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Biden Tries To Hold NATO Family Together; NATO Summit A Looming Test For Biden; Biden: No Consensus On Bringing Ukraine Into NATO; DeSantis: Media Doesn't Want Me To Be Nominee; Club For Growth Linked Group Hits Trump's Electability; CNN: House Freedom Caucus Split Over Tactics & Trump. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired July 10, 2023 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

DANA BASH, CNN HOST, INSIDE POLITICS: Today on Inside Politics, pomp and power. The president of the United States is abroad for a big NATO summit, but an urgent conversation on if and how quickly to bring Ukraine inside the alliance threatens to fracture unity across Europe.

Plus, trouble since he walked in. Ron DeSantis falls back on blaming a familiar culprit to explain why his campaign stumbled off the blocks the media, and it might be the ugliest headline of the Biden presidency. A New York Times column ignites a conversation about the Biden family and the cruelty of counting to six versus seven.

I'm Dana Bash. Let's go behind the headlines at Inside Politics.

Up first, geopolitics. The president tries to hold the NATO family together. Joe Biden is wheels up right now to Lithuania. He will land to a new uncertainty about Ukraine's future and if it's with NATO. And he will confront rare public fractures among allies over a Biden decision to send cluster munitions to Ukraine's front lines.

But this morning, the president took pains to project that everything is a, OK, in the stop to number 10 Downing Street with the British prime minister.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, 46TH U.S. PRESIDENT: Couldn't be meeting with a closer friend and a greater ally. We've got lots to talk about our relationship is rock-solid. (Inaudible) and I look forward to our discussion.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: CNN is covering both ends of this trip. And we're going to start in Vilnius, Lithuania where Air Force One is headed right now. Natasha Bertrand is there. Natasha, what do we expect?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: Well, this is a very high stakes meeting. Obviously, Dana, this is a meeting where essentially Ukraine's fate and NATO could be decided. And there are multiple different opinions on this. There is no unanimity in NATO right now as to what Ukraine's membership should actually look like, how fast it should happen. And of course, whether the war with Russia needs to end before Ukraine can actually be admitted into NATO.

Now, the president who is coming here this evening. He has said just this weekend, that he does not believe that Ukraine right now should actually be in NATO. It is not the right time, especially because if it wasn't NATO, then of course, NATO is committed to defending every inch of its territory, would essentially mean American boots on the ground inside Ukraine, if they were to join NATO right now.

But that's not necessarily what President Zelenskyy is even looking for. He is more looking for a clear signal that once peace is achieved, then the United States will back its membership in NATO. They want something to show Vladimir Putin, essentially that NATO stands behind Ukraine. And that even if they don't join, right at this moment, there is a path for them to do so.

Of course, the timing of this is also going to be very key. Will Ukraine be able to have an expedited membership into NATO? Or will have to go through the more traditional path, which could lengthen the process out by months, if not years? All of these things are going to be discussed here tomorrow. It is a really key moment that the Ukrainians are really looking forward to. Dana?

BASH: Natasha, thank you for that. It looks like a beautiful day where you are in Vilnius. And let's go to London, 10 Downing and that's where CNN's Nic Robertson is. Nic, what do we know about what happened inside that meeting between the American and British leaders today?

Nic Robertson: Well, one of the things we do know is that cluster munitions came up. I think it was always going to -- going into the meeting. Questions was shattered at the British prime minister. Are you going to talk about cluster munitions and the prime minister have released a press statement over the weekend saying, yes, the U.K. is a signature to their prohibition of the use of cluster munitions.

Many countries are signed up to it, that not to produce them, not to provide them for other countries and to dissuade others from using them. And the prime minister spokesman after the meeting said, yes, the prime minister did dissuade his partner, President Biden. This is the language they use dissuade from using cluster munitions. But then the spokesman went on to say, look, we understand that this was a difficult decision for President Biden.

So, I don't think we're seeing a huge rift over the issue in the room between the two men. And I do think that, you know, that there's an effort here to sort of make the NATO alliance look as strong in as many places as possible. And when President Biden went in for a meeting, he was talking about having a rock-solid relationship, couldn't find a better partner, couldn't find a better strategic ally at this time, plenty to talk about.

[12:05:00]

They also talked about the Indo-Pacific region. They talked about green energy. They talked about AI technologies. So, there was a lot that was covered, but I think absolutely central the really big questions in the room are over Ukraine and its accession to NATO. And they're fairly well aligned. But there are differences. Britain, of course really wants to push ahead more perhaps than then President Biden does.

BASH: So interesting. Thank you so much for that report. Nic Robertson in London. And here to share their insights and reporting CNN's Manu Raju and CNN's Kylie Atwood. Happy Monday to both of you. Let's start by playing with Joe Biden, the President of the United States said to our colleague Fareed Zakaria on Sunday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PRES. BIDEN: I don't think there is unanimity in NATO about whether or not to bring Ukraine into the NATO family now, at this moment in the middle of a war. If the war is going on, then we're all in war. You know, we're at war with Russia, if that were the case.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Kylie, that is the basic thrust of it. It is that because of Article 5 in NATO, if Ukraine becomes part of NATO, it means all of the countries are then at war with Russia. Is that the major reason why there seems to be as the president said, unanimity, and holding off on allowing Ukraine to come into NATO or is it more than that?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: That's the main reason, but there is more than that. And he, in that interview, talked about Ukraine also needing to take steps on other benchmarks that they would have to meet to join NATO, like democratization and, you know, corruption and government those things.

So, I think, front and center is the issue that the United States doesn't want to be in a war with Russia right now, and neither do these other NATO countries. But the key here is that there's division within the NATO alliance, about how to thread this needle, and how to give Ukraine the assurances that it needs and really, you know, make more commitments that will bring it closer to joining NATO than it was before this war.

And that's why we have heard so aggressively from Ukraine saying, we really need a clear pathway here. The president did say that there's a need to lay out a rational path for Ukraine, you know, coming into NATO. And so, we're waiting to see is can the United States and all the NATO allies come up with some language that makes everyone happy here? Or are there fractures in the alliance that are demonstrated at this summit?

BASH: And Manu, I want to play what the Republican House chair of the House Foreign Relations Committee said to Jake Tapper over the weekend?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL, (R-TX): I think it should be incremental, Jake. I think first, they have to win the counter offensive. Secondly, I have a ceasefire, then negotiate a peace settlement. We cannot admit Ukraine into NATO immediately that would put us at war with Russia under Article 5 of the United Nations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: And first of all, its foreign affairs. I covered that they have long enough to know the House's Foreign Affairs, the Senate as foreign relations. But on the substance of what he said, it is interesting to see not just largely at least publicly unanimity among NATO members about the immediacy that Ukraine shouldn't be allowed immediately into NATO, but that, so maybe even more surprising is that you have support from Republicans.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And you are seeing some report from Republicans on the decision by the president to transfer these munitions to Ukraine, even as McCaul voiced his support for that idea, other prominent Republicans are behind that. Even as Biden is facing pushback among his left folks and more progressive members concerned about that decision.

In particular, what will be interesting to see and very significant will be how Congress reacts to the almost certain need for more funding, which is going to happen, have to happen, probably sometime soon, probably within the next couple of months. We'll see exactly the amount of money that is needed here, because you're seeing this divisions play out on the issue of the munitions transfer.

Also about how much money is needed, whether additional money has been needed, getting into the House, getting to the Senate, even though there is support -- overwhelming support for defending Ukraine within Congress exactly how to do it. There are become increasing divisions, which could play out in the weeks ahead.

BASH: And then there's a question of what's going on the 2024 campaign trail. What Donald Trump has said about Ukraine. There was something that struck us about an interview that Volodymyr Zelenskyy there, Ukrainian president said on ABC over the weekend. Let's listen to that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC NEWS, CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Donald Trump says, he would end the war in 24 hours if he was elected president.

PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINE: It seems to me that their sole desire to bring the war to an end is beautiful, but this desire should be based on some real-life experiences. Well, it looks as if Donald Trump had already these 24 hours once in his time.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[12:10:00]

BASH: Kylie, you don't need to understand the art of diplo speak to see the shade that he's throwing at Donald Trump there.

ATWOOD: No. I mean, he's very clearly saying, we were already at war with -- excuse me -- we were already at war with Russia while this was happening. And he, President Trump was in office. He could have done something about it then. And he didn't do anything. It's not the war that's happening right now. But he's sort of calling President Trump's bluff.

And we have seen that even from other Republicans who are part of Trump's administration, you know, they have said, listen, maybe the president is making certain commitments, but there's no way that he would be able to pull something like that.

RAJU: And even his vice president, like Pence, he was saying that today doing that in one day, that's just simply fantasyland. That's exactly, but that was essentially his message here. But how does that play with Republican voters? That's a different question.

BASH: OK. You're going to stay with us. Kylie, thank you so much for joining us for this discussion. Up next, Iowa picks a date for its 2024 Republican caucuses. Ron DeSantis says, he has plenty of time if only the media would stop getting in his way. We're going to talk about that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BASH: It's official, the Iowa caucuses have a date, January 15, 2024. And Ron DeSantis, just looking at his campaign schedule is betting that Iowa can bolt him to the front of the 2024 pack. But right now, he's already setting up a fall guy, if he fails.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. RON DESANTIS, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: At the end of the day, I think the fact that I'm the one that's targeted by the media, by the left, even by the president of Mexico, is because people know that I will beat Biden. And they know that I will actually deliver on all these issues and beat the Democrats at the border, beat him on things like ESG, beat him on things like crime, and they don't want to see that. And so, we're going to keep telling the truth. And I think you're going to see good results.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: DeSantis said that just last hour on Fox News. It's the third time in four days, he's tried to pin his stumbling start on the media. Jackie Kucinich of The Boston Globe, and CNN's Kristen Holmes joined the panel. Nice to see you both. Kristen, you're on the campaign trail a lot with these mostly Donald Trump, but you certainly are in touch with Republican sources in the 2024 world. Is this blame the media strategy going to fly? KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I mean, this is DeSantis's strategy. He has taken a page from the Donald Trump playbook, which is bash the media. He hasn't actually taken the whole playbook, which was then caught the media, tried to be in touch with the media nonstop and get as much earned media as you can. So that's not the actual playbook.

And I think that we're starting to hear from those in DeSantis's (Inaudible) as they want him to actually use the mainstream media that this working to these silos of just conservative voters and specific conservative voters isn't really working for him.

And I know that I've talked to a number of DeSantis advisors, who say that part of the problem they believe with these polling numbers that have been continually going down is that he doesn't have the name recognition. Now, whether or not that is true, he obviously does have a higher name recognition than several other candidates. They want him out there, talking to the media and out there reaching voters.

BASH: Well, there's name recognition in a good way. And there's name recognition, the way your opponents want people to recognize you. And it seems as though the Trump SuperPAC campaign and others have been able to define DeSantis in a way that is not beneficial to him. I think in fairness, not much more than the media.

And also, you can look at what he has done in his campaign or not done. But you kind of alluded to this. The Wall Street Journal has some reporting from over the weekend, saying DeSantis has largely avoided talking to the mainstream media. But his campaign, in a sign of strategy shift is planning to do interviews around a series of policy proposals he will lay out in the coming weeks. That's according to people familiar with the plans.

The campaign is also counting on DeSantis's biography, becoming better known through advertising and his own telling, that's the kind of thing that Tim Scott is doing out there, and others who have name ID that is sort of lower among Republican electorate voters, primary voters, caucus voters.

And it's not something that DeSantis has done. He has an interesting biography. We don't know a whole lot about it, because all we hear about is Disney and woke and everything that he is saying, not that the media is saying that he is saying, but the media is reporting that he is saying.

JACKIE KUCINICH, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, THE BOSTON GLOBE: Well, it seems like he's trying to run a national version of what he's done in Florida, which is very insular, which is not engaging the media, not getting questions on the campaign. He's starting to, but not doing this kind of freewheeling stuff you see the former president doing.

He's really -- and there has been some acknowledgement among his team, not on the record, that this hasn't been working. And it's -- well the national polls, there might be a name recognition situation. He has been dropping in New Hampshire. People in New Hampshire know who he is. And so, I think that maybe introducing him, that retail thing that is so important in New Hampshire. It is early, but that has to kick in at some point because you're right, he could be defined by Trump or any number (crosstalk) even gets off the ground.

RAJU: And he hasn't found an effective strategy to take on Trump yet instead, trying to suggest that Trump has been insufficiently conservative in some areas. Well, Republican voters, they don't believe that Trump has been insufficiently conservative. They think he was on issues like immigration.

So, trying to run to Donald Trump's right and issues like abortion, for instance, even as Trump nominated and won three Supreme Court justices who essentially ended Roe v. Wade, that -- those are difficult arguments to do it. (crosstalk) exactly.

[12:20:00]

Instead, making the argument that a lot of Republican voters are concerned about Donald Trump's electability, making that the central focus and other issues that have come up even to the course of these indictments, things that such as the handling of classified materials could be issued that he could use against Donald Trump, please chose not to.

BASH: Well, you mentioned electability. There is an outside group called Club for Growth, which has never been a in the Donald Trump fan club. They are preparing to run ads that will start tomorrow in Iowa and South Carolina, kind of passive aggressive when it comes to Donald Trump. But if you listen to it and look at it, it's pretty clear, they're not fans.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love Donald Trump. I love what he did. Once he got in, my thought it was a breath of fresh air. He was attacked in all the time, and it seemed like, you know, it just seemed non-stop. We definitely need somebody that can freaking win. I think he probably lose that bet if you voted for Trump. You want somebody as smart, who actually knows how to build teams to solve issues.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: They're relying on Republican caucus and primary voters to take the long game and betting on the fact that people believe the long game means, he would lose the general.

HOLMES: That's right. And to be clear, Club for Growth has also put out full page ads saying that Trump is exactly like Biden, when it comes to entitlement plans. They really do not want him to win. But there is still this idea among Republicans, particularly Republicans who also don't want Trump to win, that there are people looking for an alternative that maybe they like Trump, and this actually goes to what you were saying Manu, about where DeSantis falls and trying to attack Trump because he knows that this there's this group that likes Trump, but maybe is looking for an alternative. But they also don't want to hear you rag on Donald Trump, which is why an ad like that is really so effective, because they're not ragging on him. They're saying these are all the great things about the former president, but you know, looking at his record, is it possible that he could not win again? I don't know. And that's the other thing that Trump's advisors are worried about as well. I mean, they don't know about the general electability. They think that he can do it, but they're just not sure.

BASH: So fascinating. Everybody standby. Up next, fear and loathing inside the Freedom Caucus. New CNN reporting on just how deep the fractures go inside the House's far right faction.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BASH: Moments ago, President Biden stepped off Air Force One. He touched down in Lithuania for a high stakes NATO Summit. Ukraine is very much at the top of his agenda there. CNN will have much more coverage of the president's consequential trip throughout the day today.

But first new CNN reporting on just how tricky life is within the Freedom Caucus. Right now, our Melanie Zanona and Annie Grayer are out with fresh details about where exactly the far-right caucus is headed and which tactics they may use to get there. As members returned to Washington after voting to oust their colleague, Marjorie Taylor Greene. Melanie joins me now to discuss. Melanie, tell us what you've learned?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Yes. Dana, there has been a ton of turmoil inside the House Freedom Caucus lately. They have been split over tactics, over policy, over membership rules, and even over whether to support former President Donald Trump.

And in fact, the group has been so divided lately that we have learned there's been a side group that has been holding sort of secret side meetings to discuss strategy because they don't trust other members of the Freedom Caucus. And those tensions really came to a head when they voted to remove Marjorie Taylor Greene just before the July 4 recess, in part because she is so loyal to Speaker Kevin McCarthy.

Now, we should point out that not everyone in the group actually supported her ouster. And just another example of how prominently the group has flipped. Jim Jordan, a member of the Freedom Caucus, a co- founder who has also become close to Kevin McCarthy, did support keeping her in the group, even though many other members voted to remove her.

This according to sources to both me and my colleague, Annie Grayer. But this group has been struggling with their identity for a while now, particularly in the post Trump years. We also learned in the course of this reporting that Ken Buck and Chip Roy to Freedom Caucus members who opposed Donald Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election, actually seriously contemplated quitting the group in the wake of the attack on the Capitol, the January 6 attack on the Capitol.

Now they ultimately decided to stay but notably, and interestingly, they have been among that pack of Freedom Caucus members who have been splitting and deviating from the norm to sort of do their own thing. So, just a lot of concern right now about this group's future, especially, Dana, as you know, because they derive their power from unity and strength in numbers.

BASH: So, well said, great reporting to you and to Annie. Thank you so much, Melanie. And our reporters are back here. And Manu, I just want to read a little bit more of her reporting. The recent cracks that have emerged within the caucus, a band of roughly 40 rabble rousers who derive much of their power, as she just said, from being unified against Republican leadership are emblematic of a broader identity crisis that the eight-year-old group has been wrestling with, initially formed to help pull the GOP legislative agenda to the right.

The ultra conservative caucus quickly became a fan club for Donald Trump, more defined by personalities than a devotion to policy as somebody who watched the birth of the Freedom Caucus and watched it mean the end of John Boehner and eventually Paul Ryan, their speaker chips, you are still running around the Capitol every single day. Have you seen these cracks to become bigger and bigger?

RAJU: Yes. No question about it. And Marjorie Taylor Greene is a prime example of it.