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Trump Allies In Congress Vow To Punish DOJ; Poll: Trump Leads GOP Filed By Big Margin; Trump Indictment Rattles 2024 Rivals; 2024 GOP Shy Away From Attacking Trump; Miami Mayor Francis Suarez Launches WH Bid. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired June 15, 2023 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Today on Inside Politics follow the leader. The Trump wing of the Republican Congress goes after the Biden Justice Department. And new reporting on how the Biden campaign plans to generate campaign cash without mentioning the Trump indictment.

Plus, Miami Mayor Francis Suarez is literally and figuratively running. He debuts in the 2024 race with long odds and video of him, yes, running. And by ducking the question every single candidate will have to answer. And Cornel West changes his game plan. He's running for president and he's now switching parties. He calls Donald Trump a criminal but is his campaign and in kind donation to the GOP front runner. He'll join the show in minutes.

I'm Dana Bash. Let's go behind the headlines at Inside Politics.

Pencil in a post indictment first. Today, Donald Trump's campaign choosing picking South Carolina as the stage for the former president's first rally following his arraignment. But there are already plenty of ways to measure the indictments, political impact, 7 million of them to be precise.

That's how much the Trump campaign claims to have raised since the 49- page charging document was made public on Friday, another measure what you might call it fealty in the halls of Congress. Some Republicans in the upper chamber say, Trump's conduct is too toxic to suburban voters but look at the House rank and file. Most of them are toeing the Trump line or saying nothing at all.

I want to start on Capitol Hill with CNN's chief congressional correspondent Manu Raju, who is probably already got his steps in at noon eastern. You've been talking to members, what are you hearing?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. A lot of pressure on the speaker to go as far as members on the hard right one, in seeking retribution and going after the Justice Department in the wake of the Donald Trump indictment.

A number of these members of the House Freedom Caucus part of that hard right block are pushing for everything from going after the salaries of top officials at the FBI and the Justice Department something called the Holman rule on Capitol Hill also trying to restrict funding, dismantle the DOJ or FBI in some ways, and others even going as far as calling for impeachment of the attorney general. And for the FBI Director Chris Wray.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. BOB GOOD, (R-VA): Well, we should impeach Merrick Garland who's clearly abusing the power of this position. We ought to impeach Director Wray as well.

REP. RALPH NORMAN, (R-SC): The FBI, whole Justice Department needs to be looked at.

RAJU: Defunding -- -

NORMAN: We will be.

RAJU: Defunding the FBI?

NORMAN: Parts of it.

REP. DON BACON (R-NE): We're missing the obvious. We have somebody that has hundreds and hundreds of top secrets that has House, showing to unclear people. And then he lied about it. I'm not in the mood for mold for defending that. And I don't think my colleagues should either.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And that last comment, government Congressman Don Bacon, a member from a swing district in Nebraska, underscoring the divide within the Republican conference in the House and Senate over how to respond to Donald Trump. Bacon very much concerned about the details in that tropic diamond wants the party to move on from Trump.

But that is not the way that a lot of the most outspoken members in the House in particular feel, which is why it will put a lot of pressure on speaker McCarthy about how exactly to move forward and whether or not to line up with some of those calls from the hard right.

We do know there's an effort by the House Judiciary Committee chairman to try to get Merrick Garland to provide some records to the committee about the search at Mar-a-Lago that retrieved all those classified documents that Trump initially refused to do.

But what will happen if they don't get those records? And how far will they go? All big questions, Dana, as House Republicans and some Senate Republicans are calling for retribution, but unclear about how far they will go.

BASH: Manu, thank you. So fascinating, especially the juxtaposition with Congressman Bacon and everybody else who it seems that you're talking to who we'll talk at least. Thanks Manu, for that. And here with me at the table to share their reporting CNN's Gloria Borger, CNN's Audie Cornish, and Jackie Kucinich of The Boston Globe. Thanks for coming in. Gloria, I would just want to start with you and your reaction to what not only Manu was hearing, but I know because you work your sources all day long. What you're hearing?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think that, you know, there is kind of this Republican two step going on in the presidential campaign as well as on Capitol Hill. You have the conservatives on the Freedom Caucus, and they'll say what they say, and they'll threaten what they threaten.

[12:05:00]

But a large number of Republicans are first saying, OK, the Justice Department's been weaponized. There's unequal justice in this country. Republicans are treated differently from Democrats, Hillary Clinton, Joe Biden, Hunter Biden, et cetera.

But then they do a little lip, part two, and they say, what occurred was serious. And we have to think about this, and this should not occur. And you just heard Congressman Bacon saying that, and I don't approve of it. And then the third part of it is, of course, what the presidential candidates are saying, which is anything from, I'll give him a pardon to Mike Pence, surprisingly, saying, I don't know what I would do.

AUDIE CORNISH, CNN ANCHOR AND CORRESPONDENT: You know, you and I have covered these hearings a lot, right? And they can go either way. On the one hand, you get to say, this is what we care about. This is the problem. On the other hand, lawmakers who disagree with, you can also speak, which means they can spend all that time reintroducing the audience to the indictment, talking about other issues that have happened with the Justice Department that maybe Democrats are upset with.

So, it's not a slam dunk to say, oh, we're going to just put all this attention on this idea of weaponizing the government, and we'll just talk about that, especially when you're trying not to talk about it all that much. So, even though it seemed at first, like oh, they were just going to do all the dirty work of talking about this. There's a political cost to them as well.

JACKIE KUCINICH, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, THE BOSTON GLOBE: But I think this just shows how oriented -- how oriented the GOP still is around former President Trump, and how hard it is for these contenders to try to break through, particularly if they're not going to say anything judgmental or negative about what former President Trump is alleged to have done. But because of just the loyalty on display, both from elected officials and from voters on the ground.

CORNISH: Well, that's about gerrymandering, right, like basically, they already lost in the midterms or did not have the gains they could have had, in part because several candidates on the Republican side have said because of Donald Trump. The problem is so many people in House come from districts where there is rock solid support for Trump that they can't move in that direction.

BORGER: So, it's not so much real loyalty, is it fear. It's just fear of loyal, but I think as a loyalty.

BASH: Loyalty, yes, that's good. As you continue that conversation, I just want to put up some polling on the screen for our viewers to look at Quinn poll that just came out. I mean, look at that. Donald Trump 53 percent, DeSantis is the closest to him at 23 percent. So, the fear factor that you're talking about is all of the above. And it's all connected, right?

I mean, it's the fear of the electorate. They all share the same electorate, particularly the House Republicans who come from ruby red districts that if they don't toe the line, they're going to get a Trump backed primary challenge.

BORGER: Right. There is no compromising for people in those districts. It's either or, and you're supporting Donald Trump. But people like, I looked at that, Chris Christie has moved up. He's what 4 percent. I think he was 1 percent before because Chris Christie and Asa Hutchinson are the two who are really going at Donald Trump frontally.

But it's the sense of we don't -- we don't want to lose our seats. We don't want to lose the presidential primaries. And there's kind of no way around that for these people. And if you look at DeSantis, who is still considerably behind Donald Trump, he's kind of stayed back. I mean, he said, you know, oh, if I had done this, I would have been court martialed, if I had taken documents back to my room. But that's as far as he's really gone on.

BASH: We're going to talk to two Republican strategists who worked for 2016 candidates about like, what it would be like to be in the campaigns of his opponents now. But we also happened to have people who ran against him, who are still serving in the United States Senate. And I want to just play what they're saying right now about this Trump indictment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R-SC): President Trump, we have your back, you could take the Dalai Lama and making the Republican nominee that tried to destroy his life.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): With the Trump indictment, which is utter and complete garbage. With the Trump indictment, there's a complete and utter double standard.

SEN. MARCO RUBIO (R-FL): There's no allegation that there was harm done to the national security. There's no allegation that he sold it to a foreign power.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: That's the line.

KUCINICH: But seriously, I mean, that, again, this is the fear and loyalty that you're hearing from these members of Congress. I mean, Ted Cruz the Kimberlin, what the topic was. He said something mildly negative about former President Trump during Tucker Carlson and wasn't he browbeat into a retreat.

And I think in some places, the indictment has had the effect of bringing voters back to Trump. And we were -- our just been -- big good was in Michigan a couple of days ago. And when the indictment came down, and there was a woman there a voter who said, you know, I was actually thinking of DeSantis but they're going after Trump. So, I'm going to say, oh well.

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BORGER: I think the victim thing is big. I think that his -- as he has said to audiences, they're going after me, and they'll go after you.

CORNISH: At the end of the day, though, the party is always going to struggle if it has no post Trump vision period. They have never figured out what the lane is for anyone else. It's not just about what he's doing. It's about what they're doing, at least DeSantis has staked out conceptually, something even if as Trump points out, it's the same word over and over again.

But for these others, they are still defined by what he says and what he does not say. And there is no, I have no idea what wing of the party there is anymore, right? The National Security Wing is withering under this conversation. We know the kind of neocon interventionalists don't -- can't get a peep in in this conversation, even as they fight to talk about Ukraine. There is no sense of like what the party is like next.

BORGER: Because it's all over the place. I mean when Marco Rubio -- -

CORNISH: But it doesn't have to be, it could be something.

BORGER: Marco Rubio co-chairman of intelligence or -- -

BASH: Vice chair.

BORGER: Yes. They share it. When he said there's no evidence of harm to national security. How about the fact that he was showing these documents to people who have no, you know, no classification? I have to see it.

BASH: Yes. We're going to talk a little bit more about that later. Everybody standby, a political riddle. Only Joe Biden has solved this riddle, how to beat Donald Trump. Up next, a pair of veteran campaign strategists on what advice they would give people not named Donald Trump running for president in the Republican field. Stay with us.

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[12:15:00]

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BASH: Donald Trump's indictment is rattling his 2024 Republican rivals. The dilemma, defend the former president or defend the rule of law. And now some candidates are squabbling about potentially pardoning the GOP front runner. The latest entry into that debate is Mike Pence. He says, I'm not there yet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MIKE PENCE, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (voiceover): I take the pardon authority very seriously. It's an enormously important power of someone in an executive position. And I just think it's premature to have any conversation about that right now. Look, we either believe in our judicial process in this country or we don't. We either stand by the rule of law or we don't.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Let's discuss, what it's like to run against Donald Trump with two people who work for his opponents in 2016. David Kochel, former senior strategist of Jeb Bush's 26 campaign, and here in D.C., Alex Conant, who is a former communications director for Marco Rubio for president.

David, since you are in the first in the nation, Iowa state, a caucus state of Iowa. Let's start with you. You say, it would be quote, debt by thousands cuts to beat Trump. Mike Pence has intensified his rhetoric as you just heard, since the indictment was unsealed. Is that enough to compete against his former boss?

DAVID KOCHEL, FORMER SENIOR STRATEGIST, JEB BUSH CAMPAIGN: Well, I think it's going to help. First of all, when you declare for president, you're implying that you're a better candidate, and you'd be a better president. So, the initial kind of round of talking points from these candidates, including Pence was to go after the Biden Justice Department, which is fine, go after that. All you want.

But you're trying to make an argument here at campaign as a competition. And you need to be able to say why you'd be better and why Trump is flawed, why he shouldn't be president again. And I think once the indictment was released publicly, it got a little easier.

You can see some of these candidates, including the vice president, you know, kind of step up their rhetoric a little bit and be able to really call out the president for making a huge mistake. And you know, making a mess, kind of -- it's a mess of his own, maybe.

BASH: And Alex, you believe every Republican candidate realizes they need to go through Trump to win the nomination. I mean, isn't it time at this point? I mean, particularly with this kind of in any other world political gift, like this unprecedented indictment.

ALEX CONANT, PARTNER, FIREHOUSE STRATEGIES: I think it's early and it's still maybe. I think, at this early stages, it is being framed in conservative media as the Biden Justice Department versus Donald Trump and the former Republican president. And that puts candidates in an awkward situation because they're either siding with the Biden administration or with Trump, and then us versus them. Well, that's awkward to navigate.

I think, look, I think the Mike Pence's approach I think is the right one. You don't want to dive into this before all the facts are known before the trial even begins. This is going to play out I think over the course of many, many months. There's going to be other opportunities to go head on head with the president. I think at this moment, kind of let Trump continue to own this story, because I don't think these candidates want to get anywhere near it.

BASH: OK. Not to put you in a tough position. But we were talking, I'm sure you heard in the last segment about the guy you work for, for president in 2016. Marco Rubio, he's now the top Republican on the Senate Intelligence Committee. Here is what he said earlier this week.

Oh, sorry. I'm going to read it. It's not a soundbite.

The DOJ is seeking to jail for life, not just a former president, but the leading opponent of the current president in the 2024 election. The damage this is already inflicting on our country far outweighs the damage, if any, from what they allege in the indictment.

CONANT: I mean, that's not just what Marco Rubio is saying. I think that's what just about every elected Republican, certainly everyone on conservative media saying that is conventional wisdom within conservative circles right now.

And so, you know, I think that's kind of typical of the environment that these presidential candidates are finding themselves running. And these are the voters -- the voters that they need to appeal too, agree with Marco Rubio on that. And so, I think that is the challenge of running for president against Donald Trump right now.

BASH: Would you be advising him not to say that as the guys (crosstalk)

[12:20:00]

CONANT: I'm not. I'm no longer -- -

BASH: I know. OK, fair. Again, I don't want to put you in that kind of position. David, I want you to look at something that the Washington Post opinion columnist Alexandra Petri said, it was very mocking of the Trump 2024 opponents. She said, I don't even know why I mentioned Jeb. No, excuse me, she said, I'm reading the wrong thing. I stand 100 percent with Donald Trump, but please vote for me instead of him.

And then she writes, maybe it's not a competition at all. Maybe I'm just here because I wanted to run with Donald Trump, because he's the most perfect godlike being ever glimpsed on this earth Anyway, please vote for me instead of him as president. David?

KOCHEL: I mean, this is the point I've been making on Twitter. And I'll make this point to anyone. It's a contest. You're running against the former president, you're not running to support him, he can make the case for himself. These candidates have to make the case for themselves, not for the former president. And by the way, 70 percent of Iowans are open to someone other than Donald Trump, even though he's got to lead in the polls there.

You know, Iowa voters make up their minds late. They're open to other candidates. And if you're not in there making your own case for your own candidacy and your own presidency, I don't know what you're doing in the race. So, I think, you know, she's got a good point with that. I just, I think they've got to move on from the defending Trump on these charges and start making their own case. That's what he said.

BASH: Yes. And I hear you on that. But what about the point that Alex was just making. Is that a lot of these hardcore caucus voters where you are caucus goers are primary voters in New Hampshire and in South Carolina, who are on the conservative media feedback loop. Who, you know, might hear a message like you're recommending, and say, I'm not going to vote for that person.

KOCHEL: Well, sure, you can't. Once you start attacking the president frontally like Chris Christie did the other day, they kind of put on the jersey and want to fight back. But still, you know, you can say, look, I voted for Trump twice. I supported him as president. But and then you've got to get to the, you know, to the but, he can't be reelected, or but he, you know, did a bad job on the budget, he did a bad job on the border.

You know, whatever your case is, you got to make it. You don't have to just attack Trump frontally. But you have to draw contrast. You have to say why you're better, and why he isn't. And if you're not doing that, you shouldn't be running.

BASH: Alex, you're nodding your head.

CONANT: No, I completely agree with that. I think you need to make a clear contrast with the president on why you would be a better Republican nominee than he would be at this point. And I think a clear -- I think a clear argument is electability. Trump has lost two as last for his reelection campaign, Republicans had fared very poorly when he was at the top of the ticket. I think that is a clear message for Republican cans to be leaning into. I'd like to see more of them making that argument.

BASH: What a great discussion. Will you guys come back?

CONANT: Absolutely.

BASH: OK, good. Thank you so much to both of you.

KOCHEL: Absolutely.

BASH: And for giving us your strategy brands really interesting and have a lot of time to talk. The latest entry in the 2024 race. Miami's Republican mayor hopes to make the jump from running a city to running the country. Plus, a sneak peek into the Biden campaign fundraising strategy. That's ahead.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BASH: He's running, Miami Mayor Francis Suarez says, he wants to be a Republican nominee for the party's nomination. In fact, the 45-year- old released a video today with a not-so-subtle jab at his competition.

(VIDEO PLAYING)

BASH: My panel is back, along with CNN's Jeff Zeleny. You guys do get it. He's running.

BORGER: He's literally.

BASH: Do you get it?

BORGER: Got it.

BASH: Like, I just wanted to make sure that you get it.

BORGER: A couple of shots of his (crosstalk), yes.

BASH: Jeff, your thoughts?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Look, he clearly wants to present himself as a runner as a generational change in this growing field different than former President Trump, different than President Joe Biden, different than any other candidate in the race. He's 45, so you're older than Florida Governor Ron DeSantis. She's the only Hispanic candidate in the race.

BASH As you talk with, put up his bio because a lot of people don't know what's the matter (Ph).

ZELENY: Sure. So, generationally he is -- he has a great biography. Politically, he's running from a very interesting spot. The mayor of Miami, he's been elected in 2017, reelected in 2021. It's largely a ceremonial position. The administrative duties are conducted by the administrator of the city of Miami and the big-elected position there is the mayor of Miami Dade County out of Miami.

But he's been a showman, a salesman for Miami and he is a good communicator. He has been the leader of the council of mayors traveling around the country. So, look, his big challenge will be trying to get on that debate stage I think, come August.

KUCINICH: But there's lots of reasons to run for president. Yes, to be president, but also raises your profile. Julian Castro comes to mind. He was the mayor of San Antonio is that correct? Also, kind of a ceremonial position and I'm ended up a Cabinet Secretary. I'm not saying that the mayor of Miami is trying to get the inside track.

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