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Trump's Ex-Chief Of Staff: He Fits "Definition Of Fascist"; John Kelly: Trump Told Him "Hitler Did Some Good Things"; Democrats Seize On New Suggestions Of Trump's Authoritarianism; Harris To Take Voters' Questions At CNN Town Hall In Pennsylvania; James Carville Predicts Harris Win: "Of This, I Am Certain"; Harris: "Mine Will Not Be A Continuation Of The Biden Administration"; Obama Joins Popular NBA Podcast To Pitch Male Voters. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired October 23, 2024 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

DANA BASH, CNN HOST, INSIDE POLITICS: Today on INSIDE POLITICS, stunning words from a former Trump White House insider. John Kelly tells the New York Times, he believes Donald Trump meets quote, the definition of a fascist and warns his former boss would rule like a dictator if re-elected. Democrats are hoping that with 13 days to go, Kelly's words break through.

Plus, a critical night. Tonight, for Kamala Harris, she's going to take questions from undecided and persuadable voters at a CNN town hall in a state she cannot afford to lose, Pennsylvania. And we have a special report on the Jewish vote. Both campaigns are making an aggressive push for this tiny fraction of the electorate, because in a race this tight, that sliver of votes could have an enormous impact, especially where we went at swing state of Pennsylvania.

I'm Dana Bash. Let's go behind the headlines at INSIDE POLITICS.

We start with the comments, you really need to hear to believe. Here's what retired Marine General John Kelly, a man who used to run Donald Trump's White House, told Mike Schmidt of The New York Times.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KELLY, RETIRED MARINE GENERAL (voiceover): Certainly, the former president is in the far-right area. He certainly an authoritarian, admires people who are dictators, he has said that. So, he certainly falls into the general definition of fascist, for sure.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Now this is a man who was a four-star general and then spent 18 months by Donald Trump's side. He was in the room for critical conversations and meetings and on high level calls. So why is John Kelly speaking out now? Well, he says it's because of these recent comments on the trail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have two enemies. We have the outside enemy, and then we have the enemy from within. It is the enemy from within. They are, to me, the enemy from within.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: John Kelly's explosive words are coupled with a report from the Atlantic's Jeffrey Goldberg that while President Trump said, quote, I need the kind of generals that Hitler had. People who were totally loyal to him, that followed orders. Now that's according to two sources who heard the comment themselves.

The Trump campaign denies that and says none of that happened. But here is what you need to hear from John Kelly. Here is what he says about the former president's affinity for one of the most vicious and evil men in world history.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KELLY (voiceover): He would, he commented more than once that, you know, that Hitler did some good things too. And of course, if you know history, again, I think he's lacking in that. But if you know what history, you know, Hitler was all about, you'd be pretty hard to make an argument that he did anything good.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, what would you say when he said to you that Hitler did a lot of good things?

KELLY (voiceover): Well, I'd tell him that, I'd said, first of all, you should never say that. But if you knew what history Hitler was all about from the beginning to the end, everything he did was in support of his racist. fascist life, you know, the philosophy so that nothing he did, you could argue was good. It was certainly not done for the right reason, and -- but he would occasionally say that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would he say when you would lay that out to him?

KELLY (voiceover): He'd just, you know, he'd end the conversation easily.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: I'm lucky to be surrounded by some talented journalists today, Laura Barron-Lopez of PBS, CNN's Isaac Dovere, and CNN's Priscilla Alvarez and CNN's Jamie Gangel. We wanted to play a lot of this, and there's more audio of John Kelly speaking. And I want to talk Jamie to you first about this moment because there's so much incoming from Donald Trump, around Donald Trump, and that has been the sort of story line of the last nine years. Talk about this moment and how this is or isn't different.

JAMIE GANGEL, CNN SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT.: Well, I think it is different because even though General Kelly has said things like this in print reporters, he's talked to reporters on the record, but not on TV. I think it does make a difference when you hear his voice. I think it would be even more powerful if he went on TV.

[12:05:00]

And the other thing I think you have to remember about General Kelly is talk to people who've known him, worked with him. You can take his word to the bank. This is credible. And he did not want to do this. There is a feeling among general officers that they don't want to become political.

So, for him to speak out like this really is going the extra mile. I think the question now is, will we see General Milley, Mattis, McMaster, some of the others who are part of the inner circle also speak out.

BASH: Yeah. That is the question. And Isaac, you're in touch. I mean, you all are in touch with the Harris campaign. My understanding is that there is some frustration that Kelly, until yesterday, hasn't spoken out. He spoke to Jim Sciutto, our colleague for his book and others, and Jake Tapper. But this is different that Mike Schmidt actually convinced him, at least to have his voice heard.

But we do know from Bob Woodward's reporting about how Mark Milley feels and others. These are -- they are very powerful men with a lot of capital, if you will. And until John Kelly, they have not been aggressively speaking out in a way that say Liz Cheney and some of the women who work for Donald Trump, who are a lot younger and have -- you could argue, a lot more to lose with their future. Are you hearing that as well?

EDWARD-ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Certainly, and look, what we know is that John Kelly has known for years that Donald Trump was meeting his definition of what a fascist is, right? This is not recent comments or conversations that he's had with Trump. He's not the only one who has been privy to conversations like that, who has those thoughts and who has been sitting on it, right?

And so, from the Harris campaign, there is a definite feeling of, this is the moment to speak up if you have something to say, right? And that it goes from John Kelly through to George W. Bush, right, all across the Republican spectrum here. But it's also, I think, for voters a moment to think about this, that there are a whole bucket of reasons to vote for or against Donald Trump, for against Kamala Harris.

What we know is that if you are voting for Donald Trump, you are saying it is OK that people who have worked closely for him think that he is a fascist and think that he -- and can tell you stories of him saying, Hitler did some good things. And that's fine. And that either they wave it away or they say it's no big deal. And that is part of the calculus now, in these last couple weeks of the election for the people who are still deciding.

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, and this is also part of the argument that she is making on the trail. That those who know him best are saying these things about the former president. What was also interesting, I was in Wisconsin yesterday for the Obama, Walz's rally.

And what Obama also teased out when he was up on the stage was OK, the country is not where you may want it to be, speaking to voters but who is going to get you where you want to be? And he talked about the former president, and he talked about his coziness with authoritarian regimes. And that is also part of this bigger narrative that is being told right now by the vice president and her surrogates that, yes, we can all agree that there could be a better trajectory here.

But do you want to vote for the former president who, as you mentioned, and as Kelly has said, is saying openly that the former president is a fascist. And one other thing I'll note is that during the interview with Charlamagne tha God, the vice president said, yes. We can say that. And that was an evolution --

BASH: You mentioned, Governor Walz. He did speak out. He reacted to this last night. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. TIM WALZ (D-MN), 2024 VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Don't be the frog in the boiling water and think this is OK. As a 24-year veteran of our military, that makes me sick as hell, and it should make you sick. Trump is descending into this madness. A former president United States, and the candidate president United States says he wants generals like Adolf Hitler had. Think about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAURA BARRON-LOPEZ, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, PBS NEWSHOUR & CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean, objectively, it can't be overstated. To Jamie and Isaac's point, how big it is that these men that worked with Trump, right underneath Trump, served in the military, are saying these things about him and starting to go more and more on the record and more and more public about it.

Now the question is, does it actually help Harris and her campaign with winning over those moderates, those independents, those Republicans, their campaign thinks that it can. I mean, we saw this like even before this news with John Kelly came out, that she was going across the country with Liz Cheney.

[12:10:00]

Because her campaign believes that she may be hemorrhaging here or there at the margins with men across race and ethnicity and across age. But that she could potentially win over more and more women and more and more middle of the road voters who aren't happy with the direction and what people who worked for Trump are saying about him.

BASH: And just to kind of touch on one of the dynamics that you mentioned, that there are voters out there who either don't believe it, don't think it's real, don't think it will happen, or care a lot more about the fact that they want more money in their bank and they want their eggs to cost less, which is understandable. We were talking about an interview on our air with John Berman earlier, with Senator Bill Hagerty who was Trump's ambassador to Japan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BILL HAGERTY (R-TN): I worked both with General Kelly and President Trump in the last administration, and it was not a good fit. General Kelly has been on record many times criticizing President Trump. Obviously, he doesn't like President Trump. I would take that with a grain of salt. What Americans should be asking themselves this close to the election is who will represent our nation, who will put us back in a posture of strength? Donald Trump clearly can do that because he's done it before under his watch.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GANGEL: Senator Hagerty, he knows better. I mean, I really found that interview to be, frankly, astounding because Trump allies may dodge on things, but he really went after General Kelly in a different way, sort of dismissing what he had said as not credible.

BASH: Basically, he suggests that he's not telling the truth, which I've heard from other Trump officials this morning.

GANGEL: And there is not only can you take general Kelly's word to the bank according to be able to work with him, but there's actually no evidence of this. And General Kelly has been consistent. You go back. This is not really an October surprise. He told Bob Woodward years ago that Trump was dangerous, unhinged. He has talked -- he talked to Jake interviews. He's spoken to many of us.

So, the message has always been there, the stories, the quotes, have always been there. What happened today? And I think it's the reason that Senator Hagerty went after General Kelly is, it's the middle of October and they think he can make a difference.

BASH: And I kind of want to button this part of our conversation with how I started with you, Jamie, which is, it is a big deal to hear John Kelly talk the way he did for so long about his recollections of Donald Trump praising Adolf Hitler, like we have to just take a moment and take a breath and let that sink in.

But there have been so many things that have happened just since Labor Day. We have a list, and it's almost too much to put on the screen that would make any other candidate scramble and get into a lot of trouble. So, the question is, Laura, you're out. You talk to voters in swing states all the time. How impactful do you think this is going to be given the list that -- I think we can keep scrolling on that list, this is not open.

BARRON-LOPEZ: Well, I will say that from some of the moderate Republicans that I've talked to, people that voted for Trump in the past, those January 6 comments, you know, impact them. They don't like them. I've heard from a number of other voters about his attacks on immigrants.

Yes, does it help him with his base and with some shifting segment of the electorate, but it also upsets and angers a lot of other voters. And that's something that they're calculating and paying attention to. A lot of voters I've talked to know about his attacks on Haitian migrants and him saying that they're eating cats and dogs.

DOVERE: It's also a question for the Republican officials, because it's not just Senator Hagerty, right? I'm thinking about one of the Sunday programs done on CNN. Chris Sununu, the Governor of New Hampshire was on. He was asked about the enemy within comments from Donald Trump, and he said, oh, it's nothing new, voters know that.

Well, that's a question for Republican officials of what they will say is too much for them, right? We know that Donald Trump is constantly testing how far he can go. And when he gets to the boundary of it, he tests more.

And so far, he has not seen Republicans in any real number, certainly among Republican officials step away from him. In fact, they're all saying there's still form, including Chris Sununu, who was pretty opposed to Donald Trump being the nominee for all the reasons, now that he says voters don't care about.

ALVAREZ: But to Laura's point, I think that's what Republican voters are watching. I was at the town hall where the vice president was with Liz Cheney and talking to some of the Republicans in the room. They said, this isn't a party that I recognize anymore because -- not only because of the former president, but also because of the people he is surrounded with.

[12:15:00]

And this election, they said they'd be willing to vote for the vice president. Does that mean they're going to vote Democrat here on out? Probably not. But this point, they just don't recognize the --

BASH: Well, speaking of the vice president, we have a shot, I believe, of the stage set for Kamala Harris to take questions from undecided and persuadable voters at CNN town hall tonight. We're going to touch base with our terrific reporter, Jeff Zeleny, who was there waiting for this event. Don't go anywhere.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:20:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BASH: Tim Walz is one of the 23 million Americans who have already voted. He voted in person. As you can see there, that was this morning in St. Paul. He was there along with his wife and 18-year-old son Gus. One guess, who he voted for?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WALZ: I cast my vote for Kamala Harris. Amy Klobuchar, Betty McCollum and Ted, my son with me, Gus, to vote for the first time, exciting an opportunity to turn the page on the chaos of Donald Trump and a new way forward. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Tonight, his running mate will answer directly to people who have yet to vote. She joins CNN for our presidential town hall in the crucial battleground of Pennsylvania. That is where Jeff Zeleny is. Very early, waiting for people to get there at that town hall. Jeff, what are you learning as you talk to voters in Pennsylvania?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Dana, as you said, Governor Tim Walz has voted. So many millions of Americans now, 23 million and counting have voted. Vice President Harris is trying to reach those who have not voted. And the Harris campaign believes there is still a decent sliver here in battle ground Pennsylvania, as well as other battle ground states across the country.

People who are still making up their minds and deciding if they are even going to vote. So, her audience tonight is going to be some undecided and persuadable voters right here in Delaware County, not far from Philadelphia. But of course, she will be addressing a national audience as well.

Tonight, she had hoped would be a presidential debate with Donald Trump. He did not accept that. So, she will be taking questions here from voters. But what the campaign is really trying to do is show more of her, her personality, her policy, yes, and also just trying to fill in some of those blanks, what some people may be having questions about her candidacy.

She has been traveling across the country, of course, doing many of these as the campaign has set them up. This is the first time she will be taking questions from truly independent and undecided and persuadable voters. So, you know, this certainly can be an unpredictable moment for any presidential candidate, but she clearly sees this as a moment where she is trying to close the sale, if you will, 13 days until the election.

Of course, even as millions of people have voted. Again, she's trying to reach those who have not and even those who are deciding if they are going to vote. That perhaps is even more important than ever. The campaign believes this is incredibly close in all these states. But Dana, Pennsylvania, the biggest battle ground, with 19 electoral votes. That's why she's here.

BASH: Jeff, thank you so much. Back here, and Isaac I was in Pennsylvania on Sunday. It is amazing how many people have not yet decided. And as Jeff was alluding to several undecided voters I spoke to, and not that collar county, but another next to -- next to it, or near it.

Montgomery County said, they're just not sure about her. They don't have enough information. Now that information is certainly get able, but I think it's more than that. It's just a feeling. And I'm guessing you're hearing from your sources that that is a big part of what she needs to do tonight.

DOVERE: For sure. And that's why you're going to see her do not only the town hall on CNN, but the Brene Brown podcast on Friday. These things that they are trying to do to get her out here. But in fairness, she has only been running for president for like 80 days here. But it is part of the hurdle that the campaign knows even now, 13 days before election day, they still have here.

I had a story yesterday about how they're looking at these closing two weeks, and a lot of it is making the case to voters that a second Trump term would be worse, as Priscilla was getting into, and what Obama said last night in line with that. But it is also saying to voters who are -- the Harris campaign knows, very much by huge majority saying the country is on the wrong track.

To say, not only would trump be worse, but that she would be OK. You can trust her on these issues. You can get a feeling for her who she is. It is not just an issue of time with her. It sometimes an issue of the candidate herself, who tends to be guarded and push back when people ask her about personal questions, fall back on her stump speech lines. That's tough for her, and that has not been -- when she did the Call Her Daddy podcast. That's not how she came across. That's why the campaign is looking for more outlets like that.

BASH: Yeah. We talked about your piece on the show yesterday, and it's because of the way the internet works. I'm not sure if you know, but you can actually go back and find a story that was on the day before. It's incredible.

(CROSSTALK)

DOVERE: We should invest in digital journal.

BASH: But -- go ahead.

ALVAREZ: Well certainly, that's what really interesting, because you mentioned Brene Brown about her stop in Houston on Friday. That's not a battleground, it's a red state. But they think that they can go somewhere like Houston, and with the power of the internet, they can drill down on the point, on reproductive freedom of what a second Trump term could look like, and what the impact and consequences of that is.

[12:25:00]

And this is her bread-and-butter issue. This is the issue that she kicked off 2024 with. So, it's fascinating to sort of stick to '24 when she was still --

BASH: Exactly, exactly.

ALVAREZ: She was the voice on it from the get-go with the then Biden campaign. And so now it's interesting to see her close it with that. And to go somewhere where the -- you know, this is ground zero, and they think they can amplify it again because that is digital.

Yeah. Forgive me, Jamie, I want you to weigh in on what James Carville said in The New York Times this morning. The headline is why I'm certain Kamala Harris will win, and then he makes three points, Trump is a repeat loser, money matters, and Harris has it. And he has a feeling that America is better than reelecting Donald Trump.

Now that is different from like everybody that we're talking to, including David Plouffe and your terrific piece. But even people who are not affiliated with the campaigns, who say over and over, this is a jump ball.

GANGEL: So, I'm not going to bet against James Carville. Maybe he is right. But James Carville also famously, once said, it's the economy stupid. And I think the reality is, we don't know yet what's going to happen this race. But I spoke to someone who was knocking on doors in western Pennsylvania, registered Democrats and independents, no republicans, very limited.

There were two issues. One, obviously abortion, and there was a gender gap there. But the other issue that the person heard the most about, grocery store prices, the economy, and they are worried about it. And over and over again, the people were saying -- because I said to this person who was knocking on doors, is anyone really undecided? And the person said, yes, absolutely, and it's over the economy.

BASH: And on that note, let's listen to a little bit of what the vice president said on NBC yesterday. That question she's been asked several times. How would you be different from President Biden? I think she finally landed where she wants to land on that answer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S., (D) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Mine will not be a continuation of the Biden administration. I bring my own experiences, my own ideas, to it. And it has informed a number of my areas of focus, most of which are on to your point lowering costs. I have been traveling the country. I am very clear. Cost of grocery still too high. The voters know it. I know it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BARRON-LOPEZ: I mean, that's why you're seeing her in these final, you know, in the final month, essentially put out these new economic policies targeting men specifically. Because if there's one thing I have heard from black and brown men is that they feel as though there's not necessarily an answer from her that's specific to them when it comes to the economy, that they'd like to see more of that from her.

It's not necessarily that that means that they're going to automatically vote against her if they don't see it. But that they want more of that from her. And part of her ability to communicate that is also going to the spaces that Priscilla and Isaac were talking about, which we've seen her increasingly do.

Because I was just talking to young men in North Carolina, and they were saying that up until now, they hadn't really seen her in the areas where they get their information or where they look for, you know, different things about politics and government, and they acknowledge that compared to Biden, she's starting to get into those spaces a bit more. BASH: Meet the voters where they are. That's one of the catch phrases of the 2024 campaign. And Barack Obama is trying to do that. He was on a NBA podcast with a very specific message to them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, 44TH U.S. PRESIDENT: The thing I always try to explain to folks is politics is not going to solve all problems all at once. The reason you vote is because you vote for somebody who can see you, knows your life, cares about you. So let me get this straight. You're not going to vote, which means you're going to let a bunch of old people decide your future. You wouldn't do that about your music. You wouldn't do that about your clothes. But you're going to let them decide what your future, your potential careers, what the environment is going to look like.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DOVERE: When he was in Wisconsin yesterday, he was campaigning for Harris. He was also campaigning for Tammy Baldwin, the Senator from Wisconsin, was running for another term in a tough race there. And he said, we don't just talk about Obamacare. We talk about people staying on their healthcare until they're 26 years old as part of Obamacare. And he said Tammy Baldwin was the one who wrote that part of the bill.

That's the case that he is making, not just get up and vote, or you got to get out there, but look at how it's directly affected your life. And that is pushing back on a feeling that Trump tries to traffic on, which is that politics is just fun and a game. And you know, we got to go -- first time when it comes to the immigrants, but a lot of this is just nothing.

And that I hear from voters myself, that they feel like people who are sticking with Trump, even though they have whatever qualms they have with him, are saying like, doesn't matter, they're all liars. And Obama and everybody associated with the Harris campaign, part of what they're doing also in these closing weeks, is to say this matters. It matters not just in terms of whatever Trump might have wanted out of his generals' tax or like Nazi generals