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Federal Judge Issues Limited Gag Order Against Donald Trump; Israel: 199 People Being Held Hostage In Gaza By Hamas; CNN Speaks To Woman With 10 Family Members Kidnapped By Hamas; Palestinian-American Child Laid To Rest After Horrific Attack. Aired 12:30-1p ET
Aired October 16, 2023 - 12:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DANA BASH, CNN HOST: I want to go straight to Paula Reid, who has some new reporting on former President Donald Trump, who just suffered a big blow in court. Paula, what happened?
PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Dana, just moments ago, a federal judge ruled that former President Trump will be subject to additional restrictions ahead of his federal trial here in Washington, D.C. related to his alleged role in efforts to subvert the 2020 election and January 6.
Now, like many defendants, he already has some restrictions on what he can and cannot say as a criminal defendant. He is already barred from harassing or threatening witnesses and his limitations on the extent to which he can discuss the case with anyone who is not one of his attorneys.
But in recent weeks, special counsel prosecutors argued that there should be more restrictions on him in light of public statements that he has made about witnesses, about staff members and here. The judge had a really difficult task, Dana. I was in court, as she listened to arguments from his defense attorneys and from prosecutors about this need to balance, his First Amendment right.
The fact that he is a candidate for office, but also the fact that this court needs to be able to conduct this trial without interference. They need to select a jury that is not afraid that it is going to be threatened or intimidated. They also need people to be able to do their job as witnesses. And it was really interesting to watch this back and forth.
The hearing lasted for over two hours. Then Judge Tanya Chutkan, she's the judge who will oversee this through what is expected to be a trial, she left the bench for a short time and came back. And she ruled that she was going to add additional restrictions on Trump. He is now barred from targeting members of the special counsel, staff, members of the court, staff, and also any witnesses.
Now, the government had asked her to go a little bit further, asked her to restrict any comments he made, would make about Washington, D.C., or the jury pool, and also some of his comments about the Justice Department and the Biden administration. Judge didn't go quite that far, but she has expanded the restrictions, and she said, look, if you -- if he violates this, there will be sanctions, but it's unclear exactly what will happen.
Now, we're still waiting for the formal order to lay out all of these details, but she just ruled from the bench. And I would describe this as a partial win for prosecutors who wanted to see these additional restrictions. And Dana, look, Judge Chutkan, she has made clear that she understands that former President Trump has a First Amendment right, but that must yield to the orderly administration of justice in this courthouse.
BASH: Paula, thank you so much for reporting that breaking news. I appreciate it.
Jeff Zeleny is still here. I now want to bring in Evan Perez to the conversation for your reporting as well. Before you guys weigh in, I just want to give our viewers a sense of some of the comments that the former president has made that precipitated this partial gag order just yesterday on his social media platform.
"Crooked and deranged Prosecutor, Jack Smith, who has a terrible record of failure, is asking a highly partisan Obama appointed Judge, Tanya Chutkan, who should recuse herself based on the horrible things she has said to silence me."
He went on to say, "These political hacks and thugs are destroying our country. Let's see what happens Monday", meaning what just happened. "Will America survive or not?" That's just one example of the kinds of things that the judge is saying.
You have a First Amendment right --
EVAN PEREZ, CNN SENIOR JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes.
BASH: -- but it's not unlimited.
PEREZ: Right, I mean, and look, the thing that the Trump lawyer, John Lauro, kept going back to in this hearing was that because the former president is running for office, that it would be inappropriate for any kind of curbs to be put on the former president because he should be able to criticize, for instance, Mike Pence, who he's running against for the Republican nomination.
He should be able to criticize Bill Barr, who is likely to be one of the witnesses who's going to be testifying in his trial. So the judge really did struggle with this, but the bottom line is that she believes that she needs to give him some kind of rail. And she also pointed out that if he violates the restrictions and she's going to have to elaborate this in an order that we're going to see written down for the former president that he can look at.
But she points out that she's not going to wait for anyone to ask for any sanctions. She is going to sanction the former president or anyone else who violates the order. So we'll see how that looks like, but it's going to be a struggle. BASH: OK, so that was going to be my next question. How is this enforceable when you say sanction the former president? What is that look like?
PEREZ: Well, I mean, it usually starts with a scolding with a judge but in the end, I mean, she can decide that she -- you can go to jail. I mean, he's released right now on his own recognizance, right? He is on release right now and is subject to this court. So we don't see that happening. I mean, it'd be such an extraordinary thing.
John Lauro raised this. He's like, what are you going to do? You're going to put him in jail during the time that he's running for office?
And she's like, you know, she's saying, look, there are limits here to his First Amendment rights, given the fact that this is -- there is an interest for there to be a fair trial and for this trial to go off when she says it's happening, which is March.
By the way, she pointed out, I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to push this trial beyond the election. We're not -- that's not -- we're not going to do that.
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: I mean, look, we'll see if he abides by this. That's always been the sort of the case of the former president, right? Before this ruling was issued this morning, I got a handful of of fundraising appeals from the Trump campaign saying they are trying to silence me.
So, look, he's never been able to -- we're never really taken seriously something. So, but this will be the first test. He's trying his case or defending his case a couple different places in the court of public opinion and on the campaign trail where he thinks this benefits him. There's no doubt, this is a very serious matter.
You're right, she could hold him in contempt.
ZELENY: We'll see if that happens. But --
BASH: I know we've never seen anything like this.
PEREZ: There's so many things we've never seen.
BASH: I know. Like, we need another word for --
ZELENY: What have we seen?
BASH: We need another word for unprecedented.
BASH: When you figure it out, let me know.
BASH: But since we don't have one at the moment, at least not at the tip of my tongue, we know that this kind of thing has never happened. But judges, in general, have issued gag orders.
BASH: When it's somebody other than the former president and candidate for president, generally speaking, how successful are gag orders, even limited gag orders?
PEREZ: Well, I think once you do get scolded by a judge, I mean, I think it does kind of bring -- if she brings him in and tells him personally, you know, it does have an effect. I mean, most of us don't want to go spend time in jail, right?
I will say there is a corollary in this very courthouse. Roger Stone was put on trial a couple of years ago. It was a similar thing where he was lashing out at the judge on social media. Even, you know, retweeting a picture of her with some crosshairs in the tweet.
And she came down pretty hard on him and limited his social media activities. But, in the end, you know, he has the right as a defendant to speak. And judges are also concerned that they will create things that will be appealed if he gets convicted. Things that will be, you know, room for a defendant to toss out their convictions. So I think judges are very, very careful in how they restrict the defendant in this time.
ZELENY: And he's in Iowa this afternoon, the former president, he'll be campaigning about an hour or so. So perhaps we'll see where he can send out a message on social media at at any point. But again, I mean, he is -- he's more concerned about the actual merits of these cases in many of them than he lets on. He kind of blows them off politically speaking in these fundraising appeals and things, but he is concerned about going to jail and other things.
So, we'll see if he flouts it or not. I'm trying to think of the word here, we've done (ph) enough, but we'll see if he ignores it or not.
BASH: Thank you so much for all of that. And this is of course happening on the backdrop of very, very real dire world events. And we can talk about his comments about those world events at another time.
But right now we do want to get back to the breaking news out of Israel. The Rafah gate is slowly opening. The faces of Hamas hostages, children, just three and eight years old. You see two of them there. They're two of 10 members of one family kidnapped by Hamas terrorists.
Coming up, I'll speak with their relative who is pleading with officials to help bring them home.
[12:43:12] BASH: A sobering new number today from the IDF, 199. That's how many people they say are being held hostage by Hamas, about 50 more than they originally believed. And it includes 10 members of Shira Havron's family, all 10 taken from their home in Kibbutz Be'eri. The site of one of the worst massacres of last weekend's barbaric attacks.
Shira joins me now from Brussels, where she is trying to get information from officials about her missing family members. Thank you so much for joining me. I can't imagine the pain that you are in, the anguish that you and your family are experiencing.
Can you first tell us about the members of your family and when -- where you were and when you learned that they were missing? And I will tell you as you are, we are going to show our viewers the names and pictures of the family members that we're talking about that you've provided to us.
SHIRA HAVRON, FAMILY MEMBERS MISSING: Yes. So when the news came in, I was actually traveling London, really far away from the kibbutz and from my home. And we got the news as everyone else. My parents called me and said the kibbutz was under attack.
We have -- they live in two different households. So we learned that they're both households are hiding in their safe rooms. We texted them for a while, but then we lost contact around 9:00 a.m. and actually didn't hear from them ever since. And right now, we believe they're held hostage.
We know for sure that six of them are actually there because it was confirmed by the authorities. The other four, we can just guess at this moment and we hope this became actually the best case scenario for them. And, yes, we don't know their condition.
BASH: And as we're putting these pictures up on the screen, one that we see right now, a three-year-old. A three-year-old. These are both dual Israeli and European citizens. And they range in ages from 66 down to three years old, which is who we're seeing, Yael seeing on the screen right now.
And your grandfather, Shira, your grandparents survived the Holocaust. And you told me that most of these family members of yours are descendants of Holocaust survivors, now being held hostage by Hamas terrorists.
HAVRON: Yes. This is the case. I'm -- it's really sad to say but I'm just -- I'm happy they're not alive to see this because we just -- I could never imagine I would speak to you under the same circumstances but my family is completely shattered right now. And not only their beloved kibbutz was, you know, just demolished.
I don't know what future -- what the future holds for this place. I don't know if it will exist anymore after this. But their children, who are grandparents themselves today are -- were kidnapped alongside their grandparents, just, you know, the most beautiful kids and just complete. Even after 10 days, you know, you can't really grasp that situation.
BASH: No, I can't even imagine. And I should also add that your grandfather, who is -- was a Holocaust survivor, he was one of the founders of Kibbutz Be'eri. And so, it's even more -- in your DNA, these kibbutz, never mind the fact that your family is missing.
You are in Brussels, I mentioned that. I know that you're trying to get help from European officials since your family members are also European citizens. What are you hearing from them?
HAVRON: So, as you said, my family are Germans, Austrians, and Italian citizens. I'm actually -- I moved today to Strasbourg to try and meet with parliament members of the E.U. When we were in Brussels, we met with many representatives. And, you know, we were welcomed in warm words and hugs and support.
And our demand is very clear. We want them out of there. We want them home. We want them to put the pressure on the right people and the relevant people who, in our opinion, is everyone because this is not only, you know, a matter of Israel and Palestine. This is a political situation.
These are innocent people kept hostage and it's a humanitarian crisis for our family, but for other families, and we think for the world, not only because they're European citizens. And we also asked a very concrete request for them to see the Red Cross, to see a doctor, to know something, to get a sign of life, because the unknown is unbearable. And, as I said, we're welcome there, and we're guaranteed, or, you know, heard supportive words, but until we see actions, you know, words are easy to say.
BASH: I cannot even imagine, again, the pain that you're feeling, but the fact that you are doing what you can, the fact that you are in Europe, that you are banging down the door of officials, trying to get at the very least help, medical help, as you just mentioned, is really remarkable.
And it says a lot about the strength that you have and clearly the strength that your family has. And the idea that your grandparents survived the Holocaust to go to Israel and their descendants are dealing with this is just beyond the pale.
Please stay in touch and let us know if you hear anything at all and thank you so much for sharing your story and allowing us to put their pictures on the screen for the world to see so that they can see the humanity here.
Appreciate it. Thank you so much, Shira.
HAVRON: Thank you.
BASH: We'll be right back.
[12:54:38] BASH: A six-year-old Palestinian-American boy will be buried this afternoon after a horrific attack on him and his mother in the Chicago area. This man, who was their landlord, now faces multiple charges, including first degree murder and hate crimes after he allegedly stabbed the child 26 times, 26 times. A six-year-old boy, killing him and seriously wounding his mother.
CNN's Whitney Wild is live outside the mosque where his family will soon say their goodbyes. Whitney, it's unbelievable, unbelievable. This poor, poor boy and his mother.
WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: And Dana, what is so remarkable about all of this is they say that they lived at that the Council on American Islamic Relations, is an organization that is helping the family at this time. They say this family had lived in this home for two years, no problem. And then suddenly this violence erupted in the Middle East and something significant shifted in this man.
He was just in court, and minutes ago, our producer Virginia Langmaid sent some information about what prosecutors said in court. Prosecutors read a few statements from the mother who is recovering from her stab wounds, and she said she could hear her son being stabbed while he was hiding in the bathroom and she was trying to call 911.
Prosecutor said in court that according to the victim, the mother in this case, Azubah, listened to conservative talk radio. He has been following the conflict and recently asked the family to move out once this conflict started.
Dana, this all happened Saturday morning. Again, the mother calling 911 because this man, as she said, according to care, came to the door, tried to choke her, tried to attack her, and according to care, again said to her, you Muslims must die.
When police arrived on scene, they found that woman in a back bedroom, as well as her son, who again, had been stabbed 26 times. Dana, that number bears repeating because it is just so horrific.
In a few minutes, we expect to hear from more members of this community who is collectively heartbroken and shocked by this tragedy. And this funeral was set to take place in about an hour. Dana?
BASH: I mean, absolutely horrific. As you said, this family apparently just living their lives and they're Muslims. Islam is a religion of peace.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate that reporting, Whitney. Thank you so much for joining Inside Politics. CNN News Central starts after a quick break.