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Inside Politics

Trump Says He's Not Seeking To Fire Fed Chief Powell; Trump On Epstein: "Foolish Republicans Fall Into The Net"; Trump Defends A.G. Bondi Amid MAGA Attacks Over Epstein; Trump: "I Lost A Lot Of Faith In Certain People" Over Epstein; Trump Calls His Supporters Upset About Epstein Probe "Weaklings"; Trump Pressures Fed Chair Powell To Lower Interest Rates. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired July 16, 2025 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: And we all of the votes are going with us, every single vote. But during the conversation, when we were talking about it, yes, what would you do about that? They all said, we'll fire him.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you for taking the question, sir. You were in Pennsylvania yesterday, you unveiled $92 billion worth of investments. One of those jumped out though $15 billion in Homer City to build largest power plant ever. I was at the rally where you told Homer City residents, not forget them when the biggest coal plant in Pennsylvania goes down. Delivered to them yesterday, what message do you have for those residents?

TRUMP: Well, I'm happy. Homer City, I was there, and I said, I'm going to produce something I don't know what, because they shut down this massive coal plant, one of the biggest in the country. And it was just purchased by the gentleman that you met yesterday, very substantial man. I don't know if he says maybe not as substantial as you -- I'm not sure, but he's pretty substantial. You know who I'm talking about.

And they're going to spend billions of dollars on rebuilding it, and it's going to be the largest plant of its kind in the -- in the world, I believe, actually in the world and it's going to be great. So, we really fulfill that promise to Homer City, but it's to Pennsylvania basically. I won Pennsylvania. And very conclusively won Pennsylvania.

So, I owe them a big debt of gratitude. But thank you for bringing that up. We raised 92, it's actually going over 100. So, it'll be over $100 billion to be invested in Pennsylvania's -- Pennsylvania energy project. So, we had -- everybody was there. Larry Fink was there. I mean, everybody was there, and we done a great job. The senator did a great job. And we were very proud. That was a great meeting yesterday. Thank you very much.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- actually for each of you. So, for the crown prince. You -- are you planning on taking any of the Patriot missiles that you're going to receive from the United States and divert those to help Ukraine?

SALMAN BIN HAMAD AL KHALIFA, PRIME MINISTER, BAHRAIN: We have no current plans, as we have an operational requirement inside Bahrain to keep them for the present time.

TRUMP: He's got plenty of them too.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Mr. President on the fentanyl bill.

AL KHALIFA: They're wonderful. They're wonderful pieces of kit.

TRUMP: They work very well.

AL KHALIFA: American technology is the best.

TRUMP: Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And on the second bill --

TRUMP: It's actually maybe the most important part of this. He has his choice of everything, and we make the best military equipment by far in the world. There's nothing close, right?

AL KHALIFA: Far not.

TRUMP: Yeah. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And on the fentanyl bill that you're signing today. Do you hope that that's going to restart law enforcement cooperation with China on getting the fentanyl --

TRUMP: Yeah. I think China has been helping out. I mean, it's been -- it's been a terrible situation for many years with fentanyl. But since I came here, we're talking to them and they're making big steps. They're also, as you know, being penalized. You know that, right, they're being penalized with tariffs because of the fentanyl, but they want to do something. We'll see what happens.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: One, please.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you, Mr. President. An American from Tampa was beaten to death. He was killed by Israeli settlers in the West Bank. His family has been calling on you to help prosecute his killers. Are you going to do that an American from Tampa?

TRUMP: Yeah. Your first sentence is true. Go ahead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: An American citizen from Tampa, Florida has been killed in the West Bank. His family has been asking a new to prosecute him. Are you going to help finding this?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah. Well, so first of all, have you seen yesterday, Ambassador Huckabee has asked the Israelis to conduct an investigation. We want to get all the information about who was involved. We protect all American citizens anywhere in the world, especially their unjustly murdered or killed. So, we're gathering more information. But I hope you saw yesterday, Ambassador Huckabee in Israel asked the Israeli authorities to produce an investigation and concrete information about who was responsible for his murder.

TRUMP: They're reporting that tomorrow. We have a meeting on it. They're going to be reporting that to me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think that the Gulf area now is more secure, and do you believe that a negotiation with Iran is necessary at this stage?

AL KHALIFA: Well, I definitely believe that the volatility of the situation has been reduced. And we didn't know where it was going to go on the Sunday, we were very glad when we found out on the Monday. Let me put it that way. And should the Iranians want to negotiate? I believe the ball is in their court. That is the true reality of where we stand today. They are the ones that stand to benefit from a negotiation.

TRUMP: And they do. They want to negotiate. They want to negotiate badly. We're in no rush because, you know, we said we could have made a deal. They should have made a deal. And then we bombed the hell out of their various places. We're in no rush, but if they want to negotiate, we're here. Yeah.

[12:05:00]

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, I know you want to move past all this intrigue over the Epstein files, but I do want to ask you to clarify something you said this morning. You said this was all a hoax. Has your attorney general told you this was a hoax? What evidence have you seen there?

TRUMP: No, it's not attorney general -- I don't know. I know it's a hoax. It's started by Democrats. It's been run by the Democrats for four years. You had Christopher Wray and these characters and Comey before him, and it's a bad group. It started -- actually look at the Steele dossier that turned out to be a total hoax. The 51 agents, the intelligence so called intelligence agents, it was a hoax. It's all been a big hoax. It's perpetrated by the Democrats and some stupid Republicans and foolish Republicans fall into the net, and so they try and do the Democrats work.

The Democrats are good for nothing other than these hoaxes. They're bad for policy. They're bad for picking candidates that can get elected. Like in New York, we have a communist running. He may get elected to actually, but he's going to -- he'll destroy the city. No, no. It's -- I call it the Epstein hoax. Takes a lot of time and effort.

Instead of talking about the great achievements, we've had a great gentleman yesterday, as you know, one on CNBC, and he made the statement that Trump may go down as the greatest president of all and the United States. And instead of talking about the things we've achieved we've had tremendous achievement. They're wasting their time with a guy who obviously had some very serious problems, who died three, four years ago.

I'd rather talk about the success we have with the economy, the best we've ever had, and all of the things we've done, including the Middle East. I mean, you see it. Instead, they want to talk about the Epstein hoax. And the sad part is, it's people that are really doing the Democrats work. They're stupid people. Yeah, go ahead.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, lots of reports coming into this meeting that you planned on firing Fed Chair, Jay Powell markets --

TRUMP: Is that right? Those are reports, but they're not true.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, what would be useful to know? Are you committed to picking someone from the outside? Are you going to interview --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: There're so many people that want that job. I have people that I've known a long time. They're calling me begging for the job. You know what you need there, a smart person with common sense, but you need a very smart person for that job. I think it's one of the easiest jobs in government.

You show up once a month and you make a statement about where the economy is going, and we're going to raise or lower interest rates. It's probably the easiest job I've ever seen. That's what I'm trying to figure why does he want to expand and add more people? He's going to add more economists to tell him what to do. But the economist -- I was right, all the economists were wrong. They admitted -- they admitted it this morning. Why, why, why? Go ahead.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, you mentioned fraud in an earlier answer. Are you saying you want to investigate the Fed chair for fraud related to this renovation?

TRUMP: I think he's already under investigation. He spent far more money than he was supposed to on rebuilding. I didn't see him as being the kind of guy that would, you know, want to have parks, rooftop parks and everything else on top of buildings. But who wants to spend that money for the Fed? The Fed is supposed to sit there and say where interest rates are going and a couple of other very easy things to do. And he spent $2.5 billion. I think he's, you know, I think he's got some problems.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, sir. You also reported a certain monthly surplus in the month of June -- (CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: -- billion dollars.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ton money with these new tariff rates coming into effect on August 1 and we bringing in even more tariff revenue. Specifically, how much revenue do you think we can consistently bring in from these tariffs? And how big of a game changer is this, not only for the economy, but also a fiscal (Ph) response?

TRUMP: Well, we're going to be bringing in -- already, we've brought in over $100 billion. We'll be bringing in hundreds of billions of dollars, and the tariffs really haven't kicked in that much other than automobiles and steel. August 1 is a big day. August 1 is when very substantial money comes into our country. We've made deals with a lot of great places, but we had one yesterday. You know, that was announced.

We have another one coming up, maybe with India. I don't know if we're in negotiation. When I send out a letter, that's a deal. In other words, that's a deal. They don't want to ever say that. Oh, how many deals have you made? The best deal we can make is to send out a letter, and the letter says that you'll pay 30 percent, 35 percent, 25 percent, 20 percent, in one case 50 percent Brazil, and because they -- what they're doing to their former president is disgraceful.

[12:10:00]

I know the former president. He fought like hell for the people of Brazil that I can tell you and I believe he's an honest man. I think what they're doing to him is terrible. So, you know, we have some -- we have some pretty good deals to announce, but every time we send out a letter, that's the big one really is going to be on the 150 countries that we're really not negotiating with and they're smaller. We don't do much business with because you have a lot of countries. You have over 200 countries.

A lot of people don't know this but -- but we'll have a, you know, well over 150 countries that we're just going to send a notice of payment out and the notice of payment is going to say what the tariff. And we're -- it's all going to be the same for everyone, for that group.

They don't, you know, it's not -- they're not big countries and they don't do that much business, not like the ones that we've agreed with, like China, like Japan, where we're negotiating with them, but I think probably will live by the letter with Japan.

We're very close to a deal with India, where they open it up. Indonesia yesterday was -- it wasn't an open country now it is. And they have tremendous copper, quality copper, and probably the most copper. And we made a deal with Indonesia. We pay no tariff, zero, and we have total access to trade. That's a phenomenal deal for our companies.

And we've agreed with them, as you know, on 19 percent. They pay 19 percent. And it's a good deal for them. It's a good deal for us in that case, but we have a number of them coming up. But overall, we're doing well, and we're taking in a lot of money, a lot of money. We have the number one, you know, we have the most oil of any country in the world, even more than that, which is --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: -- but we have a little larger piece of land, right?

AL KHALIFA: You do so.

TRUMP: But we have -- we're number one in the world in oil, and we're drilling, and today it hit $64 a barrel, which is great. And that'll help stop wars actually, one other truth, it's going to help stop wars. And we hope to get it down a little bit more, but we have oil down to $2, $2.25, $2.15 numerous states. We had one at $1.98 a gallon. And that's a great thing. That's one of the reasons that inflations in check. When you can do that, you stop inflation.

What Biden did is he ended our policies. Went to his policies with -- he didn't have a policy. Some lunatic around the desk had a policy. Whoever operated the auto pen had a policy, which is, by the way, I think the biggest scandal. That's the scandal they should be talking about, not Jeffrey Epstein. The scandal you should be talking about is the auto pen, because I think it's the biggest scandal, one of them in American history.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: So, the economy is doing really well, and people are saying it. Yeah.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, will you ask Attorney General Pam Bondi to release more documents to finally put this controversy to that.

TRUMP: You know, whatever is credible, she can release. If a document is credible, if the documents there that is credible, she can release. I think it's -- I think it's good, but it's just really -- it's just a subject. He's dead, he's gone, and all it is the Republican. Certain Republicans got duped by the Democrats, and they're following a Democrat playbook, and no different when than Russia, Russia, Russia and all the other hoaxes. They're started by the Democrats and some Republicans, in this case, I was surprised, but they got duped.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First of all, you are -- your high-ranking officials, whether it's been your FBI director or Pam Bondi, they have made some inconsistent statements in the past. You've had --

TRUMP: Well, I don't know. I can't speak about him, but I can say that Pam Bondi, I really think that she's done very good. She says, I gave you all the credible information, and if she finds any more credible information, she'll give that too. What more can she do than that? I mean, honestly, what more can she do?

And we do have bigger problems. You know, we have problems with millions of illegal people that came in here, and they're killers and murderers. We have 11,888 murders that were allowed in to our country by Biden, sleepy Joe Biden, stupid Joe Biden. He allowed him into our country. And you know what, we got to do something, but she's got a lot of things, she's working on. And you know, it's very sad that somebody can be waylaid, that just get waylaid, but she's -- I think she's doing a great job.

(CROSSTALK)

[12:15:00]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said this morning and you mentioned past supporters when you were talking about the Epstein issue. Does that mean that you're effectively disowning any supporters who are now --

TRUMP: I've lost a lot of faith in certain people. Yeah, I lost -- because they got duped by the Democrats. The Democrats are good for nothing. They've done a terrible job. They almost destroyed our country. If I didn't get elected, all these numbers you're hearing about, they found $25 billion and another 25 is coming in, and hundreds of billions of dollars is pouring into our country.

And we just got the biggest tax cut in history. We just got the biggest regulation cuts in history. There'll be no tax on tips, there'll be no tax on Social Security. There'll be no tax on overtime. There'll be no tax on, so many other things. You're allowed to deduct your interest from a car payment. That's never happened before. You borrow interest. You borrow money to buy a car, if the car is made in America -- and by the way, factories are being built all over America, car factories, AI factories, but you get a deduction on your interest. Nobody ever thought of that before. It never happened before.

And you know, these are the things that they should be talking about. The big, beautiful bill is one of the greatest pieces of legislation ever in this country, and the Democrats have nothing to combat it. So, they say, oh, it's death, death. That's good. And then they give it to the fake news, which is you and a few others. And the fake news talks about the bill is death. The bill is actually life. The bill is life, and it saves our country. This bill is incredible.

Look at the results already. So, we have $16 trillion being invested in our country. And this great gentleman and his family just came in with another billions of dollars. And if he didn't like the country, if he didn't like where we were going. He's very smart. He would -- he'd come, maybe come, maybe wouldn't even come. I think maybe it wouldn't even come and save your time. But can -- you know, it's one of those things. But if he didn't like with this country was, he wouldn't be investing billions of dollars in this country.

But think of it, $16 trillion more than has ever been even contemplated before, and we haven't even started yet. So that's what I want to talk about. I want to talk about the success and the Democrats have nothing to show for what they do. They almost destroyed. They allowed 25 million people to come into our country, gang members, jailbirds from all over the world -- not South America, from all over the world.

They allowed him to come into our country from mental institutions, insane asylum. Just walk right through. They couldn't come into your country. They couldn't come into any country in the world except our country. And they came in from the worst places, gang members, drug dealers. They all came in -- turn it off place. They all came in and I'm doing something about it.

We have it under check right now. We got rid of a lot of the murderers already. Some of them we put in our prisons because they're so bad we don't want to take a chance in putting them in a foreign prison. Have them come back, but we've done a great job.

Our country is in great shape. We literally have the hottest country anywhere in the world right now. And it's true what the king said, what a lot of people said, we were a dead country. One year ago -- one year ago, we were a dead country. We were left at all over the world, we had Afghanistan without a horrible embarrassment, most embarrassing moment in the history of our country.

Look what happened with Russia and Ukraine, that should have never happened. Look what happened with Israel, that would have never happened. Hamas had no money. Iran had no money. There was no money to do an attack like that. All these things that happened that wouldn't have happened if you had good leadership, and that's what you should be talking about. Thank you very much.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let's go, let's go. Thank you. Thank you press. Hey, thank you. Thank you and congrats.

DANA BASH, CNN HOST, INSIDE POLITICS: Well, we certainly have a lot to unpack there. That was the president taking questions in the Oval Office. Two big leads there, kind of a dual lead on Jeffrey Epstein, him doubling, tripling down on attacking his own supporters for questioning the very conspiracies that he and some people who are at the highest levels of his now government perpetuated for a very long time. And then on the economy, questions about whether he's going to fire the Fed Chair.

I want to bring in two of our excellent reporters to help break this down, Kristen Holmes, who is at the White House. Phil Mattingly, who will help us with the Fed angle of this. Kristen, I just want to start with you. And just to kind of bring this up to what 10,000 feet.

[12:20:00]

What we have here is a president who has been, maybe he wasn't the most aggressive personally in pushing conspiracy theories as he had with others in the past in his political and pre political life. But he certainly did not try to stop the notion of Jeffrey Epstein and what these "files show," what the client list which is or isn't there. We don't even know shows. But it's not that hard and we will do so in a little while to find recent tape of the now FBI director, the now deputy FBI director, the now attorney general that he put in place, promising that when they get into office, they will find out the truth about Jeffrey Epstein. And now he is using the power that he hopes he still has to say nothing to see here, that it's a hoax, that it's all the Democrats. He has been successful in trying to do that in the past and say, don't look here. Look over here to members of his base. But so far, he has not been successful on this issue, Kristen?

KRISTEN HOLMES, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, Dan. I mean, you took the words right out of my mouth, just because President Trump himself wasn't the biggest proponent or perpetuator of these Epstein conspiracy theories. He did put three of the most vocal people who had said that they wanted to release this list into top jobs within his administration, of course, being Attorney General Pam Bondi, FBI Deputy Director Dan Bongino, and FBI Director Kash Patel.

Now you see him completely backing away from this and also really doing it with a slap in the face to some of his most ardent supporters, people who have been waiting for the release of this list. I just want to read you what he posted this morning because this is what really set it off. You can see how much angrier he's getting by the minute over this Epstein coverage.

She said, my past supporters have bought into this quote, bullshit, hook, line and sinker. They haven't learned their lesson and probably never will, even after being conned by the lunatic left for eight long years, let these weaklings continue forward and do the Democrats work. Don't even think about talking of our incredible and unprecedented success because I don't want their support anymore. Thank you for your attention to this matter.

OK. A couple of things to note here. This isn't just some fringe part of his base. There is a huge part of his base that believes in there that there are Epstein files that need to be released. We saw that when Charlie Kirk held his seminar over the weekend in Florida, and there were thousands upon thousands of people there, cheering to release the files, cheering for Dan Bongino. You are seeing a real break here in the MAGA movement.

Now the question is, as you said, do they fall in line eventually? And we just simply don't know the answer to that right now. But I just want to read you a couple of the things he said in that meeting, because some of these are just so deeply insulting to the people who put him in office. He said at one point that foolish Republicans have fallen into the net of this democratic, as he called it, Epstein hoax.

He said, at one point, I have lost a lot of faith in certain people who he said had pushed the Epstein quote, hoax. This is what he's calling it. He said Republicans got duped by Democrats. One point, he said, stupid Republicans and stupid people are focused on this.

He also noted that if there was anything credible left to release that the attorney general should release it any kind of documents. And he praised Pam Bondi's handling of all of this. But if you listen to those words there, and you go back and you watch the tape of who exactly it was, who was helping propel this messaging around Epstein. Those are the people who got him elected, Dana.

Those are the people who were out there every day on their podcast, on various different shows, reaching out to parts of the country that were usually untapped for voters. Those are those people, and they reached those people, and they got them out to the polls, and they had an unprecedented win with certain voting blocks.

And now you hear President Trump saying that these are stupid people who were duped and that is clearly not going to sit well, despite where this ends, because obviously, we can't -- again, predict where this goes. But that is not the message that these people who helped him get elected want to hear.

BASH: He's telling off his own supporters, just to put it bluntly, that is what he is doing. And also trying to blame it on Democrats, when it's just not credible, even and especially for those very supporters who still want answers. I got a text while this was happening from somebody who was a big ally of the president, who said when I asked, is this going to work with the base? And the answer was, I just don't see it. We're going to talk a lot more about that. Thank you so much.

[12:25:00]

Phil, let's talk about the Fed chair, Jerome Powell. Before we talk about it, let's just play part of what the president said when asked whether or not, he is going to fire the Fed chair.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: He's a terrible Fed chair. I was surprised he was appointed. I was surprised, frankly, that Biden put him in and extended him, but they did. So, you know, we're not planning on doing anything. We're very concerned. We should be paying three points lower, and we would save a trillion dollars a year in interest if that were the case, and all it is, is the stroke of a pen.

And that goes for his board too, because his board is not doing the job, because they should try and rein this guy in. So, he's doing a lousy job. But no, I'm not talking about that. We get -- fortunately, we get to make a change in the next one, eight months or so. And we'll pick somebody that's good and we'll pick somebody. I just want a fair job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Phil just quickly another factcheck. He put Jerome Powell in as Fed chair. It is true that Biden extended him, but it was he, Donald Trump, who made Powell the Fed chair. And sort of the headline here is that there were reports that the president told lawmakers yesterday that he was poised to fire Powell soon, and he said that's not true.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN ANCHOR & CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. Let me kind of walk people through the journey that those who cover this issue went through in the 30 minutes leading up to the president speaking there in that spray with reporters. We have been reporting, and Kristen Holmes broke a ton of news on this last week, and we've been reporting as a team that there was a significant expansion of a very coordinated effort to pressure the Fed chair.

It is no secret how the president feels about Jerome Powell. It is no secret how the president feels about where interest rates are. His disdain for both of those things has been very clear and not at all subtle over the period of months, and in some cases over the period of years.

The effort by his advisors, including some bureaucratic tools that they've decided to put into place over the course of the last several days, has certainly escalated what we have seen. However, there has been a view, I think Kristen has reporting on this from advisors. I have reporting on this from advisors that this was all part of kind of the extreme level of jawboning.

I guess, you could say, when it comes to the Fed, which other presidents have done in the past. Never to this degree, but they have done it in the past when it comes to interest rates. What changed is there was a meeting last night with a group of House Republicans. Those House Republicans were meeting with the president, ostensibly related to a cryptocurrency bill.

During that meeting, the president was airing some of his grievances and frustrations about Jay Powell. He pulled the room. Pretty much everybody there, I'm told, said that Powell should be fired. I'm also told that the president pointed to a piece of paper that he said was a draft basically firing letter, removal letter for Jay Powell.

In the wake of reporting about that, which came over the course of the morning, the White House didn't knock it down. And in fact, they indicated that it was likely -- not only was the story that we're reporting out was true, but it was likely the president was going to move forward and fire Jay Powell.

Then 15 minutes later, we saw the president deny that was underway, kind of brush off the idea of it in and of itself. And in the meantime, the markets, upon the initial reports that firing was likely, stock market dropped dramatically, 400, 500 points at one point, long term treasury yields spiked dramatically. Five, six, seven basis points, which is what you would expect. And now everything is kind of settled in into a volatile yet uncertain place.

This is a little bit lengthy, but I want to make this point. You can see the mark right, there is up five to six points. I want to make this point because it's important. The reason why the president maybe wants to work behind the scenes and add pressure but isn't willing to pull the trigger on this is twofold. First off, he can't without cause. It's not within his authority.

Now there's some dispute over that within the administration. It is pretty clear that without cause, he can't do it. What his team has put together is potentially a pathway to find cause, as it relates to a renovation that they've really seized on over the course of the last couple weeks. That is probably tenuous at best.

But the reason why the president doesn't act on this, even if he believes he has cause, is because of that short term market reaction you saw when it became a real thing all of a sudden. The president wants rates to go down. If he fires the Federal Reserve chair, that would almost immediately lead to a significantly prolonged legal fight.

As the president noted, this is not an individual decision when it comes to interest rates. He is on a board, a board of the Federal Open Market Committee, of which there are voters, more than just him, where a majority decides the pathway forward on rates. None of those individuals were pushing for a rate cut in the last meeting, maybe if you will this time.

If Powell gets bounced and markets go haywire and treasury yields skyrocket, you are less likely to get an interest rate cut, not just in July, but also in September. And then moving forward, regardless of who the chair is. So, there's a reason why there's a reluctance to do this.