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Ukraine: More Than 2,000 Civilians Killed In Russian Invasion; City Of Kherson Surrounded By Russian Troops; Russia Ramps Up Shelling Of Kharkiv; Day 7 Of Ukraine War: Russia Makes Gains As Missiles Terrorize Cities; U.S. Amb: Russian Arsenal Includes Banned Cluster Bombs, Vacuum Bombs; Kremlin: Russian Economy Taking "Serious Blows" From Sanctions; Russia Escalates Attacks On Civilian Targets Across Ukraine. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired March 02, 2022 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

JOHN KING, CNN HOST, INSIDE POLITICS: Hello, everybody. Welcome to Inside Politics. I'm John King in Washington. Thank you for sharing your busy day with us. And we start the hour with a sober warning moments ago about potential new Russian brutality in Ukraine. This from the United States ambassador to the United Nations last hour. Listen, Ambassador Linda Thomas-Greenfield says, the Russian arsenal inside Ukraine now includes illegal weapons of war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINDA THOMAS-GREENFIELD, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO UNITED NATIONS: We've seen videos of Russian forces moving exceptionally lethal weaponry into Ukraine, which has no place on the battlefield that includes cluster munitions and vacuum bombs, which are banned under the Geneva Convention.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: There are also violent new clashes on this day seven of the conflict in Ukraine. As Russia makes plotting but important new gains in and around major Ukrainian cities, smoke and smoldering rubble leaving a trail across Kharkiv this morning. Just hours ago, Russian strike hit near the city council building. Kherson port city of 300,000 people on the Black Sea surrounded, Russia claims to control it. Ukraine insists the battle is still on.

And in the capital Kyiv, more and more devastation like this. You can see the aftermath here of a Russian attack on the city's main TV tower, charred wires, exploded trees, metal reduced to scrap. There's also fighting just outside of Kyiv and the Russians appear set on surrounding the capital. That is where we begin. Let's go to CNN's Matthew Chance live in Kyiv. Matthew, more fighting today, more negotiations scheduled to begin as well, but not much optimism they will produce anything.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No, not much optimism at this point. In fact, I spoke to President Zelensky about the hopes for a diplomatic solution to this, when I met him in his bunker here in Kyiv yesterday and he didn't have many. He just said, look, you know, we are trying to get a ceasefire. We're trying to get the Russians to stop this conflict. And only once it's the fighting has actually stopped, can we believe that we're not wasting our time.

And he, sort of said, look, we'll wait to see whether we are wasting our time. Nevertheless, they've sent a delegation to meet the Russian delegation as well. Not clear when those talks are going to start, possibly now tomorrow, there'll be starting to have a second round to see if any diplomatic sort of compromise can be reached to bring this, this fighting, this conflict to an end.

In the meantime, ferocious attacks taking place, as you mentioned, in various parts of the country in Kharkiv, the country's second city, in Mariupol in the south, elsewhere as well. Even in Kyiv yesterday, there was those dramatic strikes on the central TV tower, in which five people killed. The civilian casualty toll across this country now has been revealed to us by the emergency services of Ukraine.

They're saying that at least 2000 civilians have been killed in the past seven days of this conflict and enormous toll on the civilian population of Ukraine. And the really disturbing and worrying thing about that is, is that if Russia steps up its military activity, obviously that civilian death toll is going to skyrocket. John?

KING: Obviously, a big concern, especially as you hear the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. Matthew Chance, appreciate the live reporting from Kyiv. Let's move to southern Ukraine now. And the fight to control vital ports and shipping lanes. There's fierce fighting in Mariupol, as Matthew just noted. Russia claims control of Kherson.

CNN's Nick Paton was there just the other day. He is now in Odessa, which you see on the map another major port city. Nick, what is the latest?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Yes. Kherson does appear to have a pretty persistent Russian military presence inside of it, but that is clearly deeply unwelcome. Videos that have emerged of its central Freedom Square show one man standing in front of Russian arms, waving to Ukrainian flags. And I heard from residents there who we met in our previous visit, saying that they heard voices outside of the local administration building, shouting, we are Ukraine. We are an independent country for much of the day.

But at the same time, two social media videos have shown Russian troops leading off locals at gunpoint, seeing them walking around with shopping carts full of foods that may be evidence of how sloppily Russia supply chain appears to be providing its troops. But it's also a really troubling window as to what exactly these Russian forces are going to end up doing when they move into population areas.

We were always in that town when we're there four-five days ago, concerned about what the end game was for Russian troops in that area. Were they just interested in a strategic bridge to that particular towns east or were they at some point going to move into civilian areas?

It's clear they have done that, and quite troublingly, John, we heard from local officials that the death toll over the past two days has risen to 36, including one 14-year-old boy. This is just the beginning. This is a clear sign as to how difficult it's going to be for Russian soul to see pretty much, it seems found not particularly strong resistance inside of (Inaudible) on the outskirts of it. Yes, certainly, but in the town less so.

[12:05:00]

Exactly, how they're going to have to contend with a civilian population that's deeply hostile to their presence. And you know, you have to think about how that is to the east of where I'm standing in the desert, between us is the town of Mykolaiv that has been deeply under pressure to. And here a desert, warnings of at any point potentially, and in Phoebus landing by the Russians to try and take this third largest city and its utterly vital port. John?

KING: The vital port, the shipping lands could become hugely consequential as we move on into week two. Nick Paton Walsh, appreciate the reporting of you and your team in the southern part of Ukraine. There's also heavy shelling to the north in Kharkiv today, Ukraine second largest city, it's just south of Ukraine's border with Russia.

CNN's Frederik Pleitgen is in Belgorod. That's the major staging area on the Russian side of the border. Fred, what are you seeing today?

FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. We're still seeing a lot of, John, Russian military equipment move towards that frontline, towards Kharkiv. There were certainly some very heavy vehicles moving in there, and then also multiple rocket launchers as well. But I would say that the big difference that we've seen here from our vantage point from the Russian side, that sort of meshes also with the fact that the fighting is growing more intense in Kharkiv as well, and that there's more heavy strikes, as a lot of really heavy rocket artillery fire coming from around here.

In fact, I was hearing thoughts, just a couple of minutes before we got to air here. And then also Russian warplanes have been in the air a lot, over us throughout the course of the day. Of course, we do know that there have been several major impacts in Kharkiv, with the administrative building apparently getting hit by a cruise missile, also the police station getting hit or police headquarters getting hit as well, and the university building getting hit also today.

So, a lot of really heavy fighting. It seems as though right now, as far as conflict is concerned, as far as the Russian invasion is concerned that Kharkiv really seems to be one of their focal points, and certainly a point where the fighting appears to be some of the heaviest in the entire conflict.

I do have one bit of sort of breaking news for you as well, John, the Russians now, for the first time are acknowledging whereas are putting numbers on the amount of casualties that they have. They haven't really done this before. They've acknowledged that the Russian soldiers have died, but have not said how many, they are now saying 498 Russian soldiers have been killed so far.

Those are numbers that were just put out by the Russian ministry of defense. And they're saying 15,197 Russian soldiers were wounded. Now that, if those numbers were correct, certainly would already be a pretty high toll for a week of an operation, which the Russians don't even acknowledge that there is a war, but they say is a special operation.

The Ukrainians, of course, have been saying that a lot more Russian soldiers have already been killed. They put the number at close to 6000. So certainly, a lot going on there. But I can tell you from being here on the ground on the Russian side, you can really feel how that battle, especially in Kharkiv extremely intense, John?

KING: Incredibly important reporting. Fred Pleitgen, appreciate the work of you and your team there, helping us understand this. Fred, thank you. And on this day, seven a quick then an hour now and then look to get a better sense of where things stand. You just listen to our correspondents Nick Paton Walsh down here. You see the red, that's Russian controlled areas.

This is where Fred Pleitgen, as you see the red up here Russian troops have crossed in. Over here from Belarus and from Russia, Russian troops have crossed in, expanding the area in the Donbass. Just go back. This is where we were one week ago. Russia annex Crimea back in 2014. Russian control in the separatists' areas here. But look at the difference.

This was the beginning. This is where we are now. Yes, it's applauding advance. Yes, the Pentagon says, not going anywhere near as quickly as Vladimir Putin had hoped. But Russia controls more and more territory, including as you begin to see here, troops on this side of Kyiv, troops on this side of Kyiv. I want to discuss the significance of that now.

Let's get some critical perspective. General John Allen is the former Special Presidential Envoy for the Global Coalition to Counter ISIS. He's also the author of this, the Future War and the Defence of Europe. General Allen, grateful for your time today. Just from a military perspective, big picture. It's not going as fast as Vladimir Putin wanted. The Ukrainian military and Ukrainian people are putting up resistance.

But if you're looking at this as the battlefield, Russian almost complete control down here, key shipping lanes in the ports, Russian troops paddling, shelling Kharkiv. And I think significantly, the seat of government in Kiev, now coming from the north, essentially to both sides of that city. What does it tell you one weekend? GEN. JOHN ALLEN (RET.), FMR SPECIAL PRESIDENTIAL ENVOY FOR GLOBAL COALITION TO COUNTER ISIS: Well, one weekend, John, and thanks for everything CNN is doing to shine a bright light on this Russian invasion. One weekend, almost certainly they have not been able to meet their timeline in this campaign, or to meet the objectives that they had intended. So, the Russians, as you might imagine, and we're seeing it and your reporters are reporting it. The Russians are defaulting to their typical way of war. Their reflex with respect to applying massive firepower to support their advances, and that's what's beginning to happen.

[12:10:00]

We're getting to see massive firepower applied, not just against Ukrainian forces, but against population centers. And we've seen this over and over and over again when the Russians have gone to war, whether it's in Chechen in Chechnya or against the Georgians or in Syria, which I watched very closely in 2015 when they're bombing hospitals and safe havens, et cetera.

So, get ready. This is going to be a massive application of Russian firepower, sadly, tragically, against the Ukrainian civilian population. The numbers are going up among civilian casualties. And there's no question that the Russians are now guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity. We'd better be keeping score about this if you go forward.

KING: You make a sobering point there, troubling point right there, General Allen. I just want to move to a different map to make that point. I just want to look at the area around Kyiv right now. This is the Antonov airport out here. It's a big-large military airport. There's a civilian airport. You can see it maybe the white lines on the map right here. This is Irpin, this is essentially a suburban area.

I think about New Rochelle, New York, if this is New York City, it's about 20-25 miles, as you come down - come on down. We know General this fighting here today. We know the Ukrainian parliament is here. The idea of Russian troops moving. We know Russian troops have come in from this side of the city and this side of the city.

There are two main highways from this side. There's a highway up toward this airport. Then you can go west toward NATO nations and there's a straight east west highway to Kyiv like this. It looks to me as if as you watch these Russian troops and people depending on whether they're trying to encircle the city. What would that mean if your goal is to topple the government?

GEN. ALLEN: Well, first, they would want to cut off all lines of communications, that terrestrial line. So, they'd want to cut off all the roads, both into and out of the city to prevent its resupply. And they also want to isolate the city by going after its internet connections, attack it in a cyber way to prevent the capacity to use the internet and cell phone traffic et cetera, to communicate out. And then attack the - as it did yesterday with the television tower. Eliminate the capacity for command and control, if you will, coming out of Kyiv to other cities, and subordinate military unit.

So, you would expect, John, that they would want to encircle the city, cut off all communications, not just terrestrial communications, but occasions in the cyber environment and information environment to isolate the city and then began to squeeze.

KING: And so, let me follow up with two quick questions on this one. Number one, I just want to put up the entire map of the country at this moment. Number one is, if the Russian advance on Kyiv continues, the question becomes despite his heroism so far, is it safe for President Zelensky to stay there. He says he will stay. The president United States today, listen, says that's his call.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How worried are you about President Zelensky and do you think he should stay in Ukraine, or do you think he should try to leave?

JOE BIDEN, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA PRESIDENT: I think it his judgment to make and we're doing everything we can to help him.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: From your vast experience, if the Russians continued to encircle Kyiv. Would you think the advice of the president United States should be stay in fight? You're a critical symbol right now. Or let's get you out, we need to keep your government alive.

GEN. ALLEN: Well, it's a tough call, John. It really is at this particular moment. Look, he has become an international hero. If somebody ever wants to talk about, an example of resistance and courage under fire is President Zelensky in the Ukraine. Obviously, opposing a completely contrived Russian excuse for an invasion of his country. He's going to have to make that decision when the time comes.

It's very important that he stay alive. It's very important that there is continuity of government. And at some point, if the squeeze becomes enough, he may have to evacuate the city. But that's going to have to be his call. And we shouldn't be attempting to impose that on him.

KING: Lastly, general, you have seen things that we don't see because of your experience in war. When you hear the United States ambassador to the United Nations. And we've seen, our correspondents have seen some of these Russian forces moving in no evidence they've used them yet. Ukrainian say, they have. We haven't seen video evidence of this cluster bombs, vacuum weapons.

You know, from reports out of Chechnya and from Russian actions, supporting actions in Syria. What these weapons can do, if though that arsenal is now inside Ukraine? Russia has shown in the past it is not afraid to use them. What are we talking about here?

GEN. ALLEN: Well, they're both devastating weapons. And actually, John, I saw a video the other day on one of the networks, that when I saw, it was from an apartment building, looking down in a parking lot with cars in. And I saw multiple small yield explosions and I thought to myself, my God, they're using cluster munitions. Because what happens is, the large projectile expels a series of small projectiles.

When they hit the ground, they bounce up about six feet or so in depth. And I could see that that was what was happening. So, I thought, my God, they're already using cluster munitions inside Ukraine. And to the ambassador's point about vacuum weapons. These are called thermobaric weapons, and they are devastating.

So, the fact that the Russians are potentially already using cluster munitions and potentially could use thermobaric weapons against either Ukrainian military forces, Ukrainian resistance fighters or civilian populations. Look, we got to keep our pens sharp here and we need to be writing down all of these crimes against humanity because they're mounting.

[12:15:00]

This is a democratic country that was peaceful. It was no threat to the Russians and now they're using illegal weapon systems against the Ukrainian military, the Ukrainian resistance fighters and the Ukrainian people. Russians have to pay a price for this.

KING: General Allen, grateful for your time. A key point at the end there, this was a peaceful country. A democracy, still a democracy but a week ago none of these Russian troops expanding like that. General Allen, grateful for your perspectives. Are up next for us, the Kremlin, concedes economic sanctions are causing Russia's sharp pain. Look at what that means for everyday Russians and for Vladimir Putin's war plans.

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KING: The scene, right here just moments ago, the United States General Assembly overwhelmingly voting to condemn Russia's invasion of Ukraine. And you see there, a rare standing ovation in the general assembly chambers. Also today, the Kremlin conceding, western sanctions are dealing "serious blows to Russia's economy." Moscow kept the stock market closed for third consecutive day. The ruble continues to swamp.

With me now, to share his insights and expertise, the former U.S. Ambassador to NATO, Ivo Daalde. Ambassador Daalde, grateful for your time today. He's also the author of The Empty Throne: America's Abdication of Global Leadership. The general assembly rebuking Russia, the Kremlin for being candid for a very rare way, candidates saying the economic sanctions are taking a dramatic hit. And yet, do you see any evidence that Vladimir Putin will change his behavior?

IVO DAALDE, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO NATO: No, unfortunately, I do not even though, I think the costs are really mounting on him. The Russian ministry of defense, as you reported earlier saying that Russian soldiers are dying in a war that, in fact is not supposed to be taking place. So, the pressure on Putin is real. I think the international community is coming together, condemning this behavior and really putting significant economic pressure on Vladimir Putin.

And yet, this is not about the economy in Russia. This is all about Vladimir Putin believing that he has the right to determine what his neighbors can and cannot do. And if they don't want to do what he wants to do, he'll invade them. And that's what we're seeing to happen here right now. It's not a surprise, he did this. We knew it was coming. Perhaps the surprises it's not happening as quickly as he thought. But I have no doubt that we're just at the very, very beginning of a really ugly conflict.

KING: And because of your experience in these matters. Sir, your question is, will the west be prepared for a really, really long response? If we're going to have a really, really ugly conflict. You wrote this in foreign affairs, an effective 21st century update of our containment, would consist of three main pillars, maintaining U.S. military strength, decoupling Western economies from Russia, and isolating Moscow. Together, these three elements will steadily increase the cost to Russia.

I'm old enough to understand what the word containment means. But that is a cold war mentality, where you are in for a long haul. We in the west to sometimes frankly, just get lazy. We would have - did we win today? That's not what this is about in your view. You think this needs to be a 10-15-year strategy?

DAALDE: Well, it needs to be a strategy till Putin and his regime are no longer there. That's the ultimate goal, and containment is a policy that the United States adopted back in the early - in the late 1940s. After World War II when the Soviet Union was expanding into Eastern Europe, and a senior diplomat George Kennan in the Moscow embassy wrote about, the importance of counter pressure to Soviet expansionism.

We need exactly the same counter pressure, significant military capabilities to defend our allies in Eastern Europe, a economic decoupling strategy that we are well on the way of implementing in just a week now and the political isolation of Russia, which we see in the vote in the U.N. General Assembly. And that pressure over time should lead to internal pressure for change.

And it's not about us going in and invading Russia and doing regime change, as we've done in the last 20 or 30 years, which by the way, has been terribly unsuccessful. It's about creating internal stresses in the Russian system, that lead to political change from below, from an inside rather than from the outside. That's going to take time. It's going to take not just weeks or months. It's going to take years.

And the only way this is going to be successful is if the west remains united and determined to see this all the way through the end. No matter what the cost, no matter what the consequences to our own economies. They're much less than as President Biden said yesterday in the State of the Union, much less than what we're inflicting on Russia, and of course, much, much less than the people of Ukraine are suffering just right now.

KING: Major question as we move forward, Ambassador Daalde, we'll come back and revisit the conversation. Appreciate your time today, sir.

DAALDE: My pleasure.

KING: Next, for us a massive wave of Ukrainians desperately fleeing their homes to escape Russia's violence. We're live on the ground, next.

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[12:25:00]

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KING: There's new information this hour on the size and scope of the Russian assault in Ukraine. Moscow has launched 450 missiles in the early days of the conflict that from a senior U.S. defense official. The U.S. ambassador to the United Nations last hour, says the Russian arsenal inside Ukraine, now includes illegal weapons of war, including cluster munitions and vacuum bombs. This as Russia ramps up strikes on some of Ukraine's largest cities.

Just this morning, you see here hitting a city council building in Kharkiv. Stunning images today of workers and a nuclear power plant lining up to block Russian forces from advancing that in the southern part of Ukraine. One of the civilian targets hit in recent Russian attacks.

A site right at the Holocaust memorial in Kyiv. Ukraine's chief rabbi telling CNN this morning that deadly strike reawakens images of the massacre, of thousands of Jews decades ago. Our CNN senior national security correspondent, Alex Marquardt is near Kyiv and has visited that site. Alex, tell us more?

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, night has fallen again here and with that comes fears of renewed aerial bombardment by the Russians, which is why there are so many lights out all across the city and in the region. That's why you can't really see anything behind me and we're using just one light to come on the air with you.