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Now: Prosecutors, Trump Lawyers Questioning 18 Potential Jurors; Jury Selection Underway On Day 2 Of Trump Hush Money Trial; Trump Attacks Judge, Complains About Not Being On Campaign Trail; Biden Hits The Trail While Trump Sits In Court. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired April 16, 2024 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Today on Inside Politics, the people of the state of New York versus Donald J. Trump. Right now, the former president is sitting in a court as a criminal defendant, keeping an eye on the prospective jurors who could make him a convicted felon. CNN is inside and outside the courtroom with all of the breaking details on this critical moment in American history.

And the Biden campaign says that while Trump is import, Biden is quote, running the country. Today, he heads to his hometown of Scranton, Pennsylvania to channel his working-class roots and talk about taxes in the middle class.

Plus, quote, I am not resigning. That's a quote from Mike Johnson. It was his message to his caucus as another House Republican joins the push to kick him out of speaker. This now means that if he wants to keep his gavel, he'll likely need Democrats to help.

I'm Dana Bash. Let's go behind the headlines at Inside Politics.

We start with breaking news from downtown Manhattan. It is day two of the first ever criminal trial of a former president. Jury selection in the Trump hush money trial is moving at a glacial pace. Dozens of potential jurors have already been dismissed for saying they can't be impartial. They can't be fair. Others were excused because of personal scheduling conflicts.

So far, exactly, zero -- zero jurors have actually been chosen. This could take a while. Right now, lawyers on both sides are questioning the 18 people who made it through the written questionnaire phase at the jury selection. They're talking about where they work, where they're from, where they live, what they read, whether they went to college, even what they do for fun.

As for Trump, he is inside the courtroom. Reporters in the room tell us that at times he's been looking at individual jurors directly. At other times he appears to be closing his eyes as answers are being read.

CNN's Laura Coates is outside the courtroom in Manhattan with our colleagues Kara Scannell and Kristen Holmes. Laura?

LAURA COATES, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Thank you so much, Dana. It is an historic day. We're in day two now of the jury selection process. And of course, now it's really in the thick of it. We've got jurors who are in, what's called the box of the courtroom. They're now being questioned by the lawyers.

This written questionnaire we've all become accustomed to now is now obsolete, right? They're asking questions now to delve deeper, Kara, into how these jurors might ultimately be able to be impartial.

KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. And the first one is now the prosecution. And one of the prosecutors on the case is now addressing the jury box and asking them questions. He has 30 minutes to ask these questions and try to root out any possible concerns that he might be able to identify in any jurors.

COATES: Not the juror per total. Is that right?

SCANNELL: This is 30 minutes to talk to the 18 jurors that are currently in the box. And he's talking to them about who they might hear from in this case. He said that there are some witnesses who have some edge, the former publisher of the National Enquirer, and adult film star, and Michael Cohen, who has already admitted to having lied.

And he's asking the jurors, can you set aside likability in credibility? Can you -- you know, if you don't like the person, can you still find them credible? This -- our colleague say that no jury in the box that that they put in. I mean he's trying to say, you know, you shouldn't decide it just on what this one person says. Anyway, can you keep an open mind until you hear all of the evidence that comes into this case? Don't just hang it on one person. The jurors have said that they could.

You know, there was also questions he asked out of the gate. How do you feel about being a juror? The one person responded that he believed he could judge it on the merits of the case. And other said, I don't think my politics matter here. I'll listen to the evidence. So, they're asking these questions to try to get a sense of how people's -- what the people's mindset is as you're thinking about taking on this responsibility.

COATES: You know, on that responsibility, Kristen, we spoke with a juror who had been dismissed just a few moments ago. And she described this dichotomy between the weight of the moment and then serving. Listen to what she had to say. This was Kara McGhee, who has just recently dismissed.

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KARA MCGEE, JUROR DISMISSED FROM NY HUSH MONEY TRIAL: If someone who you've seen as this larger than life, public figure for a decade or so at this point. You know that this is history in the making, and whatever the outcome of this is -- everything going forward will be affected by it. And at the same time, you walk into the courtroom, and you see Trump's sitting there. I had never seen him in person before. You see him sitting there and it's like, oh, it's just a guy.

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COATES: Kristen, this is a guy who happens to be Donald Trump in Manhattan and prosecutors are almost unquestioning in their third initial -- 30-minute window. Imagine that dynamic for many of these jurors for the first time.

KRISTEN HOLMES: I mean, imagine it's both frightening, intimidating, but also kind of stunning to walk into this. You're walking into jury duty. You're sitting here being like, am I going to be chosen for this case, and then all sudden, it's Donald Trump. I'm sure some people had to actually do a double take because he's sitting in a courtroom, probably looks almost like anybody else. Not the first thing you do is look at the person who's sitting there as the defendant.

The other part of this is that Donald Trump is not just a normal famous person. He is an incredibly polarizing figure. We saw this yesterday, when people walked into the room and started giggling immediately or burst out or gassed. And those people obviously ended up being dismissed.

But it was interesting to just to see the reaction and the gravity that people are feeling walking into this room. But it's also part of the reason why both the prosecution and the defense are concerned that it's going to be hard to find people who are impartial, because when you walk in and you see this incredibly polarizing figure. You also note how this could -- as she said, change everything. And we are still ahead of that November election. And this could very well play a role in that election.

COATES: And remember, one of the questions on the questionnaire was about the candidacy and the impact of that. But again, these important opinions they have, now you worry about confirmation bias, Dana, to figure out whether or not the person's opinion can be confirmed or double down throughout the course of testimony now works against both the prosecution and the defense.

BASH: Somebody who's actually done this as a prosecutor. Thanks so much to you and to our colleagues, Kara and Kristen. Appreciate it, Laura. Let's bring in two other legal experts, CNN's senior legal analyst and former federal prosecutor Elie Honig, and the director of the Harvard Criminal Justice Institute, Professor Ronald Sullivan.

Professor, I'm going to start with you because I just want to get your take on the whole Donald Trump of it all. And not necessarily about the fact that he's famous, but about the fact that he is somebody who elicits very strong feelings by most Americans, whether you're very strongly for him or very strongly against him.

Given the fact that what is going on right now is one of the key questions that is being asked is whether or not you think you can as a juror be fair and impartial. How difficult is it to genuinely find a juror who can say, yes? RONALD SULLIVAN, CLINICAL PROFESSOR OF LAW, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL: I think it is very difficult and genuinely difficult to find a juror who genuinely can put aside, predispositions and those sorts of things in order to render a fair and impartial verdict. But very difficult does not mean impossible. And the court is going to take its time. I know initially, you said it's going at a glacial pace. And it is and it should be.

This should take a long time because you actually want to weed out people who are not able to set aside predispositions and biases. And that sort of thing takes time. I've tried a case where it took us a month to choose a jury. We finally got one, but it sometimes these things take a while and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

BASH: Yeah. But I'm suspecting as I bring in Elie Honig here, that the professor when he brought, it took a month to choose a jury. It wasn't a presidential candidate -- former president in the middle of a campaign. And that's obviously that one of the major tricks here. Who benefits most from all jurors dropping out in like -- just before they even pass go (Ph)?

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Yeah. So that was a remarkable moment yesterday. The judge start off with a pool of 96 jurors. And when the judge said, how many of you are so biased that you feel like you couldn't possibly sit on this case. He lost over half of that pool. Over 50 of them immediately. And I can see both sides of this.

On the one hand, if you're sitting there, let's say you're Donald Trump or Donald Trump's lawyers. You're thinking, boy, that's a pretty stark reminder of just how stacked this deck is against us because you have to think that all or nearly all of those people were biased against Trump. It's hard to envision someone who said, I just love this guy so much. I can't be on this jury.

BASH: That actually did happen, though today.

HONIG: Right, but very, very limited. Especially, somebody who self identifies because let me add it here. There may be people who come up in the questioning. On the other hand, if you're Trump, it's probably a good sign that people are being honest, that people aren't kidding themselves about their ability to be impartial.

And as a practical matter, you just got rid of the 50 or so 48, 49 of them were probably jurors who didn't want anyway. So, I agree with the professor. I think the system will not get you a perfect jury, also (inaudible) is a perfect jury. It will take time, but I do think it will yield a fair jury.

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BASH: Professor, let's not just talk in generalities. We have the benefit of having a terrific team there in New York. And they are getting information about potential jurors. So that our viewers can get a sense of the kinds of people who are in the potential pool. One potential juror has read several books by Donald Trump. And also, as a member of the ACLU, you can see the media that this juror reads. Let's go to another one, originally from Mexico, a relatively new U.S. citizen, works in marketing. Also, that has hobbies, traveled, scuba diving, looks like they have a -- I mean, the New York Times, Huffington Post, MSNBC. What does that tell you that kind of information, not just about their hobbies, but maybe in this particular case unfortunately, for where we are in the world where they consume their media?

SULLIVAN: Well, that sort of information serves as a proxy. Such that the lawyer can try to determine whether or not that juror is going to be beneficial to his or her side of the case. It's imperfect. It's more art than science, or at least equally art and science. But let's take the one. We have someone from -- I think you said Mexico and in the ACLU. Those may not have been the two together, but let's use that as a hypothetical.

So, you might think that someone from Mexico would be antagonistic to former President Trump because of his comments about the border and so forth. Someone from the ACLU might also be antagonistic to President Trump. But someone from the ACLU might have a deep and abiding appreciation for the rule of law and for the presumption of innocence and so forth. And that might be, in fact, a good juror.

So, it's -- you're taking an educated guess as to who -- what kind of juror that may be. It's not perfect, but you have limited time and limited information. And lawyers do the best that they can in order to determine who's going to be best for their side of the case.

BASH: And Elie, as I bring you in, I want you to bounce off of what the professor said. We're looking at a live picture outside the courthouse that they just took a break from jury selection. So, it's possible that we'll see the former president come out.

HONIG: Let me guess what I'll say. If he comes -- and (inaudible) right. He's sort of has his usual. You know, the professor is right that when you look at these forms and when you hear the answers from the jurors, a lot of times it's a mixed bag, right? Some of the examples there.

As the professor noted, you can oftentimes interpret things either way. And what you do as a lawyer is, you are watching those jurors -- as potential jurors. Every move they make, you're looking at how are they dressed. You're looking at superficial things. They're looking at, how is the person groomed. Does the person have a long ponytail?

Like there are things that you can learn or at least guess, based on looking at people. If they're holding any reading material. A lot of times people they can't bring their phone sometimes. So, they're holding a book. What book are they reading, right? I thought it was interesting.

The first example was somebody who had read some of Trump's books, so that could go either way, right? Because I mean, the art of the deal, maybe you read it because you think it's font of wisdom. Maybe you read it because you want to understand where this guy came from. You don't like him, and you want to understand his origins. So, there's a lot of interpretation involved here.

BASH: Really, really interesting. I think we're going to be talking about this for several days. But it is fascinating to see how -- listen, this is part of our system and to see how it works. And it is very important as both of you have pointed out. Elie, thank you. Professor Ronald Sullivan, thank you.

Don't go away because while Donald Trump is in a Manhattan courtroom. President Biden is heading to the battleground state of Pennsylvania. The campaign split screen we are about to see much, much more of, next.

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BASH: When Donald Trump entered the New York City courthouse this morning, he didn't just attack the judge overseeing his hush money case. He also lamented having to be in court at all.

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DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I shouldn't be right now in Pennsylvania and Florida. In many other states, North Carolina, Georgia campaigning. This is all coming from the Biden White House because the guy can't put two sentences together. He can't campaign really using this in order to try and win an election. And it's not working that way. It's working the opposite way.

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BASH: Before we get to our panel, I want to note that Trump's claim about Biden orchestrating the trial is baseless. The case was brought by a New York district attorney, there's no evidence that Joe Biden was involved at all.

Now I am joined by our great panel today CNN's Jeff Zeleny, Bloomberg and CNN's Nia-Malika Henderson and Hans Nichols of Axios. Hello, everybody. Good to see you. Jeff Zeleny, let me start with you. You are out talking to voters all the time and all the states that he just named and more. How much do you -- what is happening and what will continue to happen? Will resonate where it matters most politically?

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JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: We'll have to see what the outcome of the trial is. We'll have to see what, you know, how this affects the former president personally. This is not just a random -- talking about numbers, it's about something very personal to him. We will just have to -- it's hard to do but be patient and watch the political fallout of this.

But I did think was interesting mentioning, Florida and North Carolina. Florida is not really a battleground state. Perhaps he was thinking about being home at Mar-a-Lago, where the season is almost ending. So, he is going to miss the end of the season at Mar-a-Lago, but North Carolina is actually going on Saturday.

And that is a state that the Biden campaign is trying to make competitive. It's the bluest -- if you will, it was the smallest margin of victory for Trump. But look, at the end of the day, he does not hold many campaign rallies on a Tuesday or during the week. So, in the short term, I'm not sure it has any effect that he's on television more now because of what he's doing around Manhattan.

BASH: I think missing the end of the palm beach season is one he maybe could have tried with the judge to see how that work.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Listen, I mean, when Donald Trump -- you know, could campaign during the primary, he didn't really campaign, right. I think in some ways, he's sort of over campaigning, and he might be just as happy to sit around, maybe not in a courtroom but certainly sit around Mar-a-Largo.

But you know, he obviously wants to make that an issue. North Carolina an interesting state, they've got a really -- I think, MAGA governor who's running, I think the Biden team definitely sees that as someplace they can make Republicans spend money, even if they can't necessarily make it competitive in the general.

I will say about this. We don't really know what's going to come out of this trial, right? We obviously don't know what the verdict will be, but also just the salacious details. Some of which we already know, but it's likely that this trial is going to uncover other uncomfortable allegations and facts around Donald Trump.

HANS NICHOLS, POLITICAL REPORTER, AXIOS: Look, we have a national campaign with Donald Trump. I mean, he's there talking -- they're doing jury selection, but he's talking to the rest of the jury in the states that he is mentioning. And that's so clearly his play here is that he wants to make this a national event. This allows him in some ways to be all those states when he's actually in Manhattan.

And this sort of curious dynamic about the campaign is that it's going to be contested in six, maybe seven states, right? The Biden administration in the White House really wants to put North Carolina in play, but Donald Trump is trying to make it national. And that strikes me is that he can in some ways be in more places than one by being in court and broadcast his message out.

Now, look, I'm sure you hated the audio, right? I mean, we all listen that.

HENDERSON: And the visual wasn't very --

NICHOLS: What is that Donald Trump is a very good television producer. He probably hated that audio. And forgive me for whoever the technician was, Dana. Maybe they're trying their best. But Donald Trump likes images. He likes sound. And yes, he gets to broadcast the rest of the country there -- ZELENY: I know that he can't control everything.

BASH: Yeah. Well -- yeah, exactly. All right. So, he -- the former president while he was -- he said, well, Joe Biden is not campaigning. He actually is -- he's in Pennsylvania today. The topic according to the campaign taxes, what to do about the Trump tax cuts that will expire next year, which in a normal election would be a really, really big issue.

CNN's Arlette Saenz is in Scranton. Arlette, it is a big issue. The question is how much campaign sees on this topic?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Dana. Well, President Biden today is really trying to draw a sharp economic contrast with former President Donald Trump as he kicks off this three-days swing through Pennsylvania. But he's also drawing a contrast when it comes to how they're spending their time, as the president will be here in the state -- on the campaign trail, while Trump is in a New York City courtroom facing criminal trial.

But the president's focus for his speech today will really be on a tax policy, trying to make this argument that the former president is developing a policy that benefits billionaires and the wealthy and not the middle class. We've really seen the Biden campaign recently seizing on the fact that Trump recently told donors that one of his top priorities -- if he's elected to a second term would be extending those sweeping 2017 tax cuts that he signed into law.

Those tax cuts impacted all Americans, but really benefited the wealthy far more. President Biden for his part has been campaigning on raising taxes on the wealthy and corporations, while promising not to raise taxes for those families making $400,000 or less.

But the president is returning here to Scranton, Pennsylvania, his hometown. This is a place that he often comes to try to make that connection with working class voters. I traveled here many times with him back in 2020. And his argument back in that campaign was that it was a choice between Scranton versus Park Avenue.

Heading into this visit, his campaign team has really framed this election as one being between the kitchen tables facing Scranton voters and the quote, country club Mar-a-Lago vision of former President Donald Trump.

Now to back up some of their arguments that the president is working for the working class, they released a new digital video today with some personal testimonials from President Biden's family members and close friends from when he grew up here in Scranton. Take a listen?

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Scranton is a set of values. We pride ourselves on the importance of family, and honesty and hard work. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Scranton really, I think is the case study for what President Biden has done since he's taken office. Four years ago, we were distressed. We're out of financial distress as a city. For the first time in a long time, we have a president who understands normal middle class people like me.

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SAENZ: Now, this also all comes as Biden is trying to move the needle with voters who have pessimistic views of his handling of the economy. But Pennsylvania certainly will be one of those critical states to Biden as he's seeking reelection, as polling here recently has really shown a very close race between the two candidates.

BASH: Arlette, thank you. And over your shoulder, we see tax fairness for all Americans. That clearly is sort of the bumper sticker takeaway that the Biden campaign wants everybody to have with this event today. Thanks, Arlette.

And on that note, I was talking to somebody at the Biden world this morning saying, OK. The president potentially, you could argue, like almost stopped World War 3 over the weekend. We know that there is a very big desire by a lot of swing voters to hear more about reproductive rights.

The economy is a tough one for him. Why this? And the answer is what you saw in that sign. They actually believe that of all the economic sort of troubles that people are feeling the -- we're going to make taxes more fair for you is a potent one that's actually moving the needle a bit.

NICHOLS: And it allows them to throw the conversation forward, right? Everything Joe Biden is doing is trying to turn this election into a choice and not a referendum. Now over his shoulder, its tax fairness. I didn't see Bidenomics over his shoulder.

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NICHOLS: And that's unfair, maybe he'll say it, right. Maybe he'll come out and make a big full-throated defense of Bidenomics. And he'll mention that. But anytime they can make this more about a choice. You saw the president in his sort of knee jerk response to the inflation numbers, and then the White House later really leaned into it that you think inflation is bad now, wait until Donald Trump is president.

Now that's a fine argument that can make it but that's a different argument than the argument before, which was, we understand how like -- how much you're hurting. Here's the things the president is doing. They're trying to just make this into a contrast and we're going to have that for the next six months.

HENDERSON: And you know, he's trying to sound like a populist, right? This idea that Donald Trump only cares about his rich friends who are down in Mar-a-Largo, who are donating millions of dollars to his campaign. And Joe Biden, the kid from Scranton, he cares about just average Joes and Janes out in the Midwest. And so, we'll see if it works. I mean, their problem is that if you look at polls, the advantage that it has on the economy, it's like --

BASH: Let me just -- let me just quickly bring that up. Just one example, The Wall Street Journal. This is about Pennsylvania, where the president is today. Trump 52, Biden 35 percent on the economy.

ZELENY: So, for all of the noise in this election about a criminal trial, there are other issues. A certain foreign policy is very important, but it is the economy that this election could hinge on. And I think what Hans said about this being forward looking, the president has been kind of -- there been some inner conversations with his team about how much he wants to talk about his accomplishments versus you know, what people want to know what you are going to do. So that's what all of this is about.

NICHOLS: By entering conversations, Jeff means raging debate that we're trying to get readouts on, but you're right.

ZELENY: Well, I mean the types of things to look, that's what he's trying to do here but also significant. He's back on the campaign trail. Donald Trump is not.

BASH: Yeah. That's very true. Everybody standby. Up next. Potential jurors are packed into a Manhattan courtroom as the court is trying to find the 12 men and women who will hear the case against Donald Trump or live outside that courthouse. Next?

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