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Biden: Today Is A "Powerful Example" Of Why Our Alliances Matter; Americans Evan Gershkovich And Paul Whelan Released From Russia In Historic Prisoner Swap; WH Official: Harris Had Two Private Conversations On Prisoner Swap At Munich Conference In February. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired August 01, 2024 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00]

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: -- victory for these families of these people who were held. He said, innocently, they are innocent people. They were held without reason. And most importantly, the people who are coming home. He said, when he spoke to them, welcome almost home.

And Jim Sciutto --

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Yes.

BASH: -- one of the things that struck me before they got to the Q&A, which we can talk about in a second, allies matter.

SCIUTTO: No question. I mean, this was half a dozen countries involved. And he -- the U.S. President was asking for difficult things for them to give. He was asking for Germany to give up an FSB assassin who had attempted to kill on German soil in exchange, something they resisted, understandably. It's about rule of law in their country, they had to give that.

Norway had to give someone up, a prisoner, without getting someone in return, right? So this -- and this fits in with Biden's theory of the U.S. role in the war and the importance of alliances. That alliances are not purely transactional, as someone else currently running for president has often treated them and described them as in Donald Trump. That they involve long term relationships over time, where you give, they give, sometimes not at the same time and that by relying on each other together, you're stronger.

It's a demonstration. And you see it and this is a real tangible result of those alliances in the freedom of these Americans.

BASH: As you were saying with Norway, it's that there's a moral alliance --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

BASH: -- not just a strategic alliance. Real quick, Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Well, and the -- President Biden was asked this specifically what did the German Chancellor get in exchange because he gave him a specific shout out and he said nothing. And look how that stands in contrast with the tempestuous relationship that former President Trump had with Olaf Scholz's predecessor, the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel.

Those meetings when Trump came to Europe was so testy. And when you contrast that, this is what European leaders look at and hope they get on November the fifth year. They don't have a say.

BASH: Everybody stand by because we're going to sneak in a quick break and when we come back, we're going to bring you the latest on this massive prisoner exchange with Russia, including new reporting on Vice President Harris's role in the deal.

And we're going to go to Matthew Chance who has been reporting on and inside Russia for years about what he is hearing from Russian sources. Don't go anywhere.

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[12:37:11]

BASH: And we are following the breaking news. Americans Evan Gershkovich and Paul Whelan are now in U.S. custody after the biggest prisoner swap with Russia since the Cold War. I want to go straight to Matthew Chance, who is now in London.

But Matthew, you have spent a lot of time in Moscow and in the broader country of Russia. And I know that you're talking to your sources there. What are you hearing about Vladimir Putin and his decision to do this? And also as you answer that, curious about your reaction to what President Biden said when asked about whether he's going to talk to Vladimir Putin and he said, I don't need to do that.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, I mean, actually, I was very moved by President Biden's embrace of that young girl and the singing of Happy Birthday to her. It really reinforces the human aspect of what this deal was all about. You know, Alsu Kurmasheva, a U. S. Russian journalist who's part of this prisoner swap. It's an immensely happy, euphoric moment for her family and, of course, the family of Evan Gershkovich and Paul Whelan and Vladimir Kara-Murza and all the others that are part of this swap.

And so in that sense, it really is a big, you know, Biden tactical victory. But I think it's hard to escape the fact that strategically this is handed Putin a win. And it's a sort of validation of his strategy of taking bargaining chips and then using them to extract as many concessions as possible from the United States and from the West at large. And that's certainly what's taken place. And this -- of course, there's no guarantee that Putin won't continue with that in the future as well.

In terms of my contacts and what people in Russia are saying, well, it is remarkable. And I've obviously been texting people for the past couple of days trying to get them to comment on this and I'm getting really virtually nothing back. There has been something posted on Telegram by Dmitry Medvedev, who's the former Russian president, and he's, you know, he's become, you know, kind of very vitriolic and hard line in his stance. And he said this, I'd like to -- the traitors of Russia to rot in a dungeon, but sometimes it's more useful for them to bring our own people home. And so that's his justification for the Russians undertaking this swap, Dana.

BASH: Just one quick follow up for you, Matthew. Earlier today, you were telling one of our colleagues that this is a day of incredible moral compromise by the West. Can you elaborate on that?

CHANCE: Well, I mean, because it's not a like-for-like swap. I mean, we're talking about exchanging, you know, people who are essentially innocent of the crimes that they were convicted of like Evan Gershkovich, or, you know, critics of the Kremlin, pro-democracy campaigners, human rights activists, exchanging them for, you know, people like Vadim Krasikov, FSB Colonel, who murdered someone in, you know, cold blood, in broad daylight, in the center of a park in the Russian capital -- sorry, not the Russian capital, the German capital, Berlin.

[12:40:24]

We're talking about other people who are, you know, convicted criminals, cyber criminals, people who have dealt with drug, you know, kind of dealers and organized Bitcoin transactions for them. Other people who have been convicted rightly of espionage as well. So we're not talking about moral equivalence of these two groups of captives, these two groups of prisoners.

You're essentially seeing a situation where Putin is taking people, accusing them of wrongdoing and then swapping them for people who have genuinely done wrong. And that is -- has, you know, it must have been a big ethical dilemma for the Germans to agree with President Biden and surrender Vadim Krasikov. They did it.

But there would have been ethical and moral questions that they were agonizing over before they did it. And so I think that's something that we have to remember. This is a great tactical victory, but it's come at a cost.

BASH: Yes, no question. I mean, I can't wait to read your book about all of that, because I'm sure behind the scenes, all of those conversations were wrenching for all seven of the countries involved.

Thank you so much, Matthew.

And we are getting new reaction this hour from those in the 2024 presidential field. Here's Republican Vice Presidential Candidate J.D. Vance. A few moments ago, he spoke to our own Steve Contorno.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE (R), VICE PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Look, I think it's great news, at least what little we know. We certainly want these Americans to come back home. It was ridiculous that they were in prison to begin with. But we have to ask ourselves, why are they coming home? And I think it's because bad guys all over the world recognize Donald Trump's about to be back in office, so they're cleaning house. That's a good thing, and I think it's a testament to Donald Trump's strength.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: And Vice President Harris released a statement just moments ago saying, quote, "Today, we celebrate the release of Paul Whelan, Alsu, Vladimir, and others who were unjustly held in Russia. It gives me great comfort to know that their horrible ordeal is over and that they will soon be reunited with their families." POTUS, President Biden and I will not stop working until every American who is wrongfully detained or held hostage is brought home."

I want to go right back to MJ Lee at the White House. MJ, I know you're doing some reporting about Vice President Harris and some actions that she took over the past year dealing with this prisoner swap.

MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right. These are some conversations that Vice President Harris had going back a number of months, particularly the Munich Security Conference that the Vice President attended back in February. You'll recall that she did have a meeting with German Chancellor Olaf Scholz.

I'm told by a White House official that there was a moment when the meeting was wrapping up that she asked all of the staff in the room to vacate the room, and really asked for a restricted bilateral meeting. That means just one aide on each side remained in the room.

And it was in this private conversation with the Chancellor that the Vice President really stressed the importance of Vadim Krasikov as a part of this deal. This, of course, is the Russian assassin who was being held in Germany that U.S. officials now say was sort of the biggest fish that the Russians were going after. So this was a push that she had made back in February with the German Chancellor.

And then there was a separate meeting that the Vice President asked for at the same Munich conference with the Slovenian prime minister. And we are told that the main point of this meeting was for her to press the prime minister on moving forward with the release of two Russian nationals that were in Slovenian custody. Top priority for the Russians, as the U.S. officials had determined at the time.

When you look at the readouts of those meetings from back in February, Dana, they didn't mention discussions about this potential prisoner swap, which gets to the point of how sensitive and private those conversations were. And we should just finally know, you know, as Vice President Harris is now out there campaigning for the presidency, this is sort of the ongoing work that she would inherit if she were to win the campaign for the White House.

Of course, as we sort of watch the celebration of this moment and the release of those four Americans and four people that were -- the families that were here at the White House, we should just again remind everyone that it is also a bittersweet day for other Americans who still have loved ones that are abroad. Certainly we expect the Vice President to continue talking about that cause as well, Dana.

BASH: Yes. I'm glad you said that. And as Beth Sanner reminded us before, it was certainly a team effort. Obviously, the Vice President, we heard about the intelligence community, the President, Jake Sullivan, the national security adviser, and it went on and on.

[12:45:01]

OK, don't go anywhere because we are continuing to follow this breaking news. We are going to speak with the top Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee. That is next.

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BASH: Welcome back. We want to show you a brand new photo that was just posted by an editor of the Wall Street Journal, where Evan Gershkovich -- Evan Gershkovich, pardon me, works. He is on the left there. That is Evan Gershkovich.

[12:50:03]

In the middle, you see Alsu Kurmasheva, and then Paul Whelan on the right holding an American flag. Pretty remarkable to see that photo.

I want to talk more about all of this now with a ranking member of the House Intelligence Committee, Congressman Jim Himes of Connecticut. Your reaction to this, sir.

REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT): Well, Dana, you know, it's funny. The reaction is always the same, and it's maybe particularly personal for me because it was my constituent, Morad Tahbaz, who was freed in a similar hostage deal, you know, months ago. And so the -- it's obviously elation.

I mean, you know, if you have spoken to the families of the people who've had to go through this, you know what a -- just a euphoric moment it is. But of course, that euphoria is always tempered by the knowledge of the kinds of criminals that we trade innocent people for. And so, you know, I always think it's a moment of real celebration leavened by that fact that these deals are inherently, you know, inherently anxiety producing.

BASH: You are part of the so-called Gang of Eight when it comes to the highest ranking intelligence people who get the most important and classified intelligence on Capitol Hill. Did you have any heads up that this was going to happen?

HIMES: I did, Dana. I received a couple of briefings along the way from our intelligence community, from senior leaders in our intelligence community. So I wasn't caught by surprise. But, you know, one of the attributes of these deals is until people are, you know, stepping off of airplanes in neutral territory, the deal can fall apart. And so this was extremely close hold. I mean, the political sensitivities are just immense. You can -- I'm not necessarily attuned to German politics, but we were particularly concerned about the Germans because, of course, the Germans, you know, agreed to release a murderer, an assassin who had tried to kill the dissident on their territory. So, anyway, you see why the politics of this are so challenging and why this stuff has to be so close hold until --

BASH: Sure.

HIMES: -- hostages are, in fact, free.

BASH: Absolutely. You can completely understand it. You mentioned what happened in Germany and the prisoner who was in Germany, Krasikov. You were talking to my colleague Wolf Blitzer back when Brittney Griner was released and you said you didn't want him to be released because you didn't want China and Russia and Iran to get used to the notion that they just need to clip an American on their street, throw them in, and then they get a trade for the worst of the worst.

Given that, how do you feel about the fact that he is going to be freed? Maybe he already is free?

HIMES: Yes. Look, I mean, as I said before, every time -- and I have supported these deals, conscious of the fact that the people that we give up are really terrible people. Often assassins, often terrorists, often criminals, one variety or another. But again, it would be hypocritical for me to celebrate the release of Morad Tahbaz, which resulted in the freeing up a $6 billion of South Korean money for the Iranians and say, in this case, it shouldn't happen.

Of course, none of us want to see characters like this guy who was released from Germany go free. That's a guy who's going to go on and probably do terrible things. But I do think, you know, that civilized nations, including the Israelis, by the way, who regularly trade by factors of 10 to 1, they're captives for terrorists. I think at the end of the day, the calculus is that you do right by innocent people and by the family of innocent people.

BASH: Yes. I mean, Yahya Sinwar comes to mind when you talk about the Israelis. He was freed and then went back to Gaza and helped to mastermind the October 7th attack.

Thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate your expertise, Congressman.

Back around the panel now. Beth, I want to get your thoughts on something that, you know, I sort of joked about the mic drop at the end there for President Biden saying, you know, he didn't do it, talking about Donald Trump. But every situation is different, but there were prisoners --

BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Absolutely.

BASH: -- released.

SANNER: Yes. I mean, President Trump was --

BASH: Donald Trump.

SANNER: Yes. President Trump was very serious about hostage release. He put a lot of effort into it, was personally involved.

BASH: And I should say you were in the Trump administration.

SANNER: No, I was not.

BASH: Oh, I thought you were

SANNER: I was his intelligence prefer (ph).

BASH: OK, OK. But what I meant --

SANNER: Sorry.

BASH: Yes, I mean, let me rephrase that. You were there. You were in the government in intelligence --

SANNER: Yes.

BASH: -- while he was president.

SANNER: Yes.

BASH: Thank you.

SANNER: And we did have conversations in his intelligence briefings about the hostages and about their efforts to release hostages. And so I know from my personal experience that he was absolutely very committed to releasing Americans abroad. But, you know, when he released over -- he got over 50 released.

But he also had to make exchanges. He has -- so had to release prisoners in the United States and make deals.

[12:55:06]

So, you know, look, all American presidents generally are doing this, but they do it in different ways. And, you know, and so they have different results.

BASH: Jonah, I want to ask you about something that you just brought to our attention which is going back to the here and the now, Evan Gershkovich before he left Russia, what he did.

JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes.

BASH: Which is the ultimate reporter move.

GOLDBERG: Yes, no, it's great. The Wall Street Journal, as you might imagine, is flooding the zone covering the story and they have this, like, six byline piece and it's very long, it's very detailed, it's really good. And the kicker is talking about how the Russians negotiated what papers evident could take with them.

But they said one other piece of paperwork needed to be done. He needed to personally write out a letter asking formally for clemency addressed to Vladimir Putin. And they point out in his excellent High Russian Gershkovich wrote out this -- the required things, and then concluded it with asking him with whether Vladimir Putin would sit down for an interview with him.

Which I just think is just a great move and much riskier than, you know, you might -- you don't know what's going to screw this stuff up --

BASH: Yes.

GOLDBERG: -- right?

SCIUTTO (?): Yes.

GOLDBERG: And it was a great move.

BASH: Yes. It's just a reminder that he is an American reporter, which it is risky, but good for him.

GOLDBERG: Yes. Yes.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Who improved and perfected his Russian while he was in prison for 16 months. It's an extraordinary story. But also, learning just a little bit more --

GOLDBERG: Next time take a Berlitz class instead.

ZELENY: Yes, right. The -- what President Biden said today is an example of why you need friends in this world. I think that is a very short and simple sentence that will be repeated throughout the course of this campaign. Because as we traveled around the world with former President Donald Trump talking about America first and then again with President Biden at the beginning of his term said America is back.

This is a central question here now. Foreign policy is not necessarily at the center of this U.S. election, but this is something that will be remembered, I think, and it's extraordinary. And it'll be interesting to hear from former President Donald Trump on this as well.

BASH: Jim, you have done so much reporting, written books that include so much information in and about Russia and Russia's relationship with the U.S. and the broader West. Just some final thoughts on this moment.

SCIUTTO: Listen, for the families in particular, it's a happy moment relief, but remember that their fear was not just that their loved ones would remain in a Russian prison. Their fear was that they might die in a Russian prison. I spoke to Evgenia Kara-Murza just a few days ago and she was very fearful for his life, and rightfully so, given he had twice been poisoned by Russia to the point of death. And, of course, they watched the experience of Alexei Navalny who did die in a Russian prison, in a Russian penal colony. And I would just say we should have a moment for Yulia Navalny --

BASH: Yes.

SCIUTTO: -- and their daughter Dasha and son, given that, I am certain they are happy for these families as they would be, but there also has to be a part of them that just wishes Alexei Navalny might have been part of such a deal had he survived.

BASH: More than a part. It certainly would be for me if I were them.

Thank you so much for all of your excellent reporting and expertise.

Thank you for joining us here on this very, very important day on Inside Politics. We are standing by for a press briefing at the White House with National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan. And of course we will bring it to you live when it happens.

Don't go anywhere. CNN News Central will begin right after a quick break.

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