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Inside Politics
Robert Kennedy Jr's. Senate Confirmation Hearing For HHS Secretary. Aired 12-12:30p ET
Aired January 29, 2025 - 12:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:00:01]
WARREN: No. Look, no one should be fooled here.
KENNEDY: I thought...
WARREN: As Secretary of HHS, Robert Kennedy will have the power to undercut vaccines and vaccine manufacturing across our country. And for all of his talk about follow the science and his promise that he won't interfere with those of us who want to vaccinate his kids, the bottom line is that the same. Kennedy can kill off access to vaccines and make millions of dollars while he does it. Kids might die, but Robert Kennedy can keep cashing in.
KENNEDY: Senator, I support vaccines. I will -- I support the childhood schedule. I will do that. The only thing I want is good science, and that's it.
WARREN: How about then say you won't make money off what you do as Secretary of HHS?
CRAPO: Before we go to Senator Tillis, I think it's, would be important for me to make it very clear that Mr. Kennedy has gone through the same Office of Government Ethics process as every single other nominee in the Finance Committee this year and in previous administrations. In addition to listing his assets, including the items that you've identified, he has signed an ethics letter that has been reviewed by the Office of Government Ethics concerning any possible conflict in light of its functions and the nominee's proposed duties. And we have a letter from the Office of Government Ethics that he hasn't complied completely with all applicable laws and regulations governing conflicts of interest.
WARREN: Mr. Chairman, point of information here. Have we had a single nominee come through who's made $2.5 million of suing one of the entities that it would be regulating and plans to keep getting a take of every lawsuit in the future? Have we had that before?
CRAPO: I haven't reviewed the past documentation of every other nominee's financial interests and so no. But I know that every single time we get a nominee, their financial interests are attacked. That's why we have the Office of Government Ethics. That's why they've reviewed everything that's in, his record and that's why he has even, I think and I don't know that I want to ask him to get into it, but he has listed his assets and has gone through a discussion of the responsibilities under the, our ethics laws and is complied with all of those requirements.
Senator Tillis.
TILLIS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Kennedy, how's your morning going?
KENNEDY: So far, so good (inaudible).
TILLIS: You came prepared. I'm glad that you did. I -- you -- I believe addressed my satisfaction and question about Title 10 and the President's priority with respect to Planned Parenthood. Can you just affirm that, that you are 100 percent behind the President's policy on Title 10 and the implementation?
KENNEDY: I'm 100 percent behind it.
TILLIS: Thank you. You know, you, it's -- it's amazing to me that people -- well, first off, you need to understand you're there. I was in a judiciary hearing this morning. It's very clear to me that some of these nominations are going to be shirts and skins. So, no matter what you answer into the affirmative, they're going to ask you one more question so that you won't be able to answer in the affirmative. That's just the way the game that's played when we have anomaly nominees like yourself. So, I think you're -- you're handling yourself well.
I got a real quick question for you. Are you a conspiracy theorist?
KENNEDY: That is a pejorative Senator that's applied to me mainly to keep me from asking difficult questions, a powerful interest. I was told that I was a conspiracy theorist and label was applied to me because I said that the vaccines, the COVID vaccine it didn't prevent transmission, and it wouldn't prevent infection. When the government was telling people, Americans, that it would. I was saying that because I was looking at the monkey studies in May of 2020.
I was called a conspire -- now everybody admits it. I was called a conspiracy theorist because I said red dye caused cancer. And now FDA has acknowledged that and banned it. I was called a conspiracy theorist because I said, or I lowered IQ. Last week JAMA published a meta review of 87 studies saying that there's a direct inverse correlation between IQ loss.
TILLIS: All right, so I'm going to assume a lot of those.
KENNEDY: I can go on for about a week.
TILLIS: Is there any one of them that you can say, you got me? That really was a conspiracy theory, or are you in a position...
KENNEDY: I'm (inaudible).
TILLIS: ... to submit for the record? I think it'd just be helpful for every one of these narratives for you to submit that maybe for the record.
You said something about SNAP lunch. I was in the state house in North Carolina before I came here.
[12:05:00]
And anytime I'd go visit an elementary school, the first thing I would do is go to the trash cans in the cafeteria. And what we have now are kids that are not eating the food because the dictates of the federal government have made it something that they don't want. But they say, well, it's a healthy alternative. It has processed materials in it, and it's not particularly attractive to them. So, they throw it away. Trash can's full of food that these kids didn't eat. So, then what do they do? They go eat snacks. Or they go eat a sugar, or they drink a sugared drink.
The SNAP program, everything you've said about the SNAP program, I agree with. I think that we should be very, very strict about that, and it's going to make some people uncomfortable in food manufacturing segment, produce healthy foods that we can put in the SNAP program. That's the way to address it. But we also need to look at the school health program. I was PTA president 21, 22 years ago at my daughter's high school. And I feel like we've -- we -- we, we've got these kids that need help. We've got to guide them through a process. Many of them are probably on Medicaid and Medicaid's fouling them. Everybody here says Medicaid is sacrosanct. Nobody's admitted that Medicaid is not producing positive health outcomes. Is that your problem? Medicaid right now? And the program or the outcomes?
KENNEDY: Is the outcomes. We're spending $900 billion. Our people are getting sicker every single year.
TILLIS: Yeah. So, anybody...
KENNEDY: (Inaudible) Trump wants people to have it. Americans have a high-quality insurance.
TILLIS: Anybody who's building a case for the status quo of Medicaid is by extension saying that they're happy with the outcomes. I think it's unacceptable.
I do have a question for you on Project Warp Speed. We supported the CARES Act. We had 97 people in the U.S. Senate vote for it. Everybody here, there's only one member of Congress that voted against it, I believe. And Project Warp Speed had CDC, FDA, NIH, and BARDA very much in the mix.
Now, some people think that you're going to come in here and, and insert yourself into those agencies in a way that's never been done before. Let's say that they're -- they're a part of a future Project Warp Speed. Is it your intent to go in and do something that's -- that's never been done before, based on my staff's research and insert yourself in a discussion that the scientists are dealing with in those different agencies?
KENNEDY: No, Senator -- I -- what I want to do is empower, I'm not a scientist, I want to empower scientists. I want to make sure that science is unobstructed by vested or economic interests.
TILLIS: That's good. I got...
KENNEDY: That culture. And I'll just say about Operational Warp Speed. It was an extraordinary accomplishment, a demonstration of leadership by President Trump. When he -- when he promoted Operational Warp Speed, he was looking at all of the different remedies, including vaccines.
TILLIS: Therapeutics, everything.
KENNEDY: Therapeutic, ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, famotidine, even chlorine dioxide. And he was not looking at shutting down our country for the year, forcing people to wear masks for a year. Forcing all social distancing that did not have any scientific basis, which Dr. Fauci has now acknowledged. He said, we took it out of thin air. Oh, but my -- but all of those changed during the Biden administration. I became very narrowly focused. We ended up with the worst, highest death count of any country in the world.
TILLIS: Mr. Chair, if I can just ask one final question, and I think it's a one-word answer. I've heard a lot of people complaining about health care delivery, Medicaid on the other side of the dais here. Who's been responsible for health care policies over the last four years?
KENNEDY: The Biden administration.
TILLIS: I mean the president, the Biden -- OK.
KENNEDY: Yeah.
TILLIS: So that, I'd like to have heard more of those in oversight hearings over the last four years. I haven't, but I'm glad that there's an acknowledgement that you're inheriting a problem that needs to be fixed.
Thank you.
KENNEDY: Thank you, Senator.
CRAPO: Senator Sanders.
SANDERS: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Kennedy, thanks for being with us. I very much like the slogan that you coined, Make America Healthy Again. And I strongly agree with that effort. Despite spending, as you indicated, two or three times as much per capita on health care is other nations, we have 85 million people who are uninsured, underinsured. We have all kinds of chronic illnesses. Our life expectancy is lower than other countries and for working class people in this country, they're living six, seven years shorter lives than the top 1 percent. We got a problem. OK? And I'm going to suggest some ideas that I think can remedy that.
Last year, the insurance industry in this country made over $70 billion, well, at the same time, 85 million Americans are uninsured or underinsured.
[12:10:04]
Do you agree with me that the United States should join every other major country on earth and guarantee health care to all people as a human right? Yes? No?
KENNEDY: Senator, I can't give you a yes or no answer to that question (inaudible)...
SANDERS: Health care a human right? Is health care a human right?
KENNEDY: In the way that free speech, the human right...
SANDERS: Yeah.
KENNEDY: ... I would say it's different because if with free speech doesn't cost anybody anything, but in healthcare, if you smoke cigarettes for 20 years and you get cancer, do you -- you are now taking from the pool.
And so are you guaranteed the same (inaudible)...
(CROSSTALK)
KENNEDY: ... duty?
SANDERS: I'm sorry. I'd love to talk for an hour with you. We got a few minutes left here. All right. Every other country says health care, whether you're poor or rich, younger role to human right. I'm not hearing you say that. All right, you've talked about the drug companies and maybe we agree on this one.
As you all know, despite the drug companies making over 100 billion in profits, paying CEOs outrageous compensation, packages. We in some cases pay 10 times more for the same drug.
Will you support legislation that I will introduce, which says that in America, we should not be paying a nickel more for prescription drugs than people around the rest of the world? Yes? No?
KENNEDY: To equalize it...
SANDERS: Not to equalize it. That we should not be paying more than other countries for the same damn drug.
KENNEDY: President Trump has asked me -- in fact, I had a meeting with President Trump a week ago where we showed him the charts.
SANDERS: He knows the charts. I watched that it's...
KENNEDY: Yes. We're paying 10 times more from Europe.
SANDERS: That's right. And are you going to commit to us that you will end that absurdity?
KENNEDY: I think in principle, we can. We should -- we should end that disparity.
SANDERS: Good. OK. That's great. All right. I happen to believe that climate change is real. It's an existential threat and it is a healthcare issue. Donald Trump thinks that it is a hoax originating in China.
Question is, in your judgment, is climate change a hoax or is it real causing devastating problems?
KENNEDY: President Trump and I, from the beginning, from our first meeting, agreed to disagree on that issue. I believe climate change is existential.
My job is to make Americans healthy again. And what I'm...
SANDERS: All right. You believe that -- all right. You think that -- you disagree with Trump. You don't think climate change is a hoax is what I'm hearing.
KENNEDY: My job here is...
SANDERS: Just answer, Mr. Kennedy. Not a trick question.
KENNEDY: I answered your question, Senator.
SANDERS: OK. You disagree with the president on that.
KENNEDY: I answered your question.
SANDERS: OK. I want to pick up on a point that Senator Hassan make. Look, there is no question that abortion is a divisive issue in this country. I would say a majority of the people are pro-choice. There's a strong minority walk for life.
A year and a half ago, you went to New Hampshire, running for president, gave a speech, and you talked about government should not tell a woman what she can do with her own body. That's her choice.
Now, I think everybody on that side is pro-life. I think everybody here is pro-choice. I have never seen any major politician flip on that issue quite as quickly as you did when Trump asked you to become HHS secretary.
Tell me why you think people should have confidence in your consistency and in your work when you really made a major U-turn on an issue of that importance in such a short time.
KENNEDY: Senator, I believe, and I've always believed that every abortion is a tragedy.
SANDERS: But you told the people of New Hampshire that it was their right. All right. Let me do one last question here because I'm running out of time.
I think the gist of what you're trying to say today is you're really pro-vaccine, you want to ask questions. You have started a group called the Children's Health Defense. You're the original.
Right now, as I understand it, on their website, they are selling what's called onesies. These are little things, clothing for babies. One of them is titled, Unvaxxed Unafraid.
Next one, and they're sold for 26 bucks a piece, by the way. Next one is No Vax, No Problem.
Now you're coming before this committee and you say you're a pro- vaccine. Just want to ask some questions.
[12:15:00]
And yet your organization is making money selling a child's product to parents for 26 bucks, which has fundamental doubt on the usefulness of vaccines.
Can you tell us now that you will -- now that you are pro-vaccine, that you're going to have your organization take these products off the market?
KENNEDY: Senator, I have no power over that organization. I'm not a part of it. I resigned from the board.
SANDERS: That was just a few months ago. You founded that. You certainly have power. You could make that call.
KENNEDY: I don't -- I mean...
SANDERS: Are you supportive of this?
KENNEDY: I've had nothing to do with leadership.
SANDERS: Are you supportive of these onesies?
KENNEDY: I'm supportive of vaccines.
SANDERS: Are you supportive of these -- this clothing, which is militantly anti-vaccine?
KENNEDY: I am supportive of vaccines. Well, I want good science and I want to protect the vaccines.
SANDERS: But you will not tell the organization you founded not to continue selling that product. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
CRAPO: Senator Blackburn.
BLACKBURN: Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. And thank you so much for being with us today.
And I have no doubt that you will be confirmed. And you are going to do such a solid job for the people of this country.
And I do have several issues I wanted to talk with you about, and I didn't have time to cover them all when we met prior to the meeting, but rural healthcare is very important to me and the people of Tennessee, 78 of our 95 counties are rural counties.
Now, over the last few years, we've seen hospital closures. So we have focused on access in rural areas and my rural health agenda, which is bipartisan, focuses on innovation, telehealth, access points. It focuses on work shortages.
And also, Senator Warner and I have together focused on making certain that we address the area wage index and do that fairly for our citizens that are in rural communities. So I would like a commitment from you that when confirmed, you and your CMS administrator will work with us to make certain that the area wage index is balanced and that it is fair to rural areas.
KENNEDY: Senator, both Dr. Oz and myself recognize that rural healthcare is in crisis in this country and that is catastrophic for our entire country. I talked a little bit about my commitment to rural health earlier in this hearing.
The regional price points, as you know, are set by Congress and not by HHS. But I will...
BLACKBURN: CMS.
KENNEDY: ... certainly, and I know Dr. Oz will certainly work with you...
BLACKBURN: Right.
KENNEDY: ... to...
BLACKBURN: Thank you.
KENNEDY: ... make them sensible.
BLACKBURN: We look forward to that.
Also, you and I, before you came forward as the secretary, the nominee, we had talked in years past about overmedicating youth and concerns over that. And I was looking at a report from TennCare, which is our Medicaid program in Tennessee.
And I was concerned when I saw a number that TennCare had spent $90 million in 2024 alone on ADHD. This was 417,000 of our children. And $90 million -- to me, that is heart-breaking, what is happening there.
So, how will you prioritize oversight of prescribing practices while promoting alternative solutions such as counseling, behavioral therapies, community-based interventions for our youth?
KENNEDY: Exactly, and that's the solution. Fifteen percent of American youth are now on Adderall or some other ADHD medication. Even higher percentages are on SSRIs and Benzos. We are not just overmedicating our children, we're overmedicating our entire population.
Half the pharmaceutical drugs on Earth are now sold here. Seventy percent of the profits from pharmaceutical companies are from the United States, even though we only have 4.2 percent of the world's population.
Not only that, but a recent study by Cochrane Collaboration founder, Peter Gotzsche, found that pharmaceutical drugs are the third largest cause of death in our country after heart attacks and cancers.
Oh, they're not making us healthier. We need community health initiatives. We need access to treatment. We need exercise. We need better food.
[12:20:00]
BLACKBURN: OK. Let me talk to you about one of those access points in treatment, and this highlights a problem we have in the federal Medicaid law. Since Medicaid's enactment, states have been prohibited from using Medicaid funds for care provided by Institutions for Mental Disease. We refer to them as IMDs.
These are psychiatric hospitals, residential treatment facilities with more than 16 beds. This is a discriminatory exclusion and it denies payment for medically necessary care based on the illness that is being treated and it has perpetuated unequal coverage in mental healthcare.
So if you're confirmed, when you're confirmed. Will you commit to working with me on repealing this discriminatory exclusion and ensuring equal access to mental healthcare for Medicaid beneficiaries?
KENNEDY: Yes, Senator.
BLACKBURN: Thank you so much. I've got a question on PBM reform, one on artificial intelligence in healthcare. In the interest of time, I will yield back. I look forward to seeing you help make us healthy again.
KENNEDY: Thank you, Senator.
(APPLAUSE)
CRAPO: Senator Lujan.
(CROSSTALK)
CRAPO: Excuse me, just -- I made a mistake. It's Senator Cantwell.
CANTWELL: Thank you so much. Thank you Mr. Chairman. And just congratulations on your nomination, Mr. Kennedy. And I've been absent only because I've been in another hearing with the nominee to be the Commerce Secretary. So I will review everything that you've said today and look at that diligently.
But one of the things that I wanted to discuss with you is I represent a very big innovation state. An innovation in healthcare, specifically, innovation like NIH funding to the Fred Hutch Cancer Center that helped develop the HPV vaccine, which has the potential to eliminate over 95 percent of cervical cancer. NIH also funds a lot of jobs and grants nearly 11,000 people in the state of Washington and over $1.2 billion worth of grants. So while I agree with you on healthy foods, I definitely am troubled by the medical research side of innovation and some of the things that you have said.
In fact, this issue about laying off 600 employees at NIH or giving the fact that, to quote, give infectious disease a break for eight years.
So I -- we've had a chance to talk about this a little bit. But the most striking example of this is when COVID hit. And we were the first in the nation. We had the first case. And it really was the fast response by the University of Washington that really helped save lives.
So I just want to know that, are you aware of how harmful these issues could be for public health, that public health, in and of itself, could be affected by these kind of anti-science views?
KENNEDY: Senator, I have always been a science person, a pro-science person. I believe in evidence-based medicine and gold standard science.
When I said -- and I've explained this before you came in, that 600 people out of a -- out of workforce of 91,000 is pretty typical. Last year alone, President Biden replaced 3,000 people at HHS and 700 at NIH.
I want to say this. I said give infectious disease a break because that's been the principle preoccupation. Infectious disease -- chronic disease is 92 percent -- accounts for 92 percent of deaths in this country and almost nothing is studied at NIH about the etiology of our chronic disease epidemic.
CANTWELL: But right now...
KENNEDY: The money is going to infectious disease and...
CANTWELL: But I get -- I get your point. It's an interesting point. The problem is, we had to respond. And it's actually the Gates Foundation and a flu cohort that figured out what was wrong. And that we had an outbreak of COVID that was going beyond the very first case. And so we had to build a very fast response.
So I take this to the University of Washington has conducted ground- breaking stem cell research on fetal tissue. To me, I know there's probably a lot of people that may not agree with this, but we're making regenerative heart tissue now at the University of Washington.
So yes or no, do you commit to protecting stem cell research for scientific agencies if confirmed?
[12:25:06]
KENNEDY: I will protect stem cell research. Stem cell research today can be done on umbilical cords and you don't need fetal tissue.
CANTWELL: You'll protect the laws that are on the books today and the research has done.
KENNEDY: My job is, Senator, to enforce the laws.
CANTWELL: OK. So I want to move to PBMs because PBMs are driving up drug prices. And one of the biggest things that we need to do here, I think, in a new administration is get a handle on everything that is driving up prices and lower them.
The report found that PBMs generated $1.4 billion from spread pricing. That is where they are able to basically set the price, not reimburse pharmacies, and then pocket the rest. We've had bipartisan legislation in several different committees now to get at this.
What do you think the solution is?
KENNEDY: I think one of the really notable achievements of this panel was the PBM legislation that they put together in a bipartisan way. I haven't met a single senator. Well, actually one only of the 60 odd senators that I talked to. All of them talked about PBMs and how important it was and work.
President Trump, during his first administration, pushed through a law or pushed a law to give transparency to PBMs. It got overruled during the Biden administration. Luckily, this panel is resuscitating that. President Trump is absolutely committed to fixing the PBMs.
CANTWELL: My time is running out so I just want to clarify. You believe that we should pass these laws that now have been proposed in the Senate?
KENNEDY: I haven't read the entire law, so I don't know. But I think that we need to reform the PBMs. I think we need...
CANTWELL: But -- and, you know, somebody suggest...
KENNEDY: And to get rid of all of these vested interests that are draining money from this system.
CANTWELL: OK. Somebody suggested though that you thought we should -- you should convene the PBMs and talk to them about some sort of self- regulation. So I am trying to distinguish between these people...
KENNEDY: Yes.
CANTWELL: ... who basically are doing illegal activities and ripping off -- really they're creating pharmacy deserts in my state. So I'm asking you whether you believe that we have to legislate in this area.
KENNEDY: I -- again, I'm not being evasive. I just don't know exactly what the law says.
I met with the PBMs. I met with pharma. My job is to meet with all the stakeholders. I've been meeting with stakeholders for 40 years. People I was suing. People I was -- you want to hear from the other side.
CANTWELL: Well...
KENNEDY: That...
CANTWELL: OK.
KENNEDY: ... doesn't mean I would let the PBMs write their own ticket.
CANTWELL: I think...
KENNEDY: I support the -- I support the efforts of this committee to come up with bipartisan legislation. President Trump wants to get the excess profits away from the PBMs and send it back to primary care, to patients in this country, a high-quality health care.
CANTWELL: I'll ask you for the record, since my time has expired, to look at the legislation that came out of the Commerce Committee that defines the legal activities that they are doing to drive up prices. And get us an answer for the record.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
KENNEDY: In principle I support that legislation.
CRAPO: Thank you.
And let me just tell you the list as we have to move forward to the ending here. Senator Lujan will be next, followed by Senator Marshall, Senator Warnock, Senator Smith, Senator Young, and Senator Welch.
WYDEN: And let me say again, Mr. Chairman, this is a matter of such importance. A number of my colleagues would like a second round and I think it would be important to offer, say a modest amount of additional time to get into this on both sides. I know I have some questions but I want my colleagues to have the opportunity to raise their concerns as well.
CRAPO: Well, I've said -- as I have indicated to you, Senator Wyden. I'm not going to do a second round. I have been very generous with the senators. I think almost every single senator has had seven minutes at least. And I will give you a second, as is the -- our practice...
WYDEN: I think I'll...
CRAPO: ... between the two of us.
WYDEN: I'll then divide my time up with my colleagues.
CRAPO: OK. You are welcome to do that.
WYDEN: Thank you.
CRAPO: Senator Lujan?
LUJAN: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Kennedy, when we met, you stated to me that it is not your goal to take away programs that work for Americans? Do you stand by that statement?
KENNEDY: Yes Senator.
LUJAN: Mr. Kennedy, do you know, how many Americans rely on Medicaid?
KENNEDY: About 72 million plus the 7 million kids who are on chips.
LUJAN: I appreciate that; 72 million.
Yes or no? Is it important that expectant mothers and newborns have access to health coverage?
KENNEDY: (inaudible).
LUJAN: Is it important that expectant mothers and newborns have access to health coverage?
KENNEDY: Absolutely Senator.
[12:30:09]