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Inside Politics

Trump Basks In Personal Victories Amid Cabinet Battles; New: VP Harris Debates Next Steps After Election Loss. Democrats Set to Pick New Party Chair on February 1; Interview with DNC Chair Candidate Ken Martin; GOP Senators Face Pressure Campaign to Confirm Trump Picks; Johnson Halts Kids Online Safety Act Over Free Speech Fears. Aired 8- 9a ET

Aired December 15, 2024 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

CHAD MYERS, AMS METEOROLOGIST: -- some hope, some at least increased accuracy hope that we could see things get better with artificial intelligence and the human element here.

[08:00:09]

Obviously, with the National Weather Service working in tandem, keeping everything together, making it better for us and keeping us even safer with the weather.

AMARA WALKER, CNN ANCHOR: Chad Myers, thank you for that.

And thank you for being with us, you, Omar, and, of course, to our viewers. But it was great to be with you, Omar.

OMAR JIMENEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Always great to be with you, Amara. Great to be with all of you this morning.

INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY WITH MANU RAJU, up next.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(MUSIC)

MANU RAJU, CNN HOST (voice-over): Honeymoon phase. Donald Trump taking a victory lap.

But with controversial cabinet picks and a messy pressure campaign --

Is it effective?

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME): No.

RAJU: How long will it last?

Plus, uncertain path. Democrats look to find their footing in Trump's Washington -- fight tooth and nail.

SEN. ELIZABETH WILLIAMS (D-MA): I think you fight and the things we should fight.

RAJU: Or cut deals?

SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): Democrats or other people can freak out over anyone that was nominated. I am not that guy.

RAJU: Who will lead them back to power.

We'll have new reporting about Kamala Harris's plans, and I'll talk to a candidate who wants to run the DNC.

And a house divided. A GOP split over a bill protecting kids on social media. Speaker Johnson saying no.

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I commend all my colleagues, but we want to get it right.

RAJU: As Elon musk and Senate allies rally for it.

SEN. MARSHA BLACKBURN (R-TN): This needs to be done.

RAJU: Who holds the power in Trump's GOP?

INSIDE POLITICS, the best reporting from inside the corridors of power, starts now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RAJU (on camera): Good morning. Welcome to INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. I'm Manu Raju.

With 36 days until he takes the oath of office, Donald Trump spent part of the weekend with the top Republican leaders in Congress and making a public show of support for one of his most embattled cabinet picks, Pete Hegseth.

Yesterday, Trump took in the annual Army-Navy football game with Hegseth, along with Speaker Mike Johnson and the incoming Senate majority leader, John Thune. The goal for Trump is simple: try to ride out this honeymoon period as long as possible. And judging by his social media, it's clear he knows a swell of good luck he's enjoying.

But even with single party rules soon coming to Washington, it will undoubtedly be rocky. The only question is when.

And Trump, for his part, continued this weekend to select his most loyal allies to serve in roles in his administration. Yesterday, selecting a controversial former congressman, Devin Nunes, to serve as an intelligence advisor and appointing his former acting director of national intelligence, Ric Grenell, to a presidential envoy position. It's all part of this breakneck pace of Trump's transition.

And as he rang the bell at the New York stock exchange late last week, he said he's learned something from the last time he was in office.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT-ELECT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think I like it better this time, actually, because. But we did a good job. We had a great first term despite a lot of turmoil caused unnecessarily. I said, you know, I've never done this before. I didn't know anybody. I got to the oval office and I'm picking all these big positions, and I didn't really know the people in Washington, but boy, did I get to learn fast.

And now we do. And I think we have an incredible staff behind me and others that aren't here. And we're going to do a fantastic job. This is a great honor and ringing the bell will be fantastic and go out and get them. We're with you all the way. Thank you very much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: All right. We have an amazing panel to break this all down with us this morning. CNN's Isaac Dovere, Vivian Salama with "The Wall Street Journal" and CNN's Stephen Collinson, and NPR's Deirdre Walsh.

Good morning to you guys. Nice to see you all.

All right, so let's talk about the optics of yesterday. This was Pete Hegseth just a couple of weeks ago. It looked like he was. Could have been Trump could have pulled the plug. He could have walked away amid all these controversies that have come out about his alleged misconduct. He's denied all those allegations, of course.

But still, the question is, did he have the votes and did Trump want to go through it? He clearly wants to go through it. And yesterday, he was there and they made clear that he was with him watching this Army- Navy football game together.

VIVIAN SALMA, NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: Yeah. He was -- he was by Trump's side. And obviously Trump and also Vice President-elect Vance have gone all in with him. And they see that they probably could get him through if there is a continued pressure campaign among -- with Republicans in particular, who have raised their concern, because obviously it will boil down to Republican votes. At the end of the day, they will hold the majority.

And so, a number of a number of efforts -- a number of meetings over the past week trying to woo some of those Republicans, like Joni Ernst and others who have been on the fence about Pete Hegseth worried about these allegations of sexual misconduct, drunken behavior, misspending in some cases, and really pushing back on that.

[08:05:04]

They've held meetings with him and he's basically gone on this charm offensive to earn their trust.

And a number of them have come out even after expressing some skepticism, to say, okay, we're going to hear him out. We'll give him the fair process and see how this goes.

RAJU: Yeah, and we'll see how the confirmation hearings go as well. But there were also other messages they were trying to send yesterday.

There was J.D. Vance alongside Daniel Penny. Of course, he is a man who was found not guilty of criminal negligent homicide in the death of a homeless man, Jordan Neely in a New York City subway. This is, of course, prompted a debate about crime, about race in this country.

But there was J.D. Vance alongside Daniel Penny, that what message do you think they were trying to send? What's your takeaway from that?

STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: I think it tells us something about the values of the incoming administration. Daniel Penny became a bit of a folk hero on the right on conservative media throughout the trial. This whole trial was bound up in the politics of Trump. First of all, this argument that Americas liberal cities are overrun by crime and second, the case was overseen by Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan district attorney, who also oversaw Trump's hush money conviction.

So there's a lot of politics bound up in this. I think what we saw yesterday was a show of presidential power, because he's the president elect, has revived the Hegseth nomination, along with some help from, as you were saying, the conservative media friends. But this is a demonstration of the administration Trump wants. He wants these very provocative nominees. And were going to see that this week when Robert F. Kennedy goes up to the Hill.

RAJU: Yeah, we'll talk about that in a second, but just a show of power.

DEIRDRE WALSH, NPR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Exactly.

RAJU: I mean, there's -- Joe Manchin. Yes, he's retiring, but he was also in the box yesterday watching the game with Donald Trump. But there were others whose votes, folks, a set of folks there was the -- CQ Brown was up there. He is the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman. There was also Wes Moore, the governor of Maryland. He was shaking hands with Trump during the game.

A show of power, as Stephen said.

WALSH: Exactly. But you also saw a show of unity with Republican leaders. You had a lot of pictures -- photo opportunities with the speaker of the house, President-elect Trump, and the incoming majority leader, John Thune. Those three have not really worked together. There was a different set of leaders. The last time he was in the White House, and they're, you know, showing, smiling, sitting together.

But behind the scenes, there are some divisions in terms of strategy about how to move forward. They want to do the same things, right, border security, address inflation, cut taxes, renew Trump's tax cuts. But there are differences of opinions about how to move forward. I imagine that probably came up at the game.

I'm sure the speaker is happy. His son is a midshipman and they won the game yesterday. But I do think there was a lot of, you know, soft lobbying going on in that box last night. RAJU: No question about it. Let's just take a step back about to see how the transition is going overall. Overall, the American public, they do view things as going favorably. They tend to give grace to the new incoming administration after what's usually a pretty bitter and vicious campaign.

Trump has about 55 percent approval rating. Look, its about positive numbers for most other presidents there other than Donald Trump in 2017, as 40 percent, he took a much different tack back then. He was campaigning a lot, doing rallies and the like. Obviously, the public doesn't prefer that, 55 percent now looking favorably.

But now what's been interesting is the people that he selected through this administration, we talked about the loyalty test that has been very clear. Then Trump loyal allies have been all throughout the cabinet and different administration posts, but also big donors as well.

Our colleagues at CNN reporting about this just yesterday, about securing big roles in the administration and just a staggering amount of money that some of these people have given towards Trump or Trump's super and allied outside groups. The Elon Musk, of course, at the top of the list in this new government efficiency advisory role, $262 million, but all the way down, even Linda McMahon winning 20 -- donating $21 million and winning the post to be the secretary of education. And they're not alone. There are many others, according to this reporting.

People may say, well, this is the way Washington works, but this is more than we've seen before.

ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: This is more and even the way you said it, all the way down to Linda McMahon's only $20 million.

RAJU: Yeah, right.

(LAUGHTER)

RAJU: Right. And Scott Bessent, who's the treasury secretary, $1.5 million.

DOVERE: Right. And look, for Elon Musk, this money has been well spent that he put into the campaign. You look at how his net worth has increased by billions and billions almost by the week since the election. The overall what were seeing with these cabinet picks is I think we often use the word loyalty to talk about Trump.

It is for what he expects. More is obedience. He is not loyal to other people. He expects them to be loyal to him, and he is expecting the Republican Party to be loyal to him.

[08:10:01]

These majorities in the House and Senate, it will be tougher in the House. It's a tight majority, but that's not the way that Trump seems to be thinking about this. Of course, on the Senate confirmations, he only needs 51 Republican votes. He's got 53 Republican senators.

This is, I think importantly, a test of how things might go next year when it comes to the legislating. Other people have heard compared this to the velociraptors in the first Jurassic Park movie, testing the electric fence, right? Can Donald Trump get Pete Hegseth who -- leave aside his personal issues, the drinking, and the womanizing that has been raised -- just his experience coming in to run the Pentagon is a lot less than anybody else who has ever held that position, things like that, if he can get that guy confirmed as defense secretary, that says a lot for what he can get done, especially when were talking about things like reconciliation. Throw a lot of things through.

RAJU: No, no question about it. But this is also a big question for him. What will happen to RFK, Jr.? He comes to the Hill this coming week. There's been all sorts of controversy as of late, particularly in the aftermath of a report from "The New York Times" on Friday.

An RFK advisor who's helping him staff up HHS apparently petitioned the government to revoke the polio vaccine, even though the vaccine has been credited for essentially eradicating polio around the world.

Mitch McConnell, who is a polio -- childhood polio survivor, of course, the Republican leader. Still, he's outgoing Republican leader, but he still has a vote in the United States Senate, still as influential in the Senate GOP conference, put out a statement in the aftermath of that report, going on to say that anyone seeking to -- seeking the Senate's consent to serve in the incoming administration would do well to steer clear of even the appearance of association with such efforts. He called efforts to eradicate -- undermine public confidence, not just uninformed. He called them dangerous. That's a problem.

WALSH: Not so subtle message, right? Yeah. I mean, and McConnell has been one to show that he has some independence. I mean, he's clearly not aligned or obedient to President-elect Trump, hasn't been in the past.

Also, you look at some of the other Republicans that will have major roles in the nomination of RFK, Jr., and you look at someone like Bill Cassidy, the incoming chair of that committee, he's a doctor, and he's up for reelection.

So he has --

DOVERE: With a primary challenge already, right?

WALSH: Exactly. So there's already a ton of pressure on him, but he's shown his willingness to break. I mean, he voted for impeaching Trump at one point or convicting Trump.

RAJU: Yeah.

WALSH: So I think that when it comes to something like a polio vaccine, I think that there are some issues where both Republicans and some Democrats align with RFK in terms of, you know, reforming agricultural issues and cutting out processed issues and chemicals for children. But when it comes to vaccines, I think that's a completely different road to go down.

RAJU: Yeah, just a reminder of things that RFK Jr. has said about vaccines and about talking about the -- with the false notion that this is linked -- vaccines are linked to childhood autism.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., TRUMP'S CHOICE FOR HEALTH SECRETARY: I do believe that autism does come from vaccines.

There's no vaccine that is, you know, safe and effective.

I see somebody on a hiking trail with a carrying a little baby, and I say to him, better not get them vaccinated. And he heard that from me. If he hears it from ten other people, maybe he won't do it, you know. Maybe -- maybe he will save that child again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Again, there's no scientific evidence to back up that point. But Trump seems to be okay with that.

SALAMA: I don't know if okay is the right word. He is accepting it as just sort of part of RFK's shtick at this point. He -- he himself, obviously, when it comes to certain vaccines, certainly the COVID vaccine, which RFK has raised concern about, Trump himself is vaccinated and actually rolled out the big vaccine campaign during his administration.

But with other things, he just says, let's kind of keep an open mind and explore these things. And I think, you know, he's trying to appease the base largely where the base has accepted the skepticism towards vaccines in general. And also appease his incoming, potentially incoming HHS secretary.

But at the end of the day, you know, whether or not he himself truly believes that, you know, he has not given -- he has not hinted at that in the past. So it's hard to really embrace that in that way.

RAJU: Exactly. As he said in this time magazine article that came out this past week, he said, I'm going to be listening to Bobby, when he asked whether or not this is linked to autism. So, you know, we'll see.

DOVERE: Bobby is not a doctor.

RAJU: Yes, Bobby. Correct. This is in fact, this is true.

All right. Still ahead for us, brand new CNN reporting on Vice President Kamala Harris and her debate over what she should do next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:19:19] RAJU: We haven't seen or heard much from Vice President Kamala Harris since she lost the election last month.

But as the Democratic Party still reels from Trump's victory, conversations are already happening about her next move.

Our Isaac Dovere has brand new reporting this morning that details how the vice president is debating her future, including talk among her allies of a potential run for governor that would take a 2028 White House run off the table.

And Isaac is back here at this table.

All right. So, Isaac, tell us what the likelihood is of Harris running for governor.

DOVERE: What she's been saying to people over the last couple of weeks, donors, other supporters that she's been talking with is you haven't seen the last of me. I'm not going quietly into the night.

Advisers, people close to her are debating about what that means.

[08:20:03]

They do not want her final official act ever to be essentially certifying Donald Trump's win over her, especially four years after January 6th. And so they look at this governors race in California in 2026, and it seems to them like a layup, essentially, that she would probably clear the field or mostly clear the field, and she would get to be governor of California, which is a pretty good job, right? It was good enough for Ronald Reagan and Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jerry Brown.

And -- but if she does that, that means that she couldn't turn around and run for president again in 2028, right? She needs to essentially declare right away.

And that is what it really comes down to because there are people close to her who say she didn't get a fair shot this -- this year. It wasn't -- it wasn't up to what she could have done. And look how well she performed. Anyway, she should get to go again in 2028.

And then there are ones who say, look with where things are with the Democratic Party. It -- she would not have a clear field, a cleared field. Rather in the Democratic primary and could lose the nomination and to come off of 2024 into that would be really terrible.

RAJU: No question. And would a second run even be harder for Harris? That's a question as well. You write this in your piece. You say potential candidates would not have the same deference if Harris runs again in 2028, even when putting much to the blame for her losing on Biden and economic factors out of her control.

They look at her poorer than expected showing among younger and black voters and see cause for major concern. I mean, but that's -- that's the point, right? There's -- she's -- even if she were to run, this is going to be a crowded effort to try to regain the Democratic mantle.

SALAMA: I mean, this was one area where Democrats felt they were a little bit blindsided going into election day, where Trump did extremely better with compared to 2016, with these demographics, Black voters, Hispanic voters, even women, where literally on election night everyone was thinking that women were going to turn out for Kamala Harris and that she might actually be get a bump and win the election. And that didn't happen because of the fact that they felt that the Democrats fell short in messaging on that.

And so this is one of the issues that Democrats are now kind of having this come to Jesus moment where they're doing a lot of soul searching, trying to understand it. Obviously, the economy played a big part in feeding into this, but there were other factors, too, and they're trying to figure out how they can really reach out to those groups.

RAJU: In the next Democratic leader is going to have to figure out how to also re-energize a depressed Democratic base.

Just look at the -- the poll that came out this past week from CNN. Things are going well in the country. That is the question among Democratic voters. It has dropped 22 percent since January, and probably a big reason why is the election.

COLLINSON: Ad that begs the question is, do Democratic voters want to turn back or are they going to look for something fresh? In many ways, they've been running something of the same election ever since 2008. Is it time to get some -- some more new personalities in the party?

My question would be, if she decides that she wants to run for president, how do you stay visible? Because you're going to have Democratic governors who also want to run for president, presumably. They're going to be the tip of the spear, at least until the midterm elections, in the resistance to Trump.

And you saw this week, for example, Governor Shapiro of Pennsylvania, Governor Moore of Maryland, they were responding to the killing of the CEO. In many ways, they were pretty politically dexterous, talking about health care and the problems in healthcare, but leaving themselves clear from any, you know, suggestion that they were condoning this murder.

But that was what you have to do. You have to be very politically dexterous. And sometimes, the vice president hasn't shown herself to be -- to have those kind of skills.

WALSH: The other issue I think Democrats are concerned about looking ahead is how do they appeal to the working class? And I think they're looking for a completely different type of candidate who can talk to voters that have supported Trump. And I'm not sure that some of them think that Harris can make that pivot after her loss this time around. They're looking at people who won in Trump districts and the kinds of messages that they delivered that identified with issues that people cared about.

You know, a lot of these Democrats in Trump districts have said, you know, a lot of their voters who split their ticket were worried that people at the top of the ticket were lecturing them and weren't talking about economic issues. And I think they're looking to those types of Democrats, more moderate Democrats who aren't feeling so much heat from the progressive wing of the party to say the right thing, but to actually sort of connect more.

SALAMA: And it's sort of healthy to rip up the old canvassing model and start fresh. I mean, I did a number of ground game stories with the Trump campaign. This in this cycle, and they were talking about 2012 and the big loss that they had 2000, 2008 and 2012 and the big losses they had and how they had to rip up their canvassing model and start fresh because it wasn't working for them. Obama had really just crushed both elections, and they needed to find a new way to reach out to voters.

Democrats are now going to have to go through this similar cycle.

[08:25:03]

DOVERE: Some of it comes down to whether there will be Trump buyers' remorse in the years ahead. And if there is, does it?

And I get into this in the story, does it go toward people thinking, oh, we could have had Kamala Harris? Or does it go to people thinking, well, Kamala Harris losing is the reason why Trump is there.

And that is -- she's going to have to make these decisions really quickly, right? And not have a chance to see how that plays out. She would have until the spring.

I mean, basically in California, some people said to me that it would be that she has to look at running for governor as a capstone, not a stepping stone. And another person said to me it would be a step down at this point.

RAJU: I want to talk about the tactical debate within the Democratic Party about how to deal with life in the minority, how to deal with people like Pete Hegseth, the pick for the defense secretary, and the debate over whether or not they should really battle tooth and nail or sit back and see what happens.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WARREN: All by itself, we should not be talking about confirming people who have credibly been accused of rape, who have outstanding nondisclosure agreements so that woman can't talk about it, who have led workplaces that have had significant problems and accusations of sexual harassment to lead one of the biggest departments in our government.

FETTERMAN: All I am saying is that Democrats or other people can freak out over anyone that was nominated, and I am not that guy.

(END VIDEO CLIIP)

RAJU: It's important to note that Hegseth has denied those sexual assault allegations, and of course, he was not charged in that 2017 incident. But the larger debate is fight or not, fight or -- fight or choose. Pick our battles that went to fight.

WALSH: I mean, I think for the last few weeks, you've seen them try to lay low and try to figure out that question, right? Let the Republicans who are going to decide this nomination, people like Joni Ernst, Susan Collins, sort of take the heat for a while.

But now, you're seeing definitely a split, right? You know, should we pick our battles? Should we go all in and publicly battle every single nominee? Or should we just, you know, sort of go along and focus on the ones with the most controversy?

You have seen some Democrats sort of immediately come out. Wisconsin Senator Tammy Baldwin met with Sean Duffy, the nominee for Department of Transportation, immediately endorsed him.

You know, I think for some people like that, for people like Marco Rubio, Elise Stefanik, former House member, these are known quantities on the Hill, people who have built some relationships, and they'll get some Democratic votes.

RAJU: Yeah.

All right. We'll just see. It's a big debate, well, with big implications.

All right. One thing Democrats do need to figure out as they plot their path forward, who's going to lead their party? My next guest thinks he's the best person for the job. I'll ask him what Democrats need to do if they want to win again. That's after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:32:13]

MANU RAJU, CNN HOST: The next chair of the Democrat National Committee will be faced with a daunting task figuring out why the party lost in November and how to rebuild the coalition that Donald Trump ripped apart.

The four men on your screen all think they're the best person to lead the party forward. DNC members will select their new chair on February 1st.

Joining me now is one of the candidates, Ken Martin. He's the DNC vice chair and Minnesota's Democratic Party chair.

Mr. Martin, thank you so much for joining me. Really appreciate it.

KEN MARTIN, DNC CHAIR CANDIDATE: Thanks for having me, Manu.

RAJU: Absolutely.

So you've been talking about the need for a rebranding effort in the Democratic Party. So what is alarming you right now about the Democratic brand?

MARTIN: Yes, I mean, there was some disturbing news this last spring, which really should have been the canary in the coal mine for all of us. A big red flag for Democrats that showed for the first time in modern history, the perceptions of the two political parties has actually changed.

Now, the majority of Americans believe that the Republicans best represent the interests of the working class and the poor, and Democrats are the party of the wealthy and the elite. That is a damning indictment on our brand and something we have to fix.

You know, the reality is, if you look at our policies our policies are very popular throughout the country. They're passing in wide measure through -- through up and down the ballot and ballot initiatives, minimum wage increases, paid family leave, abortion protections, you name it, they're passing.

Those same people are moving down ballot and voting for Trump and the Republicans. So clearly we have a branding issue. We have a messaging issue that we have to fix.

RAJU: And one of the things is the perceptions among some of the people in your coalition and how they're viewing Trump, some of them much more positive even right now. This is a recent CNN/SSRS poll coming out about how they view the expectation about whether Trump can change the U.S. For the better. Women now 46 percent, that was much different back in 2016. People of color view Trump more positively about how he may handle things going forward. And even younger voters.

And that has been -- that was consistent in what we saw these demographic trends throughout the election. So how do you change -- specifically how do you change the Democratic -- what will you do, I guess within your coalition, to change the perceptions of Trump within your coalition?

MARTIN: Well, first, I mean, it's important to note that we know that those things happen in the election as well, which is we lost ground with women. We lost ground with younger voters. We lost ground with black men and Hispanic men.

The reality is we have to figure out the how and why. And until we have access to the data and we really dig into our spend, our messaging, our organizing tactics, it's hard to figure out what exactly happened there. Why did we lose ground?

But it's clear we did, and we have to figure something out. Because to your point, perceptions become reality. And we saw that play out in this last election.

[08:34:47]

RAJU: But if you could just look at it, I know we look at the data to get all the full analysis. What is the biggest reason, do you think, for the Democratic brand being so bad right now? MARTIN: Well, it goes back to what I just said. I mean, clearly people

don't perceive the Democratic Party as their champion anymore, as someone that's, you know, a party that's fighting for them, that's putting an agenda forward, that's going to center the struggles of everyday Americans who are just trying to get ahead, right.

The reality is, is a big part of our coalition has been working people. And as I've said, we need to center a working agenda that connects all parts of this broad coalition, right.

What connects a farmer in southern Minnesota and an iron miner on the iron range in northern Minnesota, and someone who lives in the Twin Cities is they all have a job. They're all working hard, but they're not getting ahead and they're struggling to get by right now.

RAJU: One of the things, in addition to messaging and strategy, could be about things like the presidential primary calendar that you would have a say in. How do you feel about keeping South Carolina as the first primary state?

MARTIN: Well, what I would say is it's an important conversation. They both have to honor the traditions set forth in the diversity of our party, while also making sure that we have a rigorous, fair and efficient process where no one is putting their thumb on the scale. The process is open and transparent.

RAJU: Are you open to changing it?

MARTIN: Well, what I would say it's not up to me to change it. It's up to our rules and bylaws committee and the DNC committee members themselves.

I think a fulsome conversation has to happen, but what's really important is that whatever we decide, it battle tests our nominee and puts them in a position to win.

The role of a political party is singular. It's to win elections, and our calendar has to reflect that.

RAJU: So there's a big debate happening within Washington right now within the Democratic Party. But how do you position yourself in the minority against Donald Trump coming in here with the single party rule in Washington?

This is what one of our colleagues at CNN, Bakari Sellers, the Democratic strategist, he had tweeted about just what he calls the lack of considerable and formidable response against some of these controversial Trump picks like Kash Patel and Tulsi Gabbard.

He said -- he said that fight or something. That was his point. The Democrats need to fight.

Do you think that the Democrats need to be more vocal in their opposition to Trumps picks, like Kash Patel or Pete Hegseth?

MARTIN: I think we do need to fight, but it's not an either or. I think we do need to resist. We need to stand up and push back against some of the excesses and extremes that we're already seeing, particularly with these cabinet picks.

I mean, there is real danger that will be done to these agencies and, frankly, to this country with some of the picks that have been nominated at this point. So I think it's important for Democrats to roll up their sleeves and get in this fight.

But we can't spend our whole time in that space of just resisting because what are we doing if we're just talking about Donald Trump? We're not talking about ourselves. And clearly with our brand problem, we have to give people a sense of who we are, who we're fighting for and why.

RAJU: Did you have any problems with Biden and some of his actions at the end of his administration year? The number of pardons that he gave at the end of his term, including to his son, Hunter?

MARTIN: Well, let me just say you know, I think it's the height of hypocrisy for the Republicans to hammer at Joe Biden for pardoning his son after they pardoned, you know, two of his henchmen after, you know, 2020, in Manafort and, of course, Steve Bannon, as well as his son-in-law's father. The reality is, is for me, it's the height of hypocrisy.

What I would say is that we need reform in our presidential pardon system. No president, regardless of party, should be actually using the pardon system for personal favor.

RAJU: And very quickly, we have new reporting that about Kamala Harris debating her next political step. Do you think it's time for the party to have new candidates in 2028, or should she consider running?

MARTIN: Well, I think Kamala, she's 60 years old. She's young. She has a bright future. She will run for something. She should run for something. What is that? I don't know. But we have --

RAJU: President. Would you want her to run for president again?

MARTIN: I love Kamala Harris. Whatever she decides to do, it's not up to me, of course. It's up to her. And of course, our party will have a lot of candidates to choose from for 2028. We have a deep and great bench, and I'm convinced we'll win the presidency in 2028 with one of those candidates.

RAJU: All right. Ken Martin, thank you so much for joining me. Appreciate you giving me your thoughts on all these issues.

MARTIN: Appreciate it.

RAJU: All right. Coming up, Trump's allies are targeting their own party in the Senate. Will anyone break ranks on Trump's most controversial cabinet choices?

[08:38:57]

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RAJU: Donald Trump has spent years remaking the GOP in his image, often working to knock off wobbly Republicans in their primaries. But the full maga-fication of Congress is far from complete, and there are more than a handful of more traditional Republicans who could break ranks and give Trump and his agenda fits in the narrowly divided, GOP- led senate.

So Trump's allies are now seeking to impose party discipline with subtle and not so subtle threats to back primary foes against any GOP senator who opposes even the most controversial of cabinet picks.

Our new reporting this week details how Senate Republicans aren't happy with the tactics, but so far, keeping the door open to all of his picks. Now some, like Susan Collins of Maine, say the pressure campaign will not work.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: What do you think of the pressure campaign from the Trump allies to try to get you to toe the line on these nominees? Is it effective?

SEN. SUSAN COLLINS (R-ME): No. I've taken many, many difficult votes over the years that I've been privileged to serve in the Senate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And my panel is back.

I mean, these are the Republican senators you're going to want to watch because they're the ones who are up in 2026. They're the ones who may have to face primary challengers, and they're the ones that Trump and his allies are targeting.

[08:44:52]

STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Right. And it's one thing for Susan Collins to say that she's got her own conditions in Maine, her own power base. But its, as you were mentioning earlier, Senator Cassidy, for example, this week we saw Senator Joni Ernst come under increased pressure over the Pete Hegseth pick, who she had expressed some reservations against.

And she became in the full glare of the conservative media machine. And she eventually watered down. I think for people like her it's a question of not necessarily, do you get a primary challenge? Because a lot of people I spoke to in Iowa this week were saying, well, she's pretty well beloved as a senator up here. It's difficult to see her losing a primary.

But what do you get for being the one Republican senator standing out there and taking all this heat?

RAJU: Yes, no question about it. And there are four, remember, there are four Republicans that could defect (ph), to break ranks on any party line vote to derail a nominee from getting confirmed. And then there's the backlash that could occur if this pressure campaign intensifies. And Senator Lisa Murkowski, someone who has broken ranks many times over the years, including over Donald Trump, said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R-AK): The approach is going to be everybody toe the line, everybody line up. We got you here. And if you want to survive, you better be good. Don't get on Santa's naughty list here because we will primary you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: But she is one who has survived those efforts by the Trump allies to take her -- take her out.

DEIRDRE WALSH, NPR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: She has. And -- but they know what's coming. I mean, another one of the senators you showed on your list, Thom Tillis, who's in cycle in North Carolina, has made the argument that it doesn't serve Trump to push for this kind of pressure campaign because the concerns and questions that they have for some of these nominees are things that he says it's their job to ask them in these one-on-one meetings.

because Democrats at the confirmation hearing in public are going to come at a lot of these nominees really aggressively. And he said, if we don't find out some of the answers to some of these questions behind closed doors in our meetings, we're not doing Trump any favors if there's a surprise in the public hearing.

ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: But this is one of these places where senators, Republicans and Democrats over time talk a big game and then let's see what they actually do.

Susan Collins, she often says, I'll make my decision, however I make it, and then almost always ends up voting for the Republican position, including on Brett Kavanaugh, right, as maybe the most famous example.

So yes, they'll have the hearings. Let's see how many of them actually break ranks and what that means, because as you point out, it takes four senators to torpedo one of these nominations.

It's one thing to be there with a group of colleagues, but to be out on your own in the middle of this is a lot of political pressure.

And maybe Lisa Murkowski will be one of those people. Maybe not.

RAJU: And some have actually tried to make nice with Trump. Todd Young is someone who has not backed -- didn't back Trump. He would not say if he supported Trump when he ran for the presidency in 2024.

He said -- when I asked him about the past, he said, the people have spoken. I'm not even looking to the past. The incoming president won his election handily. The people spoke and it's my job now to do whatever I can to ensure that he has an incredible, successful four years and I intend to do that.

So you're hearing and seeing that too. Republicans falling in line.

VIVIAN SALAMA, NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER, WALL STREET JOURNAL: A lot of Republicans falling in line, even some Democrats who are politically-challenged are falling in line in terms of we'll hear them out and actually give them a chance to say their piece.

But the MAGA -- the interesting thing is how the lack of subtlety with some of the MAGA activists that are out there now, where they are literally calling out some of these senators, even just for expressing their view.

One example this week, Senator Mike Rounds of South Dakota mentioned that he had no problem with the job that outgoing FBI director Christopher Wray did during his tenure as FBI director.

And activist Charlie Kirk came out and warned him that he could get primaried if he expresses views like that. And so MAGA activists really going out there at this point, targeting certain senators for going out and basically supporting any position other than Trump's.

RAJU: One thing we know is that if a senators up for reelection, they tend to act a little differently than they would when they're not in cycle. It's something to watch the next two years.

All right.

Coming up, why speaker Mike Johnson is derailing an effort backed by Elon Musk and Donald Trump Jr. and why we may learn its fate today.

[08:48:58]

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RAJU: It's been a year's-long lobbying campaign led by parents who have lived through tragedy, who blamed the deaths of their children on social media. Their focus seeing the Kids Online Safety Act enacted into law, legislation that would require social media companies to restrict access to minors' personal data and give parents new options to supervise their kids use.

In an 11th hour boost, Elon Musk's X lent the bill its support, as did the president-elect's eldest son, Donald Trump Jr.

But even with their support, and even though the bill passed this summer by an eye popping 91 to 3 vote in the Senate, it now could collapse as the 118th Congress comes to an end.

And that's because of opposition from the top-two House GOP leaders, including the Speaker of the House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): The speaker is virtually alone in the United States Congress. Republicans in the House and the Senate favor it, Democrats in the

House and the Senate strongly support it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Big tech companies like Meta have tried to derail the bill, contending it censors free speech and gives the government too much power.

That criticism is echoed by the Speaker.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Mr. Speaker, what about on the issue of KOSA? There are these parents who have been fighting to get this bill approved, concerned about what's happened with their own children. Why are you resisting this bill?

[08:54:49]

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Online safety is critically important. I mean, I'm a parent, I get that. But we also have to make sure that we don't open the door for violations of free speech. And it's a very delicate balance.

It needs a little more tweaking and we'll do that. I think we can do it early next year.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: But the Senate GOP sponsor of the bill says it cannot wait until next year.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: What's the risk if they wait until next year?

SEN. MARSHA BLACKBURN (R-TN): The risk for waiting until next year is that you still have a virtual space where children are not protected.

I know the speaker is a good man. I know he wants to protect children. This needs to be done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now Blackburn says she's spoken to Donald Trump about the bill and the parents who have lost their kids have sent a letter to Melania Trump asking for her support as well.

The answer on who wins the lobbying campaign could come later today when Congress releases the year end spending bill that supporters hope will include this legislation. Otherwise, it will end up in Trump's lap in 2025.

That's it for INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. You can follow me on X @mkraju. Follow the show @insidepolitics and follow me on Instagram @manu_raju. If you ever miss an episode, catch up wherever you get your podcasts.

Just search for INSIDE POLITICS.

Up next, "STATE OF THE UNION WITH JAKE TAPPER AND DANA BASH". Jake has an exclusive interview with Republican Utah Senator Mitt Romney as he prepares to retire from Congress.

Thanks again for sharing your Sunday morning with us. We'll see you next time.

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