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Special Counsel Jan. 6 Probe Heats Up; Sources: Special Counsel Gives Fake Electors Limited Immunity In Exchange For Testimony; Sources: Special Counsel Seeking Info On Trump Lawyers' Role In Fake Electors Plot; Biden, 2024 Republicans Attend Dueling Abortion Events; Poll: 61 Percent Disapprove Of Roe's Overturn; Pence Calls For 2024 GOP Rivals To Back 15-Week National Abortion Ban; Whistleblowers: DOJ Slowed Down Hunter Biden Probe. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired June 23, 2023 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

DANA BASH, CNN HOST, INSIDE POLITICS: Today on INSIDE POLITICS, exclusive new CNN reporting about an immunity deal for a fake pair of electors. New details that make clear that Trump's special counsels January 6 investigation is picking up speed.

Plus, Joe Biden hardly ever says it. Donald Trump wants to steer clear of it. Mike Pence wants to put every single Republican on record about it. One year after Dobbs erased Roe abortion is front and center in the 2024 campaign. And damning of true accusations against the Justice Department. IRS whistleblowers bullet point how they say the DOJ blocked the Hunter Biden investigation at every turn.

I am Dana Bash. Let's go behind the headlines at INSIDE POLITICS.

Up first, Jack Smith plays hardball. CNN new exclusive reporting breaking right now. It takes us inside the special counsel's investigation into the insurrection. The big takeaway from what CNN is learning. Federal investigators are getting important questions answered about the Trump plot to overturn the 2020 election, and in two cases using limited immunity deals to get that information.

CNN's Katelyn Polantz is one of our reporters who helped break this story. Katelyn, take it away.

KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: So, Dana, what's happening here is the special counsel's investigation that's looking at January 6, and particularly that plot of the Trump campaign to use fake electors in battleground states, they mean business and there is no time for delay at this point to get witnesses into the grand jury.

So, this goes back to last week. There were two witnesses, both from Nevada, both who were fake electors signing those false certificates to vote for Donald Trump, even though he lost the state of Nevada having those submitted to Congress. They went to the grand jury last week. And these two men previously had declined to answer questions and other investigations like in Congress, because they said they wanted to assert their Fifth Amendment right that they weren't going to be responding. But, when they showed up to the grand jury last week, Sara Murray, Zack Cohen and Kasie (Inaudible) at the courthouse, we have been able to confirm that these two men were told by prosecutors, nope. You have to testify, we're compelling you, you're going to be immunized. While you are in the grand jury, whatever you say there, we need your testimony about what happened with this fake elector plot.

And they spoke about people connected to the Trump campaign, including a lawyer for Donald Trump and also a prominent GOP official party person in Nevada. And so, that's what happened in that testimony. And that comes, Dana, at the same time. There was a lot of grand jury activity around the fake electors.

There have been many other witnesses over the past two weeks, including one just yesterday, a man named G. Michael Brown, he was a Trump campaign official who personally was delivering the fake elector votes for Donald Trump to Congress, and doing that for the entire campaign or for the part of the campaign he was in charge of. He too previously was not speaking to investigators.

But now the special counsel's office is locking down this information. They're getting these people into the grand jury. They're not giving anyone delays. And so, it's a lot of activity that taken together signals that there may be a charging decision coming soon. Dana?

BASH: Absolutely, fascinating reporting. Thank you so much for that, Katelyn. And here with me to share their insights and reporting, CNN's Paula Reid, senior legal affairs correspondent, and former justice department lawyer, Carrie Cordero, CNN anchor and senior legal analyst, Laura Coates. Thank you so much one and all.

Paula, I'll start with you, because you've done a lot of reporting on this as well. Your takeaway, given just kind of the big picture of. We saw the indictment on one part of Jack Smith's investigation, Donald Trump and the classified documents. This is a whole another realm that we're talking about.

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: It is that other investigation and I've previously been told by a source close to the special counsel that the January 6 probe would be on a longer timeline as compared to the investigation into possible mishandling of classified documents. And it does appear that they are reaching a charging decision.

[12:05:00]

Now of course, one of the big questions a lot of people have is will former President Trump be charged? And in this new reporting, look, it's still unclear if he is a target of this investigation. But we know from the great reporting from our team that witnesses are being asked about former President Trump, including of course former Vice President Mike Pence has been asked about Trump's actions.

And we know multiple witnesses have been asked about Trump's actions in the days before January 6, on January 6, and after January 6. But this is a much more-broad investigation with far more players, potential targets, and witnesses, which is why it's taking longer, but still whether Trump will be charged is an outstanding question. But he is absolutely a focus for the grand jury.

BASH: What your former federal prosecutor had on, which I know you've really never taken off, Laura, let's honest, except when you're wearing your mom hat, actually it probably works well as a mom. (crosstalk). Exactly. Looking at this reporting that our colleagues have, what does it tell you knowing what you know about how federal investigations work?

Laura Coates: Well, the fact that there is immunity is on the table, says to me that they are hoping to get information from only these people may had to use that immunity route as the only way to do so. Normally, you'd be able to get other information. You have corroboration, you've got by precedent credibility.

But for you to go to the extent of asking for immunity, it means you've made the decision not to prosecute this person, this valuable source of information, you can't get it someplace else, and you had to go through the rigmarole to entice this person to do so.

It normally means there's an eye towards a bigger player. We talked about the bigger fish in the pond you're hoping to get. If this person is the only way to get the information, it might mean that you've reached a bit of a dead end at your investigation, and you had to essentially fold. It's never a thing as a prosecutor, you actually want to give immunity because it means that somebody who is otherwise accountable cannot be held to account.

BASH: Let me just put on the screen. The three individuals, the special counsel is definitely interested in members of the then Trump legal team, Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, Jeffrey Clark. Then and who's a legal ally, I should say. The person not on that screen. And the person we don't really know very many details about is Donald Trump. And Paula talked a little bit about that.

The question is, we saw the indictment on classified documents that was obviously very much about Trump and Trump's actions. It is a lot less clear how central the former president himself is on January 6?

CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL & NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Sure. I think the key here from the Justice Department's perspective and the investigative timeline is that they're looking to see, are they putting together a conspiracy case? Was there a conspiracy to undermine the outcome of the election? And then who are all the different people who were potentially involved in that conspiracy. And the individuals that you just put up on the screen are key in terms of that.

So, we've got the low-level people who are the electors, who are the individuals that now it sounds like they've offered immunity to. Then at the very highest level, you have the former Trump, but then there's these key people, these lawyers who were advising the former president, who, based on all of the reporting that we've seen so far, were extensively and their public engagement during that time were extensively involved in this particular activity. They are also the people who have a lot to lose in terms of their livelihood and their professional reputations, and if they're prosecuted much more, and they are individuals who have key information. But I think the important part is the prosecutors' ability to put together this story of a conspiracy and whether they can prove that case.

REID: And one of the people we've been watching really closely is of course, Rudy Giuliani, because everyone in the country saw what a central player he was, right? He was out front in terms of what was going on, to try to overturn the election. And we know from our reporting, that he and his attorney received a subpoena from the Justice Department in November before Jack Smith took this case over.

But once Jack Smith took over this case, we know that Rudy Giuliani hadn't heard a peep for another six months. If I was the central right, to this case, and hadn't heard a thing from the special counsel, I wouldn't obviously been very well at night.

BASH: Is that usually just for people who aren't lawyers out there, including me. You don't hear a lot, it means that you're likely to target?

REID: Yes. Potentially a target, and they were looking for information for him, right. He wasn't called to come in before the grand jury for again, like about over six months. It's unclear what his status is now, but that's the one we're really watching to see if he is a potential target here.

BAHS: I just want to quickly read a little bit more about CNN's new reporting that we're bringing to you right now. Prosecutors have also continued to focus on potential financial crimes and money laundering after Trump raised millions of dollars off false claims the election was stolen. One former Trump campaign official who testified this month before the grand jury was asked about specific campaign ads and messaging produced as part of those fundraising activities. That's according to a source familiar with the matter. That's a whole different potential set of legal problems is campaign finance.

[12:10:00]

COATES: This speaks the complexity of this. I mean when you talk about declassified documents case coming out first as an indictment speaks to the through line you can draw. If you had documents, you knew that return them and did not otherwise. This case has so many different layers. It involves different states, different electors, different schemes potentially. It's also what finding was.

We're looking at as well to figure out how this plays into her case, but has some coordination or conversation about these different events. But it just talks to you about the complexity of even campaign finance now being a part of it.

BASH: Three brilliant legal minds at one table. Thank you all very much.

COATES: At Dana Bash's table.

BASH: Well, not again, not a lawyer, but we all kind of played on my TV. It has been a year since the Supreme Court overturned Roe vs. Wade and abortion looms larger than ever, as a campaign issue on both sides of the debate. Up next. Who's saying what.

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BASH: Today abortion is center stage on both sides of the 2024 campaign. On the right, (Inaudible) Republican candidates are at the Washington Hilton for the Faith and Freedom forum the coalition's annual conference. Just a mile from there, President Biden will meet with reproductive rights groups at the Mayflower Hotel this afternoon.

Rolling out new endorsements and marking this one-year anniversary of the Supreme Court ruling that overturn Roe vs. Wade. CNN's Arlette Saenz is live at the White House. Arlette, it's been an issue that has been something that maybe has been difficult for this president to deal with on a personal level, but on a political level, the White House and the Biden campaign thinks it's a winner.

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Dana. And I'll tell you in almost all of my conversations that I have with campaign advisors, they really stress how central abortion rights will be heading into 2024. You saw that strategy on display when they rolled out that campaign, arguing that MAGA Republicans are trying to take away women's freedoms and it extends to their full court press that they're making this week around the Dobbs anniversary.

Later this evening, the president and vice president will have a rally, the troops kind of moment. When they gather with reproductive rights activists, the White House on the official sides rolling out some executive orders to try to strengthen access to contraception.

And also, if you take a look at Vice President Harris's speech tomorrow. She is traveling down to Charlotte, North Carolina. The venue for that speech speaks a bit more to their strategy. North Carolina is a state that is home to a 12-week abortion ban, which Republican legislators pushed through despite a Democratic governor vetoing it.

And advisors that I've talked to have really stressed that they feel they could flip North Carolina back to the Democratic column because they believe abortion will be an animating issue there. They think it'll be a motivating issue across the country, really trying to replicate what they saw with how abortion helped drive out voters during the midterm elections. They're hoping they can do that again in 2024.

BASH: So interesting. What the strategy is so often illuminated by where candidates and politicians go. Thanks for that reporting, Arlette. And Mike Pence is trying to carve a line in the 2024 GOP's hand. The former vice president is calling on his fellow Republican presidential candidates to support a 15-week national abortion ban. Pence addressed the annual Faith and Freedom conference earlier today.

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MIKE PENCE, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Now, some you'll hear from at this very podium will say that the Supreme Court returned to the issue of abortion only to the states, that nothing should be done at the federal level. Others will say that continuing the fight to life could produce state legislation that's too harsh. Some have even gone on to blame the overturning of Roe vs. Wade for election losses in 2022.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Let's bring in CNN's Gloria Borger, Jackie Kucinich of The Boston Globe, and Seung Min Kim of the Associated Press. Nice to see you all. Let's start off this conversation with the latest polling that actually came out, I believe today from NBC News on abortion.

What's striking is about how much this number just doesn't change. The overall number, 61 percent of Americans disapprove of the Supreme Court did adopt overturning Roe v. Wade. And then let's look into the numbers a little bit. Suburban women a very key voting bloc as we know 66 percent, independence 60 percent, and then down to Republicans 31 percent, which by the way, is not nothing, 31 percent say that they disagree.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: No, it's consistent and it's difficult for Republicans. If you look at women 18 to 49 in that same poll, it's 80 percent. So, what this tells you is that this is an intensity issue for voters. Now, in many of the same ways, I think that guns were are an intensity issue for lots of Republican voters, you know, Second Amendment, et cetera, et cetera.

I think this may work that way. And I see that Mike Pence was saying, well, it wasn't abortion. What he likes to say that the losses in the midterms were due to what he calls a common denominator. And that common denominator is someone who likes to call his former running mate, Donald Trump, although he doesn't name him in that context, but he refuses to say that the issue of abortion had anything to do it.

BASH: Yes, he pushes back on it. But the data disproves that in a lot, not all of the cases and all of the races, but in a lot of them.

JACKIE KUCINICH, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, THE BOSTON GLOBE: It will remain to be seen whether his -- he doesn't really have the clout, honestly, to pressure other members of the Republican field to take this kind of commitment. We'll have to see how the right reacts because Mike Pence has always been here, let's be real, like this is Mike Pence. And whether or not, you know, whatever happened was Roe v. Wade. Whatever happened threats Republican field. This is where Pence has always been on this issue.

[12:20:00]

Now whether we see the other in the Republican field feel pressured by the right to do that, that's fine him double downing on this issue. This is about the Republican primary and but, if he won the Republican primary, this is where he would be in a general fair.

BASH: But he also has not been his own candidate for president ever. And he is trying to make headway and trying to pressure people particularly in Iowa, right, where we have a lot of evangelicals, and then the man who he calls his former running mate, Donald Trump.

We have some great new reporting from Alayna Treene and Kristen Holmes about where the former president's head is. And I'll just read part of it. Sources described Trump's current refusal to publicly back a national band is being driven by his own political instincts and a desire to avoid a political landmine. Trump will do and say whatever he needs to do to win the nomination. He doesn't think coming out for a federal ban is a good idea politically.

SEUNG MIN KIM, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, ASSOCIATED PRESS: You do see there where Trump is actually thinking strategically. I know sometimes a lot of his actions and his sayings are completely thought out. But there he really is thinking towards the journal because he has seen the same numbers that we have. He has seen the midterm election results. He has seen the enthusiasm of this issue, not among -- not just among Democrats, but how it can tip those swing voters that he would need to win back.

Should he be the general election candidate and win back the presidency in 2024, mushy in this primary election, right? In the primary phase of this election, right now, when he's asked over and over, would he support a national ban?

Tim Scott, even though he is also personally very conservative, very, you know, very Christian, also trying to reach out to the same evangelical voters. He's also been pretty wishy washy on the -- on a national abortion ban. And I think that for most of the candidates, it would be a really difficult issue to pivot from a primary to a general and I think that's what Trump is trying to avoid.

GLORIA: Well, what he does is on the one hand, he says, I take credit for the Supreme Court because (crosstalk) yes, Donald Trump. If it weren't for my Supreme Court, this wouldn't have happened. And then on the flip side of that, he won't go where Mike Pence has gone, because he is thinking strategically and understands that with these women voters, the suburban voters, even a third of Republicans, it's not popular.

KUCINICH: And it's one of the areas that Pence has actually been willing to go after Trump on. Not there. You had the subtle shade saying, some said that blame the midterm elections and announcements. Pence actually did say that the former president's name in regards to that. So, if there's a differentiation there. But it is one of the areas that Pence has been willing to come at his former boss and that that is noteworthy.

BASH: All right. Everybody standby. Up next. We're going to talk about a whistleblower who accuses the Biden Justice Department of hamstringing its own Hunter Biden probe, his alleged proof, is next.

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BASH: Did Hunter Biden get off easy? Republican say a federal plea deal threatened the president's son, with treated the president son I should say with kid gloves. Now they're amplifying a far more serious accusation that the Justice Department obstructed its own investigation.

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REP. JIM JORDAN, (R-OH): This attorney Weiss asked for special counsel status. And Garland, Justice Department says no, that like it feels special counsel is not warranted here. When is it?

REP. JASON SMITH, (R-MO): They said that there was not independence, and the Justice Department with a president of the United States needs to respond to these assertions, these allegations.

REP. JAMES COMER, (R-KY): The Justice Department simply has turned a blind eye to Hunter Biden. They were told to stand down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: The charge comes out of newly released testimony from two IRS whistleblowers one, Gary Shapley, a 14-year IRS veteran told the House committee that Maine justice slow walked the Biden probe at every turn. Here at the table to talk about that is CNN senior justice correspondent Evan Perez, and CNN legal analyst Carrie Cordero.

So, Evan, can you please put this in context? And as you do, I just want to put up on the screen for our viewers what the deal was from the from the U.S. Attorney in Delaware and Hunter Biden misdemeanor tax crimes avoids prosecution on gun charges. And then with his allegation from the IRS, the alleged IRS recommendation, I should say, felony tax evasion and filing false tax returns.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right. Well, so the agents actually have paperwork. They have evidence, you know, indicating that the IRS and they had the support of the prosecutors who were doing the case to bring 11 counts, including felonies for federal tax evasion, filing false tax returns going back to 2014.

In the end, what they arrived at is two misdemeanor counts on for failing to file taxes for 2017 and 2018. And so, the issue here for these agents are trying to draw attention to is that they say that they were things that were being done that blocked them from pursuing all avenues in this investigation.

They say that David Weiss, the Trump appointee who ran this case, he was not the final decider despite what you've heard. And now the Justice Department says that's not true that -- and by the way David Weiss himself in a letter to Congress says, that's not true, that he was the final decider.