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Interview with Rep. Jason Crow (D-Co); Dems Face Tough Choices as they Map Out 2026 Senate Fight; This Week: George Santos to be Sentenced on Federal Charges. Trump's Clash With Judiciary Escalates Amid Broader Pushback; Trump Double Downs On Abrego Garcia Case: "Never Coming Back"; NYT: Trump Admin. Draft Order Calls For State Department Overhaul. Aired 8-9a ET

Aired April 20, 2025 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:00:28]

MANU RAJU, CNN HOST (voice-over): Face off.

SEN. CHRIS VAN HOLLEN (D-MD): This case is not just about one man.

RAJU: The Supreme Court deals a blow to Trump as he tries to reshape the narrative.

STEPHEN MILLER, HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISOR AND WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF FOR POLICY: This is the biggest, sharpest contrast you will ever see.

RAJU: But as he digs in, is the tide turning?

CROWD: Donald Trump has got to go!

RAJU Plus, is Trump about to take his most dramatic step yet to gut American diplomacy?

And plan of attack.

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): Donald Trump is a criminal.

RAJU: As progressives capitalize on anti-Trump anger, we go one on one with Democratic Congressman Jason Crow on his plan to reach Trump voters.

REP. JASON CROW (D-CO): The president does what he always does. He always makes it about him.

RAJU: And sentencing.

GEORGE SANTOS (R), FORMER U.S. CONGRESSMAN: Pleading guilty is a step I never imagined I'd take.

RAJU: This week, George Santos faces years in prison, but a pardon from Trump be on the table.

INSIDE POLITICS, the best reporting from inside the corridors of power, starts now.

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RAJU (on camera): Good morning and welcome to INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY, on this Easter Sunday. I'm Manu Raju.

President Trump's clash with the judiciary escalated a new -- to a new level this weekend, when in an early morning, Saturday morning rebuke, the conservative Supreme Court paused the deportation of a group of Venezuelan migrants his administration tried to deport, invoking the 1798 Alien Enemies Act. It's a law rarely used before Trump took power again in January.

It's also the latest setback Trump faces from the courts as he wields power in unprecedented ways, declaring national emergencies as a way to disregard the boundaries of federal law and the limits of his office. As he pushes ahead on his agenda while seeking to limit dissent.

Just this week, using federal power and threats to withhold money for institutions that don't bend to his demands, like Harvard university sending up a high stakes showdown.

All as just yesterday across the country, thousands took to the streets to rally against Trump. But what does it all mean for the direction that Trump is taking the country? And are there any guardrails able to rein in his ambitions?

Let's break this all down with an excellent panel this morning. NPR's Tamara Keith; CNN's Isaac Dovere; Priscilla Alvarez, also with CNN; and "The New York Times'" Julie Davis.

Good morning to you all. Good to see you all.

Priscilla, you cover immigration. You know, this issue back and forth. We've seen the Trump administration defy lower courts time and again, particularly on this case involving this Maryland man who was deported to El Salvador. They said mistakenly initially.

How do we expect the administration to deal with this? Will they defy the Supreme Court as well?

PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, there is a trend here, right, where the groups are going directly to the Supreme Court. And this was pretty remarkable, the Alien Enemies Act, because in a moment where they were asking the lower court to step in and the circuit court to step in, while all of that was happening, they immediately also went to the Supreme Court. And that speaks to the level of distrust that's happening, not only among the groups who are suing the administration, but also with the judges and the courts themselves for the reasons that you laid out, Manu. Now, in this case, with the Alien Enemies Act, just to give you some

background as to what happened here, this is a group of Venezuelan migrants who are detained in Texas. There are rulings all over the country to try to block some of these deportations.

But in the northern district of Texas, that is not the case. So, there was no reprieve for them. Now, they had been told by immigration and customs enforcement, I spoke to some of their attorneys that they were going to be deported under the Alien Enemies Act.

Now, the Supreme Court said that they should have some level of due process in their decision. That happened like less than two weeks ago. But the argument here was that they were going to be deported within 12 hours, 24 hours. And that was of grave concern to the American Civil Liberties Union, who went directly to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court. In that rare move, said at very early, I think one in the morning on Saturday that they could not be deported under this act.

And that's what this all boils down to, is due process. Youve heard it from Democrats, you've heard it from Republicans, you've heard it from the courts that there needs to be some level, some time for people to contest their deportation.

Now, the Supreme Court never defined that. They just said reasonable time, but it's 24 hours reasonable time. We don't have an answer to that yet. And that is what they are contesting here with this specific group Venezuelan migrants.

Now, the other part of this, just quickly, is that the administration asked, can we just deport them under immigration law? That really hasn't been the issue here. Immigration law we've used for decades to deport people.

[08:05:03]

But the Alien Enemies Act is in and of itself just a sweeping wartime authority. It eliminates due process, and it's only been used three times.

RAJU: And we heard one of the conservative justices just out recently, just over the last day, Justice Samuel Alito putting out a dissent, calling this an unprecedented move by the majority of the Supreme Court.

Julie, you've been covering this issue to writing a book on immigration.

What -- how significant of a blow is this to the Trump administration's ability to deport migrants as they see fit?

JULIE HIRSCHFIELD DAVIS, NEW YORK TIMES CONGRESSIONAL EDITOR: Well, I will just say that that book came out in 2019, and we have come a very long way since then. During his first term, President Trump did try to find ways to really aggressively deport people and figure out ways to crack down way beyond what other presidents had been able to or even tried to do. There was talk of possibly using the Insurrection Act.

I think the reason that they turned to the Alien Enemies Act is because it is so expansive, and President Trump and Stephen Miller, who you quoted there at the top, have always thought that, you know, the idea with immigration is that the president has broad power, national security, power to do whatever he wants here. And so that is very much the posture that they're putting forth.

Now, what we saw from the Supreme Court over this weekend was also quite extraordinary. I wasn't as surprised that the groups wanted to go straight to the Supreme Court, because, obviously, they're going to pull out all the stops to try to stop, you know, an action that was very fast moving and these people were literally on busses and, you know, getting put on planes more quickly than they could respond.

But what was surprising was to see that the Supreme Court, you know, took this extraordinary action and stepped in so quickly to really block this. And I think the big question is, will the president feel constrained by this? When the Supreme Court weighed in on this other case of the individual man, the Salvadoran man who lived in Maryland, Abrego Garcia, who has been deported to El Salvador, they said they had to facilitate -- the administration had to facilitate his return. They haven't done yet, that they've very clearly said they're not going to do that.

ALVAREZ: But the caveat, I just want to say, the caveat in that Supreme Court ruling is that they did deference to foreign policy. The Supreme Court did give the administration some wiggle room, and they are operating very specifically in that space.

RAJU: They're almost intentionally vague to some extent.

ALVAREZ; Yeah.

RAJU: But, you know, there were three of Trump's own appointees who voted with the majority opinion there to essentially halt their efforts in using the Alien Enemies Act.

Just listen to how the Trump administration, though, sees the politics of this and how they are viewing this in terms of how their messages to the American people.

This is what Stephen Miller, a top Trump adviser, said just a few days ago.

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MILLER: We've reached a point in American politics where we have one party led by President Donald Trump that fights for Americans, and a second party, I guess, led by AOC that fights for illegal aliens. This is the biggest, sharpest contrast you will ever see between the priorities of President Trump and the priorities of the Democrat Party.

(END VIDEO CLIP) RAJU: They're trying to make this case about Abrego Garcia, not about following the rule of law, following the courts, but about illegal immigration.

TAMARA KEITH, NPR SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Arguing about due process is not as sexy as arguing, these are dangerous criminals who need to be removed from the country. And in fact, when the White House makes those arguments, they are -- they are leaning on where public opinion is, which people broadly support deportation. Americans broadly, not all Americans, obviously, but public opinion is in favor of stricter immigration policy in the United States.

And so that is what the Trump White House is leaning on. And they are trying to make this very black and white, when in reality there is a lot of nuance. But they are saying you support terrorists. They aren't even saying you support immigrants, you support terrorists.

The language is incredibly stark. That is what they're going with. And Democrats are in a tougher position of arguing about due process, arguing about individual cases, getting down in the weeds. And so, the White House feels good about where they are, and they are quite brazen about where they are.

RAJU: I mean, is that a risk for Democrats? I mean, we saw Chris Van Hollen, the Maryland senator, go to El Salvador, meet with the Kilmar Abrego Garcia. Now there's another congresswoman going, Maxine Dexter of Oregon, announced that she is going as well.

Is that a risk politically for Democrats to lean in so much on this issue?

ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: I mean, the question is whether the Democratic leaders can simultaneously be for tough immigration standards and for upholding the Constitution in the way that, they say, it needs to be upheld. This is a -- J.D. Vance tweeted earlier this week what process is due to this man? The answer is due process, is in the Constitution.

And the -- as this goes forward here, you see the White House being -- not just with Stephen Miller's comments, but that tweet from the White House on Saturday that showed a photo of the man's knuckles that had been photoshopped to put an MS-13 tattoo on it.

RAJU: But that's a Trump -- that's a Trump post on Truth Social.

[08:10:01]

DOVERE: Sorry. And but it was White House -- it was the White House didn't do.

What I think was notable about it is they didn't even try to make it look real. There is a an effort here to just say, we're going to do what we want. We're going to say that this is the way it is. You know, there are people who could use A.I. or photoshop or all things that I'm not the best skilled at to make those look like real tattoos, but they're just putting it out here to say were doing it in the way. On Friday, there was the other post where they corrected a "New York Times" headline saying, this man is never coming back.

There is a stance of open defiance of what the Supreme Court is saying.

I mean, look, look at the reason why is you talked about public opinion -- just look at what the CNBC poll had about Trump's handling of deporting illegal immigrants. To the question there, 52 percent still approve. He's still in a majority support on this issue, which, of course, has been his central issue that he's campaigned on since he came into power.

ALVAREZ: And the reason that they're having to lean on these authorities, and the reason that all of these moves seem so extraordinary is because the U.S. immigration system is so dated, they literally can't do what they want to do if they don't do these brazen things.

And so that is what -- and they are banking on public opinion, staying on their side. And frankly, as they cast everyone that they're sending as really bad guys, they hope that they can continue to bring that with them. But as you dig into these stories, is where you start to see that when you do brazen acts like this, there is a level of messiness and sloppiness.

And the only reason we're talking about Abrego Garcia is because of that sloppiness by the administration last month.

DOVERE: And you see in some of the polls that, yes, those numbers overall hold, but questions about whether to deport somebody who's married to an American citizen, those things get way --

RAJU: A lot of changes.

DOVERE: And look to Priscilla's point, I think also the Alien Act that we're talking about is from when John Adams was president, right? Now, it is I think a --

RAJU: Has been used three times since before Trump did it.

DOVERE: Right, and I think it's a window into a lot of what were likely to see out of the Trump administration over the years ahead, which is looking at laws that are on the books.

RAJU: Yeah.

DOVERE: Much like the Electoral Count Act of 1887 was there, and nobody thought to use it until January 6th. Right. And so, there are all these other things that the administration can draw on.

RAJU: I mean, they've been using emergency declaration after emergency declaration. Just look at eight that Trump has used since he came into office. Two, compared to Biden in that same time period, that was not really a normal thing. But he's been doing that to try to push the boundaries of federal law. And the courts, to some extent, have been pushing back.

We'll see how that ultimately plays out. So much more to discuss.

And coming up next, Trump and DOGE have gutted one federal agency after another. And now, there's a report that the State Department could be next.

Plus, the vice president spent the morning at the Vatican for easter mass. Was a meeting with the pope in the cards?

And later, I'm speaking with Democratic Congressman Jason Crow about what his party is doing to try and win again.

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[08:17:19]

RAJU: New this morning, Vice President Vance met with Pope Francis. The brief meeting the Vatican says was an opportunity to exchange easter greetings.

Now, the high-profile meeting between the Catholic VP and the leader of the church comes in the aftermath of the pope's criticism of Trump's deportation policies. And as the U.S. seeks to dramatically change its footprint in the world, just as top Trump officials spent the last few days overseas in talks over Ukraine, Iran and tariffs, "The New York Times" reported this morning that a draft executive order by the Trump administration would dramatically overhaul the State Department.

My panel is back.

So, this is a pretty significant executive order that Trump may sign. It seems like its not entirely clear where the timing and all the rest, but it seems to be moving in that direction. Just look at a few of the points on the screen from the times story this morning, eliminate operations across Africa. Shutting down bureaus focused on democracy and human rights issues, ending the foreign service exam for aspiring diplomats. This is dramatic.

DAVIS: Yeah, it really is. And it is, in a way, if you read the story, I haven't seen the order. My colleagues have seen it. But if you read that story, you can really see the contours of what we've seen from the Trump administration over the last few weeks and months, which is they are really trying to reshape. Obviously, we talked about domestic policy, but foreign policy and really just kind of reorient everything, turn the ship around. I mean, basically pulling out of Africa, except in specific areas where they decide its strategically important to be at a given time.

The foreign service thing is super interesting, because what they've decided apparently, is that they don't want people to be generalists, generally schooled in foreign policy and strategy. They want them to be specialists in a region or specialists -- and specialists across the board on national security, not necessarily diplomacy, right?

So, it's -- it's just a totally different approach to our posture to the world. And I think it -- if it goes into effect, it is going to have a major influence. And, you know, some of these policy moves that we've seen from the president, certainly the ones through executive orders, seem like they could be very sort of ephemeral and fleeting and maybe go away once he's gone. But if these things take hold, I think it would take quite a bit to unwind the impact of that. I mean, it's turning off a lot of very core United States foreign policy functions.

RAJU: And that, on top of shuttering USAID. I mean, Julie's right, the impacts could be long lasting beyond this presidency.

KEITH: Yeah. And I will say that I've had multiple sources share this draft memo with me, but all of them have said this is unverified. I've checked with the White House. They have not yet gotten back to me.

So that's where my reporting is. It's not fully fleshed out, but certainly this is a dramatically different -- if this is real, it is a dramatically different approach to sort of the soft power of the United States.

[08:20:09]

It also leans toward sort of loyalty tests for people who continue with the State Department and, and just essentially putting a Trump stamp on one of the more essential parts of the U.S. government and the U.S. face to the world. But -- but as Julie says, add this to the Department of Education, add this to USAID, add this to all of these shifts. If President Trump succeeds -- yes, these are all executive orders, and they can be undone. This -- this draft E.O. calls for Congress to then ratify it through its budget process.

But this would be hard to unwind or rewind or this will change the U.S. government. All of the -- the -- essentially, President Trump is changing the U.S. government in a way that will not rapidly be undone by whoever the next president.

RAJU: Yeah, whether it's shutting, shuttering federal agencies, getting rid of career officials and making it easier to fire career officials who do not heed to his demands as they moved forward on an executive action on that over the last couple of days, as well.

But then there's also the discussion about what the administration is doing to deal with some of these conflicts overseas. Remember Trump along in the campaign trail, said repeatedly that Ukraine, the war in Ukraine would be over. Hed be able to negotiate a settlement within 24 hours of negotiating it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: I will have the horrible war between Russia and Ukraine totally settled. I'll have it done in 24 hours.

MARCO RUBIO, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We need to figure out here now, within a matter of days, whether this is doable in the short term, because if it's not, then I think we're just going to move on.

TRUMP: If for some reason one of the two parties makes it very difficult, we're just going to say you're foolish, you're fools, you're horrible people, and we're going to just take a pass.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, we'll see if the negotiating tactic or not. But going from "24 hours, this will be done", to "we're just going to take a pass".

ALVAREZ: I mean, in some ways this is classic you campaign on one thing. You go into government, and it's a whole other thing because it takes a long time to do things like ending a conflict. But, you know, there was some movement on this in February when the president had spoke with the Russian president, when he met with the Ukrainian leader in the Oval Office. As you are showing images there.

But this has been -- this is a complicated endeavor. But what has been clear over the course of all of it is that President Trump doesn't want it. He doesn't want to have to deal with it.

The messaging from Trump administration officials has also changed. You're hearing less about it was Russia's fault. You're hearing it was Ukraine who started the war.

I mean, these small messaging, the changes in rhetoric matter here because that is what's going to shape public opinion ultimately. On an issue, by the way, that President Biden, when he was running until he wasn't, was using this as a way of -- of trying to showcase his foreign policy chops. People didn't really care.

RAJU: Yeah, that was his first campaign ad. That's remarkable to remember. Great. Great point.

But also, how the Republican voters view Ukraine. Just look at the Pew research poll from the end of March. Just 25 percent of Republicans are concerned about Ukraine being taken over by Russia.

DOVERE: I mean, it's stunning and it's stunning to think about. This is the party that was the party of Ronald Reagan. But that is very much the party of Donald Trump now. And actually, I think one of the best examples of that is Marco Rubio himself, and how he has altered in his stances on many foreign policy issues since becoming Trump's secretary of state.

RAJU: USAID, Russia, you name it.

DOVERE: I mean, I'll read to you when we're talking about the changes coming potentially at the State Department and eliminating the -- a lot of what the U.S. does in Africa with the intention of pulling back against what China is doing with its, it's road and -- what's it called, the belt -- and belt and road. Sorry. And all the strategic interests.

Here are two letters that Marco Rubio signed when he was a senator. One, we stand ready to work with you to counter growing Chinese influence and protect U.S. interests in the Horn of Africa and throughout the continent. He sent that to Rex Tillerson when Tillerson was Trump's first secretary of state. And another one U.S. leadership can make an enormous difference. And

we believe the department of state can and should lead a diplomatic effort now to reduce the political barriers that are hindering the delivery of food to millions of starving people.

RAJU: Wow, wow.

DOVERE: That is not what Marco Rubio is talking about now. And -- and I think here is another example of how you see not just the change in the party, but the change in all of this is flowing out of the White House. It's not coming from the department.

RAJU: Yeah, this is Trump driving it. And some of those views appear to be malleable.

DOVERE: It seems.

RAJU: All right. Next, I go one on one with Democratic Congressman Jason Crow. He's got a new job helping recruit Democratic candidates to run in 2026.

[08:25:00]

So, what is his plan to take back the House?

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RAJU: Democratic voters have been demanding that their leaders in Washington take a firmer stand against Trump.

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UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The silence from the majority of the Democratic Party is madly deafening right now.

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RAJU: The fear among many Democrats, are they employing the right strategy against Trump, or will they bungle their chance to regain power in next years midterms?

Well, to help answer some of those questions, I'm joined by Democratic Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado, who sits on the House Intel and Armed Services Committee, and he's a new co-chair of candidate recruitment for the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.

Mr. Crow, thank you so much for joining me. I want to -- before we get into the midterms, I want to get your take about the news of the day on this case involving Kilmar Abrego Garcia. Of course, he was the one who was deported to El Salvador. The administration said it was a mistake.

The administration alleges he's a member of MS-13. His attorney denies that. And while an immigration judge in 2019 said he should not be deported, he did enter the U.S. illegally in 2011.

I want you to listen first to what Gavin Newsom said about this case.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): This is the distraction of the day. The art of distraction. It's exactly the debate they want, because they don't want this debate on the tariffs. They don't want to be accountable to the markets today. They want to have this conversation. Don't get distracted by distractions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Is he right? Is this a distraction? You guys are, well, distracted by?

REP. JASON CROW (D-CA): Listen. I wouldn't use the word distraction because this is a real man with a family. He matters. You know, Mr. Garcia matters as an individual, as a human being.

But what's more is that this larger issue of denial and trying to distort the truth. The truth is there was no due process in this case. The truth is the Trump administration has no evidence that this person is a criminal, that he's involved in any gang activity.

They continue to double down because what they are trying to do is distort the truth over and over. You know, their philosophy is you tell a lie over and over and over again until it becomes true. That is right out of an autocratic playbook. That is what makes this so dangerous.

So, Mr. Abrego Garcia matters a lot, and we should try to get him back, do everything possible. But we also need to be focused on the fact that this administration is trying to lie and bend the truth so people lose sight of what reality actually is.

RAJU: So, I mean look, we know how immigration played in the last election in 2020 for the -- I'm wondering just we're talking about the sheer politics of this. Is it the right move politically for the Democrats to go all out defending what happened to Kilmar Abrego Garcia, given the fact that he did enter the country illegally?

CROW: Do you know what I think the right thing politically to do is, is actually just do the right thing, right? If we do the right thing and we defend people, if we defend the innocent, if we defend our democracy, the politics tend to take care of themselves.

I learned when I first ran for office that we can spend all this time thinking about what is the right political thing to do. And frankly, I think that's one of the reasons why the Democrats have lost elections in the past is because we're always thinking about what are the politics of it, right?

So let's just do the right thing. Let's defend the innocent. Let's try to get this man back to his family. Let's also enforce our immigration laws. Let's make sure we have a secure border. Let's get criminals off our streets. You know, we have the ability to do all of those things. RAJU: I want to turn to the other news of this morning. That was this

news of a potential executive order that could come out. "The New York Times" reporting about the State Department potentially being gutted by this, changing how they are dealing with the U.S. footprint around the world. This came in the aftermath of USAID being effectively shuttered.

I assume that you are opposed and concerned about what's happening here. We're a politics show INSIDE POLITICS. Foreign policy generally is not an issue that voters really are motivated when they go to the polls.

You -- foreign aid also is something that a lot of voters are skeptical of. How should your party respond to this and should this be a central issue that you guys fight back against?

CROW: Well, you know what I learned as an army ranger. I served three combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. What I can tell you with complete certainty is that when we pull back from the world, when we isolate ourselves in the world, and we cut aid programs, when we cut programs that prevent people from starving to death, when we cut programs that prevent disease from spreading, Americans are less safe. History shows that, without a doubt, right.

So what I'm concerned about when I think about those men and women who we will send into harm's way to keep us safe, they will be far less safe and less able to do their job if we cut back on these essential State Department programs.

But what's more is you can't tell me the Trump administration can't sit here and tell me this is about government efficiency. They cannot say that.

Now listen, I'm about government efficiency and there's plenty of programs that can be cut and reformed and made more efficient. But this administration is about to have $1 trillion Defense budget while they're cutting very small programs at the State Department that do incredible work.

[08:34:45]

CROW: They're about to pour money in the Department of Defense, a department that can't even pass an audit. A department that is vastly inefficient and wastes tens of billions of taxpayer dollars every year while they are doing things to advance their culture war that essentially are a rounding error in the Department of Defense budget.

RAJU: It sounds like it's something that you do believe that Democrats should fight back against.

But I want to ask you about what you're dealing with as well, which is the midterm elections that are -- they're a ways away. But this is a key part right now trying to recruit candidates.

The map, though -- this is a pretty small battleground that you'll have to pick up seats to try to flip the House. Compare that to what happened the last time you guys took the House back in 2018. There were many more Republican seats that you could pick up.

25 Republicans in districts that Hillary Clinton had won back then, compared to now, there are just three Republicans in districts that Kamala Harris won in the last election. And you have to defend 13 Democrats in Trump-won districts.

Given the narrowness of the playing field, and given what you heard from some voters who are frankly frustrated that Democrats in Washington are not doing enough, how challenging is this going to be to flip the House?

CROW: Well, we're going to be extremely aggressive. It is possible that it will be a narrow battlefield, but it's also very possible it's going to be a large battlefield, right. If what happened nationwide is what happened in Florida just a few weeks ago, you know, we're looking at dozens of more seats in play.

But we're not going to take anything for granted. Nothing is going to be taken for granted here. We're going to fight everywhere, on every front, in every race. Light blue seats, regular seats, you know, dark red seats -- we are going everywhere. We are going to flood the zone on our own and take the fight in every corner of America, because that is what I believe we need to do to win.

RAJU: And we've seen a lot of the energy on the left. You know, AOC, Bernie Sanders having this these massive rallies right now, probably more than anybody else in your party. Do you think they are the right faces for your party right now?

CROW: What I -- what I love about the Democratic Party is that we are an ideologically diverse big tent party. I don't want to be the lockstep party of Donald Trump, right? The Republican Party as we knew it, as I grew up with, is dead now, right? It's just simply the party of Donald Trump.

They have no ideology. The only thing they're concerned about is what Donald Trump tells them to say.

RAJU: Speaking of --

(CROSSTALKING)

CROW: But we are not that, right. So I welcome the fact that we have a huge tent of folks that represent the broad diversity of this country. That is who we need to be.

RAJU: Speaking, though, of the ideological battle, there is that playing out in Democratic primaries. In fact, the DNC vice chair, David Hogg, announced that his organization is going to spend $20 million to boost candidates against other Democratic candidates in -- who he calls ineffective Democrats in safe Democratic seats. Is that helpful for your cause for these primary fights to play out?

CROW: I'm somebody that believes that we do need the next generation of leadership in the Democratic Party, and that is why I've taken on this recruiting role to bring that next generation into the fold and reinvigorate the party.

RAJU: But --

CROW: At the same time -- at the same time is what I, I know to be true, I absolutely know to be true is that Donald Trump doesn't care about our protests. Donald Trump doesn't care about what we have to say.

Donald Trump cares only about political power. And to yank and to pull political power from Donald Trump, we need to flip red seats. We need to flip seats that Donald Trump and Republicans won.

RAJU: So that is --

CROW: I am laser-focused, laser-focused on flipping seats. He is dismantling this democracy and attacking Americans with lightning speed. And we have less than 18 months to win these seats.

RAJU: Focus on those seats rather than these Democratic primaries.

CROW: That is my relentless focus. We are -- we are out of time. There's no time left. We have to focus on those seats.

RAJU: Speaking of -- we are out of time here. But I do have a quick question for you, because Michael Bennett, it sounds like he is running for governor. If he wins that, there will be a vacant Senate seat. Is that something you're interested in?

CROW: I am laser focused on winning those seats and protecting our democracy. I am going where the fight is. I always go where the fight is. And right now the fight is winning those seats and saving America.

RAJU: All right. Well, I guess that's a question we'll have to ask you again. Mr. Crow, thank you so much for coming in. Fellow Wisconsin Badger, perhaps your most important title. Badger in my opinion. Yes, indeed.

All right. Coming up next, new reporting on the Democratic squabbles playing out as they recruit candidates for the Senate in 2026.

Plus, there's a new blockbuster race on the horizon. Trump ally Elise Stefanik is considering a run for New York governor. But would a fellow Republican member of the House challenge her? I have new details on what he told me.

[08:39:20]

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RAJU: Four -- that's the magic number of Senate seats Democrats need to pick up in 2026 if they want to take back the majority. It may not sound like a lot, but when you look at the map, there just aren't many pickup opportunities as they defend seats in difficult states like Georgia, Michigan and New Hampshire. To win the majority, they'll have to expand the map. But our Isaac Dovere is out with new reporting this morning highlighting the challenges playing out as Democratic leaders woo recruits to run in critical races.

Isaac and the rest of the panel are back with me now. So Isaac, what did you learn?

ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: Look, this is a multiple level crisis that the Democratic Party is going through. And it's playing out in these Senate races even this early out. I know were in April of 2025. These are races for the 2026, in November.

But where the party can actually compete outside of the bluest territories, what the party stands for -- these are the questions that now really start to take shape around who these candidates are going to be.

[08:44:50]

DOVERE: And as you point out, they need four seats to win the majority. That means holding that seat in Georgia, which everybody knows is going to be tough, every Democrat knows. Winning two seats in Maine and in North Carolina, their best prospects. Both states that have disappointed Democrats over and over again. And then finding another seat in deep red territory.

So I talked to people for this article up on our site in Kentucky, in Kansas, in Alaska, in South Carolina, Mississippi. People are thinking there is some way to do this, but it's certainly a reach.

RAJU: Yes. That's very much of a reach.

But there's also this debate within the Democratic Party, and there's concerns about the Democratic primaries. We talk about Republican primaries a lot, but there are Democratic primaries that could be problematic too.

Michigan could be one of them. Mallory McMorrow, who is a Michigan state senator running in that -- for that open Senate seat told Isaac said for too many voters in Michigan who narrowly elected Donald Trump, they didn't know what the Democratic Party stands for. This is a huge opportunity for us to write a new Democratic Party and really put a stake in the ground, show through our races what the new party can look like and sound like and act like.

A real -- it's a real ideological fight within the Democratic Party.

TAMARA KEITH, NPR SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Right. And one person's opportunity is another person's massive challenge that they don't really have a solution to just yet.

But that's what primaries are about. That's what elections are about, is sort of fighting out the identity of a political party, because there isn't a presidential race for some time.

RAJU: Right. KEITH: This is going to be figured out by individual candidates and by primary voters.

RAJU: And there are some key recruits that are still pending out here too. Roy Cooper being one of them in North Carolina, a Democrat. Will he run against Thom Tillis? We'll see.

Janet mills, the Democrat there considering running. We'll see if she runs against Susan Collins. That would be a blockbuster race as well. Brian kemp on the Republican side. Could he run against Jon Ossoff? All big questions that could really dramatically change the map.

I do want to turn to another possible primary here. And this is the New York governor's race. We heard this past week, Elise Stefanik, who was -- who was the Trump's pick to be U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations, pulled back because of concerns it could impact the House majority now considering running for New York governor.

But Mike Lawler, the sitting Republican congressman from New York, also had been considering running. So I asked Lawler, I said, what do you think about Stefanik running? And would that change your view at all?

He called her a powerful leader in the House. He said that they both agree that Kathy Hochul, in their view, is the, quote, "worst governor in America".

But this is what else that he said. He said "In 2026, New Yorkers have a chance to elect a strong, competent leader to move the state in a better direction." He went on to say, "In the coming months, the process will play out to ensure that Republicans have the strongest candidate possible."

It doesn't sound like he is dissuaded by Stefanik considering a run.

JULIE HIRSCHFELD-DAVIS, NEW YORK TIMES CONGRESSIONAL EDITOR: It doesn't, but it does sound like he's keeping his options open, right? It's not at all clear that if she really decides she's going to jump into this thing, that he's going to jump into it as well.

If they both did, it would be an incredibly interesting contest. Here you have two members of the House. She is -- was elected as a moderate, you know, very, very much sort of like a centrist Republican and has completely gone MAGA. She's very close with Trump, obviously a huge ally of the president.

And Mike Lawler is very much in the middle of the party. He's running in a district or is in a district representing a district that's very competitive. He's tried to stake out some really centrist ground.

So that would be a real sort of struggle between those two poles of the party at a time when clearly the MAGA strain is the much more powerful one in the Republican Party.

RAJU: Can a MAGA Republican win in New York statewide? PRISCILLA ALVAREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I think we're about to find out. I mean, but to the -- to the point of Isaac's article too, there -- because in this moment of inner party fighting with the Democrats, it does allow for these other strains to take hold.

DOVERE: I started out as a reporter in New York -- the last time a Republican won a governor's race in New York was 2002. A lot has changed since then, but Kathy Hochul is not the strongest candidate it doesn't seem going forward here.

RAJU: Yes. That's going to be quite a race. We'll see who actually ultimately decides to run.

All right. Next, a year and a half after he was expelled from Congress, former Congressman George Santos -- well, he's about to be sentenced on federal fraud charges. So how much time could he spend behind bars? Would President Trump pardon him?

[08:49:02[

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RAJU: Would you acknowledge, though, fabricating large portions of your life? So why did that -- I'm just wondering people want to know why. Why did he do it? But why? But why?

GEORGE SANTOS, FORMER NEW YORK REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN: Manu, Manu -- I've already told you this. It's insecurity. Stupidity.

I don't know. Look. I'm human. We make mistakes. I've apologized and I will continue to apologize profusely for this. And with remorse.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: That was former Congressman George Santos back in November 2023 shortly before he became just the sixth House member ever to be expelled.

Now, almost a year and a half later, the New York Republican is set to learn on Friday how much time he could spend behind bars on federal fraud charges.

The Justice Department is pushing for a prison sentence of more than seven years, saying just a few days ago that Santos quote "remains unrepentant for his crimes".

Now, Santos, meanwhile, has asked for the minimum sentence of two years. And despite telling reporters like me many times that he had done nothing wrong and was completely innocent, Santos ultimately pleaded guilty last summer to charges connected to his 2022 midterm campaign, and he was ordered to pay $373,000 in restitution.

[08:54:49]

RAJU: Now on his podcast this month, Santos spoke with blogger Perez Hilton and said this when asked about a potential presidential pardon.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PEREZ HILTON, BLOGGER: Would you ask Trump to pardon you?

SANTOS: You bet your sweet -- I would. Of course, I'm going to ask.

HILTON: Have those conversations begun.

SANTOS: I have not talked about this publicly for obvious reasons. But let's just put that were exploring anything we can to, you know, ameliorate the blow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, I asked the ex-congressman yesterday whether he was optimistic a pardon might happen, or if he's gotten any indications one was coming.

Santos told me, quote, "I did not petition for one. I have not engaged in conversations with anyone. I'm sticking to myself."

That's it for INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. You can follow me on X @mkraju. You follow the show @INSIDEPOLITICS and follow me on Instagram @manu_raju.

If you ever miss an episode, just catch up wherever you get your podcasts and search for INSIDE POLITICS.

Up next, "STATE OF THE UNION WITH JAKE TAPPER AND DANA BASH". Dana's guests include Senators Chris Van Hollen and Amy Klobuchar; as well as House Majority Whip Tom Emmer.

Thanks again for sharing your Easter Sunday with us. We'll see you next time.

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