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Inside Politics

Defiant Hegseth goes on Fox to Defend Himself, Attack Critics; Fired Pentagon Adviser Denies Hegseth's Claims of Leaking; GOP Representative Don Bacon Says Hegseth Should Resign or be Fired; World Mourns Pope Francis as Process of Picking Successor Begins; IMF Slashes Global Growth Estimates Because of Tariffs. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired April 22, 2025 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Today in "Inside Politics", disarray at the Department of Defense. Defiant Pete Hegseth says he's not going anywhere. The White House insists the president remains behind him, and for now, the defense secretary's protests seem to be placating President Trump. Will it last?

Plus, fresh warning signs this morning about the Trump trade war sparking a global recession. As the value of the dollar dives and investors across the world question the stability of American markets. And last words, we're getting new details from the Vatican about the pope's final hours, while dozens of cardinals make their way to Rome to begin the process of choosing a successor.

I'm Dana Bash. Let's go behind the headlines and "Inside Politics". Pete Hegseth is fighting for his job with more questions being raised about his judgment and confidence. This morning, he followed the standard Trump playbook for responding to a scandal. A friendly interview on Fox defiance, lashing out at his critics and, of course, the media.

But what makes this different and complicated is that his so-called critics, people who were fired, are conservatives and longtime friends. And the issue at hand is whether he is careless with sensitive military information. I want to get right to CNN's Jeff Zeleny at the White House, Jeff, the president spoke about this again this morning.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: He did, Dana. And as of now, the president is standing by his defense secretary. That does not mean, however, there is not deep concern behind the scenes. So, this is why it is a day-by-day situation here. I mean, I cannot think of another personnel matter that has caused this much consternation, at least in this second term of this president.

It's very much more reminiscent of the first term of the Trump Administration. But there is no question that the Defense Secretary went on Fox News this Morning, not only speaking to the audience of one, but comparing himself to the president as well.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you think there's a lot of people don't want you there, and there's some type of steep deep state forces that want to make sure you don't stay there.

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: They've come after me from day one, just like they've come after President Trump. I've gotten a fraction of what President Trump got in that first term. What he's endured is super human.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: But the question is, will the defense secretary be super human, at least politically speaking? I mean, there are many examples, really, they're mounting of the top officials at the Pentagon who have been either dismissed or have left on their own, because what they are seeing unfolding at the Department of Defense.

So, this is what is really a day-by-day situation. Yes, the president is supporting him right now, but that's always the case he is until he isn't. So, we shall see how this plays out. But the president expended a significant amount of political capital to get him confirmed. It was by one vote of course, that's why he's not going to be a dismissed, just a lightly.

But the bottom line is, there is frustration among the president's advisers here at the White House in the west wing, and we will see how this plays out going forward, Dana.

BASH: Jeff, thank you so much for that reporting. I appreciate it. And I'm joined here by a terrific group of reporters, Zolan Kanno-Youngs of "The New York Times", Leigh Ann Caldwell of Puck and Ramesh Ponnuru of "The Washington Post". Hello everybody. Nice to see you. I just I can't get over the Pete Hegseth line about the deep state.

I think that this is important to repeat over and over again, and I'll put up on the screen. These are not people you recognize, nor should you, but these are the people who were fired by Pete Hegseth for allegedly leaking. These are not members of the deep state, whatever that means.

These are conservatives, card carrying conservatives, Maga and also old friends of Pete Hegseth, whom he put in there. I want to play a quick sound bite from one of the individuals I just showed his name is Dan Caldwell.

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He actually went on with Tucker Carlson to defend himself and to deny allegations against him, and then you'll hear Pete Hegseth on the other end. Sorry, I'm told we do not have that. I'll read it to you. Tucker Carlson asked Dan Caldwell if he was the leaker of classified information. Caldwell said, absolutely not. If I actually did some of the things that anonymous people on the internet and in the Pentagon are saying I did, I'd be in handcuffs. And then Hegseth, also on Fox, said, once a leaker, always a leaker, and we will do an investigation, which is probably where this is going right now. But just knowing that and understanding that's what's really going on with these people.

What are you hearing from your sources about the big question at hand, which is the fate of Pete Hegseth?

ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: When it comes to Pete Hegseth, I think those around the president and the president in many ways, he's -- he serves as an example of sort of how he made up this second -- this administration, the second time around, in a way, prioritizing loyalty, somebody who would go and defend him on TV.

And I think for now, firing him or disciplining him would be viewed by those close to the president and the president as a capitulation to the criticism around this news. And possibly undermining the central message that he had when making up this cabinet, which is that it was prioritizing merit, firing somebody for some of the things that we've seen disarray amongst in the Pentagon, the Signal chat news.

That doesn't really back up a merit-based cabinet, one that prioritized merit. So, at this point, I think they're digging their heels in. But look this saga does cut through something the administration has been trying to portray here, which is that this is a more disciplined Trump Administration this second time around, and in many ways, it is than the first round.

But news like this, officials leaving loyalists, also leaving the Pentagon as well, good friends of Pete Hegseth, as you said, leaks, op-eds, by a former top spokesman, as well as this Signal chat, plus you also have other errors in other news, admitting that a deportation was an error in court, IRS shake up. None of this speaks to a disciplined administration the second time around.

LEIGH ANN CALDWELL, CHIEF WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT OF PUCK: Well, Pete Hegseth, the three people that you showed on that screen, they were removed from their jobs. Then you have Pete Hegseth, chief of staff who was placed in a different position. All of this paints a picture of what was written by the former spokesperson of the Pentagon earlier this week in another publication POLITICO, that it is just chaos at the Department of Defense.

Now, Pete Hegseth was sent there to shake things up, to get rid of DEI to -- as he says, bring the Pentagon back to a war fighting posture. But Pete Hegseth seems overwhelmed, paranoid and unable to control what is actually happening inside the Pentagon.

RAMESH PONNURU, EDITOR OF NATIONAL REVIEW: Well, he wasn't chosen for his management experience, and that was something that the senators talked about. I mean, it was one of the key issues in his confirmation hearings. He was chosen for his ability to be a good spokesman on TV for his combativeness, and we're seeing the tradeoffs involved in that right now play out in real time. The problems have arisen because of the lack of management experience and the lack of judgment, and the solution that he is finding is going on TV and combatively defending himself, I think so far, that that's going to work, particularly when you combine it with two other things.

One, military recruitment continues to be strong, and that's something that the administration can point to as a real triumph. And two, the investment that a lot of Republicans made in him is so recent.

BASH: I'm so glad you brought that up, because that's really what I want to get to, next, which is, you know, Jeff talked about the political capital that the president spent. So did Republican members of Congress, obviously, mostly the Senate, those of whom -- who -- those who voted for him to confirm Pete Hegseth, but we are -- we saw a little bit of a crack.

This is Don Bacon, who said to "POLITICO" yesterday, I'm not in the White House, and I'm not going to tell the White House how to manage this, but I find it unacceptable, and I won't tolerate it. I wouldn't tolerate it if I was in charge. Now, Don Bacon, for those of you who watch "Inside Politics", probably know he is one of the most vulnerable House Republicans.

So, you know, he has a very moderate district to tend to. And then the majority of what we are seeing now is from Republicans. If they are coming out, they are coming out to defend Pete Hegseth. Markwayne Mullin, who was somebody who helped Hegseth get confirmed said, quote, I will lead the breach.

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I will lay down cover fire. I will take the high ground. I will expose myself to enemy fire to communicate. We must bring back integrity focus and put the war fighter first DOD, I stand with Pete Hegseth. That is another hallmark of Trump 2.0 which is different from Trump 1 which is the Don Bacon's of the world used to be much more prominent the first time around, people who were very willing to criticize Trump on the Hill inside his own party.

And so that's one of the other things to sort of look for is whether or not there are any cracks when Congress comes back. They are on vacation.

KANNO-YOUNGS: Right. Do you see more signs of dissent here, which really hasn't been a story of the second administration. You do remember first Trump Administration, so many scenes of reporters chasing members of Congress through the halls, asking them for a question.

Members of Congress at times, yes, revealing a comment that would be critical, not all the time. It just isn't the case this time around, and I think it speaks to more broadly, an erosion of some of the guardrails around this administration and just how emboldened this White House is. I mean, they know they have a tight grip on the party as well as Congress, and that means of accountability really have been eroded at this time. PONNURU: I suspect that Mitch McConnell does not regret his no vote, at the moment. But if you're a Republican Senator who voted for Hegseth with misgivings and you do not like what you're reading about, what is the calculation you're making? You're probably thinking to yourself, if I speak out against Hegseth, it is more likely to cause trouble for me than it is to cause trouble for Hegseth.

BASH: Yeah. I mean, just think about what Lisa Murkowski said last week, that's words worth a lot. Up next, the Vatican is releasing new details about Pope Francis' final moments and moving final words to his personal nurse. We're live from St. Peter's Square, next.

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BASH: Right, now, a mass is underway at St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York honoring Pope Francis. That's being led by Cardinal Timothy Dolan, who is expected to be part of the conclave voting on Pope Francis' successor. Meanwhile, at the Vatican, the first official full day of mourning continues.

Pope Francis' open casket has been laid at the Casa Santa Marta residence where he lived during his papacy. The public lying in state will begin on Wednesday. President Trump and the first lady are among the many world leaders already planning to be at Saturday's funeral service.

CNN's Christopher Lamb is in Rome. Christopher, thank you so much for being here. What are we learning about Pope Francis' final moments?

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Dana, what we have learnt today is that the pope, before he made that final appearance on Easter Sunday. On Easter Sunday, he turned to his personal health care assistant personal nurse, and said, do you think I'm going to make it? And he was unsure about making that final appearance in St. Peter's Square.

I was in the square watching it happened. It was clear the pope wasn't well, but the response was really electric from the people. Of course, Francis was a pope for the people, a people's pope in many respects, and he wanted to make that final visit to see people in the square. And at the end, he told his nurse, thank you for giving me that final moment, or that moment in the square.

And then the next day, we're told that around 05:30 a.m. the pope fell ill. He made a final gesture of farewell to his nurse and died peacefully, Dana.

BASH: Wow. I mean, just absolutely incredible. And then when it comes to the funeral, what else are we learning about how that will play out?

LAMB: Well, tomorrow, the pope will be transferred from the Casa Santa Marta to St. Peter's Basilica behind me to lie in state. And then the funeral of the pope will take place on Saturday. Now, the last time there was a funeral for a serving pope was 20 years ago by the funeral of John Paul the second and that event was attended by a huge number of heads of state visiting dignitaries.

And we're expecting a similar number of heads of state to be here for the funeral. President Trump, of course, is coming with his wife, who is Catholic, and of course -- and also expecting President Zelenskyy of Ukraine and other leaders for what is going to be an historic send off for Pope Francis, Dana.

BASH: Christopher, thank you so much for your amazing reporting throughout all of this. And joining me now is CNN Vatican Analyst and Senior Correspondent for Crux. Elise Allen, thank you so much for being here. Just staying on the subject of Pope Francis' funeral. One of his final acts was to simplify papal funeral rights.

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We see some of that more modest personality that we've been hearing so much about, even in the coffin and the tomb that is being chosen. How will that make this papal funeral different?

ELISE ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Well, thank you, Dana, you know, it's going to be very Franciscan, in the sense that it's going to be very much in the style of Pope Francis, who prized that simplicity you were talking about from the very beginning. He appeared very simply in his white attire, without all the extra robes, you know, his simple white cassocks and his black shoes, to his simple greeting to the people you know, of one of the good evenings.

You know, he was a simple man at the heart, you know. And so, it's unsurprising that we're seeing that reflected also in his final goodbye to the world and in his entombment here in Rome. So, you know, as you mentioned, there's going to be a simplified right. Even he is laying in state, he's not going to be on a raised platform during that or in the funeral.

He's going to be sort of level people will be able to see him, perhaps not inside of his coffin, as well as they would be otherwise. His coffin is going to be a little different. Normally, there's a wooden coffin inside of a metal coffin and a lead coffin, I believe, is the metal that's traditionally used.

And then another wooden coffin, Francis has said, just a simple wooden coffin with a zinc lining. It's much simpler. It's how he prefers to be laid to rest. And then, of course, his tomb is not going to be in the grottoes of St. Peter's Basilica, as has been the case for every one of his recent predecessors.

He's going to be buried in the papal Basilica of St. Mary Major, which was so very dear to him during his life. And he's going to have one simple inscription, which is Franciscus, his name in Latin so simple from the beginning to the end.

BASH: And let's quickly look ahead to the conclave. It is one of the most diverse conclaves that we will see in the history of the church. Pope Francis himself appointed four fifths of the cardinals who will be a part of that conclave. What will that tell us about who will be chosen next? Because obviously there are a lot of questions about whether or not the next pope will be as sort of liberal minded as Pope Francis was.

ALLEN: You know, I wish I had a straight answer for you to that question. I think that's the big mystery of this conclave, you know, is that Pope Francis so many of the cardinals that he appointed are from unknown places. They're from distant, faraway places, what he would call the peripheries of the world.

Cardinals who perhaps don't make it to Rome very often due to the distance and the costs involved, you know. So, it's there are many personalities. There are many cardinals that are not known to those who are here in Rome or to their up the other cardinals, frankly, who are in other of those remote areas of the world.

You know, so, the pre conclave meetings that are going to happen the general congregations are going to be a very important opportunity for these guys to sit down and get to know each other, because anything could really happen, we -- a lot of these guys are mysteries to themselves and to us.

So unfortunately, it's hard to pinpoint what exactly they are going to choose and who they're going to look for. I think initially, they just have to get to know each other first, and anything is really possible.

BASH: Yeah, that we can't just assume, because Pope Francis appointed the majority of the cardinals who will be meeting, that they will continue the traditions that he was so passionate about through who they choose. Thank you so much. I'm sure we will be talking a lot with you over the next week, weeks to come, I should say.

And up next, the Trump trade war could slow the U.S. economy to a crawl, and that may be the best-case scenario. We are looking at Trumponomics, after the break.

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BASH: Today, there is a rebound on Wall Street. The markets are up nearly 1000 points, recovering somewhat after another brutal sell off to start the week. But it is not all good news for the economy. This morning, another flashing red warning light. The International Monetary Fund threw out its global economic predictions from before President Trump launched his global trade war.

The new forecast a slowing global economy and worldwide trouble with inflation, all because of the president's tariffs. And investors are obviously spooked. The bond market is down and the dollar is doing worse than it has in years. Look at this "The Wall Street Journal" headline, it put the stock market's recent drop in context.

The DOW headed for Worst April since 1932 as investors send no confidence signal. My smart reporters are back, Leigh Ann.

CALDWELL: Yeah.

BASH: I mean, it's hard to I mean, yes, it's very good news that the stock market is back up, but one day does not a recovery make and all of these other warning signs are very serious.

CALDWELL: Yeah. And part of the challenge, and maybe the problem, is that I hearing from sources is all of this was self-inflicted.

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