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Israel Confirms To American Officials That Hamas Leader Is Dead, According To Initial DNA Tests. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired October 17, 2024 - 12:30   ET

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[12:31:03]

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: We are still waiting on confirmation from Israel that Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar has been killed in a Gaza operation. Israel believes Sinwar was the mastermind of the October 7th attacks.

Joining me now is CNN's Nic Robertson and CNN's Oren Liebermann, as well as Retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling who is back with us.

Nic, as we are waiting and hoping that we get more information, can you just explain the significance of what this would mean to Israelis, what this would mean in the broader region, particularly as this region is in so much tumult right now?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes. And I think what it means for Israelis and what it means for the region, it depends in part when the dust settles and we can see what comes next. And I think that's an important point to make. I mean, it is important because Sinwar is and has been the face for Israelis to think about when they think about who organized the October 7th attacks.

Obviously, there have been a lot of other Hamas commanders and leaders taken out, specifically Mohammed Deif, who was the military commander of Hamas and plotted and planned as well along with Sinwar. And he was taken out in an Israeli airstrike on the 13th of July this year. He was replaced by Mohammad Sinwar, the brother of Yahya Sinwar.

So I have to ask myself at the moment, is -- has his brother survived? These two have been joined at the hip. They went through -- up through the ranks of Hamas together. His brother Mohammad was a hugely important figure in Yahya Sinwar's life. He was the one that helped get him negotiated and freed from Israeli captivity for the release of Gilad Shalit.

It was his brother Mohammad Sinwar who had hold of Gilad Shalit. They're incredibly close. And speaking to very senior Israeli officials about a month ago, they told me that they believed that Yahya Sinwar and his brother Mohammad were still traveling around together.

In fact, they had evidence that they might have been in Tel al-Sultan around the end of August, just outside of Rafah, on the edges of Rafah, barely a month ago. If his brother was killed along with him, then I think the picture becomes perhaps a bit different. There's a prospect perhaps of that injection of diplomacy that can be a break point, that can be a point for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to declare this as something of a victory and Hamas defeated.

But I don't think we're there yet. And Hamas has shown in the past that it will just replace up with somebody else. Sinwar, hugely important for October 7th, but him gone doesn't mean the death of Hamas.

BASH: That is so interesting. What important insight into what this means, particularly about Sinwar's brother.

Oren, you -- before covering the Pentagon for CNN, you were in the region for a long time reporting from there. What is your sense of how -- what people are saying, not only at the Pentagon, but what you're hearing from your sources still there?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is an incredibly significant moment. And perhaps crucially, it is a moment if he chose -- so chooses for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to claim the victory in Gaza that he's been looking for for a year.

Nothing rises to this level, not the killing of one of Sinwar's deputies, Mohammed Deif, some months ago, not dismantling Hamas's ability to carry out a fight. But the actual killing of Yahya Sinwar, the leader of Hamas, effectively in Gaza, the face very much of Hamas. This is a moment where Netanyahu, if he wants, can claim victory.

Crucially, from the U.S. perspective, it also opens up the possibility of restarting what were effectively dead ceasefire negotiations. And that now is expected to be, according to Western diplomats, a large focus of the talks with President Joe Biden heading for or arriving in Europe shortly here.

[12:35:02]

The Israeli government also now looking at this in its security cabinet meetings, looking to see what effect this has on hostage and ceasefire negotiations. And although we haven't reported official confirmation yet of Sinwar's death, we are already seeing some of the ministers and some of the highest levels officials in the government celebrating, such as the speaker of the Knesset, who, along with a picture of Sinwar and his body, tweeted a year ago he was successful. Now he is eliminated.

The minister of culture and sport also tweeting something in a similar vein. So you're seeing the messages start to come out here as we wait on official confirmation. It is an incredibly significant moment. And in light of the broader region that Sinwar and Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah were killed in such a short span is groundshaking in its importance for the Middle East.

BASH: Yes, it sure is. I believe, General Hertling, you're the only one of the four of us who has interrogated a terrorist. So given that information and given that experience, can you talk about this moment from that perspective, your immense experience and understanding of such a person (ph)?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I'll first, correctly heard (ph) but then I wasn't an interrogator, but I was there when the -- when many interrogations have gone on. And what you have to think about --

BASH: General Hertling, I'm so sorry. I'm going to interrupt you because we do have some news. I'm going to go to MJ Lee right now. MJ, what are you hearing?

MJ LEE, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Dana, I am told by a person familiar that Israeli officials have informed their American counterparts that there has been an initial DNA match showing that a man killed in a Gaza strike is, in fact, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar.

Israel, of course, as we have been reporting, has been running a whole battery of tests, DNA, dental records, fingerprints. But, again, our reporting, according to a person familiar is that Israeli officials have now informed American officials that there has been an initial DNA match showing that this person is, in fact, Yahya Sinwar.

I know you have been talking about this a ton throughout the course of your show, but this initial confirmation is going to be momentous for everything in the region, including, of course, the ongoing Israel- Hamas war. The continuation of this war has been a source of such frustration for U.S. officials, something that President Biden and now, of course, Vice President Kamala Harris has spent so much energy, so much political capital working on.

This is the person that in all of our reporting over the course of months, the U.S. officials have most often pointed to as perhaps the man if he were to be killed in Gaza could potentially shepherd in a new era in this conflict. And, you know, we'll see how the next coming hours and days unfold and all of the ramifications that could come, including, of course, the big question of who might potentially succeed him.

But again, our reporting right now is that, according to a person familiar, Israeli officials have told the Americans that initial DNA match has confirmed that the man killed is Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar. Dana?

BASH: Momentous news indeed. M.J., thank you so much.

I want to go back to Jeremy Diamond in Israel. Jeremy?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Dana, Israeli officials at this point here are saying that while initial rounds of efforts to confirm that this body was Yahya Sinwar have concluded and there are positive indications, they are not yet giving the final, final confirmation that this was indeed Sinwar.

And it does point to the care with which the Israeli government is really taking here to confirm beyond the shadow of a doubt that Sinwar was indeed killed. The notion that he was killed is certainly the one circulating among Israeli officials here clearly as MJ is reporting. Initial DNA testing results were shared with the Americans, indicating that this was indeed Sinwar.

But I am told that Israeli officials are still waiting for one final round of DNA testing in order to be able to make a public announcement that Sinwar has indeed been killed. I expect that once we get that, we will hear not only from the Israeli military spokesman, Admiral Daniel Hagari, but also, of course, from the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu.

And then the question, of course, becomes what comes next? How does this impact ceasefire and hostage negotiations? How does this impact the war in Gaza? Certainly, this gives Netanyahu an opportunity to present that picture of victory that he has been looking for for so long and would not be able to do so without the killing of Yahya Sinwar.

I'm also told that at this hour, there is a meeting ongoing between the Israeli negotiating team and members of Israel's security establishment, an emergency meeting, it was described to me as, in order to discuss the future of hostage and ceasefire negotiations, which we know have been stalled for weeks now as -- there has really not been much engagement from either Israeli or Hamas officials.

[12:40:15]

But, of course, there is also the possibility, as one Israeli source familiar with things told me, that this could result in chaos within Hamas and it could result in the lives of the hostages being put at risk, absent an immediate and clear successor to Yahya Sinwar, absent a strategic plan that Hamas' leaders would communicate to Hamas guards and other lower-level militants about what to do with those nearly 100 hostages from October 7th who remain in the Gaza Strip.

So a lot of questions and, again, still awaiting official -- an official confirmation and public announcement from the Israeli government about whether or not Sinwar was, in fact, killed.

BASH: Yes, they have been careful publicly, but as MJ reported, they are communicating that to their U.S. counterparts.

Nic Robertson, I want to bring you back in because you kind of opened the aperture a little bit. We are talking about the leader of Hamas eliminated by Israel. We are talking about the leader of Hezbollah eliminated in just a matter of weeks. Can you talk about it through that lens?

ROBERTSON: Sure. Look, I think there are a couple of ways to analyze it. One is that the hawks around Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu will say, look, we are doing so well right now. We are crushing Hezbollah in a way that perhaps exceeds what we'd hoped.

We are showing -- continuing to show success against Hamas, they don't have a credible military operation. We've taken out one commander, you know, in the case of Sinwar here. It presents -- it does absolutely present an opportunity for diplomacy to come in here and the -- for Prime Minister Netanyahu to sort of take the high road, if you will, to say we've got our victories. We've done well. Let's just lock this in with some arrangements, with some -- with a ceasefire and a release of the hostages and something else credible with Hezbollah where they don't come back to the border and continue shooting and firing rockets into Israel.

I think there are a lot in his cabinet who might still be uncomfortable about trying to bring all of these things together and saying that this is the moment to pause. Let's not forget, Israel is in the moment of waiting to decide when they will strike back at Iran for Iran strike two and a half weeks ago. There's a real hope that they won't escalate, that it'll be proportional, that they'll stick to military and intelligence targets and not go after nuclear sites and oil refineries.

But all of this is in the balance because what's in the balance for Israel is, is this the moment to absolutely continue, if you think you're crushing your enemies, to crush them further so that they don't come back? In the past, people have talked about mowing the lawn, going into Gaza, taking out a number of Hamas operatives there, doing the same in rounds of conflict with Hezbollah.

I think the perception in the cabinet is this is a different moment with a different set of opportunities and there might be a lot of pressure on the prime minister to set those pressures aside and take a different path --

BASH: Yes.

ROBERTSON: -- which is open here.

BASH: It could be very wide open. And Oren Liebermann, going back to you, I've been talking to sources who are sort of familiar with Prime Minister Netanyahu's thinking and one of the questions has been whether or not he has established enough capital, political capital inside Israel so that he can potentially, if he has the political will, push back against the right flank of his coalition that Nic was talking about that has been very vocal over the past year and even before that to say maybe this is the time.

Given your experience in the region, what are your thoughts on that? And also, if you could just add the reminder to our viewers that the U.S. is also now engaged in trying to continue to support Israel in the possibility, actually I would say, probability, that they still are going to potentially retaliate against Iran.

LIEBERMANN: So, from the perspective of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who built himself a tremendous amount of political capital with the assassination of Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah just a few weeks ago, that was a major move for him. You have seen it reflected in some of the latest polls in Israel.

There's no election coming up, but in Israel effectively there is always an election coming up. So the polls are constant and his numbers have improved there. This is absolutely certain to help.

[12:45:08] As I said a few minutes ago, it's really the first thing in a year of war in Gaza for Israel that Netanyahu can claim as a true victory. Israel's forces have killed many of Yahya Sinwar's deputies, have dismantled Hamas' ability to wage war. They have frankly leveled large parts of Gaza and we have seen the death toll there amongst the Palestinian population.

And yet from a purely political Netanyahu perspective, none of that was something he could claim as victory. This absolutely is, so we'll certainly wait to see first when Israel officially confirms it, second what he says and then how he plays this amongst his own coalition, because previously his far-right ministers had threatened to take down the government if there was a ceasefire.

Now, certainly the U.S. and others will try to push on that diplomatic window, negotiations that were dead just days ago, they see a window of opportunity here and they'll try to take advantage of that window. That's on the diplomatic side.

The military side is a very different story. Israel has promised to retaliate for an Iranian ballistic missile attack on October 1st. The U.S. is sending and has just sent an anti-ballistic missile defense system to Israel that's very much there, so the U.S. is very much engaged on the military side of this, ready for first Israel's expected attack and then Iran has vowed to retaliate for that.

At the same time, for example, just last night the U.S. struck the Houthis in Yemen, another Iran-backed rebel group. So this at least gives the possibility of trying to bring all of the fighting to an end. But as you point out, there is politics at stake here for Netanyahu, for others, and everyone's trying to figure out first what Sinwar's death would mean and second, how to move forward from this point.

BASH: Really. So well explained as always. Oren, thank you so much for that.

Joining me now is Democratic Senator Chris Coons, a senior member of the Foreign Relations Committee and co-chair of the Harris-Walz campaign. Senator, first, the reporting that you just heard from MJ Lee that the U.S. government has been told by their Israeli counterparts that it is, in fact, Sinwar. What is the impact of this from your perspective?

SEN. CHRIS COONS (D), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: This is a momentous day. If the leader of the brutal, murderous attack on October 7th by Hamas has, in fact, been killed, justice has been done. Yahya Sinwar is a bloodthirsty terrorist who has blood on his hands from Americans, from Israelis, from people from dozens of countries who were massacred on October 7th.

And it's important for us to take a moment and think about what Sinwar's goal was on October 7th. Why so much blood? Why so many innocent civilians killed? Well, first, because Hamas is an organization committed to the murder of Jews and the destruction of Israel. And it's important to keep that in mind, that their tactics and their approach puts the lives of innocent Palestinians at risk and took the lives of innocent Israelis and people from dozens of other countries on October 7th. But his core goal was to interrupt the path towards reconciliation, the end of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

Real progress was being made on Saudi Arabia recognizing Israel and Israel agreeing to a path forward that could achieve regional peace. So as your reporter was just commenting, having him gone, having Sinwar dead, on top of recent military accomplishments by Israel, striking Hezbollah, taking out one of its main leaders, pushing back on Iran's other proxies in the region, may create a moment, first, for the ceasefire and hostage deal that's been elusive for months.

John Kirby recently said that Sinwar was the major impediment. And second, might open an opportunity for getting back to that negotiated regional peace that will ensure Israel's security.

BASH: So many questions. The first, Senator, is, I realize that you are a United States Senator. You are not a member of the Knesset. But if you got a call from Prime Minister Netanyahu and he said, Senator, what should I do? Would you say, Prime Minister, take the win, declare victory militarily and move forward on that diplomatic path that they were on before Sinwar and other members of Hamas so brazenly and brutally interrupted with the attack on October 7th?

COONS: Yes. And, frankly, what I'd be saying is, let's take this moment and see if there is any chance at securing the release of the 100 remaining hostages. It is a core value of the Israeli government, the Israeli people, to leave no stone unturned in trying to free hostages.

[12:50:01]

And second, I'd say, let's make sure that we've done everything we can to weaken our opponents and allies and adversaries and to ensure there is a real path towards long-term security and peace. Ending the Arab- Israeli conflict, having Saudi Arabia recognize Israel and having the moderate Arab states embrace Israel would be a significant accomplishment for the people of Israel, for the region, and frankly, for the Biden-Harris administration that's been so central to these negotiations.

BASH: There are some who believe that the only way to make that deal with Saudi and to sort of open the door to all of the positive developments that you just said that you hope occur is for it to happen while Joe Biden is still president. Do you believe that?

COONS: I agree with that.

BASH: Why?

COONS: I do. Because a key piece of this would be the Senate ratifying a security treaty between the United States and the Saudi kingdom. That would be a significant stretch for many in the Senate if it is not also accompanied by a credible path towards future self-governance for the Palestinians.

BASH: And that is something that will be difficult to accomplish, but that Joe Biden has the credibility to get enough votes in my caucus in the Senate for that to move forward. It is possible, but the amount of time we have left is short.

I want to recognize that a bipartisan group of senators that's been led by Lindsey Graham and Ben Cardin has been hard at work on this for a year now, and that leaders in the Biden-Harris administration, their national security leaders, national security adviser, CIA director, and secretary of state have been hard at work negotiating it, but it would fundamentally change the region.

It would change America's involvement in the region, and it would open up the possibility of a genuine end to the cycle of violence and instability. If Israel can secure its future this way, that would be a remarkable accomplishment for all of us.

BASH: I want to go back to such an important point that we cannot lose sight of, which is 100 hostages still in Gaza, including four Americans still believed to be alive in Gaza. How does this huge, momentous, to use your word, development of Sinwar being killed, how do you get the hostages back now?

COONS: Well, it should lead to a redoubling of efforts. As you know, I'm close to Jon and Rachel Goldberg-Polin, whose son Hersh was a hostage who was taken from a peaceful music concert. He lost his arm in the Hamas attack on a bunker where he and a group of his friends were sheltering, and it was a near miracle that he survived for months and months and months, only to be killed by Hamas terrorists moments away from his rescue by IDF soldiers.

The heartbreak of his parents and the heartbreak of so many other hostage families from around the world has weighed on me and has weighed on many in Israel as there have been protest after protest. Let's take a moment, though, and reflect on what this means for the nation of Israel.

In May of 2011, I'll never forget the night that I got the news that Osama bin Laden had at long last been killed by American Special Forces. Yahya Sinwar is the equivalent of Osama bin Laden, a terrorist who killed thousands of people, innocents in a long planned plot that struck a deep blow and for which justice had to be done. This is a moment as significant as that.

BASH: Yes. And you use the word justice several times, and I think that is not something that we can lose sight of. And I'm glad that you brought that up because this is a singular horrible individual. And the connection and the comparison to bin Laden is noteworthy for American audiences.

Senator, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

COONS: Thank you, Dana.

BASH: And I want to go back to MJ Lee, who broke the story for us. MJ, what are you learning about the circumstances of Sinwar's death?

LEE: Well, Dana, clearly in the coming hours, we are going to get a lot more information probably about just the circumstances surrounding Yahya Sinwar's death, just where was he and how did it happen. You know, this mastermind of the October 7th attacks, probably the single head that the Israeli government and military has been on the hunt for this entire time.

Of course, it's important to point out that American officials, U.S. efforts have also been underway this entire time to try to, throughout the course of this conflict, share any intelligence possible in trying to locate Yahya Sinwar and his whereabouts.

[12:55:05]

But that task has been incredibly difficult and complicated just by the simple fact that he has been largely believed to be in hiding underground in this vast network of underground tunnels that Hamas has in Gaza. One U.S. official I was talking to who would not elaborate on some of the early intelligence surrounding the circumstances of his death, they did suggest that any moment when somebody like Sinwar would come out from underground and basically go above ground would have been a moment of weakness.

They said these guys come out of hiding and can never stay comfortable is what this U.S. official told me. I also just want to note for everyone just tuning in something that our colleague Kylie Atwood had reported just a little bit ago that according to one U.S. official, the IDF was actually surprised by Sinwar's death because the strike that killed him was not actually intended for him.

So just a remarkable picture coming into focus right now on the potential circumstances of the death of a man that again the Israeli government has been on the hunt for for so many years, Dana.

BASH: Yes. Yes. MJ, thank you so much for the great reporting. And I'm thinking of what Jeremy Diamond said earlier which is that he's been hiding in tunnels while the people he was supposed to be leading are left up and, you know, we know what has been going on in Gaza and it's just horrid.

Thank you so much. Appreciate it, MJ.

Thank you so much for joining Inside Politics today. CNN News Central starts after the break.

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