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Inside Politics
Republicans Clashing Over Next Steps For Trump's Agenda; Ernst Again Calls For Thorough Vetting Of Pete Hegseth; Biden Considers Preemptive Pardons For Trump Critics; Trump On Jan. 6. Committee Members: "They Should Go To Jail"; Trump Says He'll Pardon Jan. 6 Rioters On First Day In Office; Assad Regime Collapses As Rebels Takes Syrian Capital. Aired 11a-12p ET
Aired December 08, 2024 - 11:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
[11:00:08]
MANU RAJU, CNN HOST: Good morning. Welcome to INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY, I'm Manu Raju.
We're following two breaking stories this morning. Rebels in Syria have toppled dictator Bashar al-Assad, a stunning development of 13 years civil war that's cost the lives of more than 500,000 Syrians and impacted millions who had fled their homes in the region.
For just moments ago, President-elect Donald Trump is making news in a brand-new interview that just aired on NBC News.
He promised to deport all undocumented immigrants, but saying he supported a deal on undocumented migrants brought to the United States as children. Trump also promised not to cut Social Security or Medicare, but stood by his threat to impose tariffs on U.S. trading partners. Though he could not guarantee it would not raise Americans' prices.
And he promised that the members of the January 6th Select Committee should go to jail and vouch to pardon January 6 rioters on day one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: And Cheney was behind it. And so was Benny Thompson and everybody on that committee.
KRISTEN WELKER, NBC NEWS HOST: We're going to-
TRUMP: For what they did-
WELKER: Yes.
TRUMP. Honestly, they should go to jail.
WELKER: So you think Liz Cheney should go to jail? TRUMP: For what they did --
WELKER: Everyone on the committee you think should go to jail.
TRUMP: I think everybody on the -- anybody that voted in favor --
WELKER: Are you going to --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: All right. Let's break this all down with a great panel this morning. David Sanger with "The New York Times." He's also a CNN analyst. Bloomberg's Mario Parker. CNN's Kristen Holmes. and Julie Davis of the -- also of "The New York Times." Thank you both. Thank you all for being here. Appreciate it.
So, David, he says he's going to jail these January -- so he wants to see them go to jail. The people who served on the January 6th Select Committee.
Remember, this is a committee in the House that investigated the insurrection that happened at the Capitol and found Donald Trump, essentially incited that riot, found him responsible in many ways, in that investigation. There are two Republicans on that committee.
There's other Democrats as well, mostly Democrats. What's the reaction to him saying they should go to jail? He says it's not -- he's not going to direct his FBI director to prosecute them, but he wants them to go to jail.
DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL AND NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, first of all, it's pretty classic. It's exactly what he said during the campaign.
What you have here are members of a Congressional Committee, Select Committee that he called the Unselect Committee during this time, in their official acts. And he's maintaining that for their official acts, they ought to go to jail.
Right after the Supreme Court ruled that for his official acts, he should be exempted. It is pretty remarkable. I don't think I have heard before an American president, incoming or serving say that somebody should go to jail for basically how they voted on a committee.
RAJU: Yes. I mean members of Congress, of course, their own protect -- constitutional protections on how they can act.
SANGER: Yes.
RAJU: They're protected by the speech or debate clause of the United States Constitution.
But, you know, he's saying -- he's trying to be a little bit more nuanced in this -- in this interview today, saying that there should be an investigation. You know, he's not going to direct his FBI director or direct his attorney general to actually prosecute his critics, but, you know, I wouldn't mind if they go to jail.
MARIO PARKER, BLOOMBERG MANAGING EDITOR OF U.S. ECONOMY AND GOVERNMENT: Yes. So I mean, it's a little bit of the Trump telepathy, right? His closest aides will do the right thing there.
But some of this, I mean, we don't know how it's going to shake out, but some of this does remind me of the 2016 campaign, right? Nothing ever -- they didn't go after Hillary Clinton after this was all said and done. There was still tough talk about it. There was still the -- I mean, even in this campaign, there's still the "lock her up" chants, the last one. But he never really went after her.
You also heard him say that he's focused on drill, baby drill, and all of his looking for it with his legislative agenda as well.
RAJU: You know, he's talking about, you know, Kristen Welker of the NBC News, anchor, asked him about previous social media posts about appointing a special prosecutor to go after Joe Biden. He said, I don't really want to focus on that now, but unless something comes up.
[11:05:10]
KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, : Well, I don't want to look to the past. I want to move forward, which is obviously something very different than we've heard before.
And just to your point about the Hillary Clinton thing, he has actually kind of said that he regrets not going after Hillary Clinton, particularly in light of the DOJ cases against himself. So whether or not that factors into how he handles this time around remains to be seen.
And, clearly, there's one person, and we saw this just in the interview, that he's the most angry at, which is Liz Cheney. I mean, he has said time and time again that he essentially wants to go after Liz Cheney.
How that all plays out really, again, remains to be seen. Because whether or not he actually takes action on it, or he's just kind of using this rhetoric. I don't think we know yet.
RAJU: Yes. And how do Pam Bondi, who's chosen to be his new attorney general, she has to get confirmed by the Senate, Kash Patel, he has to get confirmed by the Senate, assuming that Donald Trump will have to fire the current FBI director of Christopher Wray, assuming he does not settle down. He's got three-year left on his -- on his -- years left on his term.
But how did Bondi and Patel, assuming they're confirmed, take those comments from Trump, saying, OK, it's up to them, but they should go to jail.
JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS, CONGRESSIONAL EDITOR, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, let's not forget that one of the reasons that he didn't go after people the way he said he wanted to during the 2016 campaign is because, as he's talked about at length, his own people inside of his administration in the first term, were pushing back on some of that, right?
So now he has these people in place, if Kash Patel and Pam Bondi get confirmed, who are very loyal to him, who have made it very clear that his agenda is their agenda.
And in that interview, he did sort of pull back from his normal sort of bluster on, I can do what I want, and I'm going to direct this and that. But he also called himself the chief law enforcement officer of the United States.
RAJU: Yes.
DAVIS: And was very clear on that. And it is very clear that he expects his people to do what he wants them to do, which he characterizes as what the nation wants to have done.
RAJU: YES.
DAVIS: So it's -- you know, the messages are very clear. He's not saying, I direct you to send them to prison. But by the way, they belong in prison.
RAJU: Speaking of the people in prison that he wants to pardon, the people who are convicted for their roles on the January 6 attack, some of them actually pleaded guilty, serving jail time. But Donald Trump says that he's going to essentially pardon them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: I'm going to be acting very quickly.
WELKER: Within your first 100 days, first day?
TRUMP: First day.
WELKER: First day.
TRUMP: Yes. I'm looking first day.
WELKER: First issue these pardons?
TRUMP: These people have been to -- how long is it? Three or four years.
WELKER: Right.
TRUMP: You know, by the way, they've been in there for years. And they're in a filthy disgusting place that shouldn't even be allowed to be open.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: I mean, the -- he's painting them all with his broad broads. But there are some serious people who are convicted for some serious charges, like formerly of the Proud Boys, for seditious conspiracy.
SANGER: Yes.
RAJU: And is he talking about all of them?
SANGER: Sure. It sounds like he's talking about all of them, including those who have been convicted on the most serious charges I think that we've heard in, you know, decades. Seditious conspiracy is not a charge that the Justice Department throws around lightly. And they were convicted? Some of them have very long terms.
But this is part of his rewriting of history, that this was not a day of crimes and violence. This was the day of love, as he -- as he argued. And by issuing a pardon, he's trying to rewrite that history.
RAJU: Well, how do you think he's going to handle the pardons? You talked to Trump campaign, you covered the Trump campaign.
HOLMES: It really depends on who you talk to. So, for example, Mike Davis, one of Trump's outside legal advisors, who's probably one of the most extreme outside legal advisors, thinks Donald Trump and has advised Donald Trump to pardon everyone who was involved in January 6th.
If you talk to other members of the incoming administration, they say it's going to be taken on a case by case basis.
I don't think we really have any idea what this is going to look like. The only thing that we know is that he's going to issue pardons likely right away. Because this is something he promised on the campaign trail. It's not just stuff he promised publicly. He also made these promises privately to these people, to their families. He campaigned off of this. So it is something that he's not going to go back on in any way.
Whether or not he actually listens to the people telling him it should be a case by case basis, or to the people telling him, let's paint this with a broad brush and just let everybody off the hook, remains to be seen.
RAJU: And Democrats, I wonder how they will respond to the pardons. We have not really heard much from them about -- you know, Trump has been talking about this on the campaign trail. Harris didn't really talk about that, criticized him for this much really at all. Biden really isn't saying much about this, even though I'm sure they are unnerved by Biden.
DAVIS: Well, I think there's going to be a huge outrage on the democratic side if he does this. You know, these are not only people that were convicted of seditious conspiracy. These are people who assaulted police officers who were stationed at the Capitol.
I mean, this is -- you know, these are some serious, serious offenses. And I think one of the reasons we saw so much democratic pushback from President Biden's pardoning of his son, and some of the reasons that there's been so much hand-wringing about potential blanket pardons for others, including Liz Cheney, by the way, is that they worry that, you know, if Trump says these people were victims of a political prosecution, so I'm pardoning them, that's basically exactly what President Biden just said about his son.
[11:10:16]
RAJU: But, you know, Trump is going to do this anyways, regardless of what Hunter Biden -- Biden did for Hunter Biden.
PARKER: And that was the thing, right? Because in some ways what we're saying is that this is a part of Trump's political identity at this point, right? We saw later in the interview that he refused to still concede the 2020 election.
He faced --
RAJU: Yes. He said, like, yes, I don't want to get into that. And Kristen Welker said, well, you did lose. He said, well, that's, you know, opinion. Well, it wasn't opinion. It's fact. He lost the 2020 election.
PARKER: Exactly. And so, part of any of these folks who were fighting on his behalf to him is part and parcel to his reelection, right? He won reelection in the face of felony convictions, in the face of investigations, in the face of the January 6th Committee. So, for him, this is affirming. And so, he feels as though he has this mandate to pardon these people.
RAJU: One thing he also feels as a mandate to do is on the issue of immigration. And this, of course, he talked about on the campaign trail, deporting all the migrants who are here illegally. And he was asked about that in the interview today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WELKER: Is it your plan to deport everyone who is here illegally over the next four years?
TRUMP: Well, I think you have to do it. And it's a -- it's a very tough thing to do. It's -- but you have to have -- you know, you have rules, regulations, laws, they came in illegally.
Yes, we're going to do something about the Dreamers and --
WELKER: What does that mean? What are you going to do?
TRUMP: I will work with the Democrats on a plan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: Work with Democrats on a plan. The Dreamers, of course, are the people who came to the country illegally at a young age and what to do about them.
But it shows you that even though he said, we're going to deport everybody, this is obviously going to be very complicated to carry out, but also could be politically toxic if you're starting to go after people like the Dreamers. And Trump seems to acknowledge that there. DAVIS: He does. And, by the way, this is something we have heard from Trump before. He's going to work with Democrats on a plan for the Dreamers. We've heard that in his first term. And he has agonized over this, in part, because of what you're saying. I think he recognizes. And many people around him recognize the political toxicity of potentially sending home people who have been here for their entire lives, essentially.
But he also, at very key points in the negotiation about this during his first term, pulled back and basically called that amnesty. And so there's this very stark line he wants to draw that everyone who is here undocumented has committed a serious crime and needs to leave.
And the fact that there's this whole group of people that, you know, elicits, and he talked very glowingly about them in that interview, elicits a lot more sympathy. Even from the people who support Donald Trump and who support a very hard line.
RAJU: Yes. How will those people react if Trump has a more nuanced position on immigration than he espoused on the campaign trail?
HOLMES: I will say that overall, the people who voted for Donald Trump are going to go along with anything that he said. There's some reason for why he did it. That's the kind of thing that you see online with all of these, like, far right, conservative, you know, social media, stars, when they are all in on whatever Donald Trump says, and then he changes his mind. So I don't think it's going to be that difficult in that case.
I will say that even what he said the first term, the entire campaign, I mean, this was the most sympathetic I've ever seen him in terms of immigration at all on anyone.
I mean, the entire campaign was all about, let's get everybody out of here.
RAJU: Yes.
HOLMES: There's absolutely no loopholes. No one can stay. Clearly, he is having some kind of considerations now that he's actually won in terms of what makes the most political sense, but this is not -- despite what he did the first time, this is not the kind of rhetoric that he used for the last two years at all.
RAJU: And one thing is about the issue of tariffs. Remember, he threatened to tariff -- post tariffs. Really had all U.S. imports while he was campaigning.
That has, you know, and has been more specific. I'm talking about Canada, Mexico, and China in recent weeks. He was asked about the impact this has had -- have on Americans and the prices at the grocery store.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WELKER: Can you guarantee American families won't pay more? TRUMP: I can't guarantee anything. I can't guarantee tomorrow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: You know, but he also stood by his tariff threat. How do the foreign governments react to this threat of imposing tariffs on them?
SANGER: Well --
RAJU: How concerned are they right now?
SANGER: Yes. I mean, they're deeply concerned. You could see how quickly -- you saw Justin Trudeau come to Mar-a-Lago. You obviously saw a conversation with the Mexican president. The Chinese have reason to be the most concerned.
But they also know that this could be the fuel for incredible inflation. That, you know, in the end, though Donald Trump has said often that it's the Chinese who pay the tariffs, or it's the Mexicans or the Canadians who pay the tariffs.
It's actually all of us --
RAJU: Yes.
SANGER: -- who pay the tariffs.
And a re-ignition of inflation after it has finally been sort of wound back down in the past year is not really the way he wants to start his first term.
RAJU: Yes.
SANGER: So one has to assume, this is mostly bargaining trip.
[11:15:03]
RAJU: Yes. Negotiating tactic.
All right. Okay. Great discussion. There's much more news coming up, including the breaking news in Syria. Rebels have toppled dictator Bashar al-Assad. New insight on what it means and what comes next. That's after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RAJU: We're continuing to follow the breaking news this morning in Syria, as the Assad regime has been toppled. Rebel leader is making his first public comments this morning, calling it a victory for the entire Islamic nation. And saying it, quote, marks a new chapter in the history of the region.
Joining me now are former congressman Adam Kinzinger and former Deputy Director of National Intelligence, Beth Sanner. Good morning to you both. Thanks for joining me.
[11:20:03]
Mr. Kinzinger, you serve when you're in Congress on the Foreign Affairs Committee and were stationed in the region during your time in the military. What is the impact of the fall of Assad?
ADAM KINZINGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, this is massive. And the amazing thing is when history changes, it changes in like 24 or 48 hours. I mean, there's like periods of long periods of no change and then just radical change. And that's what this is showing in Syria.
This is, first off, a major setback, a major setback for Iran, a major setback for Russia. Two of our, you know, I guess I'll say competitors, quite nicely.
And this has the potential to bring real freedom to the people of Syria who for 10 years or 12 years have lived under this brutal disgusting oppression. So this is a great thing.
Now, of course, we have to see what does post-governing look like and there's all these questions but today's a great day to celebrate the -- what could potentially be the death of Assad but certainly the deposement (ph) of him.
RAJU: And, Beth, the U.S.'s top ally in the region, Israel, is now sending troops into Syria to occupy a buffer zone with the Islamist rebels. So, what does that tell you about how the fall of Assad could have a wider impact in the region?
BETH SANNER, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Israel also has been, you know, steadily bombing including today an air base outside of Damascus on Friday, a chemical weapons depot in the south. They have this land border along the Golan Heights that overlooks the Lebanese border. It's also the place where they get about a third of their fresh water.
So they have a lot at stake here in terms of, they don't want the weapons that are really series of wash and weapons. They do not want those to get into the wrong hands and they've got to protect their settlements in the Golan Heights. So they're engaged and we're working with.
RAJU: And Congressman Kinzinger, Donald Trump first posted on social media for the U.S. to stay out of the situation in Syria.
And today, he also said that the fall of Assad, in this post, he said, that should lead to a ceasefire and a negotiated settlement in Russia's war with Ukraine.
And what he's saying there, both for the U.S. to stay out of Syria and for leading to a negotiation and settlement between Russia and Ukraine, is that realistic?
KINZINGER: Well, I think in terms of the U.S. staying out, generally, it is realistic. Now, we do support the SDF, the Syrian Democratic Forces. And they are also on the move in Syria. This is made up largely of Kurds.
So there will be an extent of American involvement, but nobody's talking about putting American troops in there. That would destabilize the situation. Ultimately, Syria has to figure this out for themselves.
Now in terms of, will this lead to a negotiated solution in Ukraine? It could, if in fact Russia recognizes that they're -- they've lost now a huge interest in the Middle East. That's something that they need to be concerned and focused on. And they recognize that this means that they could easily lose Ukraine.
The question -- I mean, everybody's all for negotiation in Ukraine. Everybody's all for a ceasefire. The question is on whose terms does that ceasefire come?
And after Russia attacked Ukraine and illegally occupied a significant amount of its territory, it can't come on Russia's terms.
Now also really quickly, if I was in the regime in Georgia that just stolen election from the Georgian people, as they're out on the streets of Tbilisi and everywhere else, I'd be nervous because this is --
RAJU: Yes.
KINZINGER: -- a moment where freedom appears to be on the march.
RAJU: And, Beth, what do we know about the rebels who toppled the Assad regime? What ideology they bring as they try to potentially form a new government?
SANNER: Right. Well, you know, HTS has kind of a mixed record in terms of what they did in Idlib. They come out of ISIS, but their leader, Jolani, is absolutely a great strategist. I mean, just an impressive figure that really has tried to change the image.
They've done a lot on the ground. That's positive, but they've also ruled with an iron fist. So, you know, they're not like ISIS. They're not quite like the Taliban. Women don't have to wear hijab. People can go to churches.
But this -- he noted, when you read the piece in the beginning, he called this an Islamic state. Well, the Christians and the Alawites and the Druids who live there, you know, might not exactly share that viewpoint.
This is an armed group, an Islamic group, and certainly we are going to expect Gulf States, for example, not to be very supportive of the HTS coming to power.
And Jolani has a $10 million bounty on his head from the United States, just --
RAJU: Yes.
SANNER: That's an insight.
RAJU: And, Mr. Kinzinger, I want to ask you one other thing about some news that Donald Trump made this morning interview that just came out.
He talked to Kristen Welker about the January 6 Select Committee. Of course, you served on the January 6 Select Committee. And he said that they should quote, go to jail referring to the members who served on that committee.
[11:25:10]
What is your reaction? And are you worried that Donald Trump will try to put you in jail?
KINZINGER: No. I absolutely don't worry about this. First off, the executive branch can't go after the legislative branch because we embarrassed him. That's not a sin. That's not against the law.
Ultimately, when we talked about him throwing his ketchup at hamburger against the wall, there's nothing illegal about that.
And most of the people that testified were actually his -- Republicans, you know, fellow Republicans that went up and spoken him.
So, look, he's all but her right now because he was embarrassed. He's not going to come after us. And I'm not worried about it at all in the least.
RAJU: OK. All right. Mr. Kinzinger, Adam Kinzinger, former Congressman. Beth Sanner, appreciate both of your expertise this morning. Really appreciate your time.
And we're staying on that breaking news out of Syria, but there's other news too.
Plus, Republicans soon control both chambers of Congress. But that to- do list is a lot easier said than done. My new reporting next about how the Republican rifts could put Trump's agenda in jeopardy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: How Donald Trump (INAUDIBLE) with a zero C margin?
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): Easy, Manu. That's going to be very easy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:30:37]
RAJU: We're following the breaking news in Syria this morning, where rebels swept into the capital Damascus, ending the long rule of Bashar al-Assad, and of course, we'll continue to bring you updates as we get them. But shifting gears here at home, Republicans are already clashing over
how to handle Trump's 100-day agenda. It's all a preview of the landmines facing them as they prepare for single-party rule.
My brand-new reporting this morning with my excellent colleagues Sarah Ferris and Lauren Fox, dives into the internal battle over how to prioritize the big-ticket items on Trump's agenda.
And of course, by the way, they are operating with one of the smallest House majorities ever -- expected to be 217 to 215 after three resignations early in the new year. Meaning one GOP defection could derail the entire agenda.
Caught in the middle, Speaker Mike Johnson who is trying to play peacemaker.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Look, I can make a case for different sequences of how we do all these priorities but my job here is to build consensus. So we're working to do that in a bicameral fashion.
RAJU: How supportive of the House (INAUDIBLE).
JOHNSON: Look, we all have the same priorities and it's just a question of the sequence of how we do it. So I'm not going to pre- guess how that -- how that comes out. But we're having fruitful discussions about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: And my panel is back.
And joining us now is Julie Davis with "The New York Times." Good morning, Julie.
You've been covering a lot of these internal battles -- this is House versus Senate. Just to set the stage, the new Republican Majority Leader John Thune, wants to move very quickly on a new Trump agenda, dealing with border security, dealing with energy production. And also -- but he's facing pushback from Republicans in the House who say we need to move forward on taxes first.
They say that is if we don't do this all now, then everything could -- that could fall by the wayside and they may not be able to pass these tax cuts that they've been campaigning so heavily on.
This is not just an issue of prioritizing. It's a concern about potentially this all could fall apart if they don't get on the same page.
JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS, "NEW YORK TIMES" CONGRESSIONAL EDITOR: Right. I mean, there's so much pent-up demand for the policy that they've been waiting to be in a position to move through Congress. And now that they have this trifecta, they really want to strike while the iron is hot.
But it is the case if you look at history that when one party has control of the White House, the Senate and Congress -- and the House, there's a lot of celebration and a feeling of elation, and we're going to be able to get everything done.
But you find out very quickly that it's difficult to do because you do have internal party divisions on what to do first, what to put the most priority on in the House. As you pointed out, there is a nothing margin of control and we have seen how hard that's been for Mike Johnson and Kevin McCarthy before him to manage. They won't have the option of teaming with Democrats like they did in the last Congress so it's a lot, as you said, easier said than done.
And they do need to kind of get on the same page pretty quickly about on how they're going to do this, because procedurally, you really need to make some decisions in January to be able to sequence this in a way that will work.
RAJU: And because -- just on that point, because there's a process to avoid a Senate filibuster, which means that they can pass things along party lines, but they really can't do that more than they think they can -- some think they can do it a couple of times. It really can usually be successfully attempted just once, which is why this debate is so critical at this moment.
DAVIS: Right and we saw Democrats struggle with this as well under -- in the first two years of President Biden's term, they had the ability to use reconciliation to get around the filibuster but they couldn't agree on what should be in that package, which to do first, which to put the most priority on.
And this is in some ways a much bigger lift because they are -- you know, the scope of this agenda in terms of how much money this is going to cost and how much policy they're trying to push through this very narrow window of opportunity is quite large.
RAJU: This is what John Cornyn told us. He said, this -- he's a senior Republican in the Senate GOP conference. Said "This is a once in a generational opportunity to do a lot of things and I'm not sure everyone is on the same page."
Perhaps an understatement. But look, they also have to do must-pass items like they've got to fund the government probably by early by March or so of next year and raise the debt limit, which means avoiding debt default. That's always a problem, especially for Republicans.
HANS NICHOLS, AXIOS POLITICAL REPORTER: I mean, I think the big headline here is that John Cornyn is going to be a truth teller. Now, he's not going to be in -- now he's not going to be the Senate majority leader.
Look I love the word "sequencing". I'm going to use sequencing every time I don't have an answer to something someone wants. Like when an editor asks me about a story, I'm going to say, actually I'm just sequencing it differently. And that's -- and that's how Johnson is talking.
[11:35:01]
NICHOLS: But the sequencing matters, the priorities matter. What you do first -- you have a limited amount of political capital -- what you do first and what you force members to take tough votes on matters.
And that's why I think internally and privately, they all know that they've got to get this right. They just haven't -- I don't think they've quite in the House Republican Conference come to terms nor has the Trump transition that the majorities are that thin.
And if Trump says jump, the answer is not going to be "how high", it's going to be, "here's what I want".
RAJU: Yes.
NICHOLS: And there are a thousand mansions are going to bloom in the House of Representatives. That's mathematically not possible but stay with my metaphor.
RAJU: Yeah.
NICHOLS: And there are going to be some people that are going to have their own priorities, whether or not its SALT, whether or not some pet project, they're going to demand it before they vote for what the president wants, and they're going to get it because again, it's just -- it's so tight.
RAJU: Does the Trump -- I asked Mike Johnson there -- what does Trump want. And he wouldn't say. He said look we're trying to essentially sort that out.
HOLMES: Yes. And I will say -- I think the one thing I'll push back on is I do think that the Trump transition this time is much more prepared for what a narrow majority actually looks like.
And that's why you have a huge slate of lawyers that has been working since basically, Trump lost office to come up with ideas to circumvent Congress, even if he was to have the majority.
He understands and the people like Russ Vought, for example, understand that they are not going to get everything as quickly as they want. They have been trying to draft these executive orders to push through the things that he wants first, and come up with legal, or at least trying to come up with legal ways to do so because they understand how small the majority is and because Donald Trump this time around actually has a better understanding of what this means.
Remember he came into the similar scenario back in 2016, 2017 where he had control. Republicans had control of the House, Senate and the White House.
Now, I will argue --
RAJU: Bigger majorities, though. HOLMES: Well, it was bigger. And also but I will argue against the one part of that which was the Senate didn't really like him. There was still a number of Republicans in the Senate who were like, who is this guy? And why do we have to support him?
You are looking at a very different Senate here.
RAJU: Yes.
HOLMES: This is a Senate of people that he has backed, that understand, and have gotten behind him. So -- but that being said, I will say that they understand a little bit better than they did last time that this doesn't mean the be-all, end-all.
RAJU: I want to jump in just to shift the conversation to Pete Hegseth, the defense -- Trump's choice to lead the Defense Department. There's been some questions about how some key swing votes may take this up.
Senator Joni Ernst, someone who is not taking a position yet, someone who is a survivor herself of sexual assault and someone -- of course Hegseth has been accused of committing sexual assault back in 2017. He has denied that. But she made some comments yesterday about her view on that issue.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JONI ERNST (R-IA): I am a survivor of sexual assault. so I've worked very heavily on sexual assault measures within the military. So I'd like to hear a little more about that. I'm excited to have the opportunity to sit down with him again, but there will be a very thorough vetting before he moves forward.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: How long do you think Trump stands behind Hegseth.
PARKER: He's kind of taking it back to the Chicago schoolyard metaphor a little bit here, right? There's a difference between jumping in a fight to help your friend and just cheering your friend on from the sidelines when they're in the squabble.
What you're seeing from Trump right now is cheering his friend on. the Trump camp. When you speak to them, they say that he's not necessarily expending political capital. Yes, he's standing by him publicly, but he's not necessarily calling and making phone calls.
They also feel as though they've swayed Joni Ernst a little bit here where her language is toward Hegseth has tempered a little bit.
And again, as I mentioned earlier, the third component of it is that the Trump folks feel as though, hey, let's test it out. Let's see how much of a mandate we do have.
RAJU: Yes.
PARKER: Put it to work. Let's see how much the Senate will acquiesce to us.
RAJU: Very quickly, do you think that he gets confirmed?
DAVIS: I still don't know. I think he bought himself some really important time last week with Trump. But I still think it's a -- it's up, as you heard Joni Ernst say, it's an uphill battle for him to get the votes that he needs.
But we are seeing this very interesting gender divide emerge here where so far the people who have expressed skepticism and not pulled back on that skepticism are three Republican women in the Senate. That is not enough to deny him confirmation.
RAJU: Such a good point. And two of those women, Murkowski and Collins, will be meeting with Hegseth this week. We'll watch that.
And we're going to continue to follow the breaking news in Syria.
President Biden has already made headlines with one controversial pardon. Could more be coming to protect Trump's critics from potential retribution?
The internal debate coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:44:02]
RAJU: And we're continuing to follow the breaking news in Syria, where Syrian rebels have stormed the palace in Damascus, ending the rule of President Bashar al Assad, who has reportedly left the country. Of course, we'll keep you up to date on all the latest.
But first, back here in Washington, President Biden faces a big decision in his final 43 days in office. Should he pardon lawmakers and civil servants who might face retribution from incoming Trump administration officials.
One top ally, Democratic Congressman Jim Clyburn says yes. But many in his own party, including some who have faced those threats like Senator-Elect Adam Schiff have said no thanks. Rejecting the unprecedented use of the president's clemency powers and fearful about the optics when no specific crimes have been alleged. My panel is back.
Mario, you covered the White House. Our reporting is that some of the top aides are having these discussions about these preemptive pardons. What are you hearing about the likelihood of that?
PARKER: Well, they're saying -- I mean, you heard Karine Jean-Pierre on Friday say that there are -- that more pardons are likely right. They're coming down the pike.
[11:45:03]
PARKER: How the scope or how many or how sweeping they will be is still up for grabs.
There is this debate, right, as to whether or not Democrats should cede this moral high ground, and what lessons they've learned from the election doing things the right way especially in the politics of Trump right now, right.
So that was Clyburn's suggestion to Biden.
And the other part is that you've got Democrats still urging Biden to do so because they're saying, hey, we feel pretty good about our moral standing. Looking ahead to the next four years and the likelihood of who Trump pardons -- January 6th supporters, et cetera.
RAJU: Do you think that Trump is going to -- his team is actually going to go after these critics of his, like he said on the campaign trail that he would?
HOLMES: Honestly, I don't think we know right now what that's going to look like. I don't think it's the top of their agenda to go after some of these people.
But I mean, the things that he can do, he will do. Like, do I think he's going to fire Jack Smith immediately? Yes, of course. Do I think he's going to do sweeping fires and, you know, go after bureaucrats in the government that he thinks possibly held up his agenda the first time around? Yes, I do think so.
Do I think that he's going to seek active retribution? I just don't know at this point. One thing I'll say about the pardons is that Donald Trump is going to do what Donald Trump wants to do.
So this argument overall, that this is setting some kind of precedent -- that I think should be taken into consideration --
RAJU: He'll still do it.
HOLMES: Right. He'll still do it.
(CROSSTALK)
RAJU: The question, too, is that if he does it, it could overshadow, of course, parts of Biden's legacy, which of course, he's very mindful of. Just on your screen, things that they want to be talking about. All of his -- the achievements, the bills that they passed over the last -- first two years of his presidency. This could overshadow some of that.
NICHOLS: Yes, it's the -- it's the sort of moral imperative argument that we're all -- and that's why I think Democrats are so -- and they say this both publicly and privately why they're so upset about this, because they wanted to be sure to have the moral authority to criticize Trump on any pardons that they expect him to make. And they've lost it with the -- with the Hunter Biden pardon.
I think one thing we can be certain about just not even -- whether or not they're preemptive or not or retrospective pardons, Joe Biden is going to do a lot more pardons. His numbers are historically low. The pardons always spike at the last 2 or 3 months of a -- of a president's final term in office.
So we can expect more. Whether or not they're sort of standard pardons, whether they're political favors or political wrongs. But there're going to be more and this is going to be a big -- a big topic of conversation.
RAJU: You know, meantime, this comes as Democrats are trying to figure out what their best strategy is now that Trump, of course, will be president again. They're in the minority.
Do they do what they did last time? Act essentially as the resistance of sorts, try to battle everything that Donald Trump did. Or do they pick and choose their battles?
I caught up with Senator John Fetterman, who is advocating very much the latter approach.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): If you really, really want to freak out, that's your prerogative. But you're going to have plenty of time to do those things. But me -- for me personally, I'm going to be picking my battles.
RAJU: Do you think that voters don't want to hear Democrats complain about everything Trump is doing?
FETTERMAN: Well, I mean, sure, sometimes we want to push back against core values or other things, but if everything's a freak out, then people can just tune you out.
So at some point, if you don't just pick your spots, then no one's going to just pay attention at that point.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RAJU: Now, he also told me that on the nominees themselves, he's kind of doing the same thing. But the question is how long does that last? And will all the Democrats follow suit with that strategy?
DAVIS: Well yes, I mean, it's a real debate because obviously there is a lot of very sincere panic and feeling that they should push back as strongly as possible because the Republicans control the entire Congress and President -- or President-Elect Trump is coming into the White House.
So there is a feeling among some Democrats that they just need to go all out. But what you've seen on the nominees in particular from Chuck Schumer, for instance, has been interesting.
He's been, you know, pretty quiet on some of these people because he sees that there are divisions among Republicans and it's more effective, he thinks, for, you know people to see that all play out before Democrats jump in and say, he's bad, she's bad, he's bad, she's bad.
RAJU: Yes.
DAVIS: But --
RAJU: But that's much different than last time --
DAVIS: Much different than last time. But they're not in control yet. Or the Congress is not here yet. So when those confirmation battles start to really play out that's going to probably have to end.
RAJU: Things very much will change. All right. Great discussion.
We'll have more on the breaking news out of Syria this morning.
Plus 170 million Americans who use TikTok, well -- could that number be zero in a matter of weeks? What to watch next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[11:54:01]
RAJU: Here's a story that might not end up going viral. TikTok users in the United States may have only six weeks to keep enjoying the popular app.
The social sensation is now officially one step closer to being permanently banned after a U.S. appeals court upheld a bipartisan law that could block the app by January 19th.
Now, with over 170 million users, and that's half of the U.S. population, influencers have been quick to react to the ruling, many with outrage.
For many creators and small businesses. TikTok has become more than just a video-sharing app. It has become a global hub to build brands, connect with audiences and earn a living. But lawmakers voiced national security concerns that the Chinese parent company Bytedance could exploit Americans' private information and the law that passed in April with wide bipartisan support called on Bytedance to sell the app or risk seeing it banned.
Now, the measure was tied to a larger foreign aid package that passed the GOP-led House 360 to 58 and a Democratic-led Senate 79 to 18. And Joe Biden signed it into law.
[11:55:07]
So now the question is, will Donald Trump enforce it? Trump tried to ban TikTok during his first term, but now he's promising to save it. His options to do that, however, are limited. He could direct his Justice Department to simply ignore the law, or he could determine that the law does not actually apply to TikTok.
TikTok, for its part is vowing to appeal to the Supreme Court saying the current ruling, quote, "will silence the voices of over 170 million Americans here in the U.S. and around the world".
Now, if the Chinese parent company opts not to sell the app, it could be 42 days before it goes away in the United States.
That's it for INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. You can follow me on X @mkraju. You can follow the show @INSIDEPOLITICS and follow me on Instagram @manu_raju.
If you ever miss an episode, catch up wherever you get your podcasts. Just search for INSIDE POLITICS.
Up next, "STATE OF THE UNION WITH JAKE TAPPER AND DANA BASH." Jake talks with former Defense secretary Mark Esper, Republican Senator Markwayne Mullin, and the number two Senate Democrat Dick Durbin.
Thanks again for sharing your Sunday morning with us. We'll see you next time.
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