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Inside Politics

FDA Says It Will Phase Out Petroleum-based Food Dyes; CDC Warns Foodborne Illnesses on the Rise in the U.S.; Trump Unlikely to Fire Hegseth, but White House Officials Troubled by Disarray Among His Top Aides; Trump Slams Ukrainian President Zelenskyy in New Post; Democratic Senator Durbin Announces He Will Not Seek Re-election. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired April 23, 2025 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00]

DR. MARTY MAKARY, FDA COMMISSIONER: Them doing this on a voluntary basis within the time frame, because if they can do it as they say, within about 18 months, we don't need to go down the road of statutory and regulatory changes. We are prepared to do that.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT AND ANCHOR OF 'INSIDE POLITICS': Got it.

MAKARY: -- and we're reviewing all of those.

BASH: Dr. Makary, I do want to ask about something that happened at the NIH rather, last week. Dr. Kevin Hall, who is a top researcher on this issue, ultra processed foods, he quit because he says he experienced censorship under RFK. What is your response to this criticism? And more broadly, how concerned are both of you about losing somebody who is so focused on the issues that you care so much about, which is finding out about these ultra processed foods?

MAKARY: Well, I don't know that individual. I understood that he resigned. I think there are some people who, when they are resigning, are taking some cheap shots. Look, Republican, Democrat, independent moms turned out to vote for President Trump on this very issue that Secretary Kennedy has championed. So, I think we need to recognize getting petroleum-based food dyes is not a silver bullet. It's not going to instantly convert America's kids to being a healthy generation. But it's one step and there's a lot of unity around this individual topic.

BASH: Vani?

VANI HARI, CREATOR, FOODBABE.COM: The leadership that we have had from -- the leadership we have had from President Trump has been extraordinary. I was a two-term Obama delegate, and now President Trump has invited us here to the White House for this moment. It is absolutely incredible to be here, standing on this lawn under this administration, to talk about these issues that I've been fighting for, for over a decade. This is something that has been the culmination of so many voices out there. And now, American moms are not going to have to worry about the frosting on their birthday cake, the chips and the sports drinks being served on the soccer field, the cereals being served in schools, and their Easter basket. I mean, it's extraordinary what's going to happen. I mean, as a mom, it is a struggle to feed my child safe and healthy food every single day. And now, that is one step closer because that is really the root of our chronic disease epidemic. Food is medicine.

MAKARY: Always listen to the moms. That's what I learned, taking care of kids as a doctor.

(LAUGH)

BASH: That's a very --

MAKARY: And we're just asking -- we're just asking companies to do for American kids what they are already doing for European and Canadian kids, replacing the petroleum-based dyes with healthy, natural ingredients. And we're authorizing four new natural ingredient flavorings.

BASH: It's a very good policy to listen to moms. As a mom, I endorse that.

(LAUGH)

BASH: Dr. Makary, I do want to ask, you said that you're not familiar with Dr. Hall, which I understand, it's -- he's at the NIH. You're very focused on the FDA. Somebody who was at the FDA, who left before you were confirmed, his name is Jim Jones. He oversaw food and nutrition policy at the FDA and he said he was resigning because his work was compromised by thoughtless cuts at the FDA. Both he and Dr. Hall, what they're saying again, is that they're excited about the MAHA movement, they're excited about food safety goals. But, is your ability to make meaningful progress stunted because the personnel are no longer in place to accomplish your goals with all of these cuts?

MAKARY: No, Dana, and I'm glad you asked because all the cuts were limited communications staff. You would not believe the number of communications staff at the agency, redundancies in IT and in legislative affairs and lobbyists from the FDA to the Hill. There's been a fiefdom culture and we're now eliminating redundancies and consolidating those services. No cuts were made, there were no layoffs to scientists or food inspectors. And my job as commissioner coming in after those cuts is to make sure that the scientists and inspectors have all the resources they need to do their job well.

HARI: Dana, I just want to add one point. I met with the director of U.S. Foods, Jim Jones, a week before the inauguration, and me and several other advocates met with him with a laundry list of very important topics. And he did not seem to have the sense of urgency that Secretary Kennedy and the FDA commissioner standing here right by my side has about these issues. So, honestly, I'm glad to see him go. I think this is good for this organization because we need -- we are in a dire crisis when we look at the chronic disease rates, how we spend the most on healthcare, but we have the worst health outcomes. This is a do or die moment.

BASH: So I just want to underscore what you're saying, both of you, but particularly you, Dr. Makary, is that when it comes to the safety of Americans food, it will not be compromised by the cuts that the administration is making at the FDA.

MAKARY: That's exactly right, Dana. You're going to see some cheap shots from an individual that takes the early retirement offering. And they might say, well, look, we're concerned -- we're leaving because of safety concerns. But I can tell you there were no cuts to scientists or inspectors, and my job is to make sure that we're doing our job well.

BASH: So --

MAKARY: -- in a more efficient way.

[12:35:00]

Any discussion of cuts, Dana, has to mention that the FDA has doubled its number of employees since 2006. The headcount has increased by a hundred percent. And so, that's the important context when we understand how to make the organization more efficient.

BASH: So for example, according to the CDC, foodborne illnesses are on the rise in the U.S. You're going to continue to inform people when there are outbreaks of foodborne illnesses?

MAKARY: Yeah, I think we're going to be more efficient because when you have over a hundred communication staff, you lose that sense of owning the delegation of responsibilities. And that's our challenge. These transitions are never easy and the cuts are never perfect, but I think we're going to be stronger for it. And I do believe in the scientists and inspectors at the FDA.

BASH: Before I let you go, Dr. Makary, because I have you here, there have been at least 873 cases of measles reported in the U.S. this year. Do you believe Americans should get vaccinated?

MAKARY: Look, Dana, I believe vaccines save lives and any child who dies from a vaccine preventable disease is a tragedy.

BASH: So, should parents vaccinate their kids?

MAKARY: I believe in the MMR shot.

BASH: OK. We will leave it there. Dr. Makary, Vani Hari, thank you so much to both of you for being here. This certainly is a very big development at the FDA. Appreciate your time.

MAKARY: Thanks so much.

HARI: Thank you so much.

BASH: And when we come back, do Senate Republicans have Pete Hegseth's back? I'll talk to a Republican member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, who has warned in the past that the defense secretary can't make any more mistakes.

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[12:41:30]

BASH: Today is President Trump's 93rd day in office. Those 93 days have been spent undoing as many of his predecessor's policies as possible as he promised, dismantling wide swaths of government as he promised, and launching a volatile trade war as he promised. Not to mention leveling new threats on allies and adversaries alike.

Joining me now to talk about all of this is Republican Senator Kevin Cramer of North Dakota, who is a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee. Thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it. I do want to start though, with Senator -- with Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. Senator, you voted to confirm Pete Hegseth and when that first Signal chat that Hegseth was part of became public, you said this. You said, "It has got to be the last time something this big and dumb happens." Now, we now know that he texted military operation plans in a separate Signal chat that included his wife and his brother. Do you still have faith in Secretary Hegseth?

SEN. KEVIN CRAMER, (R-ND) ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Yeah, Dana, I do. And thank you for the opportunity. I do have faith in him. And I think the episode that you're referencing was actually prior to this most recent one. And I would hope that he's learned, I'm confident he has. I'm confident that Pete Hegseth can still be and will be a great secretary of defense. He's going to need some help around him. I think one of the things he has lacked in the early days is some real expertise, institutional expertise in the building. And that's part of why he's there, is to bust up the club a bit.

But I think the monster that is the Pentagon is -- was a bigger monster perhaps than he even thought. So, I think he's doing fine. I think he's going to be an excellent secretary, but we may need to put some help around him that's reliable, that's stable, and that's not so contrary to him being there.

BASH: Well, that's really interesting because, so far, the people who have been fired, the people who have left --

CRAMER: Yeah.

BASH: -- are not sort of longtime members of what many people in your party call the deep state. They're people who are card-carrying conservatives, and some of the people who were there, who were fired, have been longtime friends of his. So, to what are your -- or to whom are you referring when it comes to the people who have not been around him who are not supportive enough?

CRAMER: Yeah, so it's not just a matter of being supportive of him, it's the interagency rivalries that he's bumping up against. And there are some of those people that are good friends of his, are also bumping up against. Now, to his credit, I think it is a real strength that he is willing to investigate and even fire close friends when they're suspected of doing things that are unsafe to our men and women in the military. So, that's really, I think demonstrates his commitment to the job and to his own priorities. So obviously --

BASH: Who do you think needs to get in there? Forgive me, who do you think needs to get in there?

CRAMER: Yeah, well --

BASH: Can you name names, or at least the kinds of people?

CRAMER: Yeah. Well, I can give you some -- the kinds of people. I used the word institutional a little bit ago, and I think it's important. You can, on the one hand, be in disruptor and we like disruptors and Pete Hegseth certainly is one. Donald Trump is one. I talked to the president only about an hour ago about this very situation.

[12:45:00]

And I think though at the same time, when you're going into the belly of the beast, it doesn't hurt to have some of the beasts organisms on your side and to know how to -- nothing else, just maneuver the place, to be able to navigate the landmines and some of the rich traditions, some of which serve us well and some of which have not served us well.

So, I think there are some people, I certainly have some in mind that I think would be helpful to Pete and I think we should not resist so quickly people who've been part of the establishment, if you will, for a long time. It takes a mix and I think that's what you're going to see shake out, ultimately, in this entire administration.

BASH: You spoke about this with the president an hour ago? Were you giving him recommendations or --

CRAMER: I did.

(LAUGH)

CRAMER: Well, I'm -- let me put it this way. I started out by giving him my full support and suggesting and my commitment to helping Pete Hegseth be the most successful secretary of defense in history. And that's what I want to do, because I think he has that potential. I think that the (inaudible) will love him. I've talked to a number of them just in the last couple of days, in fact, who really like the mission, particularly the domestic mission and the border mission.

But at the same time, there the world's on fire and it demands American leadership in a big way. And I think that he could use some of that help. And so, my commitment to the president was that -- and then -- and then just -- I said, let's have a further conversation about what types of people and what roles they could play.

BASH: I do want to ask about something that the president talked about just a short while ago, talked about on social media. He talked about Ukraine, and what he was discussing was the idea of the Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy writing -- excuse me. What the president wrote was about Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Here's what he said, "That Zelenskyy is harmful to the peace negotiations for Zelenskyy to say that Ukraine will not recognize the occupation of Crimea."

Now, this post that I'm referring to, which just happened, this comes as the Secretary of State skipped the Ukrainian peace talks. Vice President Vance says it's time for Ukraine and Russia to agree to a U.S. proposal or for the U.S. to walk away from the process. Are you comfortable with this approach?

CRAMER: Well, I like most of my colleagues on the Armed Services Committee, first of all, we recognize that this war was not started by Ukraine. It was started by an aggressive dictator in Russia named Vladimir Putin. That's a given. We also acknowledge, I think for the most part, that if we are to get a peace deal, President Zelenskyy is going to have to give on some of these issues, particularly the territorial issues.

But we should never take our foot off of the throat of Vladimir Putin. Clearly, we need to do more to bring him into compliance as well as President Zelenskyy. I think it's harder with regard to Ukraine and President Zelenskyy, because they are our friend. They are our ally. They're a democracy. And yes, they have some grand opportunities to partner with the United States.

BASH: But it sounds like he's trying to move away from the talks altogether.

CRAMER: Yeah. Well, that would be -- we don't -- I don't think we want that. And I don't think that President Trump wants that. He wants peace more than anything. In fact, if anything, President Trump has been so laser focused on stopping the killing that he's been anxious to have a deal. And I think there are some people in Ukraine who don't want just any deal. They want their country back, and that is noble and understanding.

So, I don't want to get in the middle of the negotiation because I think when the president speaks, when the vice president speaks, they're speaking to a lot of audiences, both friend and foe, and it's -- I think it's a delicate balance right now. But I'm committed like he is, and I think like President Zelenskyy and President Putin are to ultimately to some piece that stops the killing. That's what we have to have on all sides.

BASH: Senator Kevin Cramer of the great state of North Dakota, thank you so much for being here. Appreciate it.

CRAMER: Thanks. Thank you for the opportunity. Always a pleasure.

BASH: And up next, a staple of the Senate Democratic leadership. Four years, says he's retiring to make way for a new generation of leaders. The latest from Capitol Hill next.

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[12:53:50]

BASH: Democratic Senator Dick Durbin made a highly anticipated announcement. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DICK DURBIN, (D-IL): The decision of whether to run for re- election has not been easy. I truly love the job of being United States Senator. But in my heart, I know it's time to pass the torch.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Senator Durbin is currently the second highest ranking Democrat in the Senate, serving as the Minority Whip. CNN's Lauren Fox joins me now and he has been in that role as the number two, for, I mean, how many years, Lauren? So, the question first is about the leadership and then more broadly, what it means for the Democratic Party.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. He has been the Democratic Whip since 2005, so two decades, Dana. And clearly, this is a huge and monumental move. He's the fifth Democrat to announce his retirement, but in many ways, because of his significant leadership role in the Senate, this opens up a major moment for Democrats at large to decide about their party's future leadership.

Already, we are looking at a couple of key names of people who may try to replace him as the number two Democrat when he retires in a couple of years.

[12:55:00]

And we expect that that could be anyone from Brian Schatz, Cory Booker, Amy Klobuchar, Patty Murray. Those are some of the names that have already been floated. And then there's this other question of who is going to take his Senate seat. And again, this could be a really expensive Democratic primary. It's a huge opportunity for someone, perhaps like the Lieutenant Governor in Illinois, Juliana Stratton. Perhaps other house members may be interested in this, including Raja Krishnamoorthi or Lauren Underwood.

So those are just a handful of the names who could get into this race, but it really does present this larger question of who is going to fill this huge void. He's been so active on the Judiciary Committee in the Senate. He was a key sponsor of the DREAM Act many, many years ago. Immigration, a very important issue for the Senator, in addition to so many other things that he's touched in the United States Senate. Dana?

BASH: Definitely an institution. Lauren, thank you so much for that. Thank you for joining "Inside Politics." "CNN News Central" starts after the break.

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