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Assad Regime Falls Overnight As Rebels Take Syrian Capital; Trump Returns To World Stage As Global Crises Unfold; Trump's Agenda to Face Hurdles Despite GOP Trifecta; Should Biden Pardon Cheney, Schiff, Fauci and Others?; TikTok Ban Looms after Federal Court Ruling. Aired 8-9a ET

Aired December 08, 2024 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:35]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(MUSIC)

MANU RAJU, CNN HOST (voice-over): Assad toppled. The Syrian dictator's regime collapses in a stunning overnight victory for rebel forces.

As Donald Trump returns to the world stage in France.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: It certainly seems like the world is going a little crazy right now.

RAJU: How will the president-elect handle his global tests?

And digging in. New comments from Trump show he's standing by his man.

TRUMP: It looks like Pete is doing well now.

PETE HEGSETH, TRUMP'S DEFENSE SECRETARY NOMINEE: As long as he supports me, I'll be here.

TRUMP: Plus, my brand new reporting on the fate of the Trump agenda. My panel will break it all down.

And times up for TikTok? A federal court clears the way for a TikTok ban in just six weeks. But as 170 million Americans brace for change, will Trump enforce it?

INSIDE POLITICS, the best reporting from inside the corridors of power, starts now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

RAJU (on camera): Good morning. Welcome to INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. I'm Manu Raju. We're following breaking news in the Middle East overnight. Rebels in

Syria have toppled dictator Bashar al-Assad. A stunning development in a 13-year civil war that has cost the lives of more than 500,000 Syrians and impacted millions who have fled their homes in the region.

State TV declared victory of the great Syrian revolution as Assad fled Syria, effectively ending his family's half century rule of the country, the development with sweeping implications.

Now as new videos show rebels and civilians touring and ransacking residents of Assad in Damascus, President-elect Trump said that the United States should have nothing to do with it, adding overnight that, quote, Assad is gone. He has fled his country, his protector, Russia, Russia, Russia, led by Vladimir Putin, was not interested in protecting him any longer.

Now, a source says Assad left Damascus under Russian protection.

Meanwhile, President Biden has not made a public statement yet on the historic developments. But a White House official said he was closely monitoring the situation.

First, let's start things off with CNN's Paula Hancocks, who is live in Abu Dhabi.

Paula, give us a sense of what's happening on the ground in Syria?

PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Manu, we know that millions inside Syria and outside will be celebrating given that the Assad regime is no longer in power.

Now, we understand that he is no longer in Syria as well. This is what we've heard from the Russian ministry of foreign affairs, saying that Assad has left Syria, saying that he also decided to leave his presidential post giving instructions to transfer power peacefully. Now we have no way of independently verifying if that is in fact what he said.

Another source, though, telling CNN that he did leave Damascus under Russian protection. He left to go to the northwest of the country, close to where there is a Russian military base. So, obviously, Russia certainly has its hands with this one as well.

But Russia, as you say, was not there when Assad needed them to, to actually try and shore up power. This was a remarkably fast takeover of power by a group of anti-Assad coalitions of rebel groups, and it has taken really everybody by surprise.

We are seeing images of people going through presidential palaces, families indeed. We've seen children going through having a look around at where President Assad once lived. They see some looting as well. In fact, at this hour, we know that a curfew is being put in place by one of those main rebel groups, HTS. Remember that, that is one of the main groups and they have said that there will be a curfew until 5:00 tomorrow morning to try and calm things down -- Manu.

RAJU: All right. Paula Hancocks on the breaking news. Thanks for that report. Live from Abu Dhabi.

Now, let's break this all down with David Sanger, with "The New York Times", also a CNN analyst; "Bloomberg's" Mario Parker, CNN's Kristen Holmes, and Hans Nichols with "Axios".

Good morning to you all. Nice to see you all.

Quite a night. David, you've been covering this for so many years, this war has been going on for 13 years. This uprising happened so quickly.

But what are the broader implications for the region?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, that's sort of the giant question now, because Syria was more than just a country in the midst of this chaos.

[08:05:07]

It was the funneling point for Hezbollah, for Iranian help, for the Russians, who, of course, have two military bases there including their main naval port. That's outside of Russia. So strategically critical. No one really saw this coming.

As of Friday night, there were many in U.S. intelligence who believed that somehow or another, Assad would hold on because he always has with great brutality. What we discovered was the fragility of his regime, the sort of rot at the core. He was reliant on Hezbollah, which, of course, has been devastated by Israel since September, to some degree by the help of Hamas, certainly by the help of the Russians and the Iranians, both of whom started getting out of town yesterday and that was the sign that he was really gone.

Now, the question is, if you've got a terror group with no understanding or experience in governance, taking over, a terror group that has been on the U.S. terrorism list, its leader with a $10 million bounty on his head suddenly emerging as the greatest power, does that just create a vacuum or a terrorist?

RAJU: Yeah. Talk a little bit more about that, because I think a lot of people have questions about who these rebels are and what their ideology is, and what they would bring to any new government here that's formed.

SANGER: Well, their core was basically a group that once was known as al Qaeda in Syria. Now right now, this group of rebels that have come together is a pretty diverse group and they maintain and evolve group. They've separated from al Qaeda. Their views seem to be all over the map from some more reformist and inclusive to some whose core views, probably haven't changed that much since their al Qaeda days.

RAJU: So this could be bad news potentially for the United States.

SANGER: You know, usually in these kind of cases, we're immediately celebrating, you know, the fall of a dictator. No one is going to shed a single tear for Bashar Assad, who gassed his people, who tried to build nuclear weapons and so forth.

But at the same time, you've got to be leery about what's coming. Now leery, as we should be. If I was the Russians or the Iranians, I'd be even more worried about it. And I think the big question is, how does Iran react?

RAJU: Yeah.

SANGER: Does this push them to go negotiate with President Trump when he comes in and try to put together a new deal? Does this push them to race for the bomb?

RAJU: Mario, you covered the White House. The president has not said anything about this overnight. What do you make of that?

MARIO PARKER, MANAGING EDITOR OF US ECONOMY & GOVERNMENT, BLOOMBERG: No, it's remarkable.

And, David, we were all speaking about this just before. What you're saying is just this, this magnifying of Trump on the world stage, right? We saw him in in Paris yesterday, for example. The symmetry here as Biden becomes smaller and smaller. I traveled with him to Africa this past week.

One of the things that just struck me was he had no interaction with the press. It seemed like he was just kind of ticking off the boxes, not even necessarily just focusing on legacy as much as just going through the motions for this last 40 or so days that he has in the White House.

RAJU: In the meantime, Trump though different, he decided to weigh in multiple times, one overnight and then one yesterday. The one yesterday, he talked about what his own red line is in this.

He said: In any event, Syria is a mess. But this is not our friend. The United States should not have should have nothing to do with it. This is not our fight. He said again. Let it play out. Do not get involved.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, and I actually also want to point to what he said today. And I know you read this earlier because I think that it gives you a little bit of subtext here into how he's currently viewing Russia and Iran in particular.

So one, we don't know who's going to run the Iran profile for our portfolio for Trump yet. So they don't have somebody doing that, they've started to build out their Middle East team, but that's very new.

Two, when you talk about Russia here, he had just come out of a meeting with Zelenskyy when he's and its very clear in the text here --

RAJU: Because he says in this -- just to remind people, he says that he says, I know Vladimir well, he refers to what's going on with the war in Ukraine and talked about how there should be a, quote, immediate cease fire and negotiations.

HOLMES: Well, and he kind of talks down to Putin in this, which we don't often hear from Trump. He says Russia was no longer interested in protecting him any longer. There was no reason for Russia to be there in the first place. He says: They were the only protector that Assad had was Russia.

Clearly, he is -- and we know this about Trump. He takes the -- what's the last person in his ear and then ends up amplifying it. This happens to be a time where he just got out of a meeting with Zelenskyy, but it is very interesting to see how his world view and how what he's putting forward is coming together, particularly as he is in France meeting with world leaders and as he is just, you know, a month away from becoming the actual president.

HANS NICHOLS, POLITICAL REPORTER, AXIOS: And it gives us a sense of what his priorities are, and he wants to blow right past Syria and not necessarily talk about it.

[08:10:02]

To be clear, there's nothing terribly insightful or illuminating you can say about Syria right now. People are still bringing in information, but his priority is going to be ending the war in Ukraine. And he made that very clear. And as you mentioned, he seems to be a little bit, you know he's saying it's up to both Zelenskyy and Putin, but he's being pretty firm and pretty harsh with Putin there. And that may signal something different heading forward in the next couple of weeks.

RAJU: I want you to weigh in on this, too, David, because just to I want you to what he says is about the Ukraine war in the aftermath of what happened in Syria. He said, again, there should be an immediate ceasefire and negotiations should begin.

But -- I mean, does that helpful for Ukraine? In Ukraine concerned about what the negotiations could lead to?

SANGER: So if there's an immediate ceasefire, which everybody would love to see the end of loss of life, what you're also saying is you're going to start the negotiations with Russia occupying 20 percent plus of the country. And of course, we know how that's going to play out. Putin's going to say okay, this parts ours. We'll come to some kind of an agreement, whether it's an armistice or a peace treaty, more likely an armistice. And we'll move on from there.

Now, of course, the big question is what kind of guarantees do you then give Ukraine that in a few years, Putin doesn't just pick up from there and move on to take the rest of the country.

And even on Syria, his statement of we should stay out, which is an agreement fundamentally with what the White House has done, doesn't answer the question, what do you do if Syria becomes this vacuum that someone's going to fill? And the question is, who's that someone? Terror groups, the Russians that's what a long term policy looks like.

It's one thing to say we should stay out today --

RAJU: Yeah.

SANGER: -- the America first problem for him is do you stay out permanently.

And that's really been Trump has really never articulated what his vision is for the Middle East. That's for Israel or anything else.

HOLMES: No, no, he hasn't. And that's kind of Trump overall right. It's this idea of throwing out what he thinks a grand, you know, picture should look like. And then actually not providing any sort of idea of what happens in the interim before you get there.

But again, I do think that its interesting because I think, as you said, there's no point in him really weighing in, in the next, you know, day of what he would do in Syria as this is still unfolding, but it does give us a little bit of a look at how he's looking at the entire picture right now.

RAJU: I want to just weigh in about what the Trump's pick to be the department -- Director of National Intelligence, Tulsi Gabbard. We're talking about Syria. Remember she back in 2017 went to Syria. She met with Bashar al-Assad and she also made some comments that undoubtedly will come back to -- will be asked about this in her confirmation hearings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KASIE HUNT, CNN ANCHOR: Do you think Assad is our enemy?

TULSI GABBARD, TRUMP'S PICK FOR DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: Assad is not the enemy of the United States because the united -- Syria does not pose a direct threat to the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: This will be an issue for her.

NICHOLS: Well, yes.

RAJU: Especially in the aftermath of all this.

NICHOLS: Yeah, she's going to -- she's starting to meet with senators. She has them planned for next week. They have a strategy to get her out and have her explain her views.

But when you look at who Trump really wants to install inside of his cabinet, Tulsi Gabbard is high on that list and he makes -- he's thinking of her as a priority to shake up the intelligence community, to shake up what many people in Trumps orbit call the deep state. That is going to be a key priority for the president.

Just real quickly on the president-elect's general view of the Middle East, he, you know the Abraham Accords were a significant diplomatic victory. And I think one part of his sort of overall vision is establishing that. And extending that with other countries now, how Syria plays into that, I don't know, and I don't think anyone knows.

I mean, if top intelligence analysts 36 hours ago didn't see this coming to fruition or seeing it move this quickly, I certainly can't be expected at this table to know. But these are very complicated and fast moving issues.

SANGER: You know what I think is most interesting about the Tulsi Gabbard comments is whether or not in the hearings that are coming, she can lay out her vision of what American interests are. She's asked there, are they an enemy of the United States and so forth.

But the real question is, what are our interests in the Middle East? What's worth committing aid to? What's worth committing forces to whether what kind of role should the U.S. play in trying to shape the region, if any? And on that, she has been all over the map. And it's interesting because in that job, you are responsible for putting together the presidential daily brief, the vision of the world that Trumps going to get. And so, the question about her is she's been known to hang on to some conspiracy theories and so forth. Is she ready for that?

RAJU: Do you think that she gets confirmed?

PARKER: That's one of the things the Trump folks are looking at with the Hegseth nomination, right? While he hasn't necessarily abandoned him, has been full throated in his support.

[08:15:02]

He's also a heat shield for some of these other nominees, thinking of Gabbard for example, as well, right? One of the fears from the Trump camp when I speak with them is that if they were to abandon Hegseth, that means that the Senate then moves over to Gabbard. At that point because that's what happened with Gaetz as well. So --

RAJU: And that could absolutely happen. We'll see more of that to discuss coming up.

And more on the breaking news in Syria -- I talked with two experts on what it means and what to expect, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RAJU: All right. We're continuing to follow the breaking news out of Syria.

Joining me now to discuss all of it, Colonel Cedric Leighton, and former deputy director of national intelligence, Beth Sanner.

[08:20:01]

Good morning to both of you. Thanks for joining me.

Beth, first to you, in the aftermath of seeing Bashar al-Assad toppled by this rebel uprising, just how unstable is this situation and what do you see actually comes next there? BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, I don't think my crystal ball is working this morning. So, you know, I think that it's very chaotic, right?

But there are some things that are kind of central to this. First is that the prime minister stayed, Jalili, and he has been in touch with the rebel leader, Jolani, who leads HTS. And so this rebel group, as you all have been discussing in the last segment, you know, is going to be the primary force in Syria now. But that doesn't mean that they actually can control the entire situation. And we are seeing just forces moving all over the country trying to gain ground against each other.

The Turkish forces in the north are moving down and they're moving out the Kurdish forces.

You know, we have some rebels in the east and uprisings against the Kurdish forces. And then we have this really cacophony of groups that are under the HTS kind of umbrella right now. But and these range very much ideologically from very, very Islamist, I would say terrorist groups, to you know, more moderate, just kind of pro-Syria nationalist groups.

And so we are going to see things work out. But let's not forget that the international community will be key to this, because the great powers are all going to be involved.

RAJU: And, Colonel, what are the implications of this for Syria's biggest backers like Iran and Russia?

CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yeah, one of the key elements here is the fact that both of these backers, Iran and Russia, specifically have really lost a very valuable ally for them. In the case of the Iranians, it was a Syria was a great conduit for them to deliver arms to Hezbollah.

And quite frankly, Syria was also in essence, if you will, a client state of Iran. And it served as a frontline proxy for the Iranians vis-a-vis Israel. Now as far as Russia is concerned, they've got those two bases, one, a naval base at Tartus, the other in air force, air force base, the Russian air force base near Latakia and those two bases gave Russia -- continue to give Russia a powerful position on the eastern Mediterranean, on the shores of the eastern Mediterranean.

But if the -- if a government formed by HTS or under the auspices of HTS, I -- it moves forward with their desire to rid Syria of all foreign influence, that logically would indicate it would also get rid of the Russian presence there, and whether or not that happens, of course, is another question.

But they certainly based on their public statements, wanting to get rid of the Iranians, they see them as the HTS and Jolani himself see the Iranians as a force for bad in Syria. And it's been one of the driving forces for them. And if they move forward with that, then the Iranians will have one less foothold and become far less powerful in the Middle East, especially with the northern Middle East. RAJU: Now, Beth, we you know, we have not heard from President Biden

yet on this. We have heard multiple a couple of posts, social media posts from President-elect Trump. But what do you just generally think the implications are for the United States, given that these rebel groups, they're ideologically -- they're ideologically very hard line anti-U.S. in many ways.

So what are the implications for the United States in the -- from these developments?

SANNER: Well, look, you know, we've been in the eastern part of that country and the northeast, and then down along the border with Jordan, for years and years, we still have 900 troops there, plus, a lot of contractors.

And we have interests there in terms of ISIS. Now, ISIS has actually been resurgent in the east and attacks have been up about 250 to 300 percent this year. So there's still a worry about that.

HTS is against ISIS and al Qaeda. So that's interesting. But statements from senior Biden officials are that were staying and we have interests there. And we plan on protecting our interests which really is about those we haven't talked about. It much, but the camps that hold tens and tens of thousands of ISIS fighters and their families that the Kurds guard under our protection and auspices, as well.

[08:25:01]

So we have a lot at stake there.

RAJU: And, Colonel, quickly to you, President-elect Trump said yesterday the U.S. should not get involved in Syria. Is that a tenable situation?

LEIGHTON: Not as long as we have troops there, 900 troops, as Beth mentioned is enough to precipitate something. And our job is to watch for ISIS. And that resurgence that that's talked about is a critical factor that will keep us involved in Syria.

RAJU: All right, Colonel Leighton and Beth Sanner, thank you both for sharing your expertise with me this morning. Really appreciate it.

And we're going to continue to stay on the breaking news in Syria.

Plus, Republicans will soon control both chambers of Congress but the GOP to do list is a lot easier said than done. Up next, my brand new reporting on how the GOP rifts could put Trump's agenda in jeopardy.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: How will it be with the one with the zero-seat margin?

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Easy, Manu. It's going to be very easy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:30:22]

RAJU: We're following the breaking news in Syria this morning where rebels swept into the capital Damascus ending the long rule of Bashar al Assad.

And of course, we'll continue to bring you updates as we get them.

But shifting gears, here at home Republicans are already clashing over how to handle Trump's 100-day agenda. It's all a preview of the landmines facing them as they prepare for single party rule.

My brand-new reporting this morning with my excellent colleagues Sarah Ferris and Lauren Fox, dives into the internal battle over how to prioritize the big-ticket items on Trump's agenda.

And of course, by the way, they are operating with one of the smallest House majorities ever -- expected to be 217 to 215 after three resignations early in the new year. Meaning one GOP defection could derail the entire agenda.

Caught in the middle, Speaker Mike Johnson who is trying to play peacemaker.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Look, I can make a case for different sequences of how we do all these priorities but my job here is to build consensus. So we're working to do that in a bicameral fashion.

RAJU: -- important the House works together to (INAUDIBLE).

JOHNSON: Look, we all have the same priorities and it's just a question of the sequence of how we do it. So I'm not going to pre- guess how that -- how that comes out. But we're having fruitful discussions about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And my panel is back.

And joining us now is Julie Davis with "The New York Times". Good morning, Julie.

You've been covering a lot of these internal battles -- this is House versus Senate. Just to set the stage, the new Republican Majority Leader John Thune, wants to move very quickly on a new Trump agenda, dealing with border security, dealing with energy production. And also -- but he's facing pushback from Republicans in the House who say we need to move forward on taxes first.

They say that is if we don't do this all now, then everything could -- that could fall by the wayside and they may not be able to pass these tax cuts that they've been campaigning so heavily on.

This is not just an issue of prioritizing. It's a concern about potentially this all could fall apart if they don't get on the same page.

JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS, "NEW YORK TIMES": Right. I mean, there's so much pent-up demand for the policy that they've been waiting to be in a position to move through Congress. And now that they have this trifecta, they really want to strike while the iron is hot.

But it is the case if you look at history that when one party has control of the White House, the Senate and Congress -- and the House, there's a lot of celebration and a feeling of elation, and we're going to be able to get everything done.

But you find out very quickly that it's difficult to do because you do have internal party divisions on what to do first, what to put the most priority on in the House. As you pointed out, there is a nothing margin of control and we have seen how hard that's been for Mike Johnson and Kevin McCarthy before him to manage. They won't have the option of teaming with Democrats like they did in the last Congress so it's a lot, as you said, easier said than done.

And they do need to kind of get on the same page pretty quickly about on how they're going to do this, because procedurally, you really need to make some decisions in January to be able to sequence this in a way that will work.

RAJU: And because -- just on that point, because there's a process to avoid a Senate filibuster, which means that they can pass things along party lines, but they really can't do that more than they think they can -- some think they can do it a couple of times.

It really can usually be successfully attempted just once, which is why this debate is so critical at this moment.

DAVIS: Right and we saw Democrats struggle with this as well under -- in the first two years of President Biden's term, they had the ability to use reconciliation to get around the filibuster but they couldn't agree on what should be in that package, which to do first, which to put the most priority on.

And this is in some ways a much bigger lift because they are -- you know, the scope of this agenda in terms of how much money this is going to cost and how much policy they're trying to push through this very narrow window of opportunity is quite large.

RAJU: This is what John Cornyn told us. He said, this -- he's a senior Republican in the Senate GOP conference. Said "This is a once in a generational opportunity to do a lot of things and I'm not sure everyone is on the same page."

Perhaps an understatement. But look, they also have to do must-pass items like they've got to fund the government probably by early by March or so of next year and raise the debt limit, which means avoiding debt default. That's always a problem, especially for Republicans.

HANS NICHOLS, POLITICAL REPORTER, AXIOS: I mean, I think the big headline here is that John Cornyn is going to be a truth teller. Now, he's not going to be in -- now he's not going to be the Senate majority leader.

Look I love the word "sequencing". I'm going to use sequencing every time I don't have an answer to something someone wants. Like when an editor asks me about a story, I'm going to say, actually I'm just sequencing it differently. And that's -- and that's how Johnson is talking.

[08:34:46]

NICHOLS: But the sequencing matters, the priorities matter. What you do first -- you have a limited amount of political capital -- what you do first and what you force members to take tough votes on matters.

And that's why I think internally and privately, they all know that they've got to get this right. They just haven't -- I don't think they've quite in the House Republican Conference come to terms nor has the Trump transition that the majorities are that thin.

And if Trump says jump, the answer is not going to be "how high", it's going to be, "here's what I want".

RAJU: Yes.

NICHOLS: And there are a thousand mansions are going to bloom in the House of Representatives. That's mathematically not possible but stay with my metaphor.

And there are going to be some people that are going to have their own priorities, whether or not its salt (ph), whether or not some pet project, they're going to demand it before they vote for what the president wants, and they're going to get it because again, it's just -- it's so tight.

RAJU: Does the Trump -- I asked Mike Johnson there -- what does Trump want. And he wouldn't say. He said look we're trying to essentially sort that out.

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. And I will say -- I think the one thing I'll push back on is I do think that the Trump transition this time is much more prepared for what a narrow majority actually looks like.

And that's why you have a huge slate of lawyers that has been working since basically, Trump lost office to come up with ideas to circumvent Congress, even if he was to have the majority.

He understands and the people like Russ Vought, for example, understand that they are not going to get everything as quickly as they want. They have been trying to draft these executive orders to push through the things that he wants first, and come up with legal, or at least trying to come up with legal ways to do so because they understand how small the majority is and because Donald Trump this time around actually has a better understanding of what this means.

Remember he came into the similar scenario back in 2016, 2017 where he had control. Republicans had control of the House, Senate and the White House.

Now, I will argue --

RAJU: Bigger majorities, though.

HOLMES: Well, it was bigger. And also but I will argue against the one part of that which was the Senate didn't really like him. There was still a number of Republicans in the Senate who were like, who is this guy? And why do we have to support him?

You are looking at a very different Senate here.

RAJU: Yes.

HOLMES: This is a Senate of people that he has backed, that understand, and have gotten behind him. So -- but that being said, I will say that they understand a little bit better than they did last time that this doesn't mean the be-all, end-all.

RAJU: I want to jump in just to shift the conversation to Pete Hegseth, the defense -- Trump's choice to lead the Defense Department. There's been some questions about how some key swing votes may take this up.

Senator Joni Ernst, someone who is not taking a position yet, someone who is a survivor herself of sexual assault and someone -- of course Hegseth has been accused of committing sexual assault back in 2017. He has denied that.

But she made some comments yesterday about her view on that issue.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JONI ERNST (R-IA): I am a survivor of sexual assault. so I've worked very heavily on sexual assault measures within the military. So I'd like to hear a little more about that.

I'm excited to have the opportunity to sit down with him again, but there will be a very thorough vetting before he moves forward.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: How long do you think Trump stands behind Hegseth.

MARIO PARKER, BLOOMBERG MANAGING EDITOR OF U.S. ECONOMY AND GOVERNMENT: He's kind of taking it back to the Chicago schoolyard metaphor a little bit here, right? There's a difference between jumping in a fight to help your friend and just cheering your friend on from the sidelines when they're in the squabble.

What you're seeing from Trump right now is cheering his friend on. the Trump camp. When you speak to them, they say that he's not necessarily expending political capital. Yes, he's standing by him publicly, but he's not necessarily calling AND making phone calls.

They also feel as though they've swayed Joni Ernst a little bit here where her language is toward Hegseth has tempered a little bit.

And again, as I mentioned earlier, the third component of it is that the Trump folks feel as though, hey, let's test it out. Let's see how much of a mandate we do have.

RAJU: Yes.

PARKER: Put it to work. Let's see how much the Senate will acquiesce to us.

RAJU: Very quickly, do you think that he gets confirmed?

DAVIS: I still don't know. I think he bought himself some really important time last week with Trump. But I still think it's a -- it's up, as you heard Joni Ernst say, it's an uphill battle for him to get the votes that he needs.

But we are seeing this very interesting gender divide emerge here where so far the people who have expressed skepticism and not pulled back on that skepticism are three Republican women in the Senate. That is not enough to deny him confirmation.

RAJU: Such a good point. And two of those women, Murkowski and Collins, will be meeting with Hegseth this week. We'll watch that.

And we're going to continue to follow the breaking news in Syria.

President Biden has already made headlines with one controversial pardon. Could more be coming to protect Trump's critics from potential retribution?

The internal debate coming up next.

[08:39:08]

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RAJU: And we're continuing to follow the breaking news in Syria, where Syrian rebels have stormed the palace in Damascus, ending the rule of President Bashar al Assad, who has reportedly left the country.

Of course, we'll keep you up to date on all the latest.

But first, back here in Washington, President Biden faces a big decision in his final 43 days in office. Should he pardon lawmakers and civil servants who might face retribution from incoming Trump administration officials.

One top ally, Democratic Congressman Jim Clyburn says yes. But many in his own party, including some who have faced those threats like Senator-Elect Adam Schiff have said no thanks. Rejecting the unprecedented use of the president's clemency powers and fearful about the optics when no specific crimes have been alleged. My panel is back.

Mario, you covered the White House. Our reporting is that some of the top aides are having these discussions about these preemptive pardons. What are you hearing about the likelihood of that?

PARKER: Well, they're saying -- I mean, you heard Karine Jean-Pierre on Friday say that there are -- that more pardons are likely right. They're coming down the pike.

[08:44:49]

PARKER: How the scope or how many or how sweeping they will be is still up for grabs.

There is this debate, right, as to whether or not Democrats should cede this moral high ground, and what lessons they've learned from the election doing things the right way especially in the politics of Trump right now, right.

So that was Clyburn's suggestion to Biden.

And the other part is that you've got Democrats still urging Biden to do so because they're saying, hey, we feel pretty good about our moral standing. Looking ahead to the next four years and the likelihood of who Trump pardons -- January 6th supporters, et cetera.

RAJU: Do you think that Trump is going to -- his team is actually going to go after these critics of his, like he said on the campaign trail that he would?

HOLMES: Honestly, I don't think we know right now what that's going to look like. I don't think it's the top of their agenda to go after some of these people.

But I mean, the things that he can do, he will do. Like, do I think he's going to fire Jack Smith immediately? Yes, of course. Do I think he's going to do sweeping fires and, you know, go after bureaucrats in the government that he thinks possibly held up his agenda the first time around? Yes, I do think so.

Do I think that he's going to seek active retribution? I just don't know at this point. One thing I'll say about the pardons is that Donald Trump is going to do what Donald Trump wants to do.

So this argument overall, that this is setting some kind of precedent -- that I think should be taken into consideration --

RAJU: He'll still do it.

HOLMES: Right. He'll still do it.

(CROSSTALKING)

RAJU: The question, too, is that if he does it, it could overshadow, of course, parts of Biden's legacy, which of course, he's very mindful of. Just on your screen, things that they want to be talking about. All of his -- the achievements, the bills that they passed over the last -- first two years of his presidency. This could overshadow some of that.

NICHOLS: Yes, it's the -- it's the sort of moral imperative argument that we're all -- and that's why I think Democrats are so -- and they say this both publicly and privately why they're so upset about this, because they wanted to be sure to have the moral authority to criticize Trump on any pardons that they expect him to make. And they've lost it with the -- with the Hunter Biden pardon.

I think one thing we can be certain about just not even -- whether or not they're preemptive or not or retrospective pardons, Joe Biden is going to do a lot more pardons. His numbers are historically low. The pardons always spike at the last 2 or 3 months of a -- of a president's final term in office.

So we can expect more. Whether or not they're sort of standard pardons, whether they're political favors or political wrongs. But there're going to be more and this is going to be a big -- a big topic of conversation.

RAJU: You know, meantime, this comes as Democrats are trying to figure out what their best strategy is now that Trump, of course, will be president again. They're in the minority.

Do they do what they did last time? Act essentially as the resistance of sorts, try to battle everything that Donald Trump did. Or do they pick and choose their battles?

I caught up with Senator John Fetterman, who is advocating very much the latter approach.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): If you really, really want to freak out, that's your prerogative. But you're going to have plenty of time to do those things.

But me -- for me personally, I'm going to be picking my battles.

RAJU: Do you think that voters don't want to hear Democrats complain about everything Trump is doing?

FETTERMAN: Well, I mean, sure, sometimes we want to push back against core values or other things, but if everything's a freak out, then people can just tune you out.

So at some point, if you don't just pick your spots, then no one's going to just pay attention at that point.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, he also told me that on the nominees themselves, he's kind of doing the same thing. But the question is how long does that last? And will all the Democrats follow suit with that strategy? DAVIS: Well yes, I mean, it's a real debate because obviously there is

a lot of very sincere panic and feeling that they should push back as strongly as possible because the Republicans control the entire Congress and President -- or President-Elect Trump is coming into the White House.

So there is a feeling among some Democrats that they just need to go all out. But what you've seen on the nominees in particular from Chuck Schumer, for instance, has been interesting.

He's been, you know, pretty quiet on some of these people because he sees that there are divisions among Republicans and it's more effective, he thinks, for, you know people to see that all play out before Democrats jump in and say, he's bad, she's bad, he's bad, she's bad.

RAJU: Yes.

DAVIS: But --

RAJU: But that's much different than last time --

DAVIS: Much different than last time. But they're not in control yet. Or the Congress is not here yet. So when those confirmation battles start to really play out that's going to probably have to end.

RAJU: Things very much will change.

All right. Great discussion.

We'll have more on the breaking news out of Syria this morning.

Plus 170 million Americans who use TikTok, well -- could that number be zero in a matter of weeks?

What to watch next.

[08:49:08]

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RAJU: Here's a story that might not end up going viral. TikTok users in the United States may have only six weeks to keep enjoying the popular app.

The social sensation is now officially one step closer to being permanently banned after a U.S. appeals court upheld a bipartisan law that could block the app by January 19th.

Now, with over 170 million users, and that's half of the U.S. population, influencers have been quick to react to the ruling, many with outrage.

For many creators and small businesses. TikTok has become more than just a video-sharing app. It has become a global hub to build brands, connect with audiences and earn a living. But lawmakers voiced national security concerns that the Chinese

parent company Bytedance could exploit Americans' private information and the law that passed in April with wide bipartisan support called on Bytedance to sell the app or risk seeing it banned.

[08:54:43]

RAJU: Now, the measure was tied to a larger foreign aid package that passed the GOP-led House 360 to 58 and a Democratic-led Senate 79 to 18. And Joe Biden signed it into law.

So now the question is, will Donald Trump enforce it? Trump tried to ban TikTok during his first term, but now he's promising to save it.

His options to do that, however, are limited. He could direct his Justice Department to simply ignore the law, or he could determine that the law does not actually apply to TikTok.

TikTok, for its part is vowing to appeal to the Supreme Court saying the current ruling, quote, "will silence the voices of over 170 million Americans here in the U.S. and around the world".

Now, if the Chinese parent company opts not to sell the app, it could be 42 days before it goes away in the United States.

That's it for INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. You can follow me on X @mkraju. You can follow the show @INSIDEPOLITICS and follow me on Instagram @manu_raju.

If you ever miss an episode, catch up wherever you get your podcasts. Just search for INSIDE POLITICS.

Up next, "STATE OF THE UNION WITH JAKE TAPPER AND DANA BASH". Jake talks with former Defense secretary Mark Esper, Republican Senator Markwayne Mullin, and the number two Senate Democrat Dick Durbin.

Thanks again for sharing your Sunday morning with us. We'll see you next time.

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