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Sources: WH Aides Weigh Preemptive Pardons For Trump Critics; Obama: To Some, "The Election Proved That Democracy Is Pretty Far Down On People's Priority List"; One-On-One With Author & Actress Kelly Bishop. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired December 06, 2024 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00]

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: -- Jim Clyburn joins me now. Good to see you, sir.

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D), SOUTH CAROLINA: My pleasure (ph).

BASH: I just want to keep this conversation going because it is so fascinating. And my first question is a simple one. Do you really think that this is what the pardon power was created for by the founding fathers of this country?

CLYBURN: Well, thank you very much for having me. First of all, my understanding of the pardon powers was to allow the President of the United States to put his heart into issues that have been handled only by the head.

That is to say, when people are accused or even found guilty of having violated laws and have paid their debt to society and have come back into society making tremendous contributions, that they ought to be considered for forgiveness.

And so I think that that's pretty much what it was originally planned to be. But over time, we have to take into consideration that today's processes in politics lend themselves to things like soundbites, to things that the media can sometimes be used in a way it is not intended to be used.

If we look at just the press itself, the fourth estate, when we were talking about our government and the role that the press should play, I don't think anybody ever thought that we would one day embrace different sets of facts, alternative facts of what we're now calling it.

And so this gives to a different environment. And so we have to use the pardon system or the clemency system to get everything in order to address the current situation that we live in.

BASH: So when you refer to the media, are you just referring to things getting reported? Are you referring to the media as people, you know, Donald Trump reportedly wants to go after? Can you clarify that?

CLYBURN: Well, when people use the media in order to spread disinformation, now I'm using media in a broad sense. Yes.

BASH: I see. And when you look at --

BASH: Like social media example.

CLYBURN: Absolutely.

BASH: OK.

CLYBURN: Yes, absolutely.

BASH: Can I just ask you something that one of my colleagues here, Michael Smerconish, said this morning, which I really found noteworthy. And that is that preemptive pardons might be a bad idea because it could create the implication that the person who got it, did something wrong when perhaps they didn't.

And it furthers a perception also that there's no difference between politics and the law. What do you say to that?

CLYBURN: Well, I would say that he's right. That's quite true. But I would also say that the environment that we live in could very well have people targeted. Just let's take the president's son, for example. He filled out a form to purchase a gun. And he did not tell the truth on that form.

And it was allowed to be risen to a felony. And he is paying a severe penalty because he's the president's son. Now, everybody that I've talked to say to me that this kind of offense has never gotten to this point for ordinary people.

And so I'm convinced that were he not the president's son, that one mistake, which had no victim, the gun was never used. The gun was taken from him and thrown away. But now he's paying a felonious penalty for it. And so I just think that what the President did here is the kind of thing that I'm talking about.

BASH: Yes.

CLYBURN: Look at all of the people who are asking him to use his clemency powers with regarding the things like crack cocaine versus powder cocaine. A hundred to one? All the science says there's no difference between --

BASH: Right.

CLYBURN: -- powder cocaine and crack cocaine, but we treat them differently.

BASH: Right. But those are crimes that have been committed and people have been convicted of and those are the more traditional pardons that presidents consider, things that have already happened as opposed to preemptive. But I hear what you're saying.

CLYBURN: Sure.

[12:35:03]

BASH: Mr. Clyburn, I want to switch gears to something that former President Obama said. He made, I believe, his first comments since the election. He said this last night. I want you to take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Talk of bridging our differences when the country and the world seemed so bitterly divided, felt like an academic exercise. It felt farfetched, even naive, especially since as far as they were concerned, the election proved that democracy is pretty far down on people's priority list.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

BASH: So essentially, too much focus on the concept of democracy and democracy being at risk as part of the election message. Well, it certainly was a message that President Biden, when he was running, was pushing. And then at the end of Kamala Harris's campaign, hers as well. What do you make of the former president's comments?

CLYBURN: Well, I think they ring true. Not that they should be true, but they have demonstrated that that is the case. You know me very well and you know that I spent a lot of time studying history. And I've talked about this election, even going in the run up to the election from a historical standpoint.

And I came to remember as we were celebrating the 100th anniversary of this country's existence, we had a presidential election in 1876.

BASH: Yes.

CLYBURN: And you see what happened to democracy in that election. It led to Jim Crow. I'm the ninth African-American to serve in Congress from South Carolina. The problem is there are 95 years between number eight and number nine because democracy was driven so far down on people's lists --

BASH: Yes.

CLYBURN: -- back in 1876. And there's a danger of that happening again. So though President Obama is correct in his assessment, the question is, is that a good place for the country to be?

BASH: We're going to have to leave it there, but I know that we're going to pick up this conversation because there's a lot more to discuss on this. Thank you for joining me. Appreciate it.

CLYBURN: Well, thank you very much for having me.

BASH: And my panel is here now. Lauren, you cover Congressman Clyburn every day. What are your thoughts about where the conversation is on the Hill, just on the preemptive pardon notion?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, lawmakers were very uncomfortable with Biden's decision when it came to his son, Hunter, and --

BASH: Except for that one.

FOX: Except for that one. But a lot of senators, right? A lot of senators on that first night that they came back, I thought it was really amazing and incredible in those last few moments when you're sort of trying to decide what is going to happen in the future and what the Trump administration might do and making decisions that you really don't have a great idea because we don't have a crystal ball of which way they're going to go.

And it is such a sort of interesting moment for the country, scary moment for the country, to not know how the Justice Department is going to be used. And so, you know, I think you hear from Democrats on kind of both sides of that issue because they just don't know what's happening next.

MARGARET TALEV, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Donald Trump has already signaled that he may want to use his pardon powers to exonerate some of the January 6th protesters. I think if Biden goes ahead with this, Trump will use that as a predicate, but he doesn't need the predicate. He can just do it anyway.

And what I hear Clyburn saying is he understands there are implications for preventive -- preemptive pardons, but in this climate, it may be necessary anyway, struggling with that future implications, but the need to protect people like Jack Smith now.

BASH: Yes. And I didn't even ask him about something that he had supported, which is the notion of pre-emptively -- well, maybe not preemptively, but pardoning Donald Trump. It doesn't sound to me like that's really being considered inside the White House. Have you heard anything inside the Trump campaign, or the Trump transition?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We haven't heard anything in terms of what the White House is considering for a pardon for Donald Trump. But I will say I agree that like it sets a precedent, but Donald Trump was going to do whatever Donald Trump wanted to do already. So even without the precedent, I mean, he could make his own decisions.

BASH: No truer words have been said --

HOLMES: Yes.

BASH: -- Kristen Holmes.

Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back.

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[12:43:56]

BASH: The treasured Notre Dame will officially reopen this weekend. The world watched in disbelief back in April of 2019 as the 860-year- old cathedral was engulfed in flames. And look at Our Lady of Paris now. Dozens of heads of state and government are expected to attend the reopening ceremony tomorrow. That includes President-elect Donald Trump and the current First Lady, Jill Biden.

Coming up, the palate cleanser we all need this Friday after a wild news week. The Third Gilmore Girl joins Inside Politics next.

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[12:48:55]

BASH: You're on Inside Politics. We often spotlight powerful women. We've brought you interviews with presidential candidates on both sides of the aisle, the Speaker of the House, United States senators. But never before have we had a conversation quite like this.

She is the matriarch. She's the matriarch. A star of the stage and on your TV screens.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

KELLY BISHOP, AUTHOR & ACTRESS: I am going to Europe, Richard. I'm going to Europe and I'm going to have a marvelous time. I'm going to get up at 10 and I'm going to have two glasses of wine at lunch every single day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Only prostitutes have two glasses of wine at lunch.

BISHOP: Well, then buy me a boa and drive me to Reno because I am open for business.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

BASH: The formidable Kelly Bishop joins me now. She is the author of the fantastic new memoir, "The Third Gilmore Girl". I want to start, of course, with the Gilmore Girls, which is the way that you entitled this, and give our viewers a little bit of a preview of what's in the book.

You write, quote, "I've been asked more times than I can count about my favorite part of the whole Gilmore Girls experience. Right up there at the top of the very long list is the fact that we were a company. An ensemble. There was no star, and that's something I've known about myself since I was a little girl who was falling in love with ballet. I wanted to be a performer, but I never wanted to be a star."

[12:50:16]

Well, newsflash, you are a star. So, that definitely --

BISHOP: OK.

BASH: -- did happen for you despite not necessarily wanting that. So, can you just talk about the designation where you are now, and how everything, not just this, played into your incredible career?

BISHOP: Well, this book has just kind of brought it all together. And as, you know, I hadn't expected to write it. I never had -- it had been suggested to me, and I kept thinking, I don't know why anybody would want to read about me. And no, no, no.

Well, and I thought, OK, I'll give it a shot. And I had a wonderful time doing it.

BASH: Yes.

BISHOP: It was terrific.

BASH: And the Gilmore Girls, it's really amazing how iconic it has been. And you have become your character, Emily Gilmore. I mean, I will tell you that I watched it for the first time in its entirety during the pandemic. The fact that it's streaming on Netflix opened up the floodgates to so many fans.

BISHOP: I spoke to so many people who binged it. I think it's a show that especially young girls and their mothers should watch together. But I think anyone can enjoy it. And I'm very proud of it. I was proud of doing it, and I'm really proud of it now.

BASH: I want to go back in time, because you are a Tony Award winner. You were in a chorus line. You weren't just in it. You were Sheila. And the song at the ballet featured several quotes from your own life. And, in fact, you and others went into a room and kind of poured out your hearts about your own lives, and that became a chorus line.

And I'm wondering what it was like -- I know at first that was a monologue, and then it became a song written by Marvin Hamlisch, which is quite something. What it was like when you first heard it?

BISHOP: That was amazing, because as I mentioned in the book and to anyone else who's ever asked me, I'm not a singer, never was a singer. And then Michael Bennett said to me one day, we are going to take out the -- or -- your section and turn it into a song called "At the Ballet". And as soon as he said song, I'm sure I turned white.

And he said, it'll be a trio. And the relief was palpable, because I love singing, actually, in parts, because I get to sing Bottom (ph). Surprise, surprise. And I think it's a beautiful song. I think it's the prettiest song in the show.

BASH: Sure was. I want to ask about something else in your memoir. You write about a very personal and traumatic experience, and that is the fact that you made a decision to have an abortion. And you share that experience as a way to describe how you felt about your own body and having control of your own body, about the physical ramifications, the emotional ramifications, but also how it shaped your perception of politics.

And that you came here to Washington with Amy Sherman-Palladino, who, of course, is the creator of Gilmore Girls and Mrs. Maisel and others. You attended a rally in 2003. Why was that important to do?

BISHOP: It's because, again, it was all about Roe v. Wade. I believe it was an anniversary. And there was some -- there's always been pushback as far as women's rights go. And I just -- I'm not an activist. I have strong feelings, but I don't get myself very involved.

And I thought I would really like to go to that. I mean, I grew up in the 50s. I remember what it was like when you heard about a girl getting pregnant. Her life was pretty much over. Unless her parents were very rich and they sent her to Europe, and then she came back not pregnant anymore. So I wanted to be a presence there.

BASH: OK, let's fast forward in your career from the "Chorus Line" to "Dirty Dancing". That is the one movie -- well, one of several, but really, if that is on TV, I do not turn it off. I stop whatever I'm doing. I'm late for wherever I'm going.

You played Baby, Frances' mother. And I can't believe I get to ask you this. There's one line in there that I want to play for our viewers and ask you about it on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

(MUSIC)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think she gets that from me.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

BASH: I think she gets that from me. That was after you've done the chorus line. You are a classically trained ballerina. Did you add that in there, or was that scripted?

BISHOP: That was scripted.

BASH: Wow.

BISHOP: And so many people asked me through the years because they knew I was a dancer or whether they were dancers too. And they said, did you put that in? I said, no, it was there.

BASH: Because you're here at CNN, I do want to acknowledge your late husband, Lee Leonard. He helped launch CNN, and I know he was the love of your life.

[12:55:07]

And we have a clip from his very first day on the air in 1980.

BISHOP: OK.

(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)

LEE LEONARD, CNN ANCHOR: Hi, I'm Lee Leonard, and this is the CNN Los Angeles Bureau. Every night at 10:00 Pacific time, we'll bring you Tonight's People, a full hour of talk with celebrities and people making the news.

(END VIDEOCLIP) BISHOP: What a guy. What a guy.

BASH: Yes. He was the love of your life.

BISHOP: Oh, hands down. And I was so smart. I took my time allowing myself to fall in love with him until he passed several tests that he had no idea he was (INAUDIBLE). And then I finally looked at him, and I thought, I can fall in love with this man.

And he never bored me. And that was really it. This man will never bore me. And he never did. Smart, logical, savvy, funny, kind, but tough.

BASH: Thank you. Thank you so much for being here.

Once again, the book is "The Third Gilmore Girl". Kelly Bishop, it is an honor and a pleasure. Thank you so much.

BISHOP: My pleasure. Thank you so much.

BASH: It was a thrill to sit down with Kelly Bishop earlier this week. Thank you so much for watching Inside Politics.

Stay tuned. CNN News Central starts after the break.

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