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Today: Vance, Hegseth Holding Meetings With GOP Senators; Distributing New Details Of Sex Assault Allegation Against Hegseth; GOP Senator Defends Hegseth: Trying To "Smear & Discredit"; Hegseth On Sexual Assault Claim: "I Was Completely Cleared"; Trump's Intel Chief Pick Has Deep Distrust Of Intel Agencies; NY Post, Wall Street Journal Editorial Boards Oppose Gabbard; Matt Gaetz Says He Is Withdrawing Attorney General Nomination. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired November 21, 2024 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

DANA BASH, CNN HOST, INSIDE POLITICS: Today on Inside Politics, playing defense. Donald Trump's embattled pick to run the Pentagon is on Capitol Hill to meet with key Republican senators among new graphic details about an allegation of sexual assault against him. One he denies.

Plus, serious warnings about the woman tapped to be the nation's next spy master. We have new reporting on Tulsi Gabbard, deeply rooted distrust of the agencies, Trump wants her to lead. And the GOP trifecta is coming. I'll speak with former RNC chair, Ronna McDaniel about how Republicans won and potential pitfalls for when they gained control in January.

I'm Dana Bash. Let's go behind the headlines at Inside Politics.

We start on Capitol Hill, where Pete Hegseth is behind closed doors, trying to convince top Republican senators to confirm him as the next defense secretary. But these meetings are coming just hours after CNN obtained a 2017 police report, detailing sexual assault allegations against him.

The accuser says, she got into an argument with Hegseth, following a party at a republican conference. She told officers, she, quote, tried to leave his hotel room, but Hegseth blocked the door with his body. She said she remembered saying no a lot, but did not remember much else. Now, Hegseth was not charged and says the sexual encounter was consensual. He did enter into a settlement agreement with that accuser.

CNN's Manu Raju has been talking to senators all morning. Manu, it seems like so far, he's had success with the senators that he's meeting with, but there are a lot more to go.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. And look, these are Republican senators. This is all in a mission, trying to get Republicans in line. We saw this happen with Matt Gaetz, the attorney general pick, yesterday. Now happening with the defense pick, Pete Hegseth. A lot of Republicans have questions. They don't know anything really about it, his world view. And of course, these reports about this 2017 police report and the sexual assault allegation. We are learning that, in fact, Hegseth has been talking to senators directly about this.

In fact, in a meeting that he had with Senator Markwayne Mullin. Just moments ago, he brought up this police report in the beginning of the meeting that actually kicked off the meeting. He talked about it, and of course, Hegseth has been denying an assault actually took place, noted that charges have not been filed.

And Markwayne Mullin went out and told reporters later, including our colleague Kit Maher, that he described it Mullin did, as these two individuals were flirting, that there was no actual assault. So, he seems to have won over people like Senator Markwayne Mullin. But can he get the votes? That's the ultimate question here.

There's also another big question. The vetting process that took place that led to some of these picks, including Pete Hegseth. That's a question that some Republicans and Democrats are raising this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Let's see the full report. Let's understand the context and also understand from the prosecutor who chose not to move forward with it. Why?

RAJU: Those are the vetting process in particular. Don't you think the Trump team should have done a better vetting job.

TILLIS: Well, the more you do up front, the less you have to do on the back end.

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): I think this nomination is doomed. It should never have been made. It was never vetted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And Dana, just moments ago, Pete Hegseth emerged in the hallways of the Capitol and spoke to reporters about these meetings and about these allegations. And said, as far as the media is concerned, I'll keep this very simple. The matter was fully investigated and that was completely cleared. That's where I'm going to leave it.

The question, though, is that enough to win over 51 senators? As really 50 Republican senators, especially if Democrats plan to vote against this nomination. Big questions, as he meets the Republicans today, and then, of course, we'll have his confirmation hearings only next year. Dana?

BASH: Yeah, absolutely. And where you started and ended are really key points, Manu, which is because the Republicans have 53 seat majority. This is about convincing enough fellow Republicans, Democrats are pretty much irrelevant here, but with regard to the math. Thanks, Manu. Appreciate it. I've got three terrific reporters here at the table with me, Jeff Mason of Reuters, CNN's Priscilla Alvarez and CNN's Alayna Treene. Hello, everybody, one and all. Alayna, you cover the Trump transition for us. So, I'm just going to start here when it comes to Pete Hegseth, once again, in light of this police report. We are hearing from the Trump team saying that he fully supports his nominee. There's no plan to even close to withdraw him.

This report corroborates what Mr. Hegseth's attorneys have said all along. The incident was fully investigated, and no charges were filed. Now, she says, because police found the allegations to be false.

[12:05:00]

I just want to underscore. We don't know that police found the allegations to be false. What we know is that he wasn't prosecuted. What happened in between the allegations and -- none of the -- none of them being prosecuted. We don't know. He said just now when he talked to reporters as Manu said that he was cleared.

Again, we don't know that. What we do know is that there was an agreement, which is, attorney says was because it was the middle of the me-too eruption, and he knew that any public allegation would cost him his job, so he just wanted to keep it quiet. And it doesn't necessarily mean that he was guilty. We'll see. These are, again, the beginning of these questions. What are you hearing from the politics?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: The one thing we're hearing from everyone. I've been talking to this morning about this, at least so far, I think what will change is how these meetings go today. I think that's the big question is, how do Republican senators respond to some of these conversations with Hegseth and also J. D. Vance, which I find fascinating.

The only two meetings he's sitting in on are those with Matt Gaetz and Pete Hegseth, noting that he -- you know, he's not sitting on the ones with Stefanik and Doug Collins that are also taking place.

But all to say, one Trump source that I had this morning I was talking with said the same -- honestly, the same thing we heard from the Trump team on the record, which was, the police report doesn't change anything, because it doesn't change the fundamental point that charges were never brought. That is what they're going to keep saying.

I think when I talk to them about the broader question about what is going to happen with this? Is there a contingency plan? Are you actually -- are there actually concerns about this? A few things, as we know, there was a lot of frustration and uneasiness from the get-go with Donald Trump selecting Pete Hegseth. And that's partly because it happened so quickly.

He called him down to Mar-a-Lago to interview him very soon after Donald Trump announced that he was going to be his pick to lead the Pentagon. However, they didn't have a lot of time to vet him, to go through all this. We know we've reported that they were caught off guard by some of these. They've obviously seen the police report now, but that has been an issue already from the start with him.

The other thing, I think, and this goes the same for Matt Gaetz as well as there's still a fear of what else could come out, because again, they haven't done enough of that background research on some of these people. And so, that's where the fear lies.

However, one thing to keep in mind with both Hegseth and also Matt Gaetz is Donald Trump hand selected them himself. These weren't people who were pushed on him by others. Donald Trump was really the one who wanted them in these roles.

And part of this is going to be an ego thing. That is why Donald Trump is standing by them 100 percent and really lobbying people personally to stick by them and support them through these processes.

BASH: And he is somebody who was found liable himself in a court of law. He is somebody who has repeatedly denied the allegations about him with regard to allegations of sexual abuse. And so -- and therefore, with these particular allegations against these two men, he is kindred spirits. I mean, let's be honest, that's a part of this.

JEFF MASON, WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, REUTERS: And I mean, for Donald Trump, loyalty is a two-way street. If he feels like he's got loyalty from this Fox News anchor, and the commonality that you were just -- that you were just talking about, then he's clearly sticking with him now.

And yet, I bring up the question of loyalty because Donald Trump also throws his own people under the bus. So, if this doesn't go well, if it turns out that it's going to use too much political capital, it's certainly a risk that he would -- that he would jettison that's this pick.

BASH: I want to look at some of the other statements from other Republican senators this morning. Let's start off with Bill Hagerty, who by the way is also being considered for treasury secretary.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. BILL HAGERTY (R-TN): Those allegations are nothing, but what you said, allegations that are -- he said, she said, this is a case that has been dismissed. This is just dredging up something or trying to smear and discredit a candidate. It reminds me of what happened to Brett Kavanaugh disgrace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: And here are some others off camera about -- this is specifically about Hegseth. John Barrasso, called him a strong nominee. Marsha Blackburn, great meeting. Roger Wicker, pretty good shape. Eric Schmitt, we need outsiders.

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: It goes back to the math that you and Manu were talking about and convincing fellow Republicans. And there are some who have indicated in the past, they're willing to oppose nominations where issues of sexual assault may arise.

Republican Senator Joni Ernst, she is a combat veteran. We have -- he also has had controversial comments about women in combat. She has a history of protecting women against sexual assault in the military, and she previously opposed an Air Force general back in 2019.

So, there is a potential here for him to lose Republicans, particularly those who have a track record of caring about women in combat, but also sexual assault in the military, sexual assault generally, whether we have to wait until January to see how those votes shake out.

[12:10:00]

But remember, the hearings -- confirmation hearings can be quite splashy, and a lot can come out of those. Democrats will be part of these hearings. So, how one carries themselves through the course of that is also going to be telling and also how Trump decides to continue backing him or not.

BASH: I will just add one other data point there, and that is that she too was the victim of -- was a victim of sexual assault. We just heard Manu talking about Pete Hegseth speaking. We have some tape. Let's roll it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, DONALD TRUMP'S NOMINEE FOR DEFENSE SECRETARY: We take absolutely nothing for granted, and we offer the opportunity to talk to any senator that wants to talk to us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you sexually assault woman in Monterey, California?

HEGSETH: I have -- as far as the media is concerned. I'll keep this very simple. The matter was fully investigated, and I was completely clear, and that's where I want to leave it. Thank you very much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: OK. Again, he wasn't completely clear, he just wasn't prosecuted.

MASON: I wonder what he means by as far as the media is concerned.

BASH: Yeah.

MASON: Is that -- does that just mean this is all I'm going to say to you, but I've got something else to say to Donald Trump. I mean, I think part of the interesting back story here is how annoyed Trump is with this, or if he's not. You know, and I don't know that just is an odd offhand to start that comment with.

BASH: I also just think just, you know how jarring it is, no matter where we are, no matter what we've seen in the last many years. To have the first question come at you from reporters when you're making your way through the hallways, did you sexually assault a woman? Isn't ideal. Let's leave it that way.

I want to broaden the conversation to one of the issues that the Trump transition might be having, which is the distraction right now. And Karl Rove put it this way in an op-ed today. Inadequate vetting, impatience, disregard for qualifications and a thirst for revenge have created chaos and controversy for Mr. Trump before he's even in office. The price for all of this will be missed opportunities to shore up popular support for the incoming president. But at least it will make great TV.

I am of the belief that despite the fact that they were blindsided by the allegations against Pete Hegseth. They certainly knew about a lot of the skeletons in Matt Gaetz's closet. Taking those aside, controversy people outside of the box, whether it's good TV or not, he also is delivering on a promise to do things very, very differently and try to really make an impact and change these agencies across Washington.

TREENE: Right. And I think that's so crucial to keep in mind through all of this, is he very much believes, and we did see, I mean, the votes he won the election. A lot of people -- when I was out on the road at these campaign trails, you know, were praising some of the rhetoric Donald Trump used when he said he wanted to, you know, dismantle the education department and so on and so forth.

But he believes he has a mandate to carry out, and that's why he's so fixated on some of these people. He likes Matt Gaetz genuinely wants him in that role for attorney general. I think there's a lot of people who are arguing, oh, he's might be just a sacrificial lamb. That is not the case.

In my conversations, Donald Trump very much likes Matt Gaetz because he thinks he's the one person who actually disrupt the Department of Justice. And Donald Trump and his team believe that that is what the people want. That people have been saying, we need changes, and that they're going to support this.

And that's a big part of why, you know, all of this is being described a lot of times as you know, just something they need to get through, in a hurdle they need to pass, but not necessarily a litmus test for them or something that could potentially disqualify them for this role.

BASH: Yeah. No, my reporting is not -- is what yours is that he really wants Matt Gaetz for this job. He really, really likes Matt Gaetz. But that doesn't change the fact that so far that --

TREENE: It's not always --

BASH: The numbers are not there.

ALVAREZ: And while it may be publicly a distraction for each of these nominees to have to navigate behind closed doors, there is work underway to do the things. He said he wants to do. I talk to my sources all the time about what is, for example, being worked on in the immigration space and his mass deportation plans, and that is very much underway. Every facet of that is being planned out. So even as all of this is unfolding, that does not mean that the work behind the scenes has been paused.

BASH: OK. Coming up. A potential Intel chief who slams U.S. intelligence. We have new reporting on Tulsi Gabbard. Plus, former RNC Chair Ronna McDaniel is here to break down her party's massive win. And what comes next. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:15:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BASH: We have new reporting now on Donald Trump's pick for the Director of National Intelligence, former Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard. Gabbard has been known to echo talking points from the Kremlin. She's also been a long-time critic of American actions abroad, and specifically how intelligence agencies gather information.

Here's some of that new reporting from CNN's Katie Bo Lillis, Jeremy Herb, and Daniel Strauss, quote. Where she is perhaps most at odds with the agencies, she may soon be tasked with leading is her distrust of broad government surveillance authorities and her support for those willing to expose some of the intelligence community's most sensitive secrets. It's also where she may come into conflict with Trump's own past record.

[12:20:00]

And Katie Bo Lillis joins our panel now. Great reporting. Thank you so much for being here. So, the question is, whether or not, everything that you report on her -- and we can get into more of it. But her skepticism of intelligence, the way that she talks about and talks to authoritarians, whether or not that is really a negative in a Trump administration.

KATIE BO LILLIS, CNN REPORTER: Well, look, there's been a lot of like pearl clutching right over some of the things that she's said that are seen as sort of echoing Russian talking points. But look, I think for the sort of career professionals inside the intelligence community, the far more substantive issue for them that may actually impact sort of U.S. policy is her views on surveillance.

Like, if she becomes the Director of National Intelligence, she's going to have the authority over the budget and the priority setting of the 18 agencies that make up the IC and this is someone who, as you say, has been very, very skeptical of American surveillance authorities in ways that far predate Donald Trump and his sort of war on the deep state, right?

Even when she was a Democrat in Congress, Gabbard introduced legislation that would have not just reformed, but wholesale repealed one of the most significant intelligence collection authorities that the United States has, what's known as Section 702 of FISA. You've probably talked about it on this show before, very controversial because of some of what -- some critics see as violations of American civil liberties. But it's also the one of the primary means by which the American government collects intelligence on foreign entities overseas.

And this legislation from Gabbard would have not just reformed it, but completely done away with it, right, something that former intelligence officials say would have been tantamount to willfully blinding the president the United States.

And so, I think a really, really fascinating question is going to be, if she becomes the Director of National Intelligence. Does she use that authority to try to curtail American intelligence gathering or just kind of go after what the Trump administration sees as deep state bureaucrats that are stymieing their policy prerogative.

BASH: No, those are important -- very important questions that will no doubt come up as part of her confirmation process. Just reading a little bit more from your piece. This is a quote from a Democrat who used to -- we used to serve with her. People have core values and beliefs, and Tulsi, I believe, kind of lacks that. Wow.

And also, let me play, you mentioned some of what she has said, some of the legislation she sponsored. Let's just play some of her past statements on some intelligence issues.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TULSI GABBARD, TRUMP NOMINEE FOR DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: In part because of information revealed by Edward Snowden, we now know that there have been ongoing breaches of our civil liberties, which basically allowed agencies within our government to conduct mass illegal surveillance on Americans without a warrant or probable cause. The intelligence community has not been transparent or honest with the American people or even Congress about what they've been doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: What do you make of that?

MASON: It's just -- it's in line with the theme, I guess, of Donald Trump, people who are in line with his thinking.

BASH: Exactly.

MASON: He also flirts with conspiracy theorists. Clearly, she does as well. He wants somebody who wants to blow it all up to be there. It's just interesting to put somebody to blow it all up in an agency that that many people in the United States would consider a crown jewel. The intelligence gathering.

Now that doesn't mean there aren't things that need to be fixed. And clearly, he's tapped into -- and she is tapping into a wave of concern about that there. But a conspiracy theorist in charge of the DNI, it's an outside of the box pick. BASH: Well, let's listen to Nikki Haley, who is very clearly not a fan of this pick.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY, (R) FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: She tried to limit Trump's war powers against Iran. She tried to cut our annual defense budget so that we couldn't punish Iran and hinder their influence. She went to Syria in 2017 for a photo op with Bashar al-Assad while he was massacring his own people. This is not a place for a Russian, Iranian, Syrian, Chinese sympathizer. DNI has to analyze real threats.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TREENE: Yeah. Well, what's interesting -- and well, one, I mean, clearly with what Nikki Haley is saying is what we've seen across as you mentioned, Jeff, across the board, with a lot of these picks. That many of these people are not appealing to traditional conservatism and the agendas that they will have, that they are actually confirmed to these roles.

[12:25:00]

But one thing I wanted to note about before with that video you showed of Tulsi Gabbard talking about Julian Assange and being against him, that remember, Donald Trump was the one who put. And I believe you know this better than I do, but he was the one who charged him in that case. And obviously, what Tulsi Gabbard was saying was that she believed all of that was wrong.

So, I think a key thing that I'm also interested in is, will she get in the way of what Donald Trump wants to do? Because remember, at the end of the day, that is the key thing that Donald Trump wants out of all of his picks. He wants people who are not going to hold him back, who are going to be yes men or women in this case and allow him to carry out his agenda.

And if she's disagreeing or potentially has different ideas for how she wants to operate on the intelligence and surveillance front, specifically, that could actually be a huge problem down the line that I'm not sure they've confronted.

BO LILLIS: Well, and she's consistently shown that she is willing to sort of buck party Orthodox, which party she's associated with, right? Like she started out as Republican, then she became a Democrat, and now she's a Republican again.

But in all instances, like when she was -- when she was a Democrat in Congress, she was quite often in direct opposition to what the Obama administration wanted to do, or what her own party leadership wanted to do.

When she traveled to -- when she traveled to Syria, you know, our sources tell us that she essentially went rogue. She kind of went without the say so of committee leadership at the time. So, she is very, very much somebody who likes to be seen as an iconoclast, right? Like she is sort of happy to take on this role of somebody who's kind of bucking authority. And whether or not she does that under Trump administration. I think is going to be a very, very interesting thing to watch.

BASH: And then you have editorial boards that are not exactly bastions of liberalism, the New York Post and The Wall Street Journal. The New York Post -- and this is not just about Gabbard, but please, Mr. President, ditch this dreadful duo, Gabbard and Gaetz. The Wall Street Journal, as Director of National Intelligence, would she underestimate security threats to dodge hard policy choices.

ALVAREZ: Well, it's all an extension of what you two have laid out, which is, if she is working in her interest and with her -- what she wants to chase in mind is that completely contradictory to what Donald Trump wants to do. And in a world where he is hand selecting people who want to or who are loyal to him, that could become contradictory.

But also, in theory -- and you know this better, again, than anyone. But in --

BASH: Which is why she is scared.

ALVAREZ: But in theory, this may all sound grand. And if you want to investigate and make these proclamations, fine. But then, again, this -- like, it practically affects the intelligence gathering, which again goes straight to the president's desk.

BASH: OK. Everybody standby. Do you want to quickly add something?

BO LILLIS: Well, I was just going to say, I think it's also really important to remember that, like she also speaks for a really powerful, like, sort of twin set of kind of political wins. I guess, in both parties, an isolationist viewpoint, right, a non- interventionist viewpoint, right?

BASH: OK, standby. We're actually going to go to some breaking news. Paula Reid is here. Paula, what do you have?

PAULA REID, CNN CHIEF LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: All right, Dana, we're hearing that attorney general nominee, former congressman Matt Gaetz has withdrawn his nomination for attorney general. But Dana, this comes about 45 minutes after we reached out to him about some new reporting that we have. And this new reporting is that there was a second sexual encounter between him and an underage woman at a party in 2017.

Now I have covered the investigation into allegations that the congressman may have had sex with a minor for four years now. And Dana, this was the first time that we had learned that the underage woman had testified to a second sexual encounter.

And I learned from my sources, along with our colleague, Sarah Ferris, that she had testified to this to the House Ethics Committee. I want to read our story again. This announcement that he is withdrawing comes as a bit of a surprise. We reached out to him 45 minutes ago to give him a chance to weigh in on this story. And again, his withdrawal comes just a short time after CNN reached out about our reporting that there was a second sexual encounter that the alleged underage victim testified to the House Ethics Committee.

Now let me read you our reporting, Dana. The alleged underage victim has testified that both of these sexual encounters, the one that we always knew about, and this new one, occurred at the same party in Florida in 2017. And Dana, I am told that she gave consistent testimony in both the ethics investigation and a civil lawsuit in Florida.

Now I want to note that the Justice Department investigated these allegations that Gaetz had sex with a minor and did not charge him. He has always denied wrongdoing. And we reached out to him 45 minutes ago to get a reaction to this. He did not offer us a statement. Instead, we're seeing that he is now withdrawing.

Now, I want to note that what's notable about this testimony is that the underage woman testified that the second sexual encounter also involved another adult woman. Now the adult woman has denied that there was a threesome. Gaetz has always denied that he had sex with a minor. But of course, this new reporting was coming as president-elect Trump was trying to shore up support on Capitol Hill to get Gaetz confirmed.

I think this is also important this new reporting because it reminds people that there are things about this investigation that are still not public. But again, we reached out 45 minutes ago to Gaetz's team to tell them that we were going to go public with this story.