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Source: Medical Examiner Now Processing Possible DNA Evidence In Killing Of UnitedHealthcare CEO; Police Chase New Clues As CEO Killer Remains On The Run; Trump Social Media Post Backs Embattled Defense Secretary Nominee; Hegseth: "I'm A Different Man Than I Was Years Ago"; Clyburn: Jack Smith, Liz Cheney Should Be Preemptively Pardoned. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired December 06, 2024 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

DANA BASH, CNN HOST, INSIDE POLITICS: Today on Inside Politics, assassin on the run. We have some breaking news on possible DNA evidence related to the Manhattan CEO murder. And new information on how investigators are trying to close in on the gunman's identity.

Plus, Pete is a winner. Donald Trump posted that message about his embattled Pentagon pick today. A new public show of support for a nomination that is essentially hanging by a thread and pushing preemptive pardons. I'll ask a democratic power broker, Jim Clyburn, about his push for Joe Biden to preemptively pardon people. Donald Trump said he'd go after.

I'm Dana Bash. Let's go behind the headlines at Inside Politics.

We start with a trail of clues to catch a killer who has been on the run for more than 50 hours now. And there's a significant new development to report to you. The person of interest was last seen on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, exiting Central Park on 85th Street Wednesday morning.

That's where CNN's Shimon Prokupecz is right now. And Shimon, you have that information and some additional information about DNA.

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN SENIOR CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right. So, there is now DNA that investigators believe they have pulled off some of the evidence that they recovered at the scene in that alleyway where, as you'll recall, the suspect was seen fleeing.

So, there is some -- they believe there are some DNA there and they have submitted it to the New York City Medical Examiner's office, which are the folks that would pull it and test it and see if they could perhaps find some kind of match.

The importance of that is also you have to keep in mind that investigators are building a criminal case. And right now, since they really don't have a lot of evidence per se linking him to the crime, when you look at that video, you see him from the back. Perhaps they have other information, but they're starting to see -- what we're starting to see is that they're starting to hopefully, eventually hope to arrest him and then they have to prosecute him. And so, we're starting to see them develop some of that information and evidence for a potential prosecution.

But as you said, Dana, quickly, we're out here on West 85th Street. This is the last place that we know of. There is video of this man fleeing from the scene. This is the last place that we saw him in video riding on his bike up 85th Street and going down the street here. And we don't know, as he approaches Columbus Avenue, does he make a left? Does he make a right? We don't know that.

What we do know just based on our own work on the ground, he doesn't drive past Columbus Avenue, west of Columbus Avenue. We've looked at videos on that street. He's not there. So, where he is, is obviously the biggest question right now.

It's kind of hard to believe that in a city of this size, that he would be able to hide. So, in this sort of large area, that's what's going on. And police tell us they're looking for him. They're trying to identify him, and they're looking for him.

The other thing is, Dana, we haven't had a lot of information publicly from the NYPD since the hours after this. They have not held another briefing, and there could be a number of reasons for it. So, for now, all we have is really the information that we've been able to gather on our own here, on the streets and certainly from sources. And we'll wait to see if at some point the NYPD gives us any updates.

BASH: Just one quick follow up, Shimon, the video that we just showed that you and our team have been reporting on of the suspect riding the bike. And did that end, we believe with an entrance into Central Park, because that's the area where it looks like he is.

PROKUPECZ: Right. He leaves the park somewhere around 77th Street, got and rides north here, and then makes a right to go west. The other thing, I think, and I failed to mention, Dana, was that -- what's really also critical here is when you see him in that video, the backpack that we see him in the initial video when the murder occurs, we don't see that backpack.

So that evidence now is gone. We know that law enforcement was searching the park for it -- Central Park for it, but so far, they've been unable to locate it. So obviously, already, as he's riding, as he's get making his getaway, he's thinking of ways to get rid of evidence. And so far, law enforcement has not been able to find that.

BASH: Yeah. Thank you for clarifying that. So, he's going west. People not intimately familiar with the geography of Manhattan, meaning he was going away from the park towards the Hudson River. Don't go anywhere, Shimon.

I want to bring in former Maryland State Police Commander Neill Franklin. Thank you so much for being here. Let's start with the news that Shimon just brought us about the DNA evidence. Obviously, DNA is critical, but you have to know more information when you have that DNA about who that person is in order to make the connection, right?

[12:05:00]

NEILL FRANKLIN, FORMER MARYLAND STATE POLICE COMMANDER: Right. So obviously, DNA evidence is extremely critical in a case like this, where we have limited physical evidence at this point. First of all, the NYPD is very good at what they do, so physical evidence from the videos that they're collecting, we don't know everything that they have.

And as relative to this DNA evidence, even though -- even if it doesn't lead us directly or immediately to the perpetrator, who it is, the identity of the person, by collecting it, say, from a water bottle, from a discarded cell phone, maybe we get lucky and discovered a backpack, and there's more DNA evidence there, maybe the bike and so on.

By being able to match that DNA among the items, the shell casings that were discovered at the scene, right? Maybe we get lucky and discover it and find the weapon itself. So, the importance of that DNA will link one item to the next, to the next, and then eventually to the perpetrator, the guy we're looking for.

BASH: And major Franklin, the motive. That is still not really known. We have some clues --

FRANKLIN: Absolutely.

BASH: -- like what was written on those shell casings.

FRANKLIN: Absolutely. So, right now, what a lot of people are thinking is OK, is directly related to his position as CEO of UnitedHealthcare. And some of the things that we're hearing about the insurance industry and denying claims and so on. What was scribed or written on the shell casings about, you know, delay, deny, and so on.

That's, you know, in a sense, leading people initially to that being the motive. But you also know criminal investigators have to think of everything. Could that be a diversion? I mean, could that be intentional to have us looking in a particular --

BASH: Interesting.

FRANKLIN: You know, could it distract us from someone else? Basically, what I'm saying is, unfortunately, we even have to look at family. We have to look and dig into his personal life, friends and family. What's going on there? We can't leave one stone unturned as it relates the motive.

BASH: So, when you say that, obviously, to talk to his family, you have to know who he is. DNA evidence is important for -- I mean, first and foremost that, but also ultimately for a trial, as Shimon was saying. Do you think that they know who he is? You think that they have his identity?

FRANKLIN: It's a good chance -- it's a very good possibility with these new photographs that he has, that they already know who he is. It's a very good chance of that. But I also -- I want to say something else that I know these criminal investigators are looking into as it relates to motive. There have been times when people have orchestrated their own demise for certain reasons.

We know that there was some -- yeah, I'm not saying this is the case, but as an investigator --

BASH: Like for insurance purposes?

FRANKLIN: Absolutely, insurance purposes. You know, maybe they fear some type of investigation down the road. Maybe they want to leave their family in a good light. But there have been cases where people have orchestrated their own democracy. Here's another reason --

BASH: And just to say, you're saying in a nice language. You're saying -- you're saying that it is a possibility --

FRANKLIN: It is a possibility.

BASH: -- that he hired somebody to kill him.

FRANKLIN: Absolutely, it cannot be ignored. My and this is what is really digging at me, as a former criminal investigator. This guy knew too much about where he was going to be at a specific time. There's no evidence that I've seen of him.

When you look at the timeline of him coming to that area outside of the Hilton, and where he was outside of the Hilton. It's a very small window, very small window. It's not like he was roaming around. We have video of him roaming around, going from one door to the next to the next, trying to figure out where he's going to be at a specific time.

BASH: He knew.

FRANKLIN: He was there. He was laying and wait. Who would have that specific type of information as to what sidewalk he was going to be on?

BASH: OK, wow. Yeah. I mean, that's the way your criminal investigators mind works. It's important. Shimon, I want to bring you back in. You know, you have covered so many crimes and things like this. I'm sure you could be an investigator inside the NYPD yourself. What are some other things that you are looking at, and you are asking your sources there about how their -- how the manhunt is going and what they are looking into?

PROKUPECZ: Yeah. Well, I have to say that theory that your guests there just sort of relay, that's really an interesting one, right? It's not some -- not one that many of us have thought of. It's really, really interesting. I think, for right now, for the NYPD, the big thing is to identify him. You know, for all we know, they may be closed. They may know the identity and they're just not telling us, right?

[12:10:00]

They work through these things. It's really interesting how law enforcement works. They don't want to tip their hand too much because they sometimes worry that the person they're looking for is watching media reports, or sometimes they may be tracking the person, and they don't want to let the person know that they know who they are.

So, that may be what's going on here. I mean, we're on day three here. I do think it's really interesting that we haven't heard from the NYPD since Wednesday. Yes, they put out a tweet yesterday, but we've not heard from them. So, they're continuing to work through this investigation.

Obviously, where the backpack is? That's a big thing. If they don't have the backpack, they don't have the murder weapon. It's going to make it all even harder for them down the line for this prosecution, it really is.

Because I was thinking about this today, Dana, we don't really have, the NYPD may have this, but they don't really have any video at this point or evidence that we know of that directly links this person that they can directly with, you know, beyond that reasonable doubt, identify him.

So, I think that's part of what is happening too, and what they're working through. And so, they really need to continue to find the smallest of pieces of evidence to link this person to an eventual prosecution if they're apprehended. So that's what's going on.

And obviously, the motive here is so important, and I think they're working through that here, but also through his work and through where he lived and where his family lives and other relatives. All of that is happening behind the scenes. And even to late last night, we saw investigators out here just up the street, looking for more video, making sure they didn't miss something.

So, a lot of detectives are on this case. They're doing a lot, a lot of work, and hopefully we'll get some. I really think it's important for the public, especially as we head into the weekend to try and get some more information from the NYPD once they can do that.

BASH: Yeah. Shimon, reporting in your inimitable fashion from New York City and Major Franklin, former Maryland State Police Commander. Thank you so much to both of you for that. And there's breaking news out of Manhattan on a different case.

The jurors in the Daniel Perry trial just told the judge, they are dead locked -- at Daniel Penny's trial, forgive me, they're deadlocked on the manslaughter charge. But the judge told them to resume deliberations, saying he's not ready to declare a mistrial. Penny, a marine veteran is on trial in the chokehold death of Jordan Neely on a New York City subway last spring. Keep you posted on any further developments on that this hour.

Coming up. Donald Trump is sticking to his choice to lead the Pentagon. Amid new extensive reporting on Pete Hegseth's history of alcohol use. We have new details, next.

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[12:15:00]

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BASH: Donald Trump is breaking his social media silence this morning on one of his most controversial nominees, posting on Truth Social, quote. Pete Hegseth is doing very well. His support is strong and deep, much more so than the fake news would have you believe, praising Hegseth, ending his post quote. Pete is a winner, and there is nothing that can be done to change that.

I want to bring in a very smart group of reporters, anything but fake, CNN's Kristen Holmes, Margaret Talev of Axios, and CNN's Lauren Fox. Just to state the obvious, we are reporting on what we are hearing from the people who will decide Pete Hegseth's fate, and those are United States senators, particularly Donald Trump's fellow Republicans, who will be in charge and the votes are not there yet.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's true. And I will say we actually reported yesterday that Donald Trump is standing by Pete Hegseth. So, the idea that that's fake, I mean, he's calling out his own self. But one of the things that we talked about was the fact that Donald Trump has no hard no's when it comes to Pete Hegseth.

That's very different than what he saw with Attorney General Matt Gaetz when he was putting his name forward. There were a lot of hard nos that people that said they weren't going to shift. So, part of the reason that Donald Trump is still supporting Hegseth is because of the fact that they see a pathway there.

But I am told that this could shift at any time, and there's a couple things that could shift at one. If there is a swell of senators who say we just can't get there with him, Donald Trump is likely to drop this candidate. The other part of this is what else is out there on Pete Hegseth. Is there anything else?

And I am told by sources that if there are more allegations, if there are more accusations, if there are more whistle blow reports or police reports that come forward, that could shift the entire dynamic because there are people close to Donald Trump who don't feel like Hegseth was completely forthcoming on what was out there.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: One thing that Kevin Cramer said this week, which I think is absolutely true and speaks to Kristen's point, is there cannot be any more surprises. We are not in a business where surprises are good.

BASH: And this is a Trump ally, senator from South Dakota.

FOX: This is a Trump ally who represents North Dakota --

BASH: North Dakota. FOX: And it is an incredibly conservative senator, but also had serious questions for Hegseth about his alcohol use. And what that looks like, and whether or not he'd be willing to give up alcohol as part of his confirmation process if he got the job to run the Pentagon.

And you know specifically in their conversation, one of the things that came up was, what are you going to do if you get a call at three in the morning, and Hegseth said, I will be ready whether it's three in the morning, three in the afternoon, or anytime in between. But that just speaks to, Dana, that this is not a softball set of senators that are certainly going to be voting for him. I think this is still really an active discussion.

[12:20:00]

BASH: Yeah. I mean, when Joni Ernst said it was a frank and candid discussion. We all know that language from covering the White House and international trips that diplo speak for -- it was very tough.

I want to talk about some of the CNN new investigative reporting on the public profile of Hegseth and what was going on in private and the turmoil. In an interview during Trump's first term in office, years before Hegseth became Trump's pick to run the Pentagon, one long time Fox News producer told CNN that Hegseth also had a drinking habit that was an open secret on the set of Fox & Friends. The producer said he sometimes noticed beer cans in the trash can inside Hegseth's office, and once asked his boss, does Pete drink before he goes on the air every day?

Now, before I bring you in, Margaret, I just want to go to some of what Hegseth himself said about this and other allegations yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, TRUMP DEFENSE SECRETARY NOMINEE: I'm a different man than I was years ago. And that's a redemption story that I think a lot of Americans appreciate, and I know from fellow vets that I've spent time with, they resonate with that as well. You fight, you go do tough things in tough places on behalf of your country, and sometimes that changes you a little bit. And by the grace of God and my Lord and Savior, I had an opportunity to come on up out of it and do great things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Margaret?

MARGARET TALEV, SENIOR CONTRIBUTOR, AXIOS: Redemption stories are great. And I hope for his sake that he has is working past these problems. But I think if you were a member of the military, if you were a soldier, and you were having these kind of problems while on the job, you would not be able to advance to a higher rank level, to officer level. You would not be able to advance up the officer chain if you were in that chain. Also, these problems were not -- are not in the distant barely visible in the rearview mirror. These are problems within the last decade. In many cases, they're fresh in people's minds. And I think one of the questions we've been talking about is, will he get to the confirmation hearings process? But let's say that he does.

All of these details will come out during the confirmation process. It's entirely possible, accusers will come out during the confirmation process. This will all necessarily create distractions to the questions about the substance of the job. And the question is, is it important enough for President-elect Trump that it be this specific nominee? Is he willing to stand by him that way? And if so, why?

BASH: And you mentioned the idea that some of your sources were saying that they were not happy that he was less than forth coming with some of these issues that are now coming up. Tim Parlatore, Hegseth's attorney told Kaitlan Collins last night that the background check is underway. And so, we're going to know a lot more before the confirmation hearings even begin. I mean, they're at least the people who will decide his fate in the Senate.

HOLMES: This obviously would have been helpful, like a month ago for his team, when they were abruptly called within 24 hours of naming Hegseth with this allegation from 2017 that they had no idea about. When you talk about them being surprised, we know that Susie Wiles had a phone call with Hegseth where she essentially said to him, tell me if there's anything else out there.

They were not pleasantly surprised by the police report that then came up several days later, which they said people on the transition said they were not made aware of. So, there was a lot of hand wringing over that as well. Donald Trump, as we've said, is standing by him. But there is this question of what else could possibly be in a real background check that was done very methodically by the FBI and will that change things moving forward?

BASH: Quick button.

FOX: And I just think that senators went a long way to ensuring that these background checks actually happened. They were very public about the fact that they needed them. And it's just important to remind everyone Republican senators decide if someone gets a confirmation hearing, Donald Trump cannot force anyone's hand there. So, I just would be so interested to know what the back story is on how we got from A to Z.

BASH: Thanks, everybody. Don't go anywhere. Coming up, President Biden is considering preemptive pardons for possible targets of prosecution once Donald Trump takes office. Next, I'll talk to a staunch Biden ally who supports that idea, Congressman Jim Clyburn, is next.

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[12:25:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BASH: Days after President Biden's pardon of his son Hunter, multiple sources tell CNN, the White House is now considering offering preemptive pardons for potential targets of prosecution after Donald Trump takes power.

That would include people the president-elect has said should be jailed, even though they haven't formally been accused of any crimes. One Biden ally who is on board with this idea is South Carolina Congressman Jim Clyburn.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JIM CLYBURN (D-SC): Joe Biden needed to do on his way out of office, what he could to protect his son. Jack Smith, name is on my list. Liz Cheney's name is on my list. I think that they all should be preemptively pardon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: It's been Congressman Jim Clyburn joins me now. Good to see you, sir. I just want to keep this conversation going because it is so fascinating. And my first question is a simple one. Do you really think that this is what the pardon power was created for by the founding fathers of this country?