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Inside Politics

NYT: Trump Admin Asks Congress To Rescind $1.1B In Federal Funding For Public Broadcasting; WH Claims PBS And NPR Share "Radical, Woke Propaganda"; Zuckerberg Testifies In Second Day Of Antitrust Trial Against Meta; Meta Could Be Forced To Sell Instagram, WhatsApp If It Loses; Gov. Whitmer Laughs Off Viral Office Photo; AOC, Sanders Draw Large Crowds On "Fighting Oligarchy" Tour. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired April 15, 2025 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[12:31:44]

FRED ROGERS, CHILDREN'S TELEVISION HOST & AUTHOR: What do you do with the mad that you feel when you feel so mad you could bite, when the whole wide world seems oh so wrong, and nothing you do seems very right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's wonderful. I think it's wonderful. Looks like you just earned the $20 million.

(END VIDEOCLIP)

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: Still gives me all the feels. That was Mr. Rogers testifying before a Senate subcommittee in 1969. I've seen that in clips on YouTube, to be clear. Fred Rogers' iconic testimony is credited with saving federal funding for public television back then. But it is, of course, 2025. That was a very long time ago.

Lots of Conservatives have never given up the dream of defunding both PBS and NPR. The New York Times is reporting that the White House plans to ask Congress to take back more than $1 billion in federal funding that was slated for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, the company that funds public broadcasters like PBS and NPR and other stations across the U.S.

CNN Chief Media Analyst Brian Stelter joins me now. Brian, thanks for being here. As I mentioned, this has been -- since I've been in Washington and well before I got to Washington, this has been a Republican goal to try to defund PBS and NPR.

What has changed now, aside from the obvious that Donald Trump is there and he, you know, doesn't feel like he needs Congress to do such things? And more importantly, from your perspective, from your reporting perch, what would it mean for PBS and NPR?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA ANALYST: Right. Normally, PBS and NPR are able to get through these funding fights because there are so many local stations, especially in rural areas, frankly, in red states that need this funding in order to stay on the air. So there are enough lawmakers on the Republican side as well as Democratic side that end up supporting public broadcasting.

This funding is usually budgeted two years in advance, and it was just okayed by Congress and signed into law by President Trump last month. But now, through this rescission process, there is an attempt to claw the money back.

PBS and NPR are not commenting at the moment, but they've been making preparations for this possibility. It would mean that local stations, smaller stations, and some of these smaller producers would be hardest hit. For example, the group that produces Sesame Street only relies on government funding for about 4 percent of the production.

Sesame Street would still suffer, but it wouldn't go off the air as a result of losing government funding. However, there are all smaller stations in smaller states and rural areas that would really suffer if they lost this funding, and those are the kinds of preparations that are now underway.

As you said, this would be a big victory for Republicans who have wanted this to happen for decades, but it would also be, in many cases, Republican constituents that would suffer, Dana.

BASH: Yes. That is such a good point. Brian, just real quick, what is the White House saying about not just --

STELTER: Yes.

BASH: -- PBS and NPR, but about its broader fights with media organizations, including the AP that we were talking about before the break?

STELTER: Right. When it comes to the White House's framing of this, it's about taking on woke-ism and liberal bias. Here's a part of the quote from the White House website. They've listed off what they believe are examples of partisan bias at NPR and PBS, saying, quote, "For years, American taxpayers have been on the hook for subsidizing NPR and PBS, which spread radical, woke propaganda disguised as news".

[12:35:12]

Some of the examples on the list on the White House website are examples of NPR and PBS simply covering the news, for example, about transgender Americans. So that list very much about the President's priorities trying to push back on DEI.

More broadly, Dana, you refer to the AP. We see the FCC under pressure. We see signs of authoritarianism all around. And yet networks like CBS just keep reporting the news. That's true as well, Dana, at PBS and NPR.

BASH: All right, Brian, thank you so much for being here. Appreciate it. Coming up, Meta might meet its match. Mark Zuckerberg's company is facing an existential threat, an antitrust trial that could force it to sell off Instagram. Kara Swisher is here next.

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[12:40:29]

BASH: Meta founder and CEO Mark Zuckerberg is back on the stand today in a blockbuster antitrust case. The fate of his company, as it is now, is on the line. If Meta loses the case, it could be forced to sell Instagram and WhatsApp. It could pose a threat to other Silicon Valley giants, Zuckerberg and his fellow tech titans. Of course, you see that picture now, this very famous, infamous picture of all of them trying to curry favor starting on his inauguration day.

Kara Swisher, the host of podcast, the podcast "On with Kara Swisher" and co-host of "Pivot", joins me now. Hi, Kara.

KARA SWISHER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Hey, how are you doing?

BASH: I like the way your new studio is going.

SWISHER: Yes. You know, I can't (INAUDIBLE).

BASH: I do. So yesterday, Meta tried to make the case in this trial --

SWISHER: Yes.

BASH: -- that it still faces plenty of competition in the social media space.

SWISHER: Yes.

BASH: Is there anyone who you talk to besides people at Meta or Mark Zuckerberg who see it that way?

SWISHER: No, a lot of people do. I mean, what -- they're trying to argue that things have changed. Now, there's no question they dominated the friends and family zone for a long time. But the argument they're making now is it's a bigger social media isn't social media anymore. It's entertainment, broad based, that's what Mark was trying to.

They're trying to pin him down that they run the friends and family zone. And in that regard, they do in lots of ways. And so they want to be part of a bigger universe that includes, you know, TikTok, for example, has become a big competitor.

And so it shouldn't just be Snapchat and MeWe that it should be a broader one. And things have changed. That is absolutely true. And the question is, why didn't -- why didn't anybody else thrive but Facebook back then? It's because Facebook did have a dominance. And so they're arguing the future. And the FTC, as government often is, is quite late, is arguing a little bit in the past. BASH: Well, what is so interesting to me, Kara, is that when we say government, the government now is a totally different animal than it was, you know --

SWISHER: Sure.

BASH: -- before January 20th. And on that note, we have seen Mark Zuckerberg cozying up to the President.

SWISHER: Yes.

BASH: We showed a picture of him, of course, at the inauguration. He has been to the White House. He has been to Mar-a-Lago. He donate -- his company donated money to the inauguration. He bought a house here in Washington. Are you surprised that Trump didn't pull the plug on this case?

SWISHER: Well, I don't know if he can. I mean, he's trying to. He's trying to take over the FTC. He fired and it's probably illegal, the two Democratic members of the FTC. But this case was already going. And in fact, a lot of -- some of these cases began in the Trump era, the first Trump era.

BASH: Right.

SWISHER: Right?

BASH: Because --

SWISHER: I think there's a lot of --

BASH: -- they viewed Mark Zuckerberg very differently then.

SWISHER: Right. But they still might view him the same way, right? I'm not so sure that Mark is -- you know, Elon is one thing, but Mark Zuckerberg is another with these people.

BASH: How come?

SWISHER: And so, I just think there's still an antipathy towards Mark in -- on both sides of the aisle. I don't think it's necessarily, you know, I don't think they've -- just because he's having dinner with him and things like that. I mean, Trump requires that. He was quite hostile to Zuckerberg after he lost, especially because, you know, he pulled him off of Facebook and stuff like that.

And so we'd like to blame him for a lot of stuff. So you just never know. You can't depend on Donald Trump in this way. And there's a lot of very firm antitrust people, including JD Vance, in the Trump administration.

So I think they'll just wait and see how this trial goes. It's not the strongest of the cases. That's for sure, that there are other companies like Google and Apple and Amazon are facing.

BASH: Are they concerned, CEOs of those companies? SWISHER: You know, they don't want -- the reason they're here and posing for the cameras with Donald Trump is so they can do as much as they can to stop it. I think inevitably, there will be some legislation, but they're doing what they can to stave off both regulation, legislation and any legal action. And they're not going to win on all these things.

BASH: I like your optimism about legislation on anything --

SWISHER: Yes, me too, oh you can --

BASH: -- especially regarding tech. But --

SWISHER: They're not going to do it.

BASH: Yes.

SWISHER: I talk about that with Amy Klobuchar quite a bit.

BASH: Yes, I'm sure.

SWISHER: She's been trying for years (INAUDIBLE).

BASH: Yes. Who literally wrote the book on antitrust. I do want to show our viewers the fact that you, of course, have a pretty long history with Mark Zuckerberg. You interviewed him many times, but there's one specific moment you were with him at a conference back in 2010. Let's watch it.

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SWISHER: Do you feel like you're violating people's privacy? Do you feel like you're adequately portrayed as a -- because they want to wonder about the person who actually created this thing?

MARK ZUCKERBERG, FOUNDER & CEO, FACEBOOK: Yes. I mean, you know, a lot of stuff happened along the way. I think, you know, there were real learning points and turning points along the way in terms of building things.

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[12:45:18]

BASH: And we're continuing to watch, because at a certain point, as you can see --

SWISHER: Yes.

BASH: -- he was so warm, he was sweating. He had to take off his -- what was then his trademark --

SWISHER: Hoodie.

BASH: -- hoodie.

SWISHER: Yes, I have that hoodie now, by the way. Someone gave it to me.

BASH: And it looks like you still have the same chair.

SWISHER: Yes, I do. Yes, exactly. You know, that was a difficult time. We were talking about privacy and Mark had an issue -- I don't know what happened to him there, but he kind of had a meltdown. And, you know, we were still discussing the same issues is what power do you have over citizens and how responsible are you with the power that you have?

And I think that's still on trial here. And it's important to remember that no matter how much they pretend, they're on the ropes, they're not on the ropes. They're the most powerful communications and social media company in existence that ever existed.

And so, when they're sort of doing this, we have so much trouble competing. I think, you know, it's sort of like a giant telling you how hard it is to be that big kind of thing.

BASH: Kara, it's always good to talk to you. Thank you so much for joining me.

SWISHER: Thank you.

BASH: Red chair and all.

SWISHER: Thank you.

BASH: Talk to you soon.

And coming up from free throws to free trade, the shadow campaign for 2028 is in full swing. And ESPN host Stephen A. Smith says he has no choice but to consider a presidential run. Let's talk about that after a break.

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[12:51:03]

BASH: It is never too early on Inside Politics to talk about the next presidential election. As you know, if you've watched this show, we are talking about 2028 as much as we can. So let's do it right now. Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, she joked about her nightmare moment in the Oval Office.

She was photographed holding folders in front of her face after being unexpectedly brought into the President's office during a signing of executive orders. Otherwise known as the Oval Office. Listen to what she said about that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You've been in the news a lot lately. You've been busy. Yes. How was Washington? Did you -- you --

GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D), MICHIGAN: You asked me, what was going through your mind at that moment? And it was, I don't want my picture taken. That's all it was. I kind of wish I hadn't put my folder up in front of my face, but whatever.

You know, I was there -- I mean, I just wrote a book about learning to laugh at yourself. So I'm pretty good at it. And we all make, you know, we all have our moments.

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BASH: You can say that again. This picture that she was talking about that we showed was taken by New York Times photographer Eric Lee on Friday.

SEUNG MIN KIM, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. And I think right now she has no choice but to laugh it off. But clearly this is something that's -- it's an image that's going to come back to her, should she run or should she pursue a higher bid. And I think it's really interesting because you see leading Democrats take two different approaches when it comes to Trump.

You have the Democrats such as Cory Booker, who is, you know, delivering these 25-hour speeches against Trump. You have Bernie Sanders traveling to places like Idaho and Utah and drawing thousands to criticize -- in his speeches to criticize the Trump administration.

Gretchen Whitmer has a different imperative here. She clearly represents the Trump states. A lot of her voters are Trump voters. She wanted to go to Washington to make it clear that she can work with the Trump administration. But the President knows what he's doing. He brought her in --

BASH: Oh yes.

KIM: -- made her uncomfortable, and this is what she's getting.

BASH: Yes. No question. Let's talk Stephen A. Smith. For those who are watching who might not know who he is, he is a very famous host on ESPN. He was interviewed by our friend John Karl over at ABC. And here's what Stephen A. Smith said.

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STEPHEN A. SMITH, HOST, ESPN'S "FIRST TAKE": I would hope somebody else would step up that's more qualified than me. But if it has to come down to me, it is something I would consider. Yes, I would, because I don't mind the thought of tussling with these folks at all on the left or the right.

I didn't hear anything about terrorists from the Democrats before the election. Instead, they talked about everything from woke culture to cancer culture to abortion rights and all of this other stuff. But that wasn't going to win the election. And that's what we have to look at.

What is it going to take to get the job done? That's why somebody who's a sports analyst, for crying out loud, is in the daggone polls.

(END VIDEOCLIP) BASH: He said speculation about me is an indictment of the Dems.

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I mean, and that, I mean, seriously, why not? Sure. Right. I mean, we'd like to -- the President's a former reality TV host. But what he said there, I think there is deep, deep dissatisfaction among Democrats with their leaders and with their leadership and the direction that the party is going. And, you know, the base on to the Moderates.

So I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see more what's called them unconventional candidates mulling and perhaps throwing their hats into the ring in 2028.

BASH: You mentioned Bernie Sanders. I'm not sure he's actually going to run again. I mean, stranger things have happened. But he's been on the road a lot --

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF & POLITICAL DIRECTOR: He's indicated it's not likely.

BASH: Yes, OK.

CHALIAN: We should be clear.

BASH: Yes, I know. I know. Yes. I think it's --

KIM: A little laugh there.

BASH: I think unlikely is we can probably take him at his word. But he has been on the road with somebody who is a few years younger than he, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who has been all over. And they both, but her in particular in recent days, has been continuing to get very big crowds.

And she has been going to places other than traditional blue states. This is very much a red state. This is the state of Idaho, David.

[12:55:02]

CHALIAN: Yes. You know, we used to call this phase of the primary season three years out, the invisible primary. There's nothing invisible about it anymore. It's quite visible. And this is not to be dismissed.

Like, you know, part of why AOC is joined at the hip with Bernie Sanders, why he wants her there is because together they draw this kind of thing. And there is a bit of a passing of the torch of this left wing populist thing inside the Democratic Party.

Now, whether she chooses to run or not remains to be seen. But clearly being out there now and drawing those kinds of crowds, that will be information that she uses to process that decision down the road.

BASH: No question about it. And I just remember being in her office several years ago and girls would come and bring Post-its and put them on her office door asking her to run for president. And that was -- don't even think she was constitutionally able to run for president at that time. So, it's been out there. We'll see.

Thanks, guys. Thanks for everything. Thanks for being here.

Thank you for joining Inside Politics. CNN News Central starts after the break.