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Inside Politics

Trump Digs In After Week Of Political & Legal Setbacks; How Will Rubio Balance Two Top National Security Roles?; GOP Amps Up Trump Impeachment Talk in Midterm Battle. Will They or Won't They? Democrats Make 2028 Moves; Conclave to Elect New Pope Set to Begin on Wednesday; GOP Retirements Could Help Democrats Tip Balance of Power. Aired 8-9a ET

Aired May 04, 2025 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[08:00:45]

MANU RAJU, CNN HOST (voice-over): Doubling down amid political and legal setbacks. And with car prices set to jump, President Trump stays the course.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is a transition period.

Maybe the children will have two dolls instead of 30 dolls.

RAJU: But is the chaos of his presidency coming back to bite him?

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think he can make a good argument that it's promotion.

RAJU: Plus, third rail, as progressives weigh another impeachment of the president.

REP. ALEXANDRIA OCASIO-CORTEZ (D-NY): We should never take impeachment off the table.

SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): That's just dumb. I mean, that's -- that's not going anywhere.

RAJU: My new reporting on Trump's concerns and why he's laser-focused on holding the House.

And papal politics.

TRUMP: I'd like to be pope.

RAJU: The posts and jokes as we go inside the secretive process to pick the next pope.

INSIDE POLITICS, the best reporting from inside the corridors of power, starts now.

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RAJU (on camera): Good morning and welcome to INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. I'm Manu Raju.

President Trump planned a victory lap this week to mark 100 days back in the White House, but much of that was overshadowed by several key setbacks, including a major staffing shakeup in the White House.

National security adviser Mike Waltz ousted, moved to a new role and yet another position added to Marco Rubio's plate as his influence grows in the administration. Then there were the major legal roadblocks when a Trump appointed judge ruled that the president unlawfully invoked the 1798 Alien Enemies Act to quickly deport migrants whom the White House alleges are gang members, and another judge permanently blocked his order to punish a law firm that represented Hillary Clinton.

And this morning, fears of a recession as new auto tariffs kick in amid new news that the economy contracted in the first quarter.

So, let's break this all down with an excellent panel this morning. "Politico's" Dasha Burns, Zolan Kanno-Youngs of "The New York Times", and Anna Palmer of "Punchbowl News".

Good morning to you all. Thank you for being here.

Let's talk about this big news of the morning, which is this auto tariffs that are kicking in about 25 percent import tax on most auto parts coming into the United States. It could average, according to CNN analysis, about $4,000 per vehicle. And that's not the only tariff about to kick in others, certain packages that are under $800 are now subject to U.S. tariffs. Also, many Chinese goods, Americans could soon feel the impact.

Dasha, you cover the White House. Weve been hearing time and again there's going to be a deal. There's going to be these trade deals. They have not come out yet.

What is happening behind the scenes?

DASHA BURNS, WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF, POLITICO: Yeah, I mean, we heard from Peter Navarro that they could do 90 deals and 90 days, and we haven't seen one yet. Behind the scenes, they are working on this. They've got Secretary Scott Bessent as the driving force here, which has been a relief to a lot of folks on Wall Street. They see him as an adult in the room. He has a lot of street cred on Wall Street.

But they need to get a deal done because that is what so many of these both -- both voters and Wall Street and the stock market is waiting for, they have to show something.

RAJU: Yeah. And that's what Republicans are clamoring for, too. They want something to be announced.

But look, there was some good, positive job news over on Friday saying that the job jobs were about 185,000 new jobs in the month of March. However, there was also bad news that the economy contracted in the first quarter. We learned that last week, in no small part because of Donald Trump's tariffs and his economic policies. Another quarter that means that we are in a recession if we see the economy contract again.

So, is Trump concerned about a recession? Well, he was asked about that in an interview airing this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: There are many people on Wall Street say this is going to be the greatest windfall ever happened.

KRISTEN WELKER, NBC NEWS ANCHOR: And that's my question, long term. Is it okay in the short term to have a recession?

TRUMP: Look. Yeah, everything's okay. What we are -- I said this is a transition period. I think we're going to do fantastically.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: So not concerned about a short term recession.

ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: We also have to remember that the economy in many ways is what got Donald Trump elected.

[08:05:02]

This was a primary issue for voters.

You square comments like that in that interview, as well as another interview he did with ABC News, almost indicating actually people did vote for me, and trust me with this issue.

Put that up against his comments during the campaign that he would bring down prices on day one and coming into office, he set high expectations for immediate change on this issue. And now it comes as there's a lot of anxiety and economic frustration forthcoming with these tariffs as well.

You're going to continue to see the administer -- the president and his top aides try to reset expectations here for voters coming. But if consumer prices continue to go up, I mean, that could lead to real backlash at the White House.

BURNS: That expectations -- resetting is happening a little bit too late. I mean, one of the things that I heard from his advisers is they were trying to get him to lower those expectations a little bit sooner, to explain to his voters what they're trying to do, that there might be some short-term pain. They're starting to use that language now. But that is not how he messages either on the campaign trail or in the Oval.

RAJU: That didn't make it on the bumper sticker short term, but just maybe in a few years, things will be great.

ANNA PALMER, PUNCHBOWL NEWS CEO & CO-FOUNDER: Well, and he's still trying now to say that this is actually Joe Bidens economy, right? I mean, this is -- that is -

RAJU: At what point is it his?

PALMER: Right. I mean, at what point does he own it? And I think when you and I speak to Hill Republicans, they're very concerned about what is happening here. If there's another quarter where the country GDP contracts, this patience that we've seen and kind of the willingness of Republicans to go along with Donald Trump on Capitol Hill I think gets to be much, much harder.

We already saw it with this tariff rebuke, 49-49 almost lost. It was a messaging bill.

RAJU: They should have lost, but they were two absents.

PALMER: Right. But for that, they would have lost. And I think that is just a showcasing that where Trump is on tariffs and the economy is not where congressional Republicans are.

RAJU: No question.

And look, that's not where the American public is either. I mean, you look at poll after poll and there just really is nothing that is less popular than his tariffs. I mean, every single poll essentially bears that out, that they are among his most unpopular policies.

Look at just this impact of Trump's tariff policies on your personal finances -- 59 percent of Americans say it hurts. And then you drill down into the numbers about you break partisan breakdown among voters. Republican voters, okay, 64 percent. Yeah, that's above average. Sure. That's -- that's certainly a clear majority.

But independents which, of course, independents determine elections, 58 percent of independents have a bad opinion of Trump's tariff policy.

BURNS: Yeah, those numbers are not good and not certainly what they wanted to be talking about around 100 days. Youve heard them try to push on the immigration message. I mean, one of the things Trump did say on the campaign trail, and he said after he felt like immigration was even more important than the economy.

So, they're trying to keep the conversation focused. They're trying to keep Democrats talking about that as well, which they've had some success with. But ultimately, once people start feeling this in their pocketbooks, which is starting to happen, that's -- that's where the rubber meets the road.

RAJU: Yeah. No question about it. I do want to turn to the other news of this week. This was the big staffing shakeup, probably the biggest of Trump 2.0 happening in the White House. Mike Waltz out as the national security advisor. That was in the aftermath of the Signal controversy. Of course, there's going to be a whole host of other issues that ultimately led to his ouster. Trump then nominated him to be to be the next U.S. ambassador to the United Nations.

Now, Marco Rubio is playing a much bigger role in this administration. They add another title to his plate, this one being interim national security advisor. What are you hearing about the impact of this decision? What do you think the implications will be?

KANNO-YOUNGS: Well, so for one on Mike Waltz, yes, there was Signal gate, but as you noted, just to take a step back there, there were other concerns in the administration and in Trump circles about him.

BURNS: Long time coming.

KANNO-YOUNGS: That's right. That's right. Him being too hawkish, not aligning with this Trump foreign policy issue that Marco Rubio in the last several years seems to have really pivoted on and align himself with this Trump vision.

I mean, there is some concern, I know in national security circles, the national security advisers, at times the mediator between the competing priorities, between the diplomatic circles as well as more national security priorities. Now you have one person essentially doing both of those roles. So, who is going to be the person that can mediate between those diplomatic circles and national security circles?

But for Marco Rubio, it is an emergence. I mean, how many times does he have at this point, USAID archivist as well.

RAJU: And you're reporting that this is -- this is going to be a long term thing, potentially.

BURNS: Yeah. The White House wants this to be, if not permanent, minimum six months and potentially long term. They feel like he has the kind of loyalty, the sort of team player aspect that Susie Wiles in particular the chief of staff finds to be incredibly important. And he has set aside a lot of his long-held views in favor of what -- what the Trump agenda is. And they feel like that is a show of goodwill and something they want to rely on. Now, a very heavily.

PALMER: Yeah. I mean, I think when you look at it, what's interesting is how close is Marco Rubio flying to the sun, right?

[08: 10:04]

I mean, he is now going to be the tip of the spear when it comes to the Middle East. Theres going to be a big trip that's happening. When you look at what's happening in Israel. I mean, can he juggle all of these multiple priorities?

And I think probably personally bite his tongue because where the Trump policy is, is if you look back historically, it is not where Marco Rubio's philosophy when it comes to foreign policy, when it comes to a lot of different things.

RAJU: I mean, but why are they giving Mike Waltz a soft landing here? I mean, if he is in the doghouse with Trump.

BURNS: Well, this is -- this is the big difference --

RAJU: Making him the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations.

BURNS: This is the big difference between Trump 1 and Trump 2. They do not want the same drama. The palace intrigue, the firings, like it took a long -- Mike Waltz was on thin ice for a long time. It took a while for them to move him out of that role, A, because they didn't want to give the media a scalp in the wake of Signal gate, and B, because they don't want to be seen as a sort of chaotic team. They want --

RAJU: Good luck with that.

BURNS: Right. No.

PALMER: I mean, but the other thing is to actually get into that position, that's a Senate confirmed position. Yes. That means -- I mean, if this actually moves forward, that the Senate is going to have some very tough questions about what it is, it's hard to see that Republicans would continue to vote for him. I think it gets really tricky, really fast.

KANNO-YOUNGS: Firing in some ways was seen almost as a sign of strength that Trump circles in term one. This time around, I've heard from folks that have viewed it as a capitulation almost to media coverage, to the critics of the administration, Democrats as well.

One thing for sure, the economic news is something they didn't want at the 100-day mark. This kind of staffing shakeup is something they also didn't want.

RAJU: So, one other thing is, before we head to break, there was news about a military parade that Trump plans to. They're just discussing an Army parade hosting on the Army's 250th birthday, which is on June 14th, which happens to coincide with Trump's birthday, which is also on June 14th.

This could cost tens of millions of dollars. This big, massive parade at a time of DOGE. Why?

PALMER: He loves a parade.

(LAUGHTER)

BURNS: He loves some pomp and circumstance. I mean, this is -- this is classic Trump like, Anna, you --

PALMER: I mean, I think when you look at this, what's interesting here is he has really pulled away from having advisers who have military experience. But he loves the pomp and circumstance and the idea that there would be a military parade. It goes into all of his biggest kind of trappings of what Trump likes.

KANNO-YOUNGS: There is a risk there when you're spending taxpayer dollars, though. You mentioned DOGE when you've also lost all these federal jobs.

PALMER: Let's put on a show.

RAJU: Exactly. Have a massive parade, and we don't have the price tag yet. We'll see. But it's estimated in tens of millions of dollars.

All right. Still ahead, Democrats are split on impeaching President Trump a third time. My new reporting on why the president is now fixated on that possibility.

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[08:15:08]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: How concerned is he about impeachment if the Dems take the majority?

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Well, we've already seen this one. They've already tried it twice. I'm certain they would try it again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: President Trump won't be on the ticket in the 2026 midterms. So GOP leaders are discussing ways to turn out the MAGA faithful.

One way to do that talk up the prospects that Trump could be impeached for a record third time if Democrats take back the House, even though Democratic leaders are so far wary of doing so. By new reporting this morning with my colleague Sarah Ferris details how Trump and GOP leaders are plotting their midterm strategy, trying to woo key candidates, including Governor Brian Kemp for a Georgia Senate run.

But not all Republicans think the strategy of talking up a potential Trump impeachment is enough to win.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): If the Republican campaign message in the midterms is vote for House Republicans and vote for Republican candidates for Senate to stop the Democrats from impeaching Trump, the American people are not going to care because they've seen that show twice. And it didn't matter. It won't work.

RAJU: Uh-huh?

GREENE: No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Excellent panels back.

I mean, look, midterm elections, as we know, are typically very painful for a party in power. We have problems with the economy. Concerns about Trump overreach. Democrats are very confident that things will change next November.

However, this is a small map. This is a battleground where very few districts are truly at play. There are only three Republicans in districts in which Kamala Harris won, which is perhaps why they want to figure out ways Republicans do to animate the base and win a potentially close election here.

Look at how they talk about impeachment polls historically among the American public. The Trump first Trump impeachment, just 51 percent of Americans thought there was not the way to go. Clinton impeachment 65 percent of Americans at the time did not think it was the way to go.

Even Nixon was, they were moving down that road, 51 percent thought it was not the way to go. It was a different during the after January 6th. A majority voters view it that way. That was a different situation, of course.

However, that explains to you why they're trying to amp up the base. What are you hearing about the way that Trump and the Republicans are viewing their chances in the midterms?

PALMER: I mean, listen, I think they're concerned. Obviously, the economy is going to be the biggest issue. It was certainly in the last election. And Republicans are concerned that they're going down this road of tariffs. What is the policies that they're going to be able to do, especially when you look at doge cutting jobs kind of across the country.

But this impeachment issue, I think is red meat for the Trump base. This is something that would galvanize his base to get them out, get them into rallies. This is the kind of fighting mode that Trump likes, and the idea that Democrats are so out of touch. And that's why I think you really see leadership in the Democratic Party saying like, hey guys, no, this is let's not talk about this.

RAJU: Let's talk about the economy as well. But what was interesting that -- it was there was a one of the most vulnerable senate Democratic candidates, the Senate Democrats, Jon Ossoff, in a rally back home, just a town hall a couple of weeks ago.

[08:20:03]

He was asked about impeachment. He suggested that Trump and his actions on this cryptocurrency venture suggested that perhaps that's enough for an impeachable conduct, or at least an investigation into it. I asked him about those comments that he made.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JON OSSOFF (D-GA): It appears that the president's business and family are being personally enriched through this cryptocurrency venture. That kind of misconduct, I think, exceeds virtually any prior standard for that kind of inquiry in the House.

RAJU: It's hard to separate the politics. Republicans are already going after you on those comments. Do you think you'll become an issue in your campaign?

OSSOFF: Oh, I stand by those comments 100 percent.

OCASIO-CORTEZ: I mean, we should never take impeachment off the table. We should never take where we see law breaking. We should never take accountability off the table.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: That's the tension between what the Democratic leaders want to talk about and what a lot of members say that they need to hold Donald Trump, what they say, accountable for going beyond the Constitution.

KANNO-YOUNGS: It is attention. You know, on one side, you have this concern. And the Democratic Party around them being too cautious and pulling their punches against the Trump administration and really almost a yearning mostly on the progressive base for accountability. But on the other side, too, you've had really an inconsistency of what to focus on when it comes to that message.

Do you hone in on DOGE efforts on the economy, on tariffs, on immigration, what have you? And, and, and we're seeing the collision of those two sources of anxiety here, those that want the party to focus on the issues and those that actually see an opening for real accountability. What's absent in all of these conversations, though, is actually putting forth a consistent agenda, a consistent plan that you can rebut against the Trump administration here.

RAJU: Can I ask you just about Trump's mindset as we head into the midterms? We're hearing that he's probably going to do a lot of rallies, endorsements. He's very focused on trying to keep the House. What do you what's your expectation of his involvement in the midterms? Because, look, Democrats actually would be happier if he was on the campaign trail.

BURNS: They would. And he loves nothing more than being on the campaign trail. Right. He loves those rallies and comments like that. What you just played, that is exactly what Trump and his team want to hear.

He does best when he's embattled, when he's pushing against something, when he can -- can play the victim and say that he is being targeted. You saw what happened with his numbers. They're looking back at when that first indictment came down and how suddenly he was in the wilderness.

And then he became the center of gravity for the political universe, and really used that and turned it into a galvanizing moment for him. If Democrats continue on this train, you better bet they're going to try to do the same thing, whether it'll work or not. Thats the question.

RAJU: In meantime, there's a big effort to try to get some key candidates in the race. We've heard Brian Kemp, the governor of Georgia, John Thune, the Senate majority leader, flew down to Atlanta over the Easter break, tried to did meet with him and Kemp's wife. Also, other senators have been in touch with him.

We heard that Trump himself had a conversation with Kemp back in February about the Senate race. There were no commitments made that we were hearing, but could -- given that Kemp did not overturn the election in 2020 and became the whipping boy for Trump for so long, could Trump get behind someone who would be the biggest recruit for the Senate GOP?

PALMER: I mean, what we're hearing from the Trump team is they don't need MAGA acolytes. They need to keep the majority, right? And I think there has been kind of a truce or a, you know, kind of a willingness to work with John Thune, who clearly wants Brian Kemp to be the candidate. I think the big question here is, you know, does Brian Kemp mean what, governor, have we ever seen that likes to go into the Senate? The answer is literally zero.

RAJU: Yes, exactly.

PALMER: So does he is, you know, he looks at what he's been doing in this state there, you know, being able to be the number one kind of, you know, officeholder in chief to going to the Senate and dysfunction here in Washington. It's a hard sell, I'm sure to be made.

RAJU: And if he says no, that would be a huge black eye for the GOP, certainly, given this push.

I do want to turn to another story about Senator John Fetterman. First, I want to show you what he said to me about all this debate, one about how some on the left are calling, saying that we should rail against an oligarchy, that the United States is being run by an oligarchy. And then two, about some on the left calling for impeachment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Calling it an oligarchy, what do you think? Is that a is that smart politically?

FETTERMAN: Well, I think the vast majority of people may have to like Google what that is.

RAJU: Some of these guys on the say that if you do get the majority in the House, impeachment should be part of the equation.

FETTERMAN: That's -- that's just dumb. I mean, that's -- that's not going anywhere. I mean, it's been done twice.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: So this all came in the afternoon before the story was reported in "New York Magazine" about John Fetterman's mental health, because he's been very public about his struggles with depression and the last year. But this is a new story that just came out on Friday.

The headline all by himself, John Fetterman, insists he is in good health. [08:25:00]

But staffers past and present say they no longer recognize the man they once know. We have reached out to Fetterman's office for comment.

Fetterman did say to "The New York Magazine", he denied that there was anything that was amiss, and he felt like the best version of himself. You interviewed Fetterman in the '20 when he ran, when he won his first campaign. What's your reaction to this? Can he survive questions about whether he can continue in office?

BURNS: I mean, I think the biggest takeaway for me from that story was the lack of transparency. And that was what I initially pushed for in that first interview was like, we need to really try to understand what is going on, and that's what voters deserve. Thats what his constituents deserve. And I think that was the biggest takeaway for me is the amount of sort of obscuring that, that his team has, has had to do as he has worked through some of these challenges.

PALMER: Yeah, I mean, I think we -- I think there's a couple of things here, right? As long as he continues to go and do interviews and he's engaging with the press, I think that that kind of tamps down some of the at least public concerns. You did have a couple of his colleagues, both Republicans and Democrats, Senator Welch, Katie Britt defending him, saying they hadn't noticed any of these -- these challenges as well.

And so, I think, you know, obviously kind of the Senate, famously, they protect their own.

RAJU: Yes.

PALMER: But this is going to be a thread that, you know, he and his staff are going to have to figure out how they're going to answer, because now that this story has run, there's going to be a lot of follow up.

RAJU: And in the subsequent election cycles, when he's up for reelection, will he run? Will he face primary from the left given that he has emerged as this anti-left voice within the Democratic Party? All big questions in the weeks ahead.

All right, coming up, some big name Democrats are making a splash in New Hampshire, South Carolina and Pennsylvania. Who's testing the 2020 waters? What they're telling voters, that's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:31:21

GOV. ANDY BESHEAR (D) KENTUCKY: So if I'm somebody that can Bring this nation together, hopefully find some common ground, that's something I'll consider.

GINA RAIMONDO, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF COMMERCE: If I think there's a big way for me to serve again, including running, I'll do it. GOV. WES MOORE (D) MARYLAND: I am not running.

JOY BEHAR, TV HOST: You're not.

MOORE: I'm not running.

BEHAR: You're saying that. You're saying that for sure?

MOORE: I'm not running.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MANU RAJU, CNN HOST: All right. Will they or won't they? From Raimondo to Pritzker, to Buttigieg, Beshear and more -- big-name Democrats are testing the waters ahead of 2028, making a splash in early voting states. And as we just heard, coming up with well, their own creative ways to deny or not deny, whether they're running in the first place.

My panel is back.

So ok, so Wes Moore says he's not running. And then he goes to announce that he's going to South Carolina, with Jim Clyburn, which tends to be a kind of an important primary state.

ZOLAN KANNO-YOUNGS, "NEW YORK TIMES" WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Clyburn not a kingmaker --

RAJU: No, no, no.

KANNO-YOUNGS: -- when it comes to these types of things. I mean, every potential candidate has to say that publicly at this time. We're so early at this point.

But these conversations are happening in Democratic circles, you know, and these names, including many that you just highlighted, are being floated. You have folks that are going and meeting, for example, with the chair of the Democratic Party in New Hampshire and asking him about fundraisers that will be happening soon.

You have a trip like that to South Carolina. All of that is to test the waters, really get some of the money going as well for any potential candidate.

RAJU: Before you jump in, I want you -- everyone, to watch what a former senator, you may have seen him before. You may have heard of him, said back in 2006.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I will serve out my full six-year term. You know, Tim, if you get asked enough, sooner or later you get weary and you start looking for new ways of saying things. But my thinking has not changed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But -- so you will not run for president or vice president in 2008? OBAMA: I will not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: I will not.

ANNA PALMER, CEO/CO-FOUNDER, PUNCHBOWL NEWS: Well, he wasn't until he did. Yes.

But to me, I think what is more emblematic of this is just the hole at the top right now.

DASHA BURNS, WHITE HOUSE BUREAU CHIEF, POLITICO: Yes.

KANNO-YOUNGS: Yes.

PALMER: I mean, there is such a void. There's nobody to go up against Donald Trump. You have a kind of, you know, you have Chuck Schumer, who's dealing with his own internal party politics, his New York state politics.

You know, Jeffreys trying to kind of, again, figure out his leadership. This is to me, everybody is not only testing the water, but it's also who is going to have the strongest argument and actually be able to litigate the case against Donald Trump.

BURNS: Because there's no messenger and no message right now.

KANNO-YOUNGS: Right.

RAJU: And look, and speaking of messenger, a message we've seen Gretchen Whitmer, the Michigan governor deal with getting some blowback from working with Donald Trump.

She was on "Pod Save America" this past Thursday. She defended her presence at the Oval Office. She said, I have not abandoned my values.

Then she said she's open to working with Trump, but she's also very open to candidates going after, attacking Trump. What do you think about her trying to straddle that middle line?

When we see someone like J.B. Pritzker going after Trump, calling him a, quote, "madman".

BURNS: I've been saying that Democrats and Republicans, they are playing completely different games. Like they're not in the same genre.

Republicans are like playing Grand Theft Auto. Democrats are playing Mario Kart. Like they're just, you know, like it's just completely different universes and they haven't figured out.

Like the photo of Gretchen Whitmer to me in the Oval says so much because it is this, like, I'm there, I'm working with him. But I got the binder in front of my face, like, which way are you going to go?

Are you -- an opposition party or are you trying to be moderate and to -- and to engage with voters that might support President Trump?

[08:34:54]

RAJU: I mean, I just can't see the base being ok with someone -- maybe I'm wrong. They want someone to fight, you know? Well, can this middle ground approach -- maybe that's good for a general election, but can it work in a primary in this political environment?

PALMER: It's tough to see, right? I think that Democrats I mean, we saw this, right, you know, in a much more smaller microcosm when Chuck Schumer decided to keep the government open. I mean, the base went crazy because they want someone to go up.

They say, you know, this is -- we're not in a normal environment. This isn't a time for Republicans and Democrats to work together. This is the time for Democrats to stand up. And clearly they don't feel like the current electeds are doing that.

RAJU: Before you jump in, I want to -- because I want to turn to another topic here about Joe Biden. The former president and Joe Biden are going to do their first post-White House interview later this week. They're going to go on "The View".

There have been new reports and there are new books coming out about Biden's cognitive issues, according to "The New York Times", out today. According to a new book, it says Biden aides decided against a cognitive test in early 2024.

I mean, what do you make of Biden now coming out there, perhaps trying to rebut some of these books, not just this, with our colleague Jake Tapper, I think another one with Alex Thompson -- has another book coming out talking about his mental issues. What's your reaction?

KANNO-YOUNGS: Well, his legacy in many ways completely changed what the outcome of this election for -- for his career. And people will look back on the decision to stay in the race amid very, very clear and outspoken concerns, not just from other members of his party eventually, but the base, from voters about his age as well.

So some of this is to go in and try to rebut some of these concerns and try and shape that legacy.

But I think there's also a more broader political implication here where Democrats are still looking back and trying to figure out how they not only lost the election, but for many of them, lost the working class, lost the connection to the middle class here.

And, you know, Joe Biden coming out maybe, he would argue, a part of that reflection period. But for many now, at a time when Democrats are looking for a younger -- a leader representing a younger generation to come lead them, there's some that just do not want Joe Biden to be the one in the spotlight.

RAJU: And many of them will face questions -- they already have about why didn't you raise concerns about Joe Biden before? You were sitting with him privately. You saw a different side of him than perhaps the public may have seen.

Burns: Well, this goes back to the transparency issue that is becoming increasingly more important in politics, as voters want authenticity, they want honesty from their politicians. and Democrats, given the stories that are coming out about Biden. Listen -- given everything you've said about the Democratic Party right now, Biden out there so publicly in this moment is the last thing that that they want.

RAJU: Yes. There's no question about that. That will be interesting what he has to say, and how he says it.

All right. Still ahead, there's a big election coming up this week. Well, it's that election to pick a new pope.

My next guest will give us a glimpse into the secretive process and how the cardinals might view Trump joking he should be pope. SNL had some fun with that last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will always be your favorite president and perhaps your next pope.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[08:38:03]

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DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Pope? I'd like to be pope. That would be my number one choice.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you say, Mr. President?

TRUMP: I don't know, I have no preference.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: That was President Trump just a few days ago, when a reporter asked him who should be the next pope. Then this weekend, he posted an A.I.-generated image on Truth Social that depicts himself as the leader of the Catholic Church.

All of this comes as the new -- as the conclave to pick a new pope is set to begin at the Vatican on Wednesday.

Joining me now is Katie McGrady. She's the host of "The Katie McGrady Show" on Sirius XM, the Catholic channel, and is also a CNN Vatican analyst.

Good morning Katie. Thank you so much for being here. Let's begin with those remarks.

KATIE MCGRADY, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Good morning.

RAJU: Absolutely. Let's begin with those remarks that Trump made and the image he shared that depicts him as the pope. How do the Vatican and the cardinals view this is this is this being written off as simply a joke, or is it seen as offensive?

MCGRADY: I think it's at best immature, and at worst offensive. There were some questions asked at the Holy See press office about it yesterday, and the spokesperson declined to comment.

This morning, just a few minutes ago, Cardinal Timothy Dolan in Rome. He was saying mass at his parish church there, was asked about it, and he used a phrase hat I think captures it perfectly. He called it "brutta figura", which is basically "it makes him look like a fool".

And I think that's what it is. And I think that's how it's being read.

Some people might have chuckled and rolled their eyes and been like, oh, that's cringe humor. I read it, as you know, he's trying to insert himself into a narrative where he's really not relevant.

And it was main character energy and was wildly immature to try to be relevant in something that he's not really being considered.

I was fine with the oh, I'd like to be pope. Well, who wouldn't? In some ways, the whole world shows up for your funeral. That's clearly something Donald Trump admired and would have wanted maybe for himself.

But at this point, that image, it's really quite ridiculous and absurd. And I think it's worth noting that its offensive because it came at a time when we're still in our official days of mourning as a church.

So, you know, maybe if you wanted to post something like that, hold off until the conclave is underway. And it's all secretive inside.

[08:44:48]

RAJU: Yes. And I want you to take us behind the scenes of the conclave. This, of course, is a very mysterious process. So much interest in it.

And we're, of course, a show called INSIDE POLITICS. So I'm very interested in how similar this is to say a leadership election in the United States Congress, where it's done by secret ballot. It's more about relationships between the members, private promises they're making. Is it similar to that?

MCGRADY: So it is, and it isn't. Technically, they're not supposed to make secret promises in the sense that, well, that's against the rules. You can't try to wheel and deal in the ways of, well, I'll do this if you give me your vote. Because -- and I think it's been said a thousand times a thousand different ways, he who enters the conclave a pope leaves a cardinal.

No one gets up in the front and goes, hi, my name is cardinal so-and- so and I'm running in the same way that you would nominate a candidate. But you have like three roles emerging. You've got kingmakers. So these are the people who are kind of pushing forward candidates who can't push forward themselves.

And you've got commentators, people who are the voice of that particular candidate. Oh, this is what they might do, or this is the direction they potentially go.

But all of that happens in these general congregations. I call it cardinal camp. They meet throughout the course of this week leading up to the conclave, but they're talking less about the man by name right now, and instead we're talking about here's an issue that the world and the church is facing.

And here is equality. Here's a skill set. So maybe good management or good with languages or very personable and outgoing and would be star power.

And then the names will emerge really in the first vote on Wednesday. That's kind of like your nominating vote. No one's coming out on Wednesday night with white smoke, but all the cardinals will go to bed that night knowing where the various camps, so to speak, have fallen.

RAJU: Fascinating. But, you know, it's no secret Pope Francis was critical of President Trump and his policies. Do you think we will see a shift in the Vatican with a more subdued, perhaps less progressive pope, or someone who's more in line with Pope Francis?

MCGRADY: So I think it's interesting to point out that the church is far older than the paradigms of conservative or progressive that we would necessarily see today. So what would maybe be considered conservative in the church because of liturgy is actually quite progressive in some social issues when it comes to say the migrant, or when it comes to how we care for people who are marginalized.

So maybe we will see a pope who pulls back a bit from press conferences on airplanes, or who speaks a little more precisely because that was not necessarily Francis' gift.

But I don't think we'll see a pope who locks himself away in the Vatican and who says, I'm not going to engage with the world. I think were far past that point.

And I think the cardinals certainly recognize that, that we are in an age where presidents post pictures of themselves as the pope. We are clearly in a memeable (ph) age. We're clearly in a digital moment.

The pope will certainly have to engage whether he does that by picking up the phone and calling a president, or calling a prime minister and saying, this is what I think. The pope doesn't ever really do that and hasn't.

But I do think they're certainly estimating how exactly will this person play on the world stage. And that's one of those qualities they're looking for.

RAJU: And just very quickly, if you had to bet right now, who do you think will become the next pope?

MCGRADY: It's against canon law for me to try to influence it. And I don't want to get excommunicated. I'll say I have a short list. And when I'm back in the studios this week, we can grab a cup of coffee and I'll share my names.

RAJU: I will be eager to hear that.

Katie McGrady, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate your expertise.

All right. And next up for us, we're in the season when politicians are looking to make their next big move. I'll tell you which big name is considering a major retirement. If that has happened will help Democrats take back control of the House.

[08:48:38]

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RAJU: It's that time of the year when politicians are deciding whether it's time to make that jump to higher office or hang it up altogether. In a congress with such tiny margins, every move matters, particularly in swing districts.

In New York, Democrats stand a serious chance at winning a suburban district just north of New York City if Republican Mike Lawler decides to run for governor instead. But he could face a primary if GOP congresswoman and MAGA ally Elise Stefanik throws her hat in the ring for governor.

But Lawler told me he has proven he could win in a tough general election environment and said this about Stefanik.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: On the governor's race. Stefanik runs, are you going to run?

REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): Her candidacy has no bearing on mine. I will make a determination in June, as I said. And ultimately the question to me is who is best poised to win a general election, period.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Meanwhile, Republican Senator Tommy Tuberville joined Trump this past week as he delivered the commencement address at the University of Alabama. There, he planned to speak with the president about running for Alabama governor.

He told me he was leaning towards it and would decide before Memorial Day.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TOMMY TUBERVILLE (R-AL): Well, I'm considering it. My wife and I and family, we've sat down once and we really talked hard about it. I want to do what's best for the people of Alabama. Is it here or is it in the governor's seat back in Montgomery.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[08:54:46]

RAJU: And then there's Don Bacon. He's one of just three House Republicans in districts Harris won in 2024. The 61-year-old told me he's considering hanging it up, something that would be a major boon for Democrats as they seek to flip the chamber.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: It sounds like you might retire. Have you made a decision on that?

REP. DON BACON (R-NE): I hadn't made a decision. You know, I could do it like last time. I prayed on it for a long time before I ended up doing it. It's motivated by the people running against me, though. I have a chance, maybe for a third life. So I'm just praying on it and hope and I just try to do what God -- where God leads me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: This town will be watching.

All right, that's it for INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. You can follow me on X @mkraju. Follow the show @INSIDE POLITICS. Follow me on Instagram @manu_raju.

If you ever miss an episode, just catch up wherever you get your podcasts and search for INSIDE POLITICS.

Up next, "STATE OF THE UNION WITH JAKE TAPPER AND DANA BASH". Jake's guests include Senators Mark Warner and Ron Johnson, as well as ESPN host Stephen A. Smith.

Thanks again for sharing your Sunday morning with us. We'll see you next time.

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