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Senators Grill RFK Jr. Amid CDC Chaos, Vaccine Policy Turmoil. Aired 12:30-1p ET
Aired September 04, 2025 - 12:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[12:30:00]
ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR., HHS SECRETARY: ?But, you know, there were more reports to theirs, which is the only surveillance system that we have of injuries and deaths from that vaccine than all vaccines put together in history. So we have to acknowledge that there was a cause -- we acknowledge that there was a benefit.
We can't quantify either one because of the day -- data chaos at CDC, and that's all I'm saying. And they think I'm being evasive because I won't make a kind of a statement that's almost religious in nature. Did it save a million lives? Well, there's no data to support that.
There may be data -- you know, there's no study that -- there's modeling studies, there's faulty data. I'm not going to sign on to something if I can't make, do it to a scientific certainty. It doesn't mean that I'm, you know, any facts. It just means I'm pro-science.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. I yield back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. Senator Lujan?
SEN. BEN RAY LUJAN (D), NEW MEXICO: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Secretary Kennedy, Dr. Daskalakis, who recently resigned as director of the National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, his resignation letter stated he and his team were never allowed to brief you. I'm curious who you're listening to, since it's clear you're not listening to qualified experts like Dr. Daskalakis. Can you give the committee the name of the person?
KENNEDY: I don't consider Dr. Daskalakis --
LUJAN: Mr. Chair -- Mr. Secretary, the question that I have for you is, can you give the committee a name of who you're getting briefed by?
KENNEDY: I'm getting briefed by -- all the time by CDC.
LUJAN: Just a name.
KENNEDY: Dr. William Thompson's one name.
LUJAN: Thank you very much, sir. Now --
KENNEDY: But I can get you a whole list of other, it's on my schedule.
LUJAN: Mr. Secretary, that's not a hard question. You know a lot of answers.
KENNEDY: I'm not being evasive.
LUJAN: OK. Then you answered it. Let's go on.
Now, you said that you're soon going to release a study claiming to reveal the cause of autism. Timed, unsurprisingly, with the upcoming ASIP meeting to justify taking vaccines from Americans. Now, as you know, autism affects millions of children, so I guess you'd have the nation's top medical experts working on this.
Mr. Kennedy, you hired a man named David Geier to conduct this study. Is that correct?
KENNEDY: No.
LUJAN: Is Mr. David Geier working for HHS?
KENNEDY: He's a contractor, but he's conducting a study.
LUJAN: He's a contractor?
KENNEDY: He's a contractor.
LUJAN: Do you know who works for you, Mr. Kennedy?
KENNEDY: Yes.
LUJAN: Do you know that Mr. Geier is listed as a HHS on the employee directory as a senior data analyst, not a contractor?
KENNEDY: He's a contractor. He's not an SGE.
LUJAN: So is your website wrong?
KENNEDY: He's not an SGE. You know, I don't know what --
LUJAN: So I'm going to pull up the website for you?
KENNEDY: He's a contractor.
LUJAN: If the website says he is a senior data analyst, will you at least admit to the committee that you are wrong?
KENNEDY: Well, I don't if a contractor can be classified as a senior data analysis or not.
LUJAN: All right, sir. Is Mr. Geier a doctor?
KENNEDY: No.
LUJAN: Did you know he never went to medical school?
KENNEDY: He's not -- yes, he's not -- we're not, he's not practicing medicine.
LUJAN: Did you know that he got caught in Maryland and was charged for practicing medicine without a medical license?
KENNEDY: He was charged by a medical board, sued the medical board, and the medical board was found to have acted in actual malice and was fined $2.6 million by a judge in Maryland for doing that.
LUJAN: See? So you choose to know a lot when you want to know a lot. You're -- it's incredible, Mr. Kennedy.
KENNEDY: Senator, you're ridiculous.
LUJAN: Mr. Kennedy, it's incredible. So here's the question I have. You brought him in to do this study. I think there's no question about it.
KENNEDY: I told you he's not doing a study.
LUJAN: Is he participating in the study?
KENNEDY: No. What he's doing --
LUJAN: Is he doing any analysis in regards to this study?
KENNEDY: No. What he's doing is getting access to the Vaccine Safety Data link, which is the biggest repository for vaccine information that your friend would not give us for seven months. For seven months --
LUJAN: Mr. Secretary, let me ask you this question, just so -- because you know the answer. What is Mr. Geier doing?
KENNEDY: He is the only one -- because Congress ordered CDC to open up the VSD to him in 2002. He's the only outsider who's ever seen it. So, because CDC will not give us --
LUJAN: Mr. Secretary, is he participating in this then?
KENNEDY: No, he is --
LUJAN: But you just said he's the only dude that knows what's going on here.
KENNEDY: Do you want me to explain it to you, Senator, or do you just want to --
LUJAN: No, because you're confusing me.
KENNEDY: You just want a showboat.
LUJAN: I'll submit this --
KENNEDY: You just want a showboat for your ads or you want to hear a real answer to your question?
LUJAN: Mr. Secretary, you choose to know answers to questions with some colleagues, and --
KENNEDY: I'm willing to give you the answer. I'm willing to give you the answer.
LUJAN: Mr. Secretary, someone should have asked you, maybe President Trump should have asked you, are you a trustworthy person? And we should have waited for an answer, then. Let's move on.
KENNEDY: I don't even know what you're talking about.
LUJAN: Mr. Secretary --
KENNEDY: You're talking gibberish.
[12:35:07]
LUJAN: Mr. Secretary, let me speak slowly and clearly so that you can understand me through my New Mexico accent --
KENNEDY: And then give me a chance to answer.
LUJAN: Does this help? Can you understand me?
KENNEDY: Yes.
LUJAN: Appreciate that. Mr. Secretary, yes or no, did you hire Mr. Geier to do this study?
KENNEDY: No.
LUJAN: Mr. Chairman -- well, let me ask -- maybe we'll just get a good answer here. Mr. Secretary, will you commit to sharing the protocols used for the autism study with Congress and to the public?
KENNEDY: They're public.
LUJAN: Will you commit to giving it to this committee by the end of the week?
KENNEDY: No, not because --
LUJAN: Will you commit to give us?
KENNEDY: That's not the way it works.
LUJAN: Will you commit --
KENNEDY: You don't even know what you're talking about.
LUJAN: Mr. Secretary, will you commit to sharing the protocols for this study by the end of the month?
KENNEDY: We already have --
LUJAN: You just said it's public.
KENNEDY: We put out the notice of funding opportunities and then the scientists from all the world.
LUJAN: You're not understanding me. Let me speak clearly again.
KENNEDY: No, you're not understanding how the world works.
LUJAN: Do you understand what the protocols are --
KENNEDY: Senator --
LUJAN: Do you understand what they are?
KENNEDY: The scientists who are doing the study --
LUJAN: Yes.
KENNEDY: -- submit the protocol.
LUJAN: OK, so you know what they are.
KENNEDY: That's not coming from us.
LUJAN: OK. So will you commit to sharing those protocols with this committee?
KENNEDY: Well, anybody can get ahold of the protocol. It's published with the study.
LUJAN: Mr. Chairman, what I'd like to ask is for your commitment here -- I'll send a letter to the Secretary. I'll ask for support from the leadership of this committee to ask for those protocols. If those protocols are not given to this committee --
KENNEDY: Anybody can get the protocols.
LUJAN: Mr. Secretary, I'm not talking to you. Mr. Chairman, what I'm asking --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the protocols are public, we can work with you to get --
LUJAN: What I'm asking, Mr. Chairman, is that if those protocols are not given to this committee, I'm asking for your agreement that we follow through with the subpoena to get them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I will not agree to the subpoena, anything. Let's see what happens.
LUJAN: But Mr. Chairman, you'll help me get them if they're available publicly?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
LUJAN: I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Kennedy, with all the questions here today, people just want to know the truth. When -- KENNEDY: I don't think so.
LUJAN: Mr. Secretary -- you don't think so? Thank you.
KENNEDY: I don't think so.
LUJAN: I hope everyone recording that got that because there explains the Secretary's tenure here. Look, two young ladies in Las Cruces, New Mexico to Town Hall recently gave me the starfish pin. I was going to give it to you today, but after your questioning today, I don't think you deserve it.
Because what this represents is to remember that every one of us can make a difference, sir, to something as small as a starfish on a beach that maybe got washed up, you throw it back in the ocean. You might not save them all, but you can save one.
I'm sorry that you're not worthy of this nice little pin, sir, is a nice reminder. I'm going to pray for you. Secretary Kennedy. I hope we do better. I want you to do better. But today was a failure for you, man.
I yield back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Warnock?
WARNOCK: Thank you, brother Chair.
SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK (D), GEORGIA: Less than a month ago, we received the heartbreaking news that a gunman opened fire at the CDC campus in Atlanta, Georgia. This obviously is my neck of the woods. This is heart wrenching for all Americans, but for those of us especially who live in that area.
A DeKalb County Police Officer David Rose was killed. The shots hit buildings on campus and at least 180 places narrowly. Missing the CDC's Daycare Center. Law enforcement recovered nearly 500 shell casings. Clearly, he came to do a lot of damage.
It's a miracle, and thanks to the quick action of Metro Atlanta and state law enforcement, more people were not killed. The Georgia Bureau of Investigation announced that prior to the attack, the gunman, the gunman expressed discontent with the COVID vaccine. And, quote, "wanted to make the public aware" of his distrust of the vaccines.
Secretary Kennedy, I assume you are aware of these disturbing reports of the gunman's motives?
KENNEDY: Yes.
WARNOCK: And, you know, I understand that some people may have concerns about new medical breakthroughs, but those people don't have the world's top medical experts working under them. You've been over HHS for seven months now. Have you ever been briefed by CDC's career immunization officials to discuss your concerns?
KENNEDY: I've -- and, by the way, everybody -- every member of this panel has criticized --
WARNOCK: Sir --
KENNEDY: -- President Trump and demonized him.
WARNOCK: -- I only have three -- have you ever been briefed?
KENNEDY: Are you complicit in the assassination attempt on President Trump?
WARNOCK: Sir, I'm asking the questions. You are the witness. It's a simple yes or no question. Have you ever been briefed by CDC's career immunization officials ?to discuss their concerns?
[12:40:11]
KENNEDY: Yes, yes, I have.
WARNOCK: What was the answer?
KENNEDY: Yes.
WARNOCK: You have been briefed by CDC --
KENNEDY: Yes.
WARNOCK: -- officials the career immunization officials to express your -- OK.
KENNEDY: Yes. The senior vaccine safety scientist, for example.
WARNOCK: Have you ever been to the CDC as secretary before the shooting on August 8th?
KENNEDY: Have I ever been there as secretary?
WARNOCK: Have you been there as secretary before the shooting?
KENNEDY: No.
WARNOCK: OK. Let's return to the shooting in the aftermath. Secretary Kennedy, I'm about to ask you a series of yes or no questions about the events of the past month. And I would appreciate just a yes or no response. You called Dr. Monarez to your office on August 25th for a meeting. Is that correct? Yes or no?
KENNEDY: I -- it could be. I just don't know the date. I'd have to check my calendar.
WARNOCK: Was Jim O'Neill, the man you just appointed as acting director of CDC --
KENNEDY: Yes.
WARNOCK: -- in the room on whatever date you met with him, since you can't recall, was he in the room -- KENNEDY: Yes.
WARNOCK: -- when you met with Dr. Monarez? In that meeting, did you criticize Dr. Monarez for her statements to CDC following the shooting where she said, quote, "misinformation can be dangerous"?
KENNEDY: I'm not -- I don't believe so. I have no recollection of that.
WARNOCK: You don't believe you criticized her?
KENNEDY: Oh, I criticized her.
WARNOCK: You -- did you criticize her for --
KENNEDY: Not for that, so --
WARNOCK: Did you criticize her --
KENNEDY: I don't know. I don't even --
WARNOCK: Did you criticize her statements to CDC workers following the shooting?
KENNEDY: Did I what?
WARNOCK: Did you demand that she fire career scientists or public experts at the CDC?
KENNEDY: Yes.
WARNOCK: Did you demand that she accept the recommendations of your handpicked vaccine advisory panel without further review by career CDC scientists?
KENNEDY: No, I did not.
WARNOCK: You didn't ask for her commitment ahead of time that she would accept the recommendations from the advisory panel. You're denying that?
KENNEDY: No. What I asked her about is she had made a statement that she was going to not sign on. And I wanted clarification about that.
WARNOCK: Did you tell her to accept the advisory panel's recommendations?
KENNEDY: I told her I didn't want her to have a rule that she's not going to sign onto it.
WARNOCK: Did you say that the CDC was, quote, "the most corrupt federal agency in the history of the world?"
KENNEDY: Not the history of the world, but definitely --
WARNOCK: Did you say -- KENNEDY: -- within HHS.
WARNOCK: Did you say --
KENNEDY: I did not say that, but I did say it's the most corrupt agency in HHS and maybe the government.
WARNOCK: So you called the CDC corrupt. Did you say that CDC staff are, quote, "horrible people?"
KENNEDY: Horrible people?
WARNOCK: Did you say that they're killing children and they don't care?
KENNEDY: No.
WARNOCK: OK. I think that we all have a history of listening to you and these answers, but you're on the record for a number of these statements. Despite your lack of credentials and expertise, clearly, you have an agenda, it is a threat to the public health of the American people. It's clear that you are carrying out your extremist beliefs which is why you attempted to fire Dr. Monarez.
KENNEDY: Senator --
WARNOCK: Sir --
KENNEDY: -- we're the sickest people on the world.
WARNOCK: Sir, I'm not -- I'm --
KENNEDY: We're the sickest people on Earth.
WARNOCK: I'm speaking.
KENNEDY: How am I correct.
WARNOCK: Secretary Kennedy, we -- for the first time, we're seeing deaths from children from measles. We haven't seen that in two decades. We're seeing that under your watch. You are a hazard to the health of the American people.
KENNEDY: Can I respond to that, Senator?
WARNOCK: You -- No, I'm -- I claim back my time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need to wrap up.
WARNOCK: You are a hazard to the health of the American people. I think that you ought to resign. And if you don't resign, the president of the United States who put forward Operation Warp Speed, which worked, should fire you.
Thank you so much.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Welch?
SEN. PETER WELCH (D), VERMONT: Mr. Chairman, thank you. I want to sum up and I want to make three points. First, we have a healthcare affordability crisis in this country. And second, Secretary Kennedy's policies is making that affordability crisis worse, not better. And third, Mr. Chairman, the United States Senate is not doing its job.
Healthcare, citizens of the United States, our employers, our taxpayers, and our families pay the most and get the least that has been persistent and chronic, and it's not being addressed, it's being aggravated. Let me be specific. In Vermont, a family of four that makes $82,000 in income with premium support on Obamacare now pays $6,970 for their healthcare premium.
[12:45:13]
That is going to increase $23,000 to $30,000 that is unaffordable. It's shocking and it's cruel. The Big, Beautiful Bill that we're talking about, Vermonters are going to lose -- 45,000 families lose healthcare. That is going to be a hammer blow to our hospitals because those folks who lose healthcare don't get a guarantee. They won't get sick.
And they're going to show up at our community hospitals. Our community hospitals are going to treat them and they aren't going to be compensated. And it's why Vermont Community Hospitals are on a financial thin ice, and that's true that about 338 hospitals around our country are in danger of closing.
Second, Mr. Chairman, I believe the Secretary made assurances to this committee and he has not kept the promises he made. Prices have not come down, they've gone up. He assured Senator Cassidy that he would not change the standards for vaccine review.
Yet since his confirmation, all 17 members of the Vaccine Advisory Board have been fired by him. His limited the use of COVID-19 vaccine, and he has inexplicitly inexplicably canceled $500 million in vaccine research and funding. So, you know, I'm not surprised Stephen Miller credited you with being the crown jewel of the Cabinet.
In my observation about the crown jewel of the Cabinet and the policies of folks who get rewarded are the ones who fire those in service, that speak truth the power. Susan Monarez, we've gone over that fired because she refused to fire herself, staff without cause, and refused to rubber stamp changes to the vaccine schedule without data.
The head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics was fired because she gave a report with honest numbers about the job report. CIA Russia expert who've been there for 30 years fired after the meeting with Putin. So Mr. President, that is serious and worrisome.
But I want to finally end by challenging us in the United States Senate to do our job. We have a constitutional responsibility to be a check-in balance in the fear of our founders was that there would be a concentration of power in one branch, and that would lead to catastrophic consequences for our country.
And what has Congress done on oversight and advice and consent? We have confirmed a vaccine denier on tariffs. We've given up our constitutional responsibility on appropriations. We're bending the need to an administration that is rescinding and decided what to spend and what not to spend despite what our law in a bipartisan way was passed.
We cannot cede power. And there are consequences. A crumbling healthcare system, a deficit exploding and our allies losing faith in us.
You know, Mr. Secretary, in the past, you have accused some of my colleagues of being in the pocket of pharma, PharmaShells (ph). You did that with Senator Warren today. You've done it in the past with Senator Bennet and Senator Sanders.
You are not at PharmaShell (ph). But I believe we have to fight pharma and bring down the prices. And Senator Cortez Masto spoke about the legislation that we now have that would reverse the $5 billion handout to Big Pharma in the One, Big Beautiful Bill.
And when I leave today with Senator Wyden, we are going to go to the floor and seek unanimous consent to pass our legislation that would reverse that giveaway. And I ask you to put your policy in your body where your mouth is and join us in supporting that bill to restore price negotiation power. So those pharma prices can come down from being the highest in the world to something within range of reason.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you very much.
Senator Young?
SEN. TODD YOUNG (R), INDIANA: Welcome to the committee, Mr. Secretary. It's my intention not to raise my voice and to give you an opportunity to respond to an inquiry.
[12:50:01]
I'm going to begin with Long-COVID. You shouldn't be surprised to you during each of our meetings, we've discussed my interest in making sure ?our government does its part to address this challenge, which afflicts by most recent estimates over 20 million Americans.
They have been diagnosed. There are a number of others we know that go undiagnosed. Over 400 million people worldwide suffer from this at a cost of $1 trillion a year which is roughly 1 percent of global GDP. This we know has had impacts on participation in the workforce, therefore, our own GDP.
So it's clinic -- it's a serious on a number of fronts. It's my hope we can come up with some therapeutics for this condition. One of the real barriers to that is seeing that we are able to launch more clinical trials and I want to get your update on how the clinical trials are going, what plans you might have in the works to increase the number of clinical trials as it pertains to Long-COVID.
KENNEDY: Yes. Senator, the -- there was a project funded, a Long-COVID project at NIH. It -- there was a huge amount of money spent on it. It yielded nothing. And so --
YOUNG: I agree with that.
KENNEDY: Right. And I think you know that we are doing now a different approach. We're launching a Long-COVID consortium. We're bringing together the best doctors in the country who have developed reputations for being able to treat Long-COVID.
And one of them is a doctor that actually --
YOUNG: Dr. Bruce Patterson, yes.
KENNEDY: Yes, Bruce Patterson and then Dr. Jordan Vaughn, also from Florida. There's a number of them who are doing spectacular things, where patients are reporting extraordinary progress. We want to get them all involved in all in one room. We want to identify the protocols that are working.
This is something that did not happen during COVID. It was all Ivory Tower science, and the doctors who are on the ground were ignored. The same thing happened during the HIV crisis.
YOUNG: Yes.
KENNEDY: And we're trying to do something different, which is really --
YOUNG: So my time's limited. You mentioned Ivory Tower and so that's a segue into -- let me -- statistic that I've become familiar with over the years. It takes roughly 18 years for proven interventions, pharmacological or other types of medical interventions to wake their -- make their way out into the field.
If we assume, I think a conservative estimate, 12 to 15 years until we have any really acceptable therapeutics for a Long-COVID, that's a cheerful estimate. Plus the 18 years until it finds its way into clinical practice.
People roughly my age will, will pass actuarily speaking, they will pass before there's any acceptable therapeutics. So we need to accelerate --
DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: OK, we're going to continue to monitor this very lengthy hearing as it seems to be winding down. Welcome to Inside Politics.
You have been watching a highly contentious hearing with major implications for nothing short of public health in the United States of America. For nearly three hours, Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. didn't just field questions from senators, he lobbed insults, which many of them gave right back.
Now, there are going to be lots of clips that you're going to see online, lots of viral moments, but here's what's important to keep in mind. This was not just a run of the mill political food fight. This is senators from both parties, Democrats, and many Republicans trying to get basic answers from the Secretary of Health and Human Services about significant changes to the CDC, radical changes to vaccine policy.
Here's just a bit.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
KENNEDY: Most Americans will be able to get it from their pharmacy for a --
SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: No, the question is everyone who wants it. That was your promise, Mr. Kennedy, not mine.
KENNEDY: I know, I didn't -- I never promised that I was going to recommend products for which there is no indication.
WARREN: When you said that --
KENNEDY: And I know you've taken $855,000 from pharmaceutical companies, Senator.
Evading the question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You -- no, I'm asking the questions here --
KENNEDY: You're evading that question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm asking the questions, Mr. Kennedy --
KENNEDY: I ask you a question.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm asking the questions for Mr. Kennedy on behalf of parents and schools and teachers all over the United States of America who deserve so much better than your leadership.
SEN. MAGGIE HASSAN (D), NEW HAMPSHIRE: You did it behind closed doors.
KENNEDY: No, the data's all public.
HASSAN: Now parents who decide that they do want their children --
KENNEDY: You're just making stuff up, Senator.
HASSAN: I'm not making stuff.
KENNEDY: You're just making stuff up.
HASSAN: You know, sometimes when you make an accusation, it's kind of a confession, Mr. Kennedy.
[12:55:04]
LUJAN: You choose to know answers to questions with some colleagues --
KENNEDY: I'm willing to give you the answer. I'm willing to give you the answer.
LUJAN: Mr. Secretary, someone should have asked you. Maybe President Trump should have asked you, are you a trustworthy person? And we should have waited for an answer then. Let's move on.
KENNEDY: I don't even know what you're talking about.
LUJAN: Mr. Secretary --
KENNEDY: You're talking gibberish.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
BASH: Well, let's bring in the one and only CNN Chief Medical Correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Sanjay, I don't even know where to start. You and I were texting. I'll just say thank goodness you were here.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: I think if you were an American watching this -- these last three hours, you would be completely confused. You would have been assaulted by misinformation and disinformation. You wouldn't know if COVID vaccines cause more deaths versus COVID itself.
You might think antidepressants lead to increased suicides and mass shootings. People called each other liar over and over again. I mean, the term that we would hear very sporadically, it was used so many times today.
There were just -- it was just very hard to piece together. I think -- one thing I think is important is that there's constantly been this tension, Dana, between the Make America Healthy Again movement, which I think a lot of people agree with fundamentally because we're not a very healthy country.
But it is so entangled with this discussion around vaccines. And I think anytime, you know, Secretary Kennedy was sort of asked about vaccines, he would sort of rely on this idea that we're not a very healthy country. Those are two distinct things.
I was very confused by many of these things. And I think one thing I agree with Secretary Kennedy on, I don't think a lot of times they were looking for answers for him on specific questions. One of the big ones was, what was the real value of Operation Warp Speed? What did that really do?
President Trump, others have said this was one of the greatest scientific achievements. Senator Cassidy said he should -- President Trump should be nominated for a Nobel Prize. Let me just show you something really quick, because I think when it comes to data, people say, look, we don't trust the corporations to give us data. We don't trust the government to give us data.
And we run into this as reporters all the time. I don't know if we have this data from the Commonwealth Fund. A lot of times we search for data from other organizations that are not taking funding from private or governmental organizations if we don't have it.
I can sort of tell you the numbers here --
BASH: There it is.
GUPTA: -- but basically -- so between December 2020 and November 2022, what did the vaccinations do in the United States? Prevented 18.5 million hospitalizations and avoided 3.2 million deaths. I put this up, Dana, because again, trying to cut through some of the clutter here.
Everyone's going to keep saying, well, Pfizer's presenting that data. I don't trust that CDC's presenting that data. I don't trust it. So who are you going to trust? Who are you going to trust? And I think that's fundamentally what this is going to be about over the next -- who knows how long, Dana?
BASH: Yes. And even again, if you had to really listen for it. Even at one point, Secretary Kennedy admitted to Bernie Sanders, I have no idea how many lives were saved by the COVID vaccine, but quite a few.
I just quickly want to -- we played a lot of Democrats. There are Republicans who are doctors and even some who are not doctors who were trying to get answers from Secretary Kennedy, particularly Bill Cassidy, who is not just a doctor. He is the doctor who voted yes, and he allowed RFK Jr. effectively with his vote to become HHS Secretary.
Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEOCLIP)
SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R), LOUISIANA: Do you agree with me that the President deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed?
KENNEDY: Absolutely, Senator. That's a phenomenal.
CASSIDY: So let me ask -- but you just told Senator Bennet that the COVID vaccine killed more people than COVID. That was a statement --
KENNEDY: I did not say that.
CASSIDY: I would say effectively we're denying people vaccine. I --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Cantwell.
KENNEDY: I -- you're wrong.
(END VIDEOCLIP)
BASH: So, I want you to weigh in quickly, but that last point, him saying, Senator Cassidy saying you're effectively denying people vaccines. That was a theme throughout this, which he denied. But you say it, Sanjay, I mean, my impression, I have some people here on the set who say they can't get vaccines for their little kids because of the confusion of what HHS is saying.
GUPTA: There are many states including D.C. where it is very hard, if not impossible, to get a COVID vaccine right now. And that is because pharmacists are relying on the Advisory Committee to make these recommendations.
The Advisory Committee, as you know, is dismantled. And then we're going to see if there's even a meeting sometime later this month. But right now, pharmacists are sort of bound in many states to what those ASIP recommendations are. Could you go to a doctor? Could you pay for it for yourself? Could you get it off-label? Perhaps.
But as was pointed out several times today, it is far harder today than it was even a month ago, or certainly a year ago, to get the shot if you want it. And that that really goes for ?anybody in the country, at least in these states. And it's a patchwork, you know? So it's really challenging and very confusing, far more confusing than it needs to be.
We know the specifics that he said. It's no longer recommended for pregnant people or healthy children. Pregnant people, by the way, are often -- they're at increased risk, and he ended the EUA as well.
BASH: Yes. And again, it's not -- we're not talking about mandates, we're talking about availability --
GUPTA: Availability, exactly.
BASH: -- two very, very different things.
Thank you, Sanjay. Appreciate it.
Thank you for joining this very abbreviated Inside Politics. CNN News Central starts right now.
