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Biden Plays Cleanup As Panic Consumes Democratic Party; Crisis Of Confidence In Biden Could Have Downballot Impact; How will Candidates' Debate Performances Translate in Polling?; Tomorrow Supreme Court Expected to Rule in Trump Immunity Case. Aired 8-9a ET

Aired June 30, 2024 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:00]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN ANCHOR: I've not seen the pandas and their. I guess you don't call them exhibits. They're at the different zoos. But I would go out to San Diego. I would be in San Diego next week.

ISABEL ROSALES, CNN ANCHOR: Just get ready for the lines, though. In D.C., my god, it was like waiting at Disney.

BLACKWELL: Oh, so you've seen them?

ROSALES: To see pandas, yes.

BLACKWELL: Yeah.

ROSALES: I mean, it's worth it. They're just so cute, and clumsy.

BLACKWELL: All right, I'll head out.

ROSALES: There you go.

BLACKWELL: Thank you so much for joining us.

INSIDE POLITICS WITH MANU RAJU starts right now.

ROSALES: Take care.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(MUSIC)

MANU RAJU, CNN HOST (voice-over): Digging in.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When you get knocked down, you get back up.

RAJU: The president faces calls to drop out.

BIDEN: I know I'm not a young man.

RAJU: As Democrats face tough questions.

Do you think there should be a new candidate?

While Trump basks in the fallout.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Did anybody last night watch a thing called a debate?

RAJU: And repeats falsehoods.

Two pollsters help us break down the aftermath.

Plus, supreme suspense. A major decision looms.

TRUMP: Do you have to have guaranteed immunity for a president? Otherwise, the president's not going to be able to function.

RAJU: While a Trump ally readies for prison.

INSIDE POLITICS, the best reporting from inside the corridors of power, starts now.

(MUSIC)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RAJU: Good morning, and welcome to INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. I'm Manu Raju.

President Joe Biden and his team spent the weekend in a full blown effort to contain the damage to his candidacy from Thursday's CNN debate, a performance many in his own party called disastrous as they fear it could lead to a Donald Trump victory in November.

But despite the growing calls for the 81-year-old incumbent to drop out of the race, to give the party some time to find a new candidate ahead of the Democratic convention in august, Biden and his team signaled he was not going anywhere, as they aggressively tried to tamp down the push for a replacement.

This morning, the president is with his family at Camp David, and yesterday, he told big donors in New Jersey, quote: It wasn't my best debate. I understand the concern. I get it, but I'm going to be fighting harder.

And in the Hamptons, he also said at a fundraiser, quote: Voters had a different reaction to the debate and, quote, I didn't have a great debate, great night. But neither did Trump.

Now, Democrats are assessing the fallout, even as the drumbeat for Biden to drop out is getting louder, including from editorial boards of "The New York Times", "The Atlanta Journal Constitution", "Chicago Tribune", and big name commentators like Maureen Dowd, Tom Friedman and David Remnick.

But so far, publicly elected Democrats are still standing by him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) RAJU: He's the best candidate for you guys?

REP. ANDRE CARSON (D-IN): I think so, I think so.

RAJU: He stumbled his way through 90 minutes, could barely answer some questions.

CARSON: Well, he started off very slowly, but he picked up his pace.

GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO (D-PA): Joe Biden beat Donald Trump before and Joe Biden can beat Donald Trump again.

RAJU: There's no possibility of removing him?

REP. MIKE QUIGLEY (D-IL): No.

RAJU: Why?

QUIGLEY: We move forward. He's our nominee. I support the president.

RAJU: You don't think you'd be better off with a better candidate?

REP. ROBERT GARCIA (D-CA): Absolutely not.

REP. BECCA BALINT (D-VT): I'm terrified, but the fact that this man can lie for 90 minutes and show that he does not have a moral compass at all, that is what is terrifying me this morning. That's all I have to say.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And, Congresswoman Balint, at the end there, was speaking about former President Trump.

Now, a lot to break down this morning with my great panel: CNN's Jeff Zeleny, Leigh Ann Caldwell of "The Washington Post", Dan Balz, also with "The Post", and NPR's Michel Martin.

Good morning to you all.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning.

RAJU: Good morning.

It has been a weekend for the president to say the least.

You know, we know the president is with his family at Camp David. We know this drumbeat of public pressure is growing from the outside.

Jeff, you talked to the Biden campaign pretty regularly. Is this having any impact on the president? These calls for him to drop out from the likes of big name columnists, from "The New York Times" editorial board? Is that affecting his calculus at all in any way?

ZELENY: Well, this morning, Sunday, you said he's meeting with his family at Camp David. That is a preplanned meeting. They're actually doing a photo shoot this afternoon, we're told, with Annie Leibovitz. So it's not an emergency family meeting.

But of course, this will come up. How could it not? But based on all of our reporting, all of our conversations over the weekend, we do not know how it's affecting the president's mindset.

Obviously, this is not helpful, but in terms of what he's planning to do, he is all in. And that does not appear to have changed.

But the waves of panic that were really still are coursing through the party have now given way to a couple of questions, and the Democratic pollsters are working this weekend for the campaign to try and find them out.

A, is he going to be a drag on the ticket in House races? In Senate races?

B, is -- are his troubles going to expand the battleground map?

[08:05:02]

Is Donald Trump suddenly in a more of a strong position in a state like Minnesota or Virginia? Could those be battlegrounds?

But the biggest question of all, if not him at the top of the ticket, then who?

RAJU: Yeah.

ZELENY: One top Democrat told me yesterday a true succession plan does not exist. That's what makes all of this not just heartbreaking, but very problematic. And that --

RAJU: That's the issue.

(CROSSTALK)

ZELENY: -- succinctly.

RAJU: Absolutely. And, Dan, you wrote about this in "The Post" yesterday just about, trying to how it wouldn't you know, you compare this to back what happened after Lyndon Johnson stepped down and then the scramble and what happened there. The Republicans ended up winning the White House.

But what's interesting is that is this is how the Biden campaign is messaging the talk about a replacement right down as they try to tamp down all the talk that perhaps someone could step in. This is an email that went out to supporters last night.

Rob Flaherty, the Biden deputy campaign manager, said: Joe Biden is going to be the Democratic nominee, period. End of story. And if he were to drop out, it would lead to weeks of chaos, internal food fighting and a bunch of candidates who limp into a brutal floor fight at the convention.

DAN BALZ, WASHINGTON POST CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: That's exactly the message that they are trying to drive home publicly and privately. But in addition to that public effort that they're doing, they have been doing an enormous amount of outreach and hand holding and, if you will, temperature taking among people who might be potential successors if the Democrats decide they want to do it.

The reality is the process would be very, very difficult. I mean, I think if, if, if he were to voluntarily step aside, my guess is that he would say Vice President Harris should be the nominee, then the question is, do others go after that? Do others try to take her down?

They're right in the in the sense that this would be a very messy situation. And I think that the other reality is that all of the people who we've talked about as potentials, and mostly it's some prominent governors, Governor Newsom or Governor Whitmer or Governor Pritzker or Shapiro, these are not people who are well known nationally. They've not been vetted nationally. They're not prepared to suddenly run a big presidential campaign.

So there would be enormous risks beyond the whole obstacles of the process. There would be enormous risks of swapping him out. But the other thing that I've picked up in the last 36 hours is while people recognize the campaign's argument, there is a tremendous amount of anger about the situation that the party is now in.

RAJU: And because Biden decided to run at this age.

You know, you mentioned about the fact that there are these other candidates who could run in, who could run, but they're not well known. And that is something that the Biden campaign is actually trying to hammer home in a pretty extraordinary email, that same message that went out to supporters last night, they talked about the Democratic bench, the other people who could potentially replace him.

They shared some Democratic polling data showing that people, even the vice president of the United States, they contend, would not do better than Joe Biden. Is that a -- is that the reality of the situation?

MICHEL MARTIN, NPR "MORNING EDITION" HOST: You know, one of the things that's really struck me about this campaign all along is how there are really two campaigns, or there should be. I mean, there's the campaign of people who pay attention and there's the campaign of directed at the people who don't, you know, we're all aware of the people who pay close attention. I mean, we know that the polling shows there is an enthusiasm gap that Trump supporters are really behind him. And Biden supporters are sort of behind him.

But what's really shocking to me, when you sort of go out on the trail and you talk to people, is how many people don't really see a difference. They really don't. They say things like, well, I mean, I'm talking to say, a Muslim person who I know very well who said, oh, it's a difference between a person who wants to kill us and a person who will let us die -- and speaking about Gaza.

With African Americans, they're like, what's the difference? He didn't really fight for us on certain key issues. And I just think that it's -- I think that we're sort of having

trouble sort of locking in on how many people really -- it's not that they haven't locked in yet is that they really don't see the difference.

RAJU: Yeah.

MARTIN: These two old white guys who don't really represent them. We see this particularly with younger voters, younger voters who say they're not excited about either one.

And I just think that this campaign has to figure out how to deal with both of those campaigns. The insiders who are really upset and angry and panicked and this big population of people --

RAJU: Yeah.

MARTIN: -- who don't, who aren't into him at all.

RAJU: But that's such a good point because the apathy in some ways has to be a bigger concern for the Biden team, because the Trump base is energized. They're behind him. The Democratic base is not.

Voter apathy, as Michel was talking about, is a real issue.

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL, WASHINGTON POST "EARLY 202" CO-AUTHOR: It's absolutely an issue. That's been an issue this entire campaign, even before Thursday night's debate. And it's not just voter apathy that they have to be worried about, but it's also a third party candidates that they have to be worried about, in some states, too. RFK is, you know, still trying to get on some ballots.

[08:10:03]

But the Biden campaign has of late been more worried about Jill or, Jill Stein, lately because she is on more state. So it's not just voter apathy, it's now people who are now seriously perhaps looking at a third party candidate more seriously than they were before the third -- before Thursday's debate.

RAJU: And obviously, we saw Biden over the weekend. We did see he was behind closed doors talking to donors, trying to. Those were the people that do matter a lot. Will they keep giving him money?

This is a real urgent moment for Biden, not just for their own party, but ensuring that he doesn't fall further behind on money, as we've seen, the Biden campaign has been behind him recently as Trump has surged in money in terms of cash on hand in the aftermath of his conviction by Trump using that to rally his base and his donor base.

But behind closed doors, there was an interesting tweet from, one, a former Trump aide, Anthony Scaramucci, who was talking to who was at this long island fundraiser. He said, President Biden needs to appear unscripted settings and handle fair but tough questioning. Further demonstrations of his ability to read from a teleprompter will not assuage my concerns. Now, Scaramucci supports Biden now. He was at that fundraiser. He

heard Biden.

Biden is trying to show that, you know, he this is a problem in the debate. I get it, but I can do this. I can handle it.

But what Scaramucci is saying here is that you got to do it in an unscripted setting, and we have not seen that from the president yet.

ZELENY: We certainly haven't. And, I mean, the question of all of this is this really takes it back to this conversation back several months, the Biden campaign, I think the president himself largely had cleared the hurdle from the State of the Union onward, thinking, you know, I guess maybe he can do this. He gave a long speech, then some back and forth.

It was not unscripted. I mean, it was scripted, but he's had a few scripted moments. But the reality is, the Biden we saw Thursday night is largely closer to the Biden we see every day at the White House. So that is the challenge that they have.

And something else, and this is, again, all this criticism is coming from people who generally like President Biden from the inside. But someone told me when they made the decision to run in November 2022, in Nantucket that weekend, the Bidens got together. After the midterm, he's diminished considerably since then, or he's aged since then and perhaps even since the State of the Union.

So that is the big unknown here. And the risk, I mean, they're --

RAJU: Basically --

ZELENY: -- going in one direction. So it's a -- it's heartbreaking in the words of a Biden adviser. He said he deserves our respect and space to reach any decision.

But that's the bottom line. Jill Biden and President Biden, the only two people who could make.

RAJU: Do we think that Jill Biden is 100 percent with this campaign at this moment, and continuing on?

BALZ: There's no evidence to the contrary. I mean, everything that she has done, you know, since the debate, I think, reinforces the idea that that she and he believe that they're going there going forward, they are not going to get pushed out of this. They are not going to listen to people who say they should, that he should step down. She's totally behind him. I think she always has been.

But I think he too, is dug in with the idea that he's still best able to carry this campaign forward.

But, you know, the debate was a huge gamble, right? He wanted an early debate because they wanted to change the trajectory of the campaign. And I think the campaign believed that had he performed the way they hoped, he would, they might be able to break this campaign open, not wide open. We know this is going to be a close election, but move it in his direction in a -- in a, you know, demonstrable way.

Instead they they've dug that hole deeper and they've now got to come out of that and try to move forward.

RAJU: Well, we shall see. We're going to assess that, of course, in the days ahead and today as well.

All right. Coming up, some Democrats are running from questions about Biden quite literally. Will he drag them down in November?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:18:29]

RAJU: Call it a crisis of confidence in the Democratic Party, with members plainly worried that President Biden may sink their chances at holding on to power in the Senate and could give the GOP another two years in control of the House. With a daunting map, Democrats already face an uphill battle to hold on to the Senate, and the House could come down to about 20 or so toss up races.

The message from a lot of Democrats is this: worry about your own fate, and don't tie it to Biden's.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: As Biden as the president, as your nominee. Does it make it harder? Does it make it harder to keep the House?

REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): I'm a member of Congress. You know how I am, Manu. I knew I win my district based on me. I'm out there. I work my district.

I help deliver my district for other candidates, too. So one night does not -- it wasn't --

RAJU: It doesn't cost you the House.

DINGELL: No. One night is not going to cost us the House.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Hi, Leigh Ann. You were talking -- you have been talking to a number of House Democrats. They've had some reaction when they're not on camera. Their actions a little blunter, shall we say.

You have some choice quotes here. There are a lot to get through FML I don't need to spell that out.

Then there's the reaction from home, one told you, for everyone has been loud and unanimous. Now we go home and we hear it in person on July 4th. Can't imagine he lasts.

I mean, the real fear is that he's going to sink the party. And --

CALDWELL: Yeah. RAJU: -- the -- if there are concerns that he could break down the rest of the ticket, that's when the calls for him to drop out will intensify.

CALDWELL: Absolutely.

[08:20:00]

And we also have to watch polling, too. Those could really intensify calls for him to drop out, too.

But there's multiple concerns here. These Democrats obviously do not want Donald Trump to be the nominee. They think he's an existential threat to our -- the democracy. But they're worried about their own races as well.

I had heard, you know, from -- after the debate Thursday night, still into Friday, that there could be a group of Democrats that would actually come forward and publicly and call for Biden to drop out. I'm not sure where that stands now with as the Biden campaign has been working adamantly to keep people on their side.

But these Democrats are absolutely worried. They before this debate, they were already thinking that they were going to be the ones who were going to lift Biden at the top of the ticket. Usually, the top of the ticket helps down ballot. Democrats have been believing that they were going to help Biden at the top of the ticket.

And so now, you know, they are absolutely nervous about their own races and maintaining control of Congress.

MARTIN: But I think that still could be true. I mean, you look at Maryland, obviously, Maryland's a very sort of Democratic state, but if Maryland had an Electoral College, Electoral College for governor, they'd never have a Democratic governor, because the outer counties, the more rural counties are very Republican-oriented, you know, so quiet as it's kept.

Okay, in the Democratic primary, you had a self-funded white guy candidate, David Trone, whose argument was, I may not be who you want, but I am who you need, right? Like it was sort of a Biden argument. I'm who you need to beat the Republican. Didn't win. An African- American woman won.

Now she's 11 points up over the Republican, who was a very popular Republican governor, very independent Larry Hogan. He's a person who even Donald Trump endorsed him. He said, I don't want it.

So he has a great reputation in the state. But she's still 11 points up. Why? Because her argument was, I'm a -- if you don't ask for who you want, you'll never get who you want. And I'm who you want.

And that argument is prevailing. So I really do think it depends on where you are, the strength of the candidate on his own or her own, and whether there's enthusiasm for that candidate. I think that theory still prevails. RAJU: Yeah. And that's the theory that a lot of the Democrats who are

in these swing districts, hope will prevail come November. One of them is from New Jersey. Mikie Sherrill. I asked her about her confidence at the top of her ticket.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Do you have confidence in Joe Biden as your party's nominee after last night?

REP. MIKIE SHERRILL (D-NJ): You know, I think it was a rough night, but I think what really stood out to me was the fact that Trump denied three times that he would accept the results of a Democratic election, that he's proud of overturning Roe, and that he is proud of the insurrectionists. I think that's a man who will not stand up for democracy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And then Hakeem Jeffries, a Democratic leader, went on to tell reporters on Friday. He said: We're going to do everything that we need to do as the House Democrats to win. Talking about House Democrats.

Really, the overall issue here is that they're trying to separate themselves out from the top of the ticket. Can that -- is that effective? Can they do that in this election cycle?

BALZ: It's going to be -- it's going to be very, very difficult. But yes, to some extent they can and they can, you know, that they can do it in subtle ways. They can do it with where money is spent, you know, how the Democratic National Committee ultimately does things, what the Senate committee and the House committee do? There are ways to do it.

But I mean, the first, you know, the first, you know, rule for somebody like Hakeem Jeffries is protect your own people, not the president. But as Leigh Ann says, the question is, how bad will it look in a few weeks? I mean, everybody's going to be watching those polls. Maybe they won't move that much, but if they move a little bit, then you're going to get another round of it. But then you're, you know, you're that much closer to the convention and that much more chaos that would happen if you try to make a change at the top.

RAJU: Before you jump in, Jeff, just to the point that these guys are making about the, you know, the less of the ticket trying to bring up Biden at the top of the ticket. Just look at Ohio and Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

The Senate Democratic candidates are, according to some polls, up a small number. Biden down, those numbers can the Democratic candidates lift up Biden come November?

ZELENY: It certainly is possible. In a state like Wisconsin, Tammy Baldwin, obviously, you know, is her own brand there. She's been very well known in Wisconsin. Good constituents, service. I have my eye on Minnesota. What does this do to Minnesota? We kind of

think of as the reddest blue state, if you will. And in 2016, Trump narrowly lost to Hillary Clinton. It was a bit wider in 2020.

But Amy Klobuchar on the ballot in Minnesota, could she help lift Biden up? Perhaps. But I think that that does not get at -- I mean, if we are there by the fall, then the Biden campaign has some serious issues.

But a bigger thing is, I'm not sure that voters I mean, as Michelle was saying earlier, they sort of see them the same. I hear that all the time as well.

[08:25:00]

And are people as afraid of a second Trump term as the Biden campaign would like them to be? I'm not sure about that. I hear that from voters all the time. Well, we survived one. You know, there's not that much difference. Let's move on.

So the problem for the Biden campaign is keeping enthusiasm up.

RAJU: Yeah.

ZELENY: Do people not just -- not even go to third party? Maybe they just won't vote.

So there are many, many deep questions here. But again, President Biden is at the center of it all regardless of "The New York Times" and other papers, which he has respected over the years. This is a decision he has to make.

RAJU: Yeah.

ZELENY: And again, no evidence. As we sit here today on Sunday, that he's anywhere near changing.

RAJU: I want you to just watch, see how Biden has changed, simply say, over the years, since the 2012 debate, the 2020 debate and 2024 debate, and what they hope voters will look past.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)

REP. PAUL RYAN (R-WI): It's been done before. It's precisely what I'm proposing.

BIDEN: It has never been done before.

RYAN: It's been done a couple of times.

BIDEN: It has never.

RYAN: Jack Kennedy lowered tax rates, increased growth.

Ronald Reagan --

BIDEN: Oh, now you're Jack Kennedy?

Between 750 and a thousand people a day are dying. When he was presented with that number, he said it is what it is. Well, it is what it is because you or who you are. That's why it is.

What I've been able to do with the -- with the COVID. Excuse me, with -- dealing with everything we have to do with -- look -- if -- we finally beat Medicare.

(END VIDEO CLIPS)

RAJU: I mean, could they get voters to look past that?

MARTIN: Well, I mean -- I don't give them advice, but my thinking is, are people paying attention to that? I mean, the people like us who -- this is our job. We pay attention to that. I'm not convinced that the people who are the least interested, the least you know, interested in this kind of thing are paying attention to that.

I think what they're paying attention to is, is my life better, right? And that to me is the question that's on the table. Is my life better not how he performs on television at 9:00 at night?

RAJU: Yeah.

BALZ: And, Manu, I think that's a that's an important message that the Trump campaign is going to push. They're not going to make this campaign about Biden's age. They want to make it about immigration and inflation. And some of the things that Trump said in that debate, beyond the lies that he told consistently, which is that your life was better under me than it is under Joe Biden.

RAJU: Yeah. And the question is, can Biden make the case that it wasn't? He obviously struggled to do that on Thursday.

All right. Next, we know what elected officials think, but what about actual voters? Two pollsters will join me to discuss how the debate could translate in the polls.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:31:46]

MANU RAJU, CNN HOST: For all the talk about how much damage the debate may have done to President Biden's reelection chances, the answer will become clear in the coming days and weeks.

In CNN flash polling taking with debate watchers right after the match up, a majority of viewers said Trump won the night. His margin more than 30 points. So what exactly will that mean.

To help answer that question, I'm joined with Democratic pollster Margie Omero and Republican pollster Brent Buchanan. Thank you both for coming in. So in that same CNN flash poll, there's 14 percent of debate watchers were reconsidering their vote. 5 percent had changed their minds. So Margie, you're a Democratic pollster, what concerns -- what are you -- because if you're looking at polling that's going to be coming in? What are you going to be most concerned about as you examine these numbers and how they may move.

MARGIE OMERO, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Yes, it's good to clarify that we should be looking differently and considering differently people who watched the debate live, people who watched coverage after the fact, views on who won that debate are very different from views on how your own vote may change.

And the fact that even a poll of debate watchers, which if I'm not mistaken that poll was a little bit more Republican just by the nature of who was watching the debate. That was methodological note about that poll.

Most of those voters said it wasn't changing their mind, and that wasn't even actually pressing them on the vote, it's just would you consider somebody else?

So all the polls that I've seen, it's Sunday, the debate was Thursday. There haven't been a lot of polls since then. They are, you know, online polls done on Friday. So those are folks who are, you know, just getting caught up to how they feel and consuming the coverage.

And we're going to see how this changes. It may have an effect, it may not have an effect. I watched the debate differently than I think most people did. And then I was in focus groups on a different topic altogether on debate night,

I watched a day of coverage, then I watched the live focus groups that all the different networks did. And then I watched the debate.

I don't think anybody is going to (INAUDIBLE). But when I want you --

RAJU: Maybe Brent is.

OMERO: So when I watched those focus groups, people -- people who are watching it live without the coverage they answered it a little bit differently. They're like they dialed up on Biden or they said, I like what Biden said about this. I felt Trump dodge that question.

So I don't know what we're going to see in the next week or so, but we should think about these different pieces differently.

RAJU: Yes. And so how do you see it?

BRENT BUCHANAN, REPUBLICAN POLLSTER: Well, if you look at the CNN poll specifically, there was a voter segment that really stuck out and it was ticked off diverse young working-class voters. And that's the exact same segment that we identified back in April as being key to this election.

But as Margie was saying, that that segment actually doesn't tune into a whole lot of what's being said anyways. And they're not watching the debate they're watching what's said about the debate afterwards.

RAJU: I want you both to weigh in on what the Biden campaign had said about this -- first, they we will talk about how you see it on your screen here.

This is what Jen O'Malley Dillon, the Biden campaign chair said about all this.

[08:34:47]

RAJU: She said if we -- she said, "If we do see changes in polling in the coming weeks, it will not be the first time that overblown media narratives have driven temporary dips in the polls."

It went on to say, "Media coverage of Obama's first debate performance were driven by a temporary drop in polling." They said it because Democrats, fewer Democrats were answering their phone calls in the aftermath of that.

Is that -- do you buy that argument.

BUCHANAN: You know, I think this hurts Biden some on the dip and I don't think it adds a whole lot to Trump's ballot share. But we have to realize is we're in a hyper-partisan environment still and so there's a floor for both of these candidates because ones a D and ones an R.

RAJU: And speaking of the debate -- the 2020 debate, 2016, 2012, 2008 -- about four points were gained by the other side. The person who was perceived to be the winner, I should say in 2008.

But do you agree with the Biden campaign that there may be a surge for Trump, but it's because your Democrats are (INAUDIBLE).

OMERO: I don't know. I think that's, you know, too early to be seen. I think we should not think of Democratic respondents to polls the same way as we think of, you know, folks that you're talking about who were answering questions about the debate.

But I do think that people want to make their voice heard and making sure we have respondents who are not just the folks who like to take surveys, but the folks who don't like to take surveys.

That's another difference between the immediate flash polls and those that are going be in the field over the next week or so, is that you do a lot of callbacks.

Any pollster worth their salt doing not a flash poll but one that's a little bit longer will call people who are reluctant to answer the phone multiple times.

And look at the people who break off in the middle of the survey that people will say, oh wait, I don't want to be part of this and drop- off. How are they different looking at how those people are different by age or region, or something else. And that's how you get a picture of response rate and whether that's

-- that's happening because it's not just about the overall vote share. We're looking at both turnout and persuasion. Getting your base excited and also persuading the folks who, you know, are double haters or Republicans who are unfavorable toward Trump.

We talked about this last week, double haters want Trump to not run. So I think there's a lot that people need to sift through and it's going to take a little bit while to figure it out.

RAJU: And obviously age is a huge issue in this campaign. And obviously that was very clear on Thursday. This is just a "New York Times" poll before the debate. About 75 percent of Independent voters thought that Biden was too old to be an effective president; just 45 percent of Independent voters for Trump.

The question I guess I have for you is that even though we've seen Biden age and it was clearly an issue on Thursday, how much of that is already baked in among the electorate that it may not have as big of an impact as we may think.

BUCHANAN: Nobody woke up on Thursday morning before the debate or Friday morning after and said, I didn't realize Biden was old.

It was this is not news.

RAJU: There might a few, you know.

BUCHANAN: There was nothing Trump was going to say in that debate that folks said, oh, I didn't know he was ever going to say something like that. None of this is new information. And so I think what it actually does is it makes people more hyper aware of his actions as an older president, not the fact that he's old.

RAJU: Yes.

OMERO: Well, and Trump's not really reaching out to any Democrats at all so that's another thing that's important here, and that's why you see Trump's simply has no crossover support among Democrats.

RAJU: Yes. All right, we shall see. There'll be a lot of polling coming up and we'll dissect it.

I suspect you're be back breaking it all down as well.

OMERO: Thank you.

RAJU: All right. Coming up, the Supreme Court expected to deliver a major ruling tomorrow that could have massive implications for former President Trump and the November elections. Two legal experts join me next.

[08:38:27]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) RAJU: Just this past week alone, the Supreme Court has ruled on an array of monumental cases from abortion rights to January 6 obstruction charges, to a seismic decision that curtailed the power of federal agencies to regulate on issues of the environment, workplace safety, and public health.

The final day of opinions is tomorrow when the justices are expected to weigh in on whether Donald Trump is shielded from prosecution over his efforts to overturn the 2020 elections.

It all comes amid waning public confidence that the Supreme Court with just 28 percent of Americans seeing it as fair and impartial without a political agenda. That's according to a recent poll.

So I have two legal experts joining me now to break it all down, CNN legal analyst Elliot Williams and former federal prosecutor Elise Adamson. Thank you guys for joining me. Great to see you.

ELISE ADAMSON, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Thank you.

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Thanks.

RAJU: All right. So obviously, huge week that will have major ramifications for years to come. Tomorrow, the immunity decision is coming down. How do we -- you've been looking -- reading the tea leaves. You heard the oral arguments. What are you expecting to see?

WILLIAMS: There's a broad consensus on the Supreme Court. I think to send it back to the trial court to figure out the distinction between what is a private act of the president and what is an official act of the presidency?

They seem to think there was a little bit of gray area between the two and even if there isn't, it's not up to them to decide.

That's their view. They could have, but they seem to be choosing not to. And so I think they sent it back to the trial court to sort that out.

RAJU: And what are the implications if that happens?

ADAMSON: Yes, the implications is that -- there's no way this trial is going to happen before the election, right? Because to answer those questions, they're going to have to have evidentiary hearings, which is going to take an extremely long time.

Then after those hearings, it was findings or maybe they may move to appeal again. And so it is very unlikely that this case will ever see a jury anytime soon.

RAJU: So they want to uphold a lower court's decision and allow the case to go forward. That just seems highly, highly doubtful.

ADAMSON: Highly unlikely given what we heard in oral argument. I don't know what Elliot thinks about that.

[08:44:49]

WILLIAMS: Yes. To be clear, they could have, they could have resolved this back in December the first time it came their way.

They could have resolved it relatively quickly after oral arguments back in late April.

And they can make a decision saying that we believe that presidents aren't immune from prosecution, or these are the circumstances under which we believe presidents are immune from prosecution.

Based on the questioning of I think probably six of the nine, if not more, they seem to be flirting with the idea that this is really up to the trial judge to figure out.

RAJU: And as that potentially could get delayed the case involving January 6 and efforts to overturn the election what about the other federal case. That dealing with allegedly about how Donald Trump allegedly mishandled classified documents and the like, everything that happened in Mar-a-Lago.

The judge in that case has gotten enormous amount of scrutiny over just simply allowing a number of these hearings to move forward and really delaying, according to critics, moving forward with this trial.

Sheep put out a -- she, defended herself on Thursday, saying, "There's a difference between a resource-wasting and delay-producing mini-trial on the one hand, and an evidentiary hearing geared to adjudicating the contested factual and legal issues on a given pretrial motion to suppress."

That is Judge Aileen Cannon down in Florida about this Mar-a-Lago case. Is there any validity to the criticism that she is delaying this case in some ways, people say to help Trump? Is that a valid criticism?

ADAMSON: I actually think it is. I mean look, what she just said is true. I think there are times where you need to have evidentiary hearings and factual issues, but you don't need to have evidentiary hearings on every single motion that has been filed.

And that seems to be what's happening and what I find extraordinary. I didn't see it when I was practicing as a prosecutor. I don't see it now that I'm practicing as a defense attorney.

It's just not done. A lot of these issues could easily have been -- have been resolved on the papers. And she has declined to do so.

So what the criticism is well this is undue delay, I think there is validity there because why aren't we ruling on the papers when we're faced with well-settled legal precedent.

RAJU: Yes. What is the argument for her to allow for all these hearings to move forward? Is there a valid one?

WILLIAMS: No. Well, let's put it this way. A quirk of our system is that you're stuck with the judge you get barring extreme circumstances. The judge would have to be ruling in such an egregious manner, so outside of the law that even appeals courts couldn't deal with that person.

And judges serve for life and, you know, some days you get ones that favor the prosecution. Sometimes you get ones that favor the defense. And sometimes is you get ones that the favor of the defendant that's in the courtroom and I think you have some of that here.

So is there a basis? Do I agree with many of her rulings? Of course not. But at the end of the day, that's just the consequence of the system --

RAJU: Yes.

WILLIAMS: -- and that's we give these folks tenure for life and you take the ones you get and sometimes the prosecutor, you just lose.

RAJU: And things work out to Donald Trump's favor.

WILLIAMS: Yes.

RAJU: He says two-tier system justice. He's actually used the justice system to his advantage on so many issues, including getting a favorable judge here in Florida.

Meantime, Steve Bannon, the former Trump adviser, current Trump, very Trump ally. He's supposed to report to prison tomorrow. He of course, was convicted after defying a congressional subpoena with contempt of Congress charges.

The House Speaker advocated on his behalf, actually intervened to try to prevent him from going to jail. The House Republicans did.

I asked Jim Jordan, who is the House Judiciary Committee chairman about whether they were doing this to essentially help one of their allies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JIM JORDAN (R-OH): I was one of four for people who stood up at the time on the floor and defended Steve Bannon and said this is wrong, what they were doing.

RAJU: You're probably doing this because he's a Trump ally.

JORDAN: No. I'm doing it because it's wrong. It's ridiculous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Is there any justification for House Republicans intervening like this?

ADAMSON: No. And I say that because Steve Bannon has been treated very fairly and he has been in a perfect example of when the criminal justice system works. Right he was referred for prosecution. He was indicted. He was then tried by an impartial jury. He then appealed that conviction and his sentence was stayed.

Meaning he didn't have to go to jail immediately like most defendants because the trial court found that there was likely -- the likely legal precedent would be overturned on appeal. That is fair.

That was the trial judge who said, you can stay out while we -- while the appeals court takes a look at this.

RAJU: Fair -- very quickly -- fair punishment for Steve Bannon.

WILLIAMS: Oh, absolutely. Fair punishment for Steve Bannon. He defied a subpoena and went through the process. He's done.

RAJU: All right. Thank you, guys for that.

Up next, ahead of the 4th of July, a rare moment of bipartisanship on Capitol Hill. Remembering those who made the ultimate sacrifice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOE MORELLE (D-NY): Look, we're not Democrats or Republicans. We'll come since were Americans.

[08:49:33]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RAJU: It has been a very partisan week, as it usually is, on the campaign trail and on Capitol Hill. But there was a moment this past week that brought the two sides together. Just look at the newly- redesigned wall in Capitol Hill's largest office building.

Through a feat of bipartisanship, the wall now serves as a vivid reminder of the thousands of Americans who made the ultimate sacrifice in the years following the September 11th terrorist attacks.

A brand new, redesigned Wall of the Fallen Memorial now sits in the Rayburn House Office Building's entrance. It displays the names of 7,054 fallen U.S. service members who gave their lives fighting in the global war on terror.

[08:54:48]

RAJU: Republican Congressman Bryan Steil, who chairs the House Administration Committee and the panel's ranking Democrat Joe Morelle helped lead the efforts along with other members as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: It reminds me of the Vietnam Wall.

REP. BRYAN STEIL (R-WI): It does in many ways in a sense. You recognize that it's men and women, you know. There's a guy -- this guy who went to high school year before me who died, right. And it's a recognition of the service that they provide to our freedoms and liberties that we cherish here. (END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Every once in a while, the lawmaker said, it's easy for Congress to come together.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MORELLE: When we talk about the freedom, the life that we enjoy as Americans, we really need to reflect on the fact that we would not have those if men and women weren't willing to go and to defend those freedoms and potentially give their lives.

And you know, Lincoln's great words, the last measure -- "the last full measure of devotion" to this nation we wouldn't be able to enjoy those without them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Some very important reminders as we head into the 4th July holiday.

All right. That's it for INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. You can follow me on X, formerly known as Twitter @mkRaju. You follow this show INSIDE POLITICS. And if you ever miss an episode you can catch up wherever you get your podcasts, just search for INSIDE POLITICS.

Up next "STATE OF THE UNION" with Jake Tapper and dana Bash. Dana's guests include Congressman Jim Clyburn, Senator Lindsey Graham and former Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

Thanks again for sharing your Sunday morning with us. We'll see you next time.

[08:56:13]

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