think long and hard Senator Tester as to whether he can withstand that tide in a presidential year. So you know, he may be one of the last standing rural senators who wears a democratic label, and he may not be around after 2024. KING: That's how I read that conversation. He's looking for some help. He's looking for the cavalry to come in and help him in the states out here because he knows what's just ahead for him. Axe, appreciate any -- your perspective all the time, especially when I get to walk --
AXELROD: Great to see you, John.
KING: -- back down memory lane, appreciate it very much. Thank you.
Next, President Biden warns the risk of a Russian invasion is quote, very high. A closer look at how team Biden deals with crisis.
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KING: A warning today from the United States from the President, the Defense Secretary. and the country's top diplomat. They all say Russia is lying about its plan to pull back troops from the border with Ukraine. And listen to the Secretary of State here, he says Russia may lie again in the coming days to set the stage for an invasion.
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ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: First, Russia plans to manufacture a pretext for its attack. We don't know exactly the formal take. It could be a fabricated so called terrorist bombing inside Russia. The invented discovery of the mass grave, a stage drone strike against civilians, or a fake even a real attack using chemical weapons.
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KING: Abby Phillip, Olivier Knox, Lauren Fox still with us. Olivier, it is interesting in that they're just this has been part of the strategy all along, but especially today, I went from the top down, every top member of the President's war council, if you will, national security team, saying it's coming. Secretary Blinken going to the United States -- United Nations to just essentially almost say, Vladimir Putin, we're watching you, we know what you're thinking. OLIVIER KNOX, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, THE WASHINGTON POST: Absolutely, in some ways, this latest phase of the Ukraine conflict, which has been going on for years, you could argue even decades, this latest phase has already begun. We were seeing -- we're seeing fighting between the United States and Russia in what is commonly called the information space. And one of the really interesting parts of the Biden administration approach has been to tell the Russians, hey, we know what you're doing. We know what you're thinking. We have visibility into your strategy here in Ukraine.
There's an argument, you know, the Russians made fun of the Biden administration for saying that the invasion would come yesterday in the 16th. Well, the argument the Biden folks is right. But when you tell them that you know when they're coming, that shapes their decision making. And so it's not that it wasn't ever going to happen. It's that we think we just waited them.
KING: Right. And so the question for the President now is, can you -- by consistently doing this, there's two choices for Putin. Do you just say I'm going to move ahead with what I was going to do or do you pull back Secretary Blinken offered Secretary Lavrov an opportunity to have some conversations next time in Europe, the President says diplomacy I hope.
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JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There is. There's a clear diplomatic path. That's why I asked Senator -- Secretary Blinken to go to the United Nations and make his statement today. He'll lay out what that path is. I've laid out a path to Putin as well. And so, there is a path. There is a way through this.
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KING: It's a test for the President but also a test for his entire team. Secretary Blinken, the longtime Biden advisor and friend, they know -- they've known each other for years. General Austin is now the defense secretary. Jake Sullivan, who came out of Clinton world really but a veteran national security staffer now as the national security visor. And the United Nations Ambassador, Ambassador Greenfield, she's the one we're told that, you know, essentially told the White House the Russians are coming into the council meeting today to try to gin up, you know, they are the aggrieved party, send in the Secretary to help.
ABBY PHILLIP, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, they are boxing Putin in and giving him frankly an opportunity to deescalate to back off of war. The problem is that it's not clear that Putin wants that. And it's not clear that he cares what the consequences of war would be. So I think that's why it's not, you know, this would work under a sort of rational actor thinking model in which Putin was sort of a rational thinking leader who didn't want the bloodshed, didn't want the, you know, the isolation on the global stage.
[12:45:28] But it's possible also that Putin rejects all of this, and does it anyway, because at the end of the day, he knows that the United States, as President Biden has said, is not going to intervene to stop a war in Ukraine, they're going to punish him afterward. And Putin may very well get what he wants, whether he's isolated on the world stage or not.
KING: Right. And one of the things that the White House says has been successful. So far, Lauren, is keeping the European allies together and, you know, even bringing Germany closer to some of the other allies through the process. But one of the things that's been interesting is the President's approach is if you cross my line, Vladimir Putin, then we will punish you and punish you swiftly and severely. In Congress has been a huge debate. Should we have some sanctions now? Because Putin has already crossed some lines and violated some norms. Or do we save it all for after but they haven't been able to reach consensus?
LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, exactly. In fact, that negotiation really broke down this week, because Democrats made an offer to Republicans on Monday. On Wednesday, you had Republicans unveiling their own legislation that was Republican backed only. I think that is a telltale sign that those talks have really ended on Capitol Hill. And at this point, if there is a Russian invasion, that whole debate over whether or not sanction should come before or after an invasion or which sanctions should come before after an invasion. Really, that debate ends.
And at the end of the day, Democrats and Republicans will have to come together or the President will have to make an executive decision if lawmakers aren't in Washington next week, to swiftly enact sanctions. And you are hearing Republicans and Democrats say that the President has the full power he needs to make sure that that sanctions package is robust enough.
KING: Another piece of a very complicated puzzle to watch as we go. Appreciate everyone stopping. When we come back some new reporting, CNN reporting on Senator Marco Rubio remember he wants to call Donald Trump a con man. Now he calls him an important constituent.
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[12:51:57]
KING: A new CNN interview with Senator Marco Rubio reveals his quite complicated relationship with former President Donald Trump who also happens to be one of his constituents. Rubio says this, he's a Floridian, so I need his vote. But beyond that, I mean, he's brought a lot of people and energy into the Republican Party. That's interesting because remember 2016?
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SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): Donald Trump is the most unusual front runner we've ever had. He is someone that can't be elected in November. He will be a disaster for the conservative movement. It would -- he would be a disaster for America. He would split our party in half.
Well, he's a con man. I think it's time to unmask for what he is. He's trying to take over the conservative movement, even though he's not a conservative.
Donald Trump is not a conservative.
The party of Lincoln and Reagan and the presidency of the United States will never be held by a con artist.
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KING: Our chief congressional correspondent, Manu Raju and CNN reporter Steve Contorno, are part of this that -- behind this new reporting. Manu, let me start with you. That is a huge jump from then to now.
MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the evolution has been something to watch during the Trump years when the -- when he was the President. He did not criticize Donald Trump very often oftentimes defended then President and then when Trump has become former president, he views him as an asset as he runs for reelection in a state that has trended Republican in recent years.
And also in talking to him recently, on multiple times, he would really not have offered any sort of criticism for some of the more controversial things that Donald Trump has done whether it's his role on January 6th, he said the responsibility lies with people who broke into this building in the Capitol not with Donald Trump himself whether Donald Trump's claims and lies of the election was stolen.
I asked if he has any concerns about Donald Trump's claims, he said that he's focused on quote, real stuff focusing on issues like the Russian and potential invasion into Ukraine, economic concerns of the country. And it, John instead, he focused heavily on his likely Democratic opponent, Val Demings, calling her a quote, Pelosi puppet as he makes very clear what his focus will be, aligning with the former president and going after his Democratic opponent.
KING: Well, we know that the former presidents popular in Florida so I get it. But Steve, I want to read this quote, I've known Whit Ayres. He's a Republican pollster for a long time. He works for the Rubio presidential campaign, he says this. Donald Trump will not be around in 2044 and probably won't be around a lot sooner than that. It helps if you're going to be talking about Rubio's political career to take the long view rather than just focus on one election cycle. So in other words, manage the Trump relationship now and hope he's gone. And Rubio will have a future down the road. Is that how I'm reading that?
STEVE CONTORNO, CNN REPORTER: Yes, he has to survive not just this reelection, but really the Trump era as a whole. And right now with the way that Florida is trending, which is in, you know, turning off swing state more red, it means that you have to align yourself with President Trump and that's certainly something that Rubio has done. What's interesting as well as you talk to Republicans in Florida operatives and people at the grassroots level, they're still pretty skeptical of Rubio, you know.
He's, -- they remember those debate clashes and they remember the clips that you just showed. But he has the President endorsement and that seems to be enough for now. It certainly hasn't a primary challenge hasn't emerged at all. So Rubio is going into this election being a Trump Republican.
[12:55:09]
KING: And he said the other day if that he treat that Trump would be Joe Biden in 2024. Remember, Manu and Steve when it was going to be either Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio, the next leader of the Republican Party is going to come from Florida. Well, it's true. The next leader of the Republican Party lives in Florida, the current leader of Florida. Now he is a Floridian. Thank you both for that great reporting. And thank you for joining us in Inside Politics today. Ana Cabrera picks up our coverage after this quick break.
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