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Senators Grill RFK Jr. Amid CDC Chaos, Vaccine Policy Turmoil; Kennedy: "I'm Not Taking Vaccines Away From Anybody"; Kennedy: Ex-CDC Director Lying About Why I Fired Her; Kennedy Attacks Democratic Senators During Contentious Hearing. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired September 04, 2025 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

SEN. MARSHA BLACKBURN (R-TN): Then, if you will have that someone submit to me in writing what that pathway is. This is something that is essential. If we're going to be able to benefit from that data. So having some specificity on the pathway will be helpful.

I did want to talk with you. Last time you were here. I talked about the concerns on overprescribing prescription stimulant drugs for children. And there are ways that HHS can work collaboratively with state agencies on this and to actually promote more community-based intervention to combat over prescribing. And we all have seen the harmful side effects, and there's a lot of reporting out there on this and tremendous concern for grandmamas like me, who see children and friends of our grandchildren who suffer with this.

So, I know your team is working on solutions. So, you're going to have your make our children healthy again, strategy that you're going to release but talk for a moment. We've got 30 seconds left. Talk for a moment on how you can better arm parents with information on the harmful side effects of over-prescribing these stimulant drugs.

ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HHS SECRETARY: I mean, one of the problems, Senator is that, you know, we now have one out of every five kids on these drugs and the antidepressants even more. And we know very little about long-term impacts, because NIH and CDC have been asleep at the wheel. Right now, we are doing those studies. We're doing extensive studies so that we can warn parents, and so that we can force the companies to put labels on their products.

And you know, we'll do whatever we can to show that, just to get data out to the public. That's really what our function is, and to show what the long-term impact of some of these drugs is, you know, are we actually preventing suicide, or are we creating more suicide?

And that's something that we don't know the answer to, which is, you know, how did these drugs became -- become so common our society without us even knowing the answer to those questions. That is malpractice at these agencies and that is the malpractice that I am going to fix.

BLACKBURN: Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. Senator Warren?

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So, last November, while you were under consideration to become Secretary of Health and Human Services. Mr. Kennedy, you said, quote, if vaccines are working for somebody, I'm not going to take them away. No exceptions, no ifs ands or buts. You would not take away vaccines from anyone who wanted them.

Then last week, you announced the covid 19 vaccine is no longer approved for healthy people under the age of 65. In announcing the change, you said the vaccine will be available for anyone who wants it. Now, obviously both things cannot be true at the same moment.

So, let's clear this up right now, Secretary Kennedy. Will you tell America that all adults and all children over six months of age are eligible to get a covid booster at their local pharmacy today?

KENNEDY: Anybody can get the booster.

WARREN: I'm sorry.

KENNEDY: Anybody can get it, Senator.

WARREN: Anyone. So, you're saying that is now the official rule of HHS, anybody is eligible to get a booster by just walking into the pharmacy.

KENNEDY: It's not recommended for healthy people.

WARREN: No, no. If you don't recommend, then the consequence of that in many states is that you can't walk into a pharmacy and get one. It means insurance companies don't have to cover the $200 or so cost, as Senator Dr. Cassidy said, you are effectively denying people vaccines.

KENNEDY: I'm not going to recommend a product for which there's no clinical data for that indication, which is that what I should be doing.

WARREN: What you should be doing, is honoring your promise that you made when you were looking to get confirmed in this job --

KENNEDY: You're going like this.

WARREN: -- and that is you promised that you would not take away vaccines from anyone who wanted them. You just changed the classification of the covid vaccine.

KENNEDY: I'm not taking them away from people., Senator.

WARREN: It takes it away, if you can't get it from your pharmacy --

KENNEDY: Most Americans are going to be able to get it from their pharmacy for free.

(Crosstalk)

WARREN: -- that takes it away (inaudible) how many dollars?

KENNEDY: Most Americans will be able to get it from their pharmacy free.

WARREN: No, the question is everyone who wants it. That was your promise, Mr. Kennedy --

KENNEDY: No. I never promised that I was going to recommend products with which there is no indication.

WARREN: When you said --

(Crosstalk)

KENNEDY: And I know you've taken $855,000 from pharmaceutical companies, Senator.

WARREN: Did you hold up a big sign saying that you were lying when you said that because you are the one who said, you would not take them away. Now, Senator --

[12:05:00]

KENNEDY: I'm not taking them away from anybody.

WARREN: Secretary, you --

KENNEDY: You want me to indicate a product for which there is no clinical data. Is that you want?

WARREN: Secretary, Kennedy, you said you wouldn't, and now you did.

KENNEDY: I'm not taking them away. Everybody can get access to them.

WARREN: No. They can't walk into a pharmacy the way they could last month and get access.

KENNEDY: It depends on the state -- it depends on the states.

(Crosstalk)

WARREN: A year ago --

KENNEDY: Everybody can get it.

(Crosstalk)

KENNEDY: Everybody can get it, Senator.

WARREN: So, look, let's move on. You clearly are taking away vaccines. I've seen the list for what's coming up next, and that is the agenda for the next CDC vaccine panel. And first up is ratifying your covid actions. Second is hepatitis B is on the agenda. So should Americans expect you to take away hepatitis vaccine access as well, even though you promise not to.

KENNEDY: As I said, I'm not taking vaccines away from anybody.

WARREN: OK, same answer, right? You're just going to deny that when people can't get access, that you're not taking it away. Then let me ask you, is that the same game you're going to play with --

KENNEDY: You want me to answer. So, you want me to recommend every product in the world?

WARREN: No.

KENNEDY: So that, without any clinical trial data --

WARREN: If you follow through on your promises.

KENNEDY: Yeah, my promise was to give --

WARREN: A months ago, we could get covid vaccines by just walking to a pharmacy?

KENNEDY: You can still get covid vaccines, Senator.

WARREN: You are taking that away. So, let me ask you one more question, Secretary Kennedy --

(Crosstalk)

KENNEDY: Now, you are so -- you can still get the covid vaccines, and Medicare will still pay for them and Medicaid will --

WARREN: Can you tell the head of the CDC that if she refused to sign off on your changes to the childhood vaccine schedule that she had to resign.

KENNEDY: No, I told her that she had to resign because I asked her, are you a trustworthy person? And she said, no. If you had an employee who told you they weren't trustworthy, would you ask them to resign, Senator?

WARREN: So, I'm sorry, but this is not what she has said publicly. She has --

KENNEDY: Well, I'm not surprised about that.

WARREN: So, you're saying she's lying?

KENNEDY: Yes. Every conversation I had with her, there were witnesses.

WARREN: And we got the straight, this is the same person that less than a month earlier, you stood next to her and described her as unimpeachable. And you had full confidence in her and that you had full confidence in her scientific credentials, and in a month, she became a liar.

KENNEDY: Yeah. You should ask her, what changed? And by the way, a month ago, you were voting against her because you thought she was either incompetent, ineligible or unsuited to the task. Now I agree with you.

WARREN: I were against here because I was afraid she was going to bend the knee to you and Donald Trump. And it looks like she didn't bend the knee, so you fired her. Look, you are putting America's baby's health at risk, American seniors' health at risk, all Americans' health at risk, and you should resign.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Sanders?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Just want to pick up on Senator Warren's point. Are you telling us that the former head of CDC went to you? You asked her, are you a trustworthy person? And she said, no, I am not a trustworthy person.

KENNEDY: She didn't say, no, I'm not a trustworthy person. She said, no.

SANDERS: Wow.

(Crosstalk)

SANDERS: No, no, one second. And you're also repeating now that she is a liar, correct? What you wrote in The Wall Street Journal.

KENNEDY: She wrote that I fired her because she refused to sign on in advance for the ACIP committee. No, that's not accurate.

SANDERS: No. You're calling her a liar. And I look forward to her coming before the HELP Committee, maybe this committee as well. All right, Mr. Secretary, I've got a bunch of questions. Appreciate brevity in answering it. So called beautiful bill threw 15 million Americans off of healthcare, substantially raised premiums, and it's going to have a terrible impact on nursing homes, community health centers, rural hospitals all over America. Very briefly, is that really making America healthy again?

KENNEDY: It's going to have -- it's going to -- it's going to be the biggest infusion of federal dollars into rural healthcare in American history.

SANDERS: You know why? Because you're cutting $150 billion for rural hospitals, you're putting 50 billion back. That's not an infusion. That's a loss of $100 million -- billion dollars. All right, next question. President Trump, who I don't usually agree with, called covid vaccines, quote, one of the greatest miracles in the history of modern-day medicine that saved tens of millions of lives worldwide.

[12:10:00]

Scientific community agrees with Trump. Lancet study found that it prevented almost 20 million deaths during their first year of use. Secretary Kennedy, are President Trump and the medical community right or do you still believe that the covid vaccine was, quote, a deadliest vaccine ever made?

KENNEDY: First of all, I didn't say that. Oh, I said that in terms of affairs reports a while ago. I said today, I think that President Trump should get the Nobel Prize.

SANDERS: So, who's right? Is Trump or the medical community right, or are you right?

KENNEDY: President Trump did an extraordinary piece of leadership.

SANDERS: Is he right or wrong? Did covid save millions of lives?

KENNEDY: As I said, he got Americans back to work. At that time, that particular vaccine which perfectly matched the virus that was circulating then. And I have no idea how many lives it saved, but it saved quite a few.

SANDERS: You know what I find a little bit weird in this discussion. I'm hearing it over and over again this morning, Mr. Chairman, is we've got the entire medical community on one side. You got the AMA representing hundreds of thousands of doctors, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Public Health Association.

All of these organizations are telling us that covid vaccine and vaccines in general are safe and effective. You are casting doubt on that. Who are your scientific? Who are the organizations that are agreeing with you and casting aspersions on vaccines?

KENNEDY: The primary advisors are Marty Makary, Jay Bhattacharya, Dr. Oz, then I perceive --

SANDERS: So, you got a few doctors who agree with you. What I'm giving you name --

KENNEDY: I got a few doctors. What you're talking about, if there's a big difference, Senator, between established science and the scientific establishment, which has been co-opted by the pharmaceutical --

SANDERS: Oh, hold. So, you're telling me -- you're telling the American people that the American Medical Association, representing hundreds of thousands of people have been co-opted and that they should not trust their doctors. And the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American by the way, just for the record, every single Republican, I don't mean to be political here, Mr. Chairman, has received PAC money from the pharmaceutical industry. Are they all corrupt as well?

KENNEDY: And I'm telling you, the American Heart Association has been corrupt by the --

SANDERS: Everybody, but you Senator -- but you know what, when you ran for president, you know, we have a corrupt campaign finance system. Maybe you will agree with me on that. OK, you (inaudible) for president, you got a billionaire behind it. You received $300,000 from people, not from the industry, people in it, as I did, from individuals.

You corrupt. President Trump got $3 million. Every Republican got corporate PAC money for the pharmaceutical industry, Democrats as well. Everybody is corrupt. But you, is that what we're looking at, I don't think so. And I think the issue --

KENNEDY: I don't even know what you're talking about.

SANDERS: Well, I think you do know what I'm all talking about.

KENNEDY: I don't know what you're talking about.

SANDERS: The issue is, every time anyone --

(Crosstalk)

KENNEDY: Are you saying the pharmaceutical industry was supporting my presidential --

SANDERS: No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying the pharmaceutical industry is a greedy institution, which is charging us the highest prices in the world. They are pervasive. But to suggest that every institution, the AMA, the pediatrics people, is corrupt because they disagree with you is an insult.

KENNEDY: Is not that. There're some people disagree with me all the time. I have arguments in my agency, a heated arguments every day with Jay Bhattacharya, with Marty Makary, with Dr. Oz.

SANDERS: You have given the names of a few people. I have given you the names of organizations representing hundreds of thousands of doctors and scientists. I yield, Mr. Chairman.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Tillis?

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Secretary Kennedy, thank you for being here. A couple of times you asked people if they were making a statement or a question. What I think I may do, just to give you a breather, is to make a statement with a lot of questions. And just for the record, I'd like for you to have the opportunity to have your staff respond.

I can't conclude from the discussion today where you are on warp speed. So, I would like a definitive statement on exactly where you are. Was it good? Was it bad? Were the things that worked? Were the things that didn't work? I can't discern that from what you said here. I for one thing, that it was a signature accomplishment of President Trump and the mRNA platform.

KENNEDY: I agree with that.

TILLIS: I look forward to you giving us a detailed statement on exactly where you are with warp speed. I'm not a doctor, I'm not a trial lawyer, I'm a boring management consultant. Another question that will submit in the record. I'll give you directionally where we're going.

[12:15:00]

I don't see how you go over four weeks from a public health expert with unimpeachable scientific credentials, a long-time champion of MAHA values, caring and compassionate and brilliant microbiologist. And four weeks later, fire her because, at least the public reports say because she refused to fire people that worked for her.

So, as somebody who advised executives on hiring strategies, number one. I would suggest in the interview, you ask them if they're truthful, rather than four weeks after we took the time of the U.S. Senate to confirm, the person just for the future nominate that we're going to have to consider.

But I do also believe that some of your statements seem to contradict what you said in the prior hearing. You said you're going to empower the scientists at HHS to do their job. I'd just like to see evidence where you've done that, and I'm sure that you will have some. You will do nothing that makes it difficult or discourages people from taking vaccines. There seem to be several reports that would seem to refute that, but I'd rather you just respond to it.

I'm not going to come here and impose my belief over any of yours. That, again, seems to be contradictory to the firing of the CDC director, the canceling of mRNA research contracts, firing advisory board members, attempting to stall NIH funding, eliminating funding for the half of -- I think, a $0.5 billion for further vaccine. I'm sorry, mRNA research. And just want an answer for it.

On the -- on H.R. 1. I believe you know my concerns about H.R. 1. I've had several meetings with -- and H.R. 1is the big, beautiful, bill Ov3, whatever the brand is. But I'm still -- I've got an office with 60 staff, including half of them in state office. I've had three different estimates of the economic impact on the state of North Carolina.

Can I get your commitment? And I have been looking for somebody that's far more resource than an office of 30 people up in here in D.C. to disprove my estimates with respect to the impact on North Carolina period, and I've yet to have anybody. I would love to be embarrassed and be wrong, but I would like to get your commitment for people to tease through the numbers that I provided before the vote on H.R. 1 that says that if you normalize three independent estimates across the broad spectrum, $25 billion over 10 years, I don't need your response now.

I want somebody to destroy my estimates, because to this point, the most resourced health agency in the world has only given me word salad responses, and I need that, so that we can prepare for the response. $25 billion over 10 years is half of the rule relief fund over five years.

And so, we just need to have that fact as a matter of policy so that we can go in North Carolina and absorb it. And I know every state is different, and I'm assuming every one of my colleagues here have done the math for their states, not focused on that. But I want you to destroy my estimates, in fact they're wrong, and I want you to acknowledge them if, in fact they're right. That will come into question as well. Mr. Kennedy, you've stated multiple times in response to other members questions that that scientists were lying. We'll go back to the record and cases where you've said that. I'd just like to see the scientific evidence to substantiate that. I'm going to stipulate that you were honest, and you had research behind it. We'll go back and figure out what scientific studies you believe are founded on lies and not scientifically viable.

And then finally, I just want to give you an opportunity, apparently, in the exchange with Senator Bennet. You said you agreed with Dr. Levy (Ph) statements, who said that the mRNA vaccine causes serious -- cause serious harm, including death, particularly in young people. They said you agreed with that comment. Did you agree with that comment or not?

KENNEDY: I think that's true. Yes.

TILLIS: OK, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. Mr. Tillis? We now have Senator Smith. You're recognized.

SEN. TINA SMITH (D-MN): Thank you, Mr. Chair. So, Mr. Kennedy, I have sat here for the last many minutes and listened carefully to your testimony. And I think actually, Senator Tillis, laid out so many of the ways that what you have said has contradicted yourself and others. It's -- I mean, I don't even know where to start.

So, I'm going to start here. Over the last eight months, you have claimed to make America healthy again. But in actual fact, you have led the charge in the Trump administration to destroy what is best in our healthcare system. And your denials and your evasion and your lies here do not change that. You are the secretary of the Health and Human Services.

[12:20:00]

Yet, you're trafficking in these fringe idea and discredited theories that are completely out of step with a scientific consensus. And you seem to be willing to say anything in the moment, even if it's untrue. So, last time you were before Congress, Secretary Kennedy, you claimed, and I quote, I have never been anti-vax. I have never told the public to avoid a vaccination.

But in a podcast, you said the opposite. You said there's no vaccine that is safe and effective. So, that sure sounds anti-vax to me, Secretary Kennedy. So, let me ask you. When were you lying, sir, when you told this committee that you were not anti-vax, or when you told Americans that there's no safe and effective vaccine?

KENNEDY: Both things are true.

SMITH: Oh. So, more denial, more back and forth. I mean, here's what I know. Here is what I know.

KENNEDY: Can you explain why, Senator, you just -- SMITH: No, actually I want you to listen to me.

KENNEDY: OK, go ahead.

SMITH: I want you to listen to me because I've been listening to you. You said that ACIP is an independent panel after you stocked it with your picks. You said that you want evidence-based science, but it seems that what you mean is evidence that supports your view, not the scientific consensus. You dared to sit there and call my colleague from New Hampshire a liar, when she presented you with facts that don't support your view of the world. It's incredible.

But let me -- let me move on. Just last week, in the days after the tragic shooting at annunciation Catholic school in my home state of Minnesota. You went on Fox News, blaming school shootings on antidepressants. You have no evidence of that because you have no evidence of a connection. And you want to talk about --

KENNEDY: I don't know. You're just saying something. You're just making stuff out of it.

SMITH: You know, this is what you say, right?

KENNEDY: No.

SMITH: Secretary Kennedy, when someone presents you with information that does not fit --

(Crosstalk)

KENNEDY: I did not blame that shooting. I have no idea whether -- I have no idea, and I would -- I never said that. You're making it up. You are twisting. Here you are. You're being dishonest, right?

SMITH: If you want to talk about mental health, and guns' violence in this country.

(Crosstalk)

KENNEDY: You're being dishonest.

SMITH: If you want to talk about mental health and gun violence in this country, we should be talking about that, because that's what the parents of Annunciation school want to talk about it.

(Crosstalk)

KENNEDY: You don't want to talk. You want to (inaudible) and you want to -- politically you want to have partisan politics that I want to actually solve these problems.

SMITH: Secretary Kennedy, what the Trump administration is doing right now is making it harder for people in this country to get access to mental healthcare. So, don't talk to me about solving the mental healthcare crisis when you are making it harder. You cut Medicaid, which is the number one payer for mental healthcare services in this country. You decimated the agency at Health and Human Services that focuses on mental health and substance abuse. That's what states count on. They're cutting their services to schools as a result of that.

Several years ago, in a bipartisan way, Congress came together and passed the Safer Communities Act, which made important investments in mental healthcare and did some important, those small things to reduce access to guns. What do you do? You propose cutting that funding. This is what we're talking about in your leadership and the Department of Health and Human Services.

If you want radical transparency, as you talk about, I mean, take a look at what you are doing. And you know, I've heard a lot about MAHA today, while we've been here. There's a lot of Americans, Secretary Kennedy, who trust you, who believe what you say, especially when you say you're standing up to corruption.

And I think that they need to know, you apparently have a lot of influence with President Trump. Did you ask him not to rollback these regulations that are stopping the big corporations from dumping heavy metals and endocrine disruptors into our soil and water. I mean, there's no evidence that you have been even opposing that.

Did you do anything to stop the Trump administration from rolling back this handout to big pharma that makes it easier for the big drug companies to charge more for cancer drugs? No, you presided over that. I mean, it's stunning, really, what's happened over the last eight months. It's stunning to me.

And I just hope that in this moment, our colleagues, if there's hardly anybody left in this room, are going to think about what it is that you've done, what your legacy is going to be at the Health and Human Services Agency, and pay attention to the damage that is being done here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Marshall.

ROGER MARSHALL (R-KS): All right, thank you, Chairman and welcome Mr. Secretary. One of your themes for the CDC is transparency. And I think when I hear you talk about transparency, I think part of that is sharing what you know, what the CDC knows, with parents, so that they can make decisions. Behind me, yeah, I know it's going to be hard to see from there.

[12:25:00]

I can barely read it. This is the current CDC recommendations for vaccines for children. On day number one, they get their first jab, a hepatitis vaccine. By the time they're 18 months, they've had 18 jabs. By the time they get to build up to vote, they have 76 jabs.

Now, when we talk -- when I listen, what I hear you say is that, look, vaccines are drugs. We need a measured response and a measured when do we use this? It's interesting that the United States has put age 65 and older for covid vaccine, U.K. has chosen 75 and France 80.

Obviously, sciences disagree exactly when that should or shouldn't be. The hepatitis B vaccine, it makes no sense to me. I've only delivered 5000 babies, but we do a hepatitis test on every mom by the time she delivers that baby, I know her pretty well. And if she doesn't have any risk factors, if she's not an IV drug abuser, if she's in a stable, monogamous relationship, nobody at home says hepatitis.

I don't know. I don't see the benefit myself in that hepatitis vaccine. Everyone's eligible for it. Everyone can get it, and my pediatricians always agree with me. And no, I'm not saying, if you don't know the hepatitis status of that patient, they shouldn't get it. I'm not saying, if this is persons had no prenatal care that puts them at risk for hepatitis. Can you just speak a little bit when you talk about transparency and trying to empower and make vaccines available. These should be treated just like a medication.

KENNEDY: No. I mean, you know, I say I'm not adding vaccine, saying I'm anti vaccine is like saying I'm anti medicine, I'm pro medicine. But I understand some medicines harm people, some of them have risks, some of them have benefits that outweigh those risks for certain populations and the same is true with vaccines. And we don't understand the risk profile, because vaccines are the only medical intervention, medical device or pharmaceutical drug that are exempt from pre-licensing safety studies.

And so, there are two hepatitis vaccines, and one of them was -- had a safety study that lasted for four days on 143 kids, a product that's going to be given to 76 million kids. The risk profile prior to the introduction of the vaccine, the risk of a baby dying from hepatitis B, was one in 7 million. That means you need to give 7 million hepatitis B vaccines to prevent one death, if you're going to give 7 million.

MARSHALL: So, Mr. Sec, and I guess before the press labels, me wrong. I'm not anti-vaccine either. I think MMR has been a great vaccine, the DPT has been a great vaccine. Polio has been a great vaccine, smallpox. So, there are great, but it's the major approach that we're after the transparency. You're trying to empower parents here.

What I feel the difference is sometimes my friends across the aisle feel like there's a one size fits all, that they should be telling parents what to do. And what you and I are fighting for is we want to empower parents to make these decisions. I want to talk about mobility and mortality of covid for just a second.

It is so true that two things can be true, and I don't understand why, just the rabbit hole some of my colleagues are going down. There's a big difference. When I was out there practicing doing volunteer work, there's a -- I was so confused myself on the numbers, people dying with covid versus from covid. And we still don't have that message. And I think that's what I hear you saying as well.

How many people died from covid versus with covid is a different, different answer. The situation today is so different. When this monster virus was made in a laboratory, move on China, and none of us had ever seen this virus, so we had no immunity to it. But today, every American's had covid a dozen times, probably, and we built up immunity. I think that's why that both things are true. It was a miracle. Warp speed was a miracle. What President Trump and his team did, and it saved millions of lives, most likely, but it's also true that it probably killed some people. Like most vaccines do, there is a death rate associated. So, both things are true. Anything else you want to clear up on the morbidity, mortality of covid and covid vaccines.

KENNEDY: Well, I think you just cleared it up. The covid vaccine was critical. President Trump's leadership got it to us. When our society was locked down, it allowed us to open up. It was, as I said, perfectly matched to a virus that was new in the experience of humanity. And so, it was a miracle.

Right now, we're dealing with completely different circumstances, where the virus has mutated, where it's much less dangerous, where there's a lot of natural immunity and herd immunity. And so, the calculus is different and it's complicated. And you know, if you just want to turn everything into a sound bite, it makes it, you know, you can't have a grownup conversation.

But you know, there were more reports to theirs, which is the only surveillance system that we have of injuries and deaths from that vaccine that all vaccines put together in history. We have to acknowledge that there was a cause. We acknowledge that there was a benefit.