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Trump Named Time's "Person Of The Year" For Second Time; Trump Previews His Presidency In Time Magazine Interview; Trump: "We're Going To Have A Big Discussion" About Vaccines; Trump Attacks Project 2025 Authors For Their Tactics; Soon: Hegseth To Meet With Democratic Sen. John Fetterman; Trump Defends Gabbard: She's "A Great American". Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired December 12, 2024 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Today on Inside Politics, Person of the Year. Donald Trump is getting the recognition he craves, while revealing crucial details about what America's health programs, justice system and foreign policy will look like when he takes the oath of office just 39 days from now.

Plus, a Democrat with an open mind, Senator John Fetterman says, his party can't quote, freak out about everything Trump does. Today, he'll sit down with the president-elect's controversial choice to lead the Pentagon, the first Democrat to meet with any of Trump's cabinet picks.

And bowing out. I'll talk to a top Democrat about the FBI director's decision to step aside, so Donald Trump can dramatically reshape the bureau in his image.

I'm Dana Bash. Let's go behind the headlines at Inside Politics.

First up, a New York moment. You see Donald Trump getting to ring the bell of the New York Stock Exchange, after being recognized by Time Magazine as its Person of the Year.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND CURRENT PRESIDENTIAL- ELECT: I have to say Time Magazine getting this honor for the second time. I think I like it better this time, actually.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Along with the cover, that's been a Trump obsession for years. The president-elect sat down for one of the only wide-ranging interviews he's given since election day. CNN's Kristen Holmes is in West Palm Beach. Kristen, you covered a lot of ground in this interview. KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Dana. And just to reiterate something, you said, he's finally getting the recognition that he feels that he deserves, and this for him, was a very big deal, getting to sit down and do this and be Person of the Year. One of the things my colleague Steve Contorno and I reported was how he's really been fixated on this title of Time Person of the Year for years, often criticizing the people that time chooses.

But let's get to the interview. So, there's a lot of ground covered here. One of the things that we heard him say was that he vehemently opposed Biden's new missile policy in Ukraine, essentially providing Ukraine with missiles so that they could strike in Russia.

He also said something we've heard before. But again, reiterating it now that he is in -- he's going to be president of the United States, saying that he would use military to help with mask deportations.

The other thing I want to point out is he said that he would study that the link between vaccines and autism diagnoses, even though, of course, as we have reported multiple times. There is no link that has been found in multiple studies.

But there's one thing I want to point out, and that was what he talked about when it comes to January 6, because we've really been trying to figure out what these pardons are going to look like. And here's what he said about pardoning individuals involved.

He said, we're going to look at each individual case, and we're going to do it very quickly, and it's going to start the first hour that I get into office. And a vast majority of them should not be in jail. I'll be looking at J6 early on, maybe the first nine minutes.

We are still trying to get an idea of what exactly this looks like, in terms of how he's going to do these pardons. We've heard him. We've heard a spokesperson, Karoline Leavitt, say that it's going to be a case-by-case basis. But we've also heard a lot of Donald Trump's allies outside, who advise him, who talk to him on a daily or weekly basis, saying they believe it should be blanket pardons.

And as of now, we still don't have the insight into how this is going to work, particularly on day one. But one thing to make clear, Donald Trump made a lot of promises on the campaign trail. And this was one of the very significant promises he made to these people who are in jail, to their families. So, one of the reasons why we're so invested in trying to figure out how he's going to do this is because it was something he focused so heavily on during the campaign,

BASH: Not to mention how controversial it is the notion of him pardoning people who were convicted of storming the United States Capitol and trying to stop the basic structure and work of democracy. Kristen, thank you so much for that reporting.

Joining me now is another terrific group of reporters, CNN's Gloria Borger, Vivian Salama of The Wall Street Journal, and CNN's Priscilla Alvarez. Hello. I just -- as Kristen was talking, I was sort of motioning to Gloria, because my -- correct me if I'm wrong, but my memory is when you did one of your hours on Donald Trump.

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I mean, one of the things that I learned from you is how incredibly fixated --

GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Obsessed.

BASH: -- he has been about Time Magazine, and even puts -- he puts the covers in his golf clubs.

BORGER: Right? Well, fake covers.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: OK. This is a real one. And it all goes back to the seeking recognition that he grew up with, being at the New York Stock Exchange is definitely up there for him. No question about it. So, before we get into sort of the nitty gritty, talk about it as a moment.

BORGER: Well, I think this is a moment where he feels complete vindication. You know, he -- this is somebody who believes that he's been wronged by institutions in this country. And Time Magazine, he considers, as you were just saying, to be an institution in this country. And he has been honored by them and honored by the New York Stock Exchange.

You know how much he talks about the stock market and looking at the stock market, and if it's up, it's because he's done it, et cetera, et cetera. And look at the array of people who were there with him today, Melania, who never shows up. Ivanka was there. His vice president was there. So, I mean, this is something where he said to everyone, I think I want you there because it's important to me.

BASH: Yeah. And also, RFK Jr.

BORGER: Oh, yeah.

BASH: Which brings us to some of the really interesting news that he made in this wide-ranging interview. Let's start with what he said about RFK Jr. and the vaccine denial that RFK Jr. has been talking about and peddling things that are not true. He said where - he, Trump said, we're going to have a big discussion. The autism rate is at a level that nobody ever believed possible. If you look at things that are happening, there's something causing it.

Question, do you think it's linked to vaccines? No, I'm going to be listening to Bobby, who I've gotten along with great, and I have a lot of respect for having to do with food and having to do with vaccines.

I just want to say for the record, which we're going to have to continue saying over and over again, there is no evidence. Despite lengthy, longitudinal, widespread studies, trying to figure out if there is a link from vaccines to autism. The answer is, resoundingly scientifically, no. Now that doesn't mean that he's not going to listen to Bobby on that. So, I'm wondering your view, given how much you've covered Donald Trump? And you know, I mean, this might not necessarily comport with how he thinks about things when I say, he I mean Kennedy.

VIVIAN SALAMA, NATIONAL POLITICAL REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: Or Trump, for that matter. I mean, you know, skepticism has played well with his base since the beginning, while Trump was in office. Remember, it's during Donald Trump's presidency that the vaccine rollout actually began.

So, this is all very ironic, for sure, but this is something that RFK Jr. has been in Trump's ear and has obviously made an impact in a number of ways. And we've seen him sort of change his rhetoric on a number of issues and just this broader theme of making America healthy again and incorporating some of Bobby Kennedy Jr.'s views, some of them very controversial in this case, like the vaccine issue.

And so, Trump still tries to toe that line. He himself was vaccinated.

BASH: We're not just talking about COVID vaccines.

SALAMA: We're talking about, yes --

BASH: We're talking about fundamental diseases that have been in place for decades and decades.

SALAMA: Absolutely, absolutely. But COVID was one of those that has made Bobby Kennedy sort of stand out in the crowd, especially during this time where even Trump himself had taken the vaccine, had overseen a roll out. He talks about some of the those more broadly.

And so, Trump is definitely trying to play to the base politically, but -- and also, you know, to Bobby Kennedy, who has made the impact, but also at the same time, keep it open for the fact that he might eventually endorse these vaccines. You know, we don't know yet how he's going to -- how he's going to proceed, but he likes to toe that line.

BASH: Yeah. And the other issues that RFK Jr. pushes have, you know, there are a lot of people, Democrats, Republicans, across the spectrum of each party, who say, you know what, we should look at the food system. We should look at processed food, and the way that that kind of has changed the way that we all live and our health.

Switch you to another topic, and that is immigration. Was asked about using the military for mass deportations. Well, it doesn't -- it doesn't stop the military if it's an invasion of our country, and I consider it an invasion of our country, I'll only do what the law allows, but I will go up to the maximum level of what the law allows.

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PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: And I think there's a big question as to what the maximum level is, of course, beyond the law. Having covered this issue, there is often deep frustration and tension between the Department of Homeland Security and Department of Defense, regardless of who is at the top.

So that adds a wrinkle into any plans that are being concocted to use the military. But he's also still in this interview, as you read it, coming to realization of what these plans are going to entail. For example, he gets asked, well, what if these countries don't take back those who are repatriated, which is a very real thing.

BASH: Yeah.

ALVAREZ: Currently, Venezuela is not taking back repatriations. And he says, well, what we do the tariffs? And we won't do business with those countries. Well, he did that the first time around. It was a scatter shot.

I have been told by sources that this is something that they are strategizing, and they are well aware of coming into this second term. But it's not easy and there's no easy solution to that, and so that adds wrinkle. He also, interestingly says that he doesn't really want to work with Congress on this.

Now, remember, this interview was done in late November, and recently he said he would work with Democrats and Republicans on Dreamers. So that part of it still leaves an open question as to, what of this will he try to accomplish with Congress? And what is going to just be purely executive order?

BASH: Yeah. And he was asked about detention centers for undocumented immigrants that they're deporting. And he basically said, well, we don't need them because we're going to send them back to the country, which is --

ALVAREZ: I just want to say one thing on that. I have also read the earnings calls for the private detention facilities, and they are very much anticipating that they will --

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: Well, it's a policy that's in formation now, right? I mean, it doesn't seem to me that there is any policy yet.

BASH: There are promises.

BORGER: There are promises, I'm going to do this. But it doesn't seem to me like from reading that interview, that that Donald Trump has any firm answers to those questions.

BASH: He might not, but you can bet Stephen Miller is already working on it.

(CROSSTALK)

SALAMA: And the controversial policies, they are logistically very hard to carry out as well, and that especially when they say on day one.

BASH: I just want to get to one other topic, which is Project 2025. This was fascinating to me. He really slammed the people who put it out. Ironically, one of the main authors is Russ Vought, who he made OMB director. Who he, Trump made OMB director.

Here's what Trump says. It's totally inappropriate. They come up with an 800-page document, and the enemy, which, you know, the other party, put a pin in that, is allowed to go through and pick out two items -- 12 items of, you know, 800. It's a very foolish thing for them to do. So, he's upset about the tactics. He claims he didn't read it all, which tracks. I'm sure he didn't read the whole thing. But he also said that some things he would do, some things he would avoid doing.

SALAMA: He even said some of their policies are conservative and good. And that's something that he really stayed away from saying, on the campaign trail, largely because Democrats hammered him about his affiliation with Project 2025, with some of the individuals behind 2025 -- because of some of the more controversial policies, namely abortion and others.

And so, he really tried to distance himself because the campaign felt like it was going to hurt his prospects. Campaign is over, he won the election.

ALVAREZ: The frustration in that interview that comes through is when they rolled it out. Yes, he says that there are some things he doesn't agree with. But it's the fact that they did it at the time, they did it during the campaign, that he seems mostly --

BASH: But the key is that there are so many -- not just controversial, but just like there's some things that maybe make sense if you're traditional Republican, so many things that are just so wildly sort of anathema to people who understand the way government works, and we don't know which ones he is for and which ones he --

BORGER: Well, we're not, and we're not going to know. I think that it's so Donald Trump to say, why would you put that in writing because Donald Trump doesn't put anything in writing. And for him to say, you know, why would they put that out there. During the campaign, doesn't make any sense to me. I don't care what's in it.

BASH: Right. We're going to have to take a break the other very Donald Trump thing, he was asked about whether he trusts Netanyahu. He said, I don't trust anybody thought that was very telling. Coming up, just doing my job. That's how John Fetterman is explaining his decision to become the first Democrat to sit down with Trump cabinet pick. Will anyone in his party follow? That's next.

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BASH: About an hour from now, Senator John Fetterman will be the first Senate Democrat to sit down with Pete Hegseth, Donald Trump's embattled choice for defense secretary. CNN's Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill. And you just talked to John Fetterman. What did he say? MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. This is the first time a Senate Democrat has sat down with Trump's defense pick. This is the way the Trump team has been handling some of the more controversial picks. It's been a little bit unusual. Typically, it would be a meeting with members of both parties, but this time, they've been zero exclusively on Republican senators, trying to get Republican senators in line.

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And now, they've decided to branch out, meeting with John Fetterman, who indicated to me that he is open to this conversation. Wouldn't rule out voting for Pete Hegseth. But did say that he plans to talk to him about those controversial allegations of misconduct, which Hegseth denies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Are you open to supporting him?

SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): What I'm open to having a conversation, that's where I'm at. A lot still has to happen before all of that place where -- again, the FBI vetting and the hearing and all these things. Donald Trump carry Pennsylvania, and he's going to be the next president. So, it's all part of the conversation.

And that's why I have decided to engage with people that are going to be incredibly important parts of the new administration, and those individuals can, you know, vent or rant on Twitter. But I'm here to have conversations, and I think I'm just doing my job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And that last point, Dana, speaks to an actual debate that's going on within the Democratic Party about how to position themselves in the Trump era, whether or not to be more of a resistance, battle the Trump nominees. Donald Trump's positions to the nail the way that they did in the first Trump term.

You know, Fetterman there. He's repeatedly said, don't freak out. Pick and choose your battles on the nominees. He said he's going to reserve judgment on all of them, even some of the more controversial ones, like Pete Hegseth. And that's just a debate that's going to continue to play out as Democrats had to position themselves in the Trump era.

But he did say to me that he does plan to ask him about all those controversial allegations from the past. I said, do you believe the denials that Pete Hegseth, that he indicated, well, there's going to be an FBI reporting, time to vet that. So, at the moment, we'll watch his language coming out of this meeting and whether a Democratic vote is actually getable right now. As Trump's team is confident Hegseth's chances, despite all the controversy that has emerged. Dana?

BASH: So, fascinating. Thank you so much, Manu. And back here at the table, the way that John Fetterman, approaches politics. He's not only doing it because he believes it's right for him and for the way he represents Pennsylvania. He's trying to show Democrats a way to deal with the world -- in the world that Trump basically runs, right?

I mean, he the last thing he did before the election. He was not on the ballot, but before election day as he went on Joe Rogan, and he talked to him for a very long time. Now he's on Truth Social and wrote the following. My first truth. The Trump hush money and Hunter Biden cases where both BS and pardons are appropriate, weaponizing the judiciary for blatant partisan gain diminishes the collective faith in our institution and SOS further division.

BORGER: Well, the most interesting thing he said to Manu, to me, is that Donald Trump won Pennsylvania, and so he a senator from Pennsylvania. And so, he joined truth Social. He spoke his mind about that case, which by the way, a lot of Democrats privately share that opinion, but haven't said it publicly.

And I think what he's doing is he's zero basing everything. He's saying, you know, I'm going to come at this as a neutral party, because this guy won. He won the popular vote. And I've got to give it a -- I've got to give it a shot, and I'll disagree where I disagree. He didn't commit to supporting Hegseth. He just committed to listening to him.

BASH: There are a lot of people in the Department of Justice, main justice and around the country who see that a Democrat like John Fetterman uses the language of Donald Trump, weaponizing the judiciary. Joe Biden use that language when he pardon Hunter Biden. And they are not happy.

SALAMA: It's not just the Department of Justice, it's across government. At this point, there's a lot of people really nervous that both parties will feed into this growing distrust that you see all over the country. I mean, going to rallies with Trump over the past year, I would constantly hear people talking about their distrust of government, of the media, and this feeds into it.

And now, with both parties, sort of -- even if it's just, you know, a few individuals on the Democratic side, it still feeds that that distrust. And when we do not trust government, it creates enormous problems moving forward.

BASH: I want to turn to another nominee talked about Hegseth, and that is Tulsi Gabbard, a nominee to run a DNI, the Department of National Intelligence. The Time Magazine interviewer asked Donald Trump about reports that foreign governments wouldn't want to share their intelligence with her because they don't trust her.

He responded. I think she's a great American. I think she's a person with tremendous common sense. I've watched her for years, and she has nothing to do with Russia. This is another, you know, a mini Russia, Russia, Russia scam. I think probably, if that's what's happening, I don't see it. Certainly, if something can be shown to me.

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ALVAREZ: And right before that, he talked about putting out some controversial picks. But when he was asked specifically about Tulsi, he completely stood by her. And these are the types of questions that senators are asking behind closed doors. And despite all of the disruption and change in Washington, we're seeing this confirmation process so far play out the way that it usually does.

These are meetings that are important with Democrats and Republicans, as Fetterman is also trying to underscore. And these are the questions she's going to have to answer to have the vote of confidence for them to vote for her. So certainly, regardless of what Donald Trump has seen, there are those in Washington who have their own questions. And she's going to have to answer to them, whether or not she can as I hope another matter.

BORGER: Trump in that interview, almost acted surprised that there were any questions about her relationship with Assad or with Vladimir Putin. He sort, of said, really, I haven't -- you know, I'm not -- he wasn't aware of it, which sort of shocked me, because of course, that's the wrap on her.

And that's what Democrats and Republicans are talking about that they don't share her foreign policy views. And so, it was sort of interesting to me. I think the implication was, Jill (Ph) maybe I thought Kash Patel would be difficult, but not Tulsi Gabbard.

SALAMA: I mean, the interview was done on November 25, if I'm not mistaken, and since then, Assad has been deposed. You just mentioned him. There is enormous concern across the intel community here in Washington that she might try to help this deposed leader, a leak to him in some way.

I have heard this myself from directly from intel officials, where they're worried that she could somehow assist them and --

BASH: Foreign diplomats as well?

SALAMA: And from her foreign diplomats as well. There's a lot of concern just given her record. And so, this is something that certainly, you know, is being talked about. She's going in an enormously critical position in the head to lead the intel community and something heavy on their minds.

BASH: All right, everybody standby. Coming up. Joe Biden is giving nearly 1500 people the gift of a second chance. We have the details of its historic pardon announcement, next.

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