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New Image Of Suspected Gunman As Manhunt Continues; Manhunt Underway For UnitedHealthcare CEO's Killer; Musk & Ramaswamy To Target Several Agencies To Cut Spending; House Will Be The Most Closely Divided Since The Great Depression; Hegseth Meeting Senators On Capitol Hill; Sen. Capito Pressed On Support For Trump Nominees; WAPO: " Hegseth Had A Reputation As A Heavy Drinker" At Fox. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired December 05, 2024 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Today on Inside Politics, a pillar on the loose. We have new developments on the hunt for an assassin who took out one of the most powerful business leaders in America. Amid growing law enforcement concern that more than 24 hours after the Manhattan murder, the suspect could be anywhere.

Plus, refusing to retreat. Donald Trump's embattled Pentagon pick says, he has the full support of the president-elect. As we speak, Pete Hegseth is trying to convince skeptical Republicans to stand by his nomination. And one case senator is dropping some not so subtle, not so positive hints about him.

And the do's duo. It's heading to Capitol Hill to push their new cost cutting plans. I'll talk to a powerful Republican committee chair who will meet with Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy today.

I'm Dana Bash. Let's go behind the headlines at Inside Politics.

We start with breaking news. It is an image, a new one, that police want the public to focus on. It shows the suspected gunman unmasked inside a hostel on the Upper West Side of Manhattan. And it's not just a clearer picture of the suspect. Investigators are also learning more about his movements before the shooting and clues about a potential motive.

CNN's John Miller is, of course, working all of his sources. John?

JOHN MILLER, CNN CHIEF LAW ENFORCEMENT AND INTELLIGENCE ANALYST: Well, this is a dramatic development, because the question has been, who is the man behind the mask? And at this hostel, they said, they had this individual who had the same coat, who was wearing a mask. He almost never took it down, even in the room with his two roommates that he was bunking with two strangers.

But there was this one capture of an image where the mask is down. It was a video canvas that led police to the area. And when they went into that hostel and asked like, have you seen an individual like this, they remembered that person. So, he's a person of interest, and they want to get him identified to determine if he is their suspect or he can be eliminated.

BASH: And I want to ask you about the bullet round and casing. There were words etched on them. This is fascinating to me. What exactly is this telling? First of all, what are the words and what is it telling investigators?

MILLER: So, the words are delay. That was on one of the shell casings from around that was fired and struck the victim. But on another bullet, they found the word depose, and that was a live round that when he was racking the slide, apparently to clear what he thought was a jam, that bullet landed on the ground.

So, they have delay and depose. Investigators were saying, OK, what do these terms mean in the context of a victim from a major, you know, health insurance carrier? And you know, their analysts said, look, there's a nomenclature out there called deny, delay and defend, the three Ds of insurance. But those things are -- there are variations on those three words that appear in other parts of the internet.

So, they are operating on the theory that the bullets had a message and that the message was against insurance companies who, when you know, hit with claims, will delay or go to court and take depositions. The question is, where's the third D? Now, if that was what he was doing, that that round could still be in the gun and didn't get fired, or it could be one of the other shell casings where the writing was burned off.

You know, when you look at it, this is a nine-millimeter round. OK. This is very small. It would be very hard to write, you know, on this. And it's not the kind of -- it's not the kind of thing that wouldn't be a highly deliberate act meant to send a specific message. He's trying to tell us something the shooter.

BASH: Yeah, no question. And is this something that happens often, or really at all, that you find casings as part of a murder, or anything else that actually has writing on it?

[12:05:00]

MILLER: So, you know, there's an old saying about, you know, there's a bullet with your name on it.

BASH: Right.

MILLER: You know, that goes back to the old west. And I have seen it before, but extraordinarily rare cases where something is written on the bullet or etched into the bullet. In fact, you know, I'm having trouble remembering the last case that, you know, we had it in New York. So, very unusual.

BASH: Yeah. So, OK. So, we have these bullets. Never mind the fact that this happened, as we talked about this time yesterday, in the early morning, in the middle of midtown Manhattan, that it was very, very deliberate waiting for him, seemed to know exactly when and where he was going to come in. That plus everything that the police have gathered in the last 24 hours.

Do you have any sense from your sources that they're getting any closer to nailing down who the suspect is, which of course, will allow them to find him?

MILLER: Well, I think they feel they're getting closer, but we do know this. The very fact that police had that image since yesterday, where the mask was down and they had the face. You know, based on my own experience in the NYPD, that means you've run that through facial recognition.

It's not of perfect quality that would generate a hit. It's not straight on, it's not a full face. You would run that through other technologies. You have to see. Does it pop up with a mug shot that matches or some other photo?

So, the fact that they're releasing it to us right now today says that none of those things produced anything that they can be sure of. That's why they're crowd sourcing it to the public. Because here's the thing about that photo. It's not facial recognition quality, but if he's a family member, if he's a co-worker, you sit next to. If he's somebody you see every day, you're going to recognize him from this.

BASH: So, so interesting. We're very lucky to have you to explain this from your many, many years inside and outside covering law enforcement. Thanks so much, John.

MILLER: Thanks, Dana.

BASH: And we are going to continue, of course, to bring you any developments on the manhunt in New York as those developments happen. But now coming back here to Washington, where Donald Trump's pick to lead the Pentagon is walking the halls of Congress, fighting to keep his nomination alive.

CNN spoke to Pete Hegseth as he was arriving for more meetings this morning with senators.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How are the meetings going?

PETE HEGSETH, TRUMP'S PENTAGON NOMINEE: Great.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How did the meeting with Ernst go?

HEGSETH: It was constructive and candid. It was great.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did she bring up the allegations?

HEGSETH: I'm not going to talk about private conversations.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BASH: And that question was about Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa. By way of context, she is the first female combat veteran elected to the Senate, a survivor of sexual assault, a very respected senator and a key vote. She went on Fox News this morning, the channel where Hegseth worked, of course, and a place to get Donald Trump's attention. She was intentional about her reticence.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JONI ERNST (R-IA): We will continue with the vetting process. I think that that is incredibly important.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn't sound on your answer that you've gotten to a yes. If I'm wrong about that, correct me. And if that is the case, it sounds to me as if the hearing will be critical for his nomination. Am I right about that?

ERNST: I think you are right. I think for a number of our senators, they want to make sure that any allegations have been cleared.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: CNN's Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill. Manu, did you take the same message away from Senator Ernst's comments as I did?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, no question about it. And she is pointedly not saying if she will support him, because she still has concerns and she believes this process needs to move ahead. She is far from a yes. And I had a chance to ask her many times yesterday whether or not she would support him in the aftermath of their 45-minute meeting. She repeatedly said, they had a frank and thorough conversation would not say one way or the other.

I just talked to Senator Mike Rounds too, who actually just had a meeting with Pete Hegseth. He's a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee as well a Republican. He told me he doesn't believe there is a quote path forward for Hegseth. But just a handful of votes, really for Republican infections could be enough to scuttle this.

Now this all comes as there is tension within the ranks, including from some of Donald Trump's allies, people like Senator Tommy Tuberville of Alabama. Who I asked about, who's very much supporting Pete Hegseth, but had concerns about not just Republicans like Ernst who are raising concerns about the -- about the nominations, but also about Republicans vetting Trump nominees at all.

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SEN. TOMMY TUBERVILLE (R-AL): Who are we to say that we're a better vetter and picker people than Donald Trump?

RAJU: Isn't that your advice and consent?

TUBERVILLE: That's advice and consent, but that's more the Democrats. RAJU: But don't you think both sides should do the vetting?

TUBERVILLE: Well, yeah, to some degree. I mean, but we have to be convinced. I mean, they should do all the background work. They should go after our nominees. I've not heard very little from the left. Donald Trump did all the vetting they needed to do on Pete Hegseth. And I just can't believe we have people on our side.

They're saying, well, I've got to look at this. Got to look at that. What they're doing is they're throwing rocks at Donald Trump. They're not throwing them at Pete Hegseth. They're throwing them at Donald Trump because they're saying, well, we don't believe you. did the right vetting and we don't believe he can do the job. Wait a minute, that's not our job to do that, that's the Democrats.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Of course, the constitution provides that advice and consent role for the United States Senate for members of both parties. But you can hear there from one of Donald Trump's closest allies on Capitol Hill, a concern about the senators within their own party, raising questions about whether there has been proper vetting for nominees like Pete Hegseth.

BASH: That was quite a statement. I think our founding fathers would like a word with Senator Tuberville. I want to turn to another really important event that is happening on the Hill today, and that is Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy are coming up. What do we expect?

RAJU: Yeah. In fact, Elon Musk is in the Senate right now. He met with Senate majority leader -- the incoming Senate Majority Leader, John Thune, this morning. And in a very important meeting, is sitting down with Senator Susan Collins, who's the incoming chairwoman of the Senate Appropriations Committee.

Of course, that determines how money is spent in discretionary spending. People who have money is spent for the federal government. And Elon Musk, of course, is going to propose cuts on some of those domestic programs that Susan Collins has the say in overseeing.

So that relationship between Musk and Susan Collins will be critical. And if they were to carry out on all these spending cuts that they're promising to deliver here and after this meeting, Dana, they both Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy, who both are working as part of this effort to try to streamline and cut government. They will meet with many more Republicans in the House and Senate this afternoon, including the speaker of the House as well.

So, this is all part of an effort to gear up. But Dana, it's much harder to cut these programs than it is to promise to cut these programs.

BASH: You know, that is so well said. Thank you so much, Manu. I want to now go to a member of Congress who will be in a meeting with Vivek Ramaswamy and Elon Musk. And the House speaker today, joining me now. You see there is the Chair of the powerful House Ways and Means tax writing committee, Missouri Congressman Jason Smith.

Mr. Chairman, thank you so much for being here. I want to start on that meeting that you intend to have today. We've heard from Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy. They've made a lot of promises, a lot of them vague on how they want to cut spending. I know you're on the tax writing side, but you have a very big say in sort of the economics of the whole picture. Do you have any red lines?

REP. JASON SMITH (R-MO): You know, I think it's really important to have this dialog in these conversations. I'm excited about meeting with Elon and Vivek to see what direction they're wanting to go. We truly believe that there's numerous areas that we can make government more efficient, especially in my will of jurisdiction, the IRS.

I think that it would be a great service to the American people, if we figure out ways to make it much more efficient when people are paying their taxes, filing their taxes. And so, it will be interesting to hear the different areas are looking at, of course, cutting spending, reducing the size of government, but efficiency, I think is extremely important.

BASH: So, when you say the IRS, are you talking about making it more efficient to better recoup the taxes that Americans owe. Are you talking about cutting IRS jobs and spending?

SMITH: I think both. I think you need to look at what can be the most efficient with the as small as government as it can be. But it needs to make sure that it provides the necessary services to the taxpayers, so that they're not waiting in line so long to file their taxes. So that they can file their taxes more efficiently and easier.

It's just a very troubling process at times in filing your taxes, and also, whenever you're going through an audit, those audits sometimes can take years, and that shouldn't be the case. Let's get the job done.

BASH: And entitlements, as you well know, Medicare, social security, they make up a huge part of the federal budget. And Vivek Ramaswamy suggested that that's not off the table to make cuts there. It was a promise by Donald Trump during the campaign that he wouldn't touch it. What do you think?

SMITH: So, President Trump has been very specific. He wants to protect and preserve social security and Medicare. There is other areas of mandatory spending that do not affect social security and Medicare that we can look at and we can streamline, we can cut, but you can absolutely make very large cuts without ever touching social security and Medicare.

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BASH: Wow. OK. So, I want to turn to what you're really focused on, and that is the fact that there is a very -- almost evenly divided House. It's the most narrowly divided House since the great depression. We have 220 Republicans, 215 Democrats. That might even narrow even more with upcoming GOP vacancies. What your focus that I was referring to is on what is known as reconciliation to get Trump's economic package through. It's usually most helpful to do it this way, just for our viewers. I know you should know this in the U.S. Senate, because it only needs a simple majority to pass there. But given how hard it could be to pass anything where you are in the House. Are you going to tailor the priorities you'll put in there in a way that will also get some Democratic votes?

SMITH: You know, a big, big aspect of being able to pass this economic package is to look how we have to thread the needle because it's not going to be easy. As you pointed out, I look at the vote margin, probably be 217 to 215 by the time that we are able to vote on this economic package. And so, we're going to need all the help that we possibly can. It's going to be more difficult, without a doubt, to pass this economic package out of the House than it will be the United States Senate.

The United States Senate has a much larger majority than what we do in the House of Representatives. But it's so important for the American people that we do not allow the child tax credit gets slashed in half from 2000 to 1000. The guaranteed deduction, which 91 percent of Americans use to file their taxes, that gets slashed in half too if Congress does nothing. So, failure is not an option, I promise you.

BASH: And just real quick before I let you go. I don't want to get too far in the weeds, but this is really important. The new Senate Republican Majority Leader John Thune, said that he wants to deal with the incoming president's economic plans, like border security and other issues first, and then deal with tax cuts later. You're the guy where it starts. Is that what you're going to do?

SMITH: I think that's the wrong strategy, and I've been advocating for the opposite. I believe that the first reconciliation bill needs to be a comprehensive reconciliation bill that addresses the expiring tax provisions. It also addresses energy, the border, immigration, and also some spending cuts. I think that that's what is necessary in order to get the necessary votes to thread the needle to move it over to the United States Senate.

BASH: Mr. Chairman, thank you so much for coming on today. I really appreciate it.

SMITH: It's great to be with you.

BASH: And coming up. Quote, are you an alcoholic? Are you a womanizer? Did you embezzle money? A senior transition official says those are some of the questions Republican senators are asking Pete Hegseth behind closed doors. So why is he so bullish that he can survive. That's next.

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(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BASH: Pete Hegseth is meeting with senators right now. He's currently sitting down with Indiana Senator-elect Jim Banks. Great reporting is coming from, as always, from my colleague, Kristen Holmes. And she's talking about why Donald Trump is still backing his embattled, nominee. Here's what she's reporting

One Trump world advisor tells her, quote, she -- excuse me, this is very different, very different situation than the one with Matt Gaetz. With Gaetz, you had multiple members who were legitimate hard no's whereas with Pete, I don't think there's a single actual hard no on the GOP side of the Senate right now.

I'm joined by some other exceptional reporters here at the table, Hans Nichols of Axios, Marianna Sotomayor of The Washington Post, and CNN's Alayna Treene. Hello everybody.

I want to go back to what I was talking about with Manu at the beginning of the show about Joni Ernst, the Republican Senator from Iowa, coming -- important member of the Armed Services Committee and then the broader Senate in general, coming out -- going intentionally on Fox News this morning to make clear she is not a yes, yet, maybe ever, after her meeting with Pete Hegseth. Another Republican senator happens to be another female Republican senator also chose the Fox platform this morning to send a message.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIA BARTIROMO, FOX NEWS ANCHOR, MORNINGS WITH MARIA: Are you supporting all these candidates?

SEN. SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO (R-WV): I'm supporting President Trump's initiatives and the really mandate that the people brought to do things, to be effective and to be bold.

BARTIROMO: Republicans were there for Joe Biden. Are Republicans going to be there for Donald Trump? Are you all going to stick together?

CAPITO: Yes, we are. And I think at the end of the day, the media has, you know, created a firestorm around several of the appointees. But look at the whole -- the whole body of what the president's move forward with. It's very positive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Alayna, so she's talking about the president -- the president- elect's agenda and his policies. And even though Maria was trying to get her to nail down a yes on the nominees, she was very sort of crafty in her answer.

[12:25:00]

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN REPORTER: I also argue. I think that hit from Capito is exactly what Trump world is going to see right now. And she's echoing a lot of the -- even though she didn't, of course, they would rather her come out and say, I'm absolutely supporting Hegseth. She's echoing all of the things that I keep hearing in my conversations with Trump advisers, which is, you know, you have to -- if you support Donald Trump, you're going to support who he is putting forward. And if you don't support him, it's a sign of not supporting Donald Trump and his agenda, if you do not back his nominees.

And with Kristen's reporting, I've heard some of this as well. The thing, when it comes down to Hegseth in particular, is they are feeling more confident than they were with Matt Gaetz. I think that's a huge thing right now, and why we're not seeing, you know, more concern. I think that's a right now situation. I mean, this could change very quickly. We know that he's meeting with all of these senators and that's going to be a key indicator.

But the one thing they keep saying privately is that, with Matt Gaetz, senators were very direct with Donald Trump personally, that they were not going to be able to move forward and confirm it. They were hardnosed. Right now, they think that they can still get enough people, including Joni Ernst, to maybe say, yes.

And that's also why we're seeing a ton of people in Trump world are going very hard after Joni Ernst. They're almost kind of making her the symbol of, you know, not rejection quite yet about Hegseth, but they're going out to her heart to be like, this is not supporting Donald Trump. It's not even about her concerns about Hegseth in particular, they're making it a problem about Trump overall.

And so, there's going to be, I think a lot more conversations behind the scenes with Ernst specifically, but all of these members to really rally them around and say, if you're not supporting our picks, then you're not supporting the soon to be president.

HANS NICHOLS, POLITICS REPORTER, AXIOS: I wish I was skilled to Shelley Moore Capito and giving a non-answer when someone looks at me, asking for an answer. She really walked the line down the middle, not saying one way or the other. That's what all the senators are going to do publicly, privately. That's our urgent task as reporters, is to try to figure out which way they're going. That's the task. That's the game we'll all play.

To me, the big difference between Gaetz and Hegseth. Number one, even with Gaetz, there was not a potential replacement that was floated beforehand. And two nights ago, the Wall Street Journal broke that there was a potential, you know, Ron DeSantis could be secretary of defense.

And two, and this is what we reported last night. Trump isn't working the phones in the same way that it was for Gaetz and his -- and I'm not saying he's cut bait. I think that'd be too far, but he isn't putting the same amount of effort he did with Gaetz. And that to me is interesting.

BASH: And we just have to sort of put some meat on the bone here, which is allegations keep coming out of various forms. One of them was at the Washington Post yesterday, which reported at Fox News. Hegseth had a reputation as a heavy drinker. That's according to six former Fox News employees who worked directly with Hegseth and saw him drinking on the job or visibly drunk at work events, and who spoke on the condition of anonymity out of fear of retaliation.

Now, before I bring you in, I want to say that Hegseth's attorney, Tim Parlatore, very clearly denied those claims, imported -- appointed to on the record Fox employees who supported and do support his nomination and say that that didn't happen.

MARIANNA SOTOMAYOR, CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: And Hegseth himself behind closed doors talking to senators as well as a little pit stop in the House yesterday, also said the same things, I am not an alcoholic. That is what he is telling these senators.

Seems like some Republican senators have welcomed that, specifically the promise that Hegseth is making to them, which is, I also will not be drinking on the job. I will not be drinking if I am confirmed as Defense Secretary. So that is pretty significant. Maybe could move the needle, but there's still so many other questions.

And you know to Kristen's reporting about right now, there aren't any hard nos. Well, there could be at a certain point. And like we have all been saying, all eyes are truly on Senator Joni Ernst. If she is going to decide to go against him, I think you're going to probably see the likes of Senator, Lisa Murkowski, possibly Susan Collins as well, come out against him.

Here's the thing, the margin is 53, right? So, you could lose three senators, and Vance could be that breaking tie to confirm Hegseth on the floor. So, there's still a pathway. It's not impossible. There's still a pathway.

BASH: And again, she is on the Armed Services Committee, which means that she would be part of not necessarily the vetting, but the questioning and the first line of advising consent, which the founding fathers put in the constitution.

Don't go anywhere because we're going to go back to Capitol Hill. When we come back, Elon Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy, as you heard, they are on Capitol Hill. They're about to meet with congressional Republicans. What can they accomplish? What's their ask? That's ahead

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