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Gunman In 2018 Pittsburgh Synagogue Mass Shooting Convicted Of Capital Offense; Pittsburgh Synagogue Shooter Found Guilty; Synagogue Shooter Found Guilty Of Capital Offenses, Hate Crimes: Eligible For Death Penalty; Jury Convicts Robert Bowers On All 63 Counts In 2018 Pittsburgh Synagogue Mass Shooting; RNC Rejects Changing Oath To Back Nominee; RNC: Stop Complaining About Loyalty Pledge. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired June 16, 2023 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR, NEWS CENTRAL: This is very painful for that community, but also very important for that community to get justice. And today they got some of it. This man found guilty of every count that we know of, including the capital murder offenses. He could face the death penalty.

Caroline Polisi, thank you very much. Obviously, much more on all of this breaking news. CNN following it from every possible angle. This has been CNN News Central. Inside Politics picks up right now.

DANA BASH, CNN HOST, INSIDE POLITICS: Hello and welcome to Inside Politics. I'm Dana Bash, and we begin with breaking news. The man who massacred Jews at a Pittsburgh synagogue is now staring down the death penalty. A jury just found that shooter guilty on multiple counts, nearing 40 counts so far. They're still reading in that courtroom and includes capital offenses and hate crimes.

I want to go outside the courtroom. That is where we have CNN's Danny Freeman live in Pittsburgh. Danny, what are you hearing so far?

DANNY FREEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Dana, as you said, we're getting live reports from our reporter who is inside the courtroom as we speak, illustrating each single one of these counts, and so far, we've been through 40, including special instructions. So far, all have been found guilty. And that is including Dana, as you said, the 22 capital offenses.

Remember, Robert Bowers, he faces 63 federal charges already convicted of 41 now, I should say, 22 of capital offenses, and I just want to read the capital offenses he's facing. It's obstruction of free exercise of religious belief resulting in death, and then also the use and discharge of a firearm to commit murder during and in relation to a crime of violence and possession of a firearm in furtherance of a crime of violence.

And also, Dana, convicted so far on all of the hate crimes that he was accused of earlier. And I just want to reset for a moment. This is a long time coming. This shooting happened on October 27, 2018. This community in Pittsburgh, this Jewish community in Pittsburgh has been waiting for some kind of justice, some kind of answer to have their day in court. And they're getting this as we speak.

And just, if it's all right, I'll read the names specifically where these capital offenses come in. Robert Bowers convicted of killing and obstructing their ability to exercise their religious beliefs. Joyce Feinberg, Richard Gottfried, Rose Mallinger, Jerry Rabinowitz, Cecil Rosenthal, David Rosenthal, Bernice Simon, Sylvan Simon, Dan Stein, Mel Wax and Irv Younger.

So, Dana, that's the latest from this point. We're now after these -- this full list of charges and convictions. If they continue this way are done and finished, then we will move on to the death penalty phase. And that's where we're expecting the defense to actually spend a lot more time trying to spare Robert Bowers life essentially, because they never disputed that he was the one who came into that synagogue and killed those 11 worshippers.

They were just trying to poke holes in the motive. We heard that in the closing arguments yesterday. But I think we're going to see a lot more activity from the defense in this definitely face also note, the prosecution called 60 witnesses to get to this guilt phase. The defense did not call a single witness and they only cross examined a handful.

So again, we're listening. We're looking at these verdicts coming through, 46 now convictions for Robert Bowers in the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting trial. Dana?

BASH: Danny, a 46 so far again, we could say that as we speak, because it is a federal court. We don't have cameras in, we don't have audio in, but we do have a producer in there who is getting us the information. 63 charges in total, as you said Danny 22 capital charges. He's guilty on those and we're waiting for the rest of the 10 and change or so. We're going to get back to you when you get more information. As we get all of the counts, Danny.

I wanted to bring in Elie Honig, CNN legal analyst. And Elie, so much to explore here with you. I just want to say first and foremost, I know obviously, you're an attorney. And I want you to give me the legal point of view and import of this. But just in reading what has happened during the course of this trial.

The prosecutors laying out in very stark, harrowing detail about this shooter, going into the synagogue where three -- actually three separate congregations were worshipping at the same time on that day in October of 2018. He was hunting down Jews who were worshipping, some were wrapped in their prayer shawls. Some were clutching their prayer books. And now we have a jury in the midst of finding him guilty of capital offenses.

ELIE HONIG, FORMER ASSIST. U.S. ATTORNEY, SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NY: Yes, Dana. This is a moment of deep solemnity and grief, and one would hope some measure of justice for the victims and for their families and for the entire community. This is the worst single antisemitic attack most deadly antisemitic attack in United States history. [12:05:00]

And what's really important to me about this verdict than I imagined to the victims and the families is that prosecutors had to prove and now the jury has found as a necessity under law that the reason this person committed this heinous attack was because of antisemitism because he was motivated by hatred for Jewish people.

You cannot find this individual guilty unless you find that that's the reason for the attack under the hate crimes laws. The jury has now made that finding. And you know, Dana, our system, our justice system can never undo what's done, it can never undo the hurt, but it hopefully can deliver at least some measure of justice and solace. And that's what we've seen here today from this jury.

BASH: And Elie, as we continue to talk, I want to put the names and the faces of those who were hunted and murdered on that day in October of 2018. We heard Danny read the names. And these are individuals who now they have, has been found by a jury of their peers that they were killed because this man went in and had hate in his heart, and hate in his heart, specifically, when it comes to Jews.

Again, as we talk about that in the solemnity of it -- of that, when you think about the legal impact, and the legal import of this being the biggest and the most, the biggest massacre of Jews in American history of this kind. What does it say when it comes to precedent of this kind of hate crime in the legal system?

HONIG: Well, a couple of important things here, Dana. First of all, the fact that the Justice Department chose to bring this case, chose to bring federal charges. Importantly, a murder is a state level crime. And there are state charges that have been put on hold, pending this investigation in this case.

But I think it was a powerful statement by the United States Department of Justice made actually under the prior administration, when this horrible event happened, that we're going to prosecute this as a hate crime. That we are going to argue and prove to a jury that the reason that this man went into a synagogue was intentional, because he hated Jewish people.

He had posted things online that he wanted to kill all Jews, but there was a strange sort of defense argument here that actually he wanted to -- he was angry at immigrants, not Jewish people, but immigrants. And the jury has soundly rejected that. So, now we know that a jury has found, and I think this is -- I imagine this is quite significant for the families and the victims. But the reason for this murder was antisemitism.

BASH: Elie standby, because I want to go back to Danny, because all the counts have been read now. Danny, what are they?

FREEMAN: At this point, we have the information from inside the courtroom that Robert Bowers has been found guilty of all 63 federal charges that includes all 22 capital offenses, that also includes all of the hate crimes that he was charged with. And I should be clear, this does not just mean that he was convicted of the murders of the 11 worshippers who were killed that day.

But it's also a conviction for the other members of the three separate congregations who were injured. The other members of this congregation who were terrified, they were hiding, as Robert Bowers, as the prosecution said, and methodically hunted these Jewish people all throughout the synagogue. That's all encompassing within the 63 charges that Robert Bowers was just found guilty of.

And I want to note, Dana, if it's OK, and listen to the discussion that happened with the folks on your panel. Remember, this is not over yet. The majority of the people that we heard from take the stand over the past three weeks were eyewitnesses, people who were there inside that synagogue that day and survived, or we heard 911 calls from those who did not.

But we more -- very importantly we have not heard from, for example, the sisters of Cecil and David Rosenthal, who were killed in that synagogue that day. We have not heard from other family members who very much have been inside the courtroom and expect to testify as part of this larger trial. So, we're going to hear much more. You can expect from folks like them in this next phase, the death penalty phase.

But the other thing I will add is that, you know, I mentioned this earlier, we should expect to also hear more from the defense that offense is going to try and spare Robert Bowers' life in this case. You can expect that. And we have not heard from a single witness from the defense.

But the defense promised in their opening arguments that they would try to bring more context as to what motivated him to come into that synagogue. And really all we've heard so far is some of those smaller, shorter arguments that will maybe it was about immigrants and not Jewish people.

But as your panel said earlier, this verdict does confirm that at least in the eyes of the jury of his peers that Robert Bowers came to that synagogue and shot and killed those Jewish congregants because they were Jewish.

[12:10:00]

BASH: Absolutely, and that same jury. Danny, thank you so much. We will get back to you. That same jury as I bring back in Elie. And also, Caroline Polisi, an attorney, a former prosecutor will be hearing the additional evidence that Danny was just talking about as they deliberate whether or not to give this shooter the death penalty. Caroline, your thoughts?

CAROLINE POLISI, FEDERAL AND WHITE-COLLAR CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. As Danny indicated, we call those victim impact statements. They are often incredibly moving incredibly powerful testimony. As you noted this is a bifurcated trial. We know now that those 22 capital eligible charges have been, you know, the jury has found him guilty of those will move immediately into the sentencing phase now, where the sort of level of evidence allowed is different. As you noted, the defense will put on more evidence, what's known as, you know, aggravating factors versus mitigating factors. They will try to argue that although he has been found guilty of these charges, he should not be given the death penalty. The prosecution, obviously, will argue that the death penalty should be imposed. And we'll see, you know, more evidence in that regard. But it's just a resounding verdict and a resounding victory for the Department of Justice here today.

BASH: And Elie, you mentioned earlier, and it's important to underscore for people who might not remember unfortunately, because they had been -- there have been so many, not only mass shootings, but so many attacks against people because of their religion, because of the color of their skin since 2018. When this happened, this in particular, this was the single biggest, worst antisemitic attack in the history of the United States.

And it seems as though, the defense even though they're going to have to push back against their client getting the death penalty in the next phase of this trial in the phase that just wrapped up. It didn't seem like they were trying very hard to disabuse the jury about the fact that this individual was staunchly antisemitic, he just hated Jews.

HONIG: You can test that this was the individual who did the shooting or that he caused the deaths of these victims that was beyond obvious. The defense approach here was that he was not motivated exactly by antisemitism, but by a hatred for immigrants. He had actually gone online and been radicalized, essentially reading things about how Jews were helping immigrants come into the country, and how that was a danger that motivated him.

The prosecution, of course, pushed back hard against this. He went into a synagogue, he targeted Jews, he killed Jews. He said in many of his online postings that his goal was to kill Jews. And one of the interesting -- important aspects of this case is that he was motivated this individual by hatred for a group called HIAS, the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society, which has a long history dating back to World War II of helping millions of people, originally Jewish refugees from the Holocaust.

And now Jews and non-Jews alike, including refugees from Ukraine, and that hatred for that heroic group is part of what spurred this individual to commit this heinous act. The jury has now spoken. The jury has declared that the reason he did this was because of hatred for Jewish people because of antisemitism.

BASH: OK. Elie and Caroline standby. I want to bring in Jonathan Greenblatt. He is the head of the Anti-Defamation League, who has been -- his group, of course, has been monitoring antisemitic acts that have been on the rise. Jonathan, your reaction to this verdict?

JONATHAN GREENBLATT, CEO & NATIONAL DIRECTOR, ANTI-DEFAMATION LEAGUE (ADL): Well, Dana, I think this is indeed a solemn day. It's a sad day. It's a sad day for Pittsburgh. It's a sad day for the Jewish community. It's a sad day for our country. But I think it's also an important day. I mean, it is justice. That's delayed, but it is justice served. I think all of us at ADL and in the American Jewish community welcomed the jury's verdict.

It is a sign that as you said, this attack, the deadliest antisemitic massacre in American history, was the result of hate and conspiratorial thinking, and that it should have no place and that people who commit such crimes need to be accountable for their acts.

I have enormous respect and gratitude for the jurors for their service. I have enormous appreciation for the Department of Justice, the federal government for bringing this case. And really for the people of Pittsburgh, who stood with their Jewish neighbors, their Jewish brothers and sisters through some incredibly difficult torturous testimony through it's been grueling few years.

And again, I'm glad that justice has been served today. It won't bring back those people who were lost, but it is a sign that their sacrifices are being recognized and the culprit will spend the rest of his life in prison.

[12:15:00]

BASH: And Jonathan, I just want to tell you as we're speaking, we want to put back up the photos of the 11 individuals who were hunted down in their place of worship, while they were praying in many instances and murdered. And I also want to mention some -- I mentioned some of the reporting and the data that you have coming out of the ADL.

Just to remind our viewers in 2022, last year, you tabulated nearly 4000 antisemitic incidents throughout the U.S., a 36 percent increase from 2021. I don't want this question to come off as naive. But when you see a result, like we see in Pittsburgh, do you see any hope that there is a deterrent there?

GREENBLATT: Well, I just put those numbers in some context down. I mean, think about this. So, since that massacre in 2018, in 2019, the numbers hit an all-time high, that was eclipsed by another all-time high in 2021. And then again in 2022, the total number of antisemitic incidents, Dana, is more than 500 percent greater today than just a decade ago.

So, to your point, we have seen a tsunami of anti-Jewish hate. This act wasn't the first in that line. And since then, we've seen shootings in Poway, hostage taking in Pittsburgh, sorry, in Colleyville, Texas, assault on Jews in broad daylight in New York City. I mean, it goes on and on.

So, will this be a bit of a deterrent? I think it's too soon to tell. But when the systems work, when justice is served, that's a sign to would be antisemites, whether they are right wing extremists like this person or hardened antisemites from the left or whomever they may be, that there is no place for this kind of rhetoric in this kind of region or public square data.

That alone is a very important message, not just to that would be culprits, but to the Jewish community to know that the systems can work for us, and that indeed, we can be protected as well.

BASH: You know, as you're talking, I'm thinking about Colleyville, Texas, that attack. I was there, I went visited that synagogue and talk to a couple of the people who survived, it was a hostage standoff. But the person who held them hostage was ultimately killed by law enforcement. And in so many of these instances that is what happens.

So, we don't see a trial, like we saw in Pittsburgh. So, this is different in that case. Talk about that when it comes to the notion of the American society, the global society, seeing what justice looks like.

GREENBLATT: Well, it's just so crucial. I'm actually speaking to you from Paris, France. Today, I've been here meeting with Jewish community leaders. And here in France, they have dealt with stabbings and beheadings and other attacks on Jewish people. And very rarely do those culprits come to trial, sometimes they are killed by law enforcement. Sometimes the crimes are actually dismissed as not being antisemitic in nature, like pushing an elderly Holocaust survivor out a window. I could go on, they're really quite grotesque.

And the truth is, Dana, that the American justice system can indeed work, and this is an example. And again, as torturous as the testimony was as grueling as it was to the families and loved ones of the survivors and everyone in that community. I believe it was important to illustrate again, that our systems can work and people regardless of how they pray, that alone where they're from, or who they love should be protected in America from this kind of, hey, there's something else here.

Just to point out, you know, you were talking earlier in the segment, a fact that this man was motivated by these ugly conspiracy theories about Jews, trying to commit the, "great replace," trying to replace as it were white Americans with immigrants, Muslims, Mexicans, whatever madness he was spewing. And this is really crucial. The antisemitism itself is a conspiracy theory, Dana, about how the world works. I believe the Jews are at the center of plots and machinations and whatnot. There's no truth to it.

But it also shows us how dangerous it is when these ideas are laundered in politics, or in media or in the public conversation. So, the great replacement theory, whether again, it's defaming Jewish people, or the Jewish state, it's just wrong and it's got to stop.

BASH: Well said, Jonathan, thank you so much for coming on with us and putting what we're seeing in Pittsburgh in context. Appreciate it. I want to go back to Danny, who is there in Pittsburgh, with more information coming out of that courtroom. Danny?

FREEMAN: Yes, Dana. I just want to emphasize that there is definitely some relief from this community. I just spoke to one of the presidents of one of the congregations that was impacted just a moment ago and there was relief that this verdict has come down. But I just want to also emphasize that this next phase is going to be very difficult for this community. [12:20:00]

The death penalty, I should say prosecutors have been seeking the death penalty for a number of years. And throughout that time, different family members, different congregations have expressed different opinions about whether or not they feel that Bowers should ultimately be put to death.

And it's interesting that while there is relief about today's verdict, even during jury selection, then there was a lot of conversation about not guilt, but the next phase. The guilt was almost taken for granted by folks in that he wouldn't be found guilty. The defense was not arguing that he didn't do this. This day and this moment, still, of course, as was mentioned by previous guests, still monumental.

But I just want to illustrate that the next step in the healing and the perception of justice after this is going to be very hard from this community. We got a statement yesterday from one of the congregations that just talked about forgiveness and the difficulty of forgiveness because this shooter still has not asked for forgiveness. And the statement from the new light congregation said, the dead cannot forgive. So, I think that today is a monumental moment. But again, this is only going to be more challenging for this community as we move through this next phase.

BASH: The dead cannot forgive and the family members who are surviving, it's hard for them to forgive when the shooter is not asking for forgiveness. And we'll see what happens in the death penalty phase but doesn't appear to have very much remorse at this point.

Danny, fantastic reporting. Thank you to you and your team there in Pittsburgh. We're going to take a quick break. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BASH: And now the price of getting on the Republican debate stage. Who is and who is not willing to pay it. The Republican National Committee wants every candidate seeking the nomination to make a vow, back the eventual nominee no matter who it is and whatever the circumstance. Even if the nominee, let's say, ends up a convicted felon.

Asa Hutchinson says, voting for anyone convicted of serious crimes is not something he wants to do. The RNC says, too bad. The pledge debate is conjuring up a whole lot of memories from the 2016 campaign, including this one, eight years ago today.

Here to share their reporting, CNN's Manu Raju, CNN's Eva McKend, and Amy Walter of The Cook Political Report. I don't know why I didn't remember the music that went along with, is it right? I was thinking, do we add that? No, that was actually on his playlist. Let's look at what Asa Hutchinson is saying, he said, I am not going to vote for him if he's a convicted felon. They put a little rationality -- they need to put a little rationality to what is said in that oath or that pledge. And I'm just going to read you what the RNC is saying in return.

This is Richard Walters, a senior advisor there. Individuals who are seeking the Republican nomination for president are being asked to respect the decision of the Republican primary voters and support the eventual nominee they pick to be Biden. Candidates who are complaining about this to the press should seriously reconsider their priorities and whether they should even be running.

Eva, you've been out on the campaign trail. What do you think the debate really is going on inside these campaigns?

EVA MCKEND, CNN NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER: So, I'm not surprised by this response from the RNC, Trump both represents the base and the establishment of the Republican Party. So, this is why they are kicking Hutchinson for this, and saying, listen, maybe you shouldn't even be running.

I think the larger problem for Trump and the establishment that is going all in for him is that there does seem to be some Republicans in these early states who are uneasy about Trump and willing to look at other candidates.

I just got off the phone with a pastor in Iowa. And he was telling me that there are real concerns about the indictment that he's hearing, some of the folks that were supporting Trump are moving on to DeSantis. And that it isn't just, you know, all Republicans rallying around him. That is sort of the prevailing sentiment, but it's not the only one.

BASH: And, you know, as I bring you and Manu, I want to play some of the other candidates who are not Asa Hutchinson, what they've said about this pledge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I will take the pledge that the RNC puts in front of me just as seriously as Donald Trump did eight years ago, when he signed the pledge as rights previous went up there and begged him to do it. And then on the first debate stage, he didn't raise his hand to say, he would support the nominee.

GOV. DOUG BURGUM, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm going to support whoever the Republican candidate is going forward.

CAITLIN HUEY-BURNS, CBS NEWS, POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: If Donald Trump is the nominee for the Republican Party, would you support him?

SEN. TIM SCOTT, (R-SC): I plan on being the nominee.

BARI WEISS, FOUNDER & EDITOR, THE FREE PRESS (voiceover): Would you support Trump if you were the candidate? NIKKI HALEY, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE (voiceover): Yes.

ASA HUTCHINSON, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We've never had party loyalty oaths. We've never had those oaths. We did in 2016. They weren't effective. They weren't enforceable. I think we need to be real and best, not helpful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, I think Chris Christie's point is spot on there. Is Donald Trump going to sign this pledge. Is he going to commit to this pledge? Is he actually going to support a nominee who is Ron DeSantis, or anybody else? That's a big open question.

This is a debate that's happening all within the Republican Party. A real hope, among a lot of members that I speak to a lot of people on Capitol Hill, who hope this trial takes place after the election, because if it happens during the election, he gets convicted and becomes the nominee that will open up a whole other, canna worms (Ph) be incredibly problematic for them politically, a lot of them simply don't want to answer it.

Some that Mitch McConnell, I asked him this week, whether or not he would support him as a convicted felon. He didn't answer that question. We wouldn't answer that question. But others like Kevin Cramer, who's a senator from North Dakota. He's actually endorsing the North Dakota governor. But he said that if Donald Trump is a convicted felon and he was supportive because he said, I would support a convicted ham sandwich over Joe Biden.