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McCarthy: Don't Know If Trump Is "Strongest" Candidate For GOP; CNN Obtains Tape Of Trump Talking Classified Documents; Mercenary Leader Apparently In Belarus; Putin Makes Show Of Strength After Mutiny; Today: Biden, Obama Have Lunch At White House. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired June 27, 2023 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[12:30:00]

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're going to lose. I wasn't anywhere near Washington that day. I have nothing to do with what happened that day. Obviously, I didn't enjoy seeing, you know, what would happen. But we've got to go forward on this stuff. We cannot be looking backwards and be mired in the past.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And you might have noticed, Dana, that Trump's name was nowhere in there, and actually later on, DeSantis said at one point that he agreed with Trump on NATO. So again, walking a fine line there.

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: A fine line, especially given the fact that I believe he said that he would pardon those responsible for January 6th. I mean, quite different there.

Kristen, I have to ask about the House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, because he threw some cold water on the idea that Donald Trump is the best candidate to beat President Biden. I know you've been talking to your sources and you have some new reporting on the way team Trump is reacting.

HOLMES: That's right, Dana. They are outraged. Advisers and allies have been calling me all morning about these remarks. I want to play them for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), HOUSE SPEAKER: Can Trump beat Biden? Yes, he can beat Biden.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Makes it complicated if he's got all these trials and all this stuff overhanging --

MCCARTHY: It makes it complicated. Also helps him when -- but the question is, is he the strongest to win the election? I don't know that answer. (END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Now these advisers and these allies believe that the former president helped win the speakership for Kevin McCarthy. They are very angry about this. In the past, they have brushed off the idea that McCarthy has not endorsed Trump in 2024, saying that he has a lot of people he has to please as speaker and even before that in order to be speaker.

But this really crossed a line for so many of these allies, advisers who think that, again, Trump helped carried him to that speakership and that McCarthy owes him.

BASH: Kristen, thank you so much for that great reporting.

Joining me now to discuss that and more is Republican Congressman from Tennessee, Tim Burchett. Thank you so much for for coming on. I first want to ask you about what you just heard from the House Speaker saying he didn't know if Donald Trump was the strongest candidate for your party. Are you surprised to hear the Speaker raise any doubts about the former president and his ability to be the president again if he's the nominee?

REP. TIM BURCHETT (R-TN), FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE: No, I've been in those situations. You're thinking about something else and you're asked a totally different question. And so, I still think Kevin McCarthy is firmly in the Trump camp and he knows that President Trump helped him get where he is. And I suspect -- and one thing you can say about Kevin McCarthy is he's loyal to a fault.

And these advisers, they're always just trying to stir something up anyway, so they can justify their humongous paychecks, which most of them are overpaid. And so, you know, I've been seen that many times, so I just don't put a whole lot of faith in that. I think that's -- tomorrow it'll be another, as I used to say when I was mayor in Knox County, there's going to be another rec, unfortunately, on the interstate tomorrow, and we'll be off the headlines.

BASH: All right. I want to turn to the exclusive audio CNN obtained of a conversation the former president had in 2021 regarding sensitive documents. Those that are at the center of his indictment. Take a listen.

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DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I was just thinking, because we were talking about it. And, you know, he said, "he wanted to attack Iran, and what?" These are the papers.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You did.

TRUMP: This was done by the military and given to me. I think we can probably, right?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't know, we'll have to see. Yes, we'll have to try to -- TRUMP: Declassify it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- figure out -- yes.

TRUMP: See as president I could have declassified it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

TRUMP: Now I can't, you know, but this is still a secret.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. Now we have a problem.

TRUMP: Isn't that interesting?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Congressman, he is of course, innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. But I want to ask you about politics and electability. Do you think someone who admits to showing classified information to another person who should not be seeing it, is a person who should be elected to be commander-in-chief again?

BURCHETT: Well, I think it's just Trump being Trump. Honestly, I mean, he is just showing his New York bravado there, obviously for a female counterpart. I couldn't see who it was, but I don't put a lot of faith in all that. I -- the odd thing about it is, the more people turn up the heat on Trump, the more his numbers go up. It's almost indescribable.

You know, and I get hit. I see my numbers plummet, and so Trump's just -- it's just the -- it's Bizarro World. And Trump is, obviously, the one that always seems to benefit from it, but it's almost uncanny. Every time he gets hit with something, you know, I see new polling numbers and he just keeps going up.

I think it just shows that the public could just, at least the conservative base, just doesn't trust the media and doesn't trust Washington, which is unfortunate.

[12:35:01]

BASH: OK, so that's your political take. Let's talk about the legal take particularly since -- I know you're a member of Congress, you understand the importance of classified information, how it should be handled. This is a former president who is admitting that he has a piece of paper that is classified that he cannot declassify because he's a former president and basically saying he shouldn't be showing it. Do you think that's OK?

BURCHETT: No, of course not. But all I heard him saying there was that somebody was -- the military who's wanting to go to war with somebody else. And so, you know, there's not a lot of clarification there. And I'm just playing the attorney here. I'm not an attorney. I actually have worked for a living. So I was -- I've never been an attorney. I passed a lot of laws, but I'd usually have to ask a lot of attorneys to find out exactly the details of what we just passed. So, you know, again, I don't put a lot of faith in all that, that'll come out. That's a one little snippet out of a --

BASH: Yes.

BURCHETT: -- big timeline, but yes. Does it bother me that documents? I think we need to refigure this whole deal, ma'am. I think classified documents ought to have a handler, a specific handler. And when that person is finished viewing those documents, that they stay with that handler who has a very -- because that's the way Congress is treated.

BASH: Yes.

BURCHETT: We can't walk out with it.

BASH: Sure. Yes.

BURCHETT: You know, and so, it's just ridiculous, you know? And, of course, classified briefings. When I was first elected, I remember I turned to an old Democrat who was a friend of mine and I said, let me get this straight. After we get this classified briefing, I can probably catch most of this on CNN in about 30 minutes.

And he said, no, Tim, it'll actually --

BASH: Yes.

BURCHETT: -- be about 15 minutes.

BASH: Well, I know, and I've heard you say that. I believe that what you get and what the President gets might be a slightly different. But you told my colleague, Manu Raju, that if the former president is convicted, you do not think he should be president. Do you still feel that way?

BURCHETT: Yes, ma'am. I think if he's convicted in a court of law -- I mean, but what's he going to be convicted of? If he's convicted of a -- if it's like Hunter Biden, where they just give him a slap on the wrist and send him on his way, well, I don't know. I don't know what he's going to be convicted of. You know, it's under the espionage section of the code, but it doesn't have anything to do with espionage, actually. It's not turning over documents to a -- to an enemy.

BASH: Well, I should just say, unfortunately, we're out of time, that the Espionage Act doesn't --

BURCHETT: I'm sorry.

BASH: -- merely say that you have to turn it over. There are other portions of the Espionage Act. We can talk about that in much more.

BURCHETT: Yes, ma'am. BASH: I'd love to have you back on. I appreciate your time. Thank you so much, sir.

BURCHETT: Thank you, ma'am. It's been a great pleasure.

BASH: And Vladimir Putin wants to make sure he's seen and heard, and we finally get an answer to where in the world is the Yevgeny Prigozhin. The latest out of Moscow next.

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[12:42:34]

BASH: Today, we're getting an answer to an international mystery. The mercenary who led and then abandoned a mutiny is in Belarus, so says that country's president. Vladimir Putin, well, he's everywhere. After a weekend of rumors and questions about Mr. Putin, he's draping himself in the trappings of Russian power to send a message that he is very much in control.

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VLADIMIR PUTIN, RUSSIAN PRESIDENT (through translation): Real defenders of the motherland. You saved our people, our homeland virtually. You stopped a civil war. In actual fact, you stopped a civil war.

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BASH: CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is in Kyiv now. So Nick, I want to read to our viewers the lead of your new piece. It says, "Seismic shifts in Moscow must surely spell similar earthquakes along the front lines in Ukraine". So Nick, take us inside the politics of the Kremlin right now.

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, clearly, Vladimir Putin standing around today at every opportunity he could find. After two and a half days of being staggeringly absent as the armed rebellion against him appeared to find a resolution negotiated by a man he often uses as a subordinate, Alexander Lukashenko of Belarus.

Putin today at the Kremlin, standing in front of military officers, in front of the Minister of Defense whose fate this has all been about. He's still in place as is Putin. And then also with soldiers too, in a later audience where he lengthily talks about how, in fact, the Wagner group that had turned against him had, in fact, over the last year, the tune of over $1 billion been financed by the Russian state, a bizarre self-own, and a possibly a bid to try and make its head.

Yevgeny Prigozhin look like a corrupt profiteer. But really Putin now very late in the game, coming forwards and offering his narrative, oddly telling Russian land forces that it was their intervention, their unity, their bravery that saved the Russian state. When in truth on Saturday as Wagner tanks were marching on Moscow, there were very few land forces to be seen aviation attacking them, but a remarkably unimpeded advance by Wagner.

At the same time, a very florid and colorful speech from Alexander Lukashenko, who's cast himself as the intermediary who intervened on Saturday. It seems over a number of phone calls, one of which he said Yevgeny Prigozhin used 10 times more expletives than normal words when talking to him, managed to persuade Prigozhin that bloodshed would lead to his demise and essentially that it was better for him if he moved to Belarus and brought his forces there as well.

[12:45:08]

Extraordinary to hear Lukashenko in this role. It makes Putin look weak yet again. Does this change the front lines yet? We're seeing continued Ukrainian progress, but no seismic breakthrough yet. That could still come. Maybe Kyiv's waiting to watch the dust settle and see what really this has done to Putin and his forces. Dana?

BASH: Nick Paton Walsh, thank you for your extraordinary reporting, making it all make sense to those of us around the world. Appreciate it.

And is President Trump's new abortion stance strong enough for the anti-abortion wing of the GOP? We're going to ask an influential Iowa conservative next.

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[12:50:21]

BASH: Earlier in the program, we went to New Hampshire. Now it's time for a look at another early voting state, and that is Iowa, which has the first in the nation caucus -- caucuses, I should say, for Republicans as they pick their party's presidential nominee.

And here with me is Bob Vander Plaats, he is the president and CEO of the conservative Christian group, The Family Leader. Also a very influential voice for Republicans hoping to win over Iowa's evangelical voters. Thank you so much for joining me, sir.

You have been very critical of the former president and his messaging on the issue of abortion in the past. I want our viewers to listen to what he told the crowd of evangelical voters here in Washington over the weekend.

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TRUMP: The greatest progress for pro-life is now being made in the states where everyone wanted to be. That's one. One of the reasons they wanted Roe v. Wade terminated is to bring it back into the states. However, there, of course, remains a vital role for the federal government in protecting unborn life.

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BASH: A vital role for the federal government. Is that enough for caucus-goers in Iowa, for whom abortion is a top issue? BOB VANDER PLAATS, PRESIDENT & CEO, THE FAMILY LEADER: Well, it's good news for the former president because he is coming our way on the life issue. He has a lot of things that he can be proud of. He appointed the three justices that overturned Roe v. Wade.

And when I was critical of him, Dana, it's when he threw the pro-life community under the bus after the midterm election when he told Kaitlan Collins on the CNN Town Hall that he is kind of willing to make a deal on the sanctity of human life. But now what he's saying when he said the faith and freedom conference over the weekend, there's a vital role for the federal government.

We should not run away from this issue. Those are the things that the caucus-goers and the pro-life community are going to want to hear.

BASH: It is the time of year when presidential candidates are coming your way. They're going to Iowa, you're meeting with many of them. Can you take us behind the scenes into the room and some of the conversations that you're having? What do you want to hear from these candidates besides what you just mentioned, abortion? And who has impressed you so far?

PLAATS: Well, honestly, a lot of them have impressed me. I mean, we have a very deep bench and that's why I think it is going to be an interesting race to see if these caucus-goers, if these primary voters want to stay with the former president, or if they want to turn the page and look at somebody different.

When I'm meeting with them in my office, Dana, or at our home or wherever it might be, we're looking for character, which is usually summed up by a consistency of convictions. We're looking at competency, are they prepared to be the president?

And we're really looking at a thing we call chemistry, kind of their Esther moment, is that for such a time as this, that they should be called to be president of the United States. So we're looking at really those three things as we make up our mind who we want to support.

BASH: You just said, again, as you've said before, that it's time to turn the page on the former president. You don't think that he is electable in a general election. In the primary in caucus electorate, which is the ball game in the short term, none of Donald Trump's challengers appear to be gaining on him. So how do you square that?

PLAATS: Well, I think the former president's highest hurdle is going to be electability. Listen, there's a lot of reasons again to applaud him, whether it be moving the embassy to Jerusalem, the economy, standing up for the sanctity of human life, appointing justices. But 2024 is not 2016.

And my biggest concern is we need to win in 2024. And so we need to find a candidate who can win. I think that's the former president's highest hurdle, and it's going to be as challengers, that's going to be the case they need to make in order to beat the former president and say the primary. So that's why I think Iowa's exceptionally wide open right now, Dana. But I do believe that the former president has a self-inflicted ceiling of 20 to 30 percent, which opens it up for another candidate to potentially win the Iowa caucuses.

BASH: Well, I think he only won with like 23 percent in the caucuses back in 2016 when there's a big field. That makes it a lot easier for him to win with a lower ceiling.

Before I let you go, you were having a big event there in Iowa, the Family Leadership Summit, that's on July 14th. So far, the only candidates confirmed to attend, I believe -- correct us if we're wrong -- Ron DeSantis, Mike Pence and Vivek Ramaswamy. You invited the former president. Do you think he's going to come?

PLAATS: Well, it's growing speculation that he is going to come, especially after his appearance at the Faith and Freedom over the weekend. I think he now wants to come to the Leadership Summit, so we'll see if he does.

[12:55:10]

I think it'd be a mistake if he didn't. But in addition to the three that you mentioned, Nikki Haley will be there. Tim Scott will be there.

BASH: OK.

PLAATS: Governor Hutchinson will be there. So we have six confirmed. We're still waiting on the former president to see if he'll be the number seven.

BASH: All right. Well, let us know when you hear from him. Will you?

PLAATS: Will do.

BASH: OK. Thank you so much. Appreciate your time. Good to see you.

PLAATS: Thank you, Dana.

BASH: And just in, President Obama is heading back to the White House. We'll give you details next.

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BASH: President Biden is hosting President Obama for lunch today. We're told they're going to discuss boosting Democratic enthusiasm for 2024.

"CNN News Central" starts right now.