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Fired CDC Director Testifies Before Senate Health Committee; Monarez: Kennedy Told Me To Fire Career Officials Without Cause; Murkowski: "Worried" About Trust In Public Health Institutions. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired September 17, 2025 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:00:00]

DR. SUSAN MONAREZ, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: I would highly encourage all of us, whether it's congressional action or others, to make sure that we do have the appropriate transparency and accountability measures. The ACIP deliberations are critically important, and they impact real lives. And so, the more that we can do to ensure that we are achieving radical transparency, accountability and evidence-based decision making, I would highly encourage it.

DR. DEBRA HOURY, FORMER CDC CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER: And FACA does have provisions, the Federal Advisory Committee Act. And so, I do think this is the perfect opportunity for Congress to ensure that CDC is following those processes. Those processes are there for a reason to ensure that there's transparency gold standard science, and that the public has the opportunity to engage.

SEN. JOHN HICKENLOOPER (D-CO): Right, transparency becomes one of the keys. We're talking about trust here and without transparency, you're never going to have trust in the modern world.

HOURY: Correct.

HICKENLOOPER: In terms of pandemic preparedness, Dr. Houry, I'll talk to you, and I love seeing where you did your training in Denver, Colorado, Denver Health, which is my medical provider, just so we're completely clear.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought you meant Tulane, but that's OK.

HOURY: Love both.

HICKENLOOPER: I want my nine seconds back. Dr. Houry, you know, given the layoffs somewhere, the process of over 2000 employees have been fired or attempted to be fired. In your testimony, you mentioned, the CDC has seen a 60 percent decrease in flu samples and a 70 percent decrease in covid samples. That's alarming. That's striking to me. What's the reduction? What's that attributed to?

HOURY: So, a lot of that is attributed to withdrawing from the World Health Organization. Many countries don't view us as the same level of partner. That's something that can be overcome, but it takes leadership to really proactively reestablish those partnerships so that we're not flying blind. We know what pathogens are out there.

HICKENLOOPER: Right. And I'll just leave a question. What keeps you up at night? What keeps you both up at night? Very concisely.

MONAREZ: The next outbreak, and I don't believe that we'll be prepared.

HOURY: I'm concerned about the future of CDC and public health in our country, given what I have seen, if we continue down this path, we are not prepared, not just for pandemics, but for preventing chronic health disease, and we're going to see kids dying of vaccine preventable diseases.

HICKENLOOPER: Thank you both very much. Appreciate. Yield back to the Chair.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Murray -- Moody, I'm sorry.

SEN. ASHLEY MOODY (R-FL): Thank you. Mr. Chairman, thank you for being here. My mic is on. Maybe I wasn't speaking loud enough. I have to say, I'm a new senator here. So, this is all very troubling to me, but I'm really shocked that most people come and introduce their families. I'm really shocked that we have behind you, anti-Trump lawyers that you've invited.

Do you want to introduce your lawyers that you brought with you today? I'm just noticing that they're eating with your testimony. They keep handing you notes and whispering in your ears, so I figured you should probably, for the record, put their names in the record.

MONAREZ: My lawyers have been publicly associated with me already.

MOODY: So, you're refusing to acknowledge the attorneys that are present in this hearing room, helping you with your testimony?

MONAREZ: The attorneys that I have been--

MOODY: I mean, I've been in the legal world for a long time, and attorneys generally aren't shy about stating appearances and saying when they're here, helping clients. So, are you -- is there some reason you don't want to introduce the senators to the lawyers that are here and put their names on the record?

MONAREZ: Yeah, I think--

MOODY: I mean, they're passing you notes. So, I think it's fair for the record to know who's passing you notes while you testify. And I really -- I'm really didn't mean that. I'm trying to be adversarial here. I just think for the record, it's probably good to know who's passing notes and whispering in your ear.

MONAREZ: I think my counsel is happy to follow up with you. I was hoping that we would stay focused on the critical issues related to--

MOODY: We're at a hearing because you called the chairman and talked about these issues, and the chairman has called a hearing, and now you're here testifying, and you have attorneys giving you notes and whispering in your ear, presumably, about your testimony. So, for the record, who is here with you, helping you with your testimony? I mean, look, I'm a judge. I'm a former federal prosecutor. I was attorney general. I was a lawyer, like this is not an abnormal thing.

MONAREZ: Yeah. My attorneys have been publicly associated with me.

MOODY: What attorneys are here with you at this hearing, assisting with your testimony and whispering in your ear? Please state their names for the record.

MONAREZ: My two attorneys that are in the room would be happy to follow up with you after the discussion.

MOODY: So, Mr. Chairman, I would like the record to reflect that you have called a hearing of two people who have hired anti-Trump lawyers. When did you hire them?

[12:05:00]

MONAREZ: I sought their counsel, I believe, on the day around, on or before the day I was fired.

MOODY: And is now refusing, now that they're in the courtroom and helping with testimony and passing notes on what to say, refusing to give their names to those of us that may not know their names. I mean, is there a reason you don't want to give their names? Are you--

MONAREZ: No.

MOODY: --afraid that it's going to come unraveled, that you have this whole network of people that's trying to embarrass the president or go after the president, and now you are joining this group. Why don't you want to give their names?

MONAREZ: Their names have been publicly associated with them. They issued public remarks early on.

MOODY: Let me ask your colleague. I've noticed they've also been giving you notes too and whispering to you. Will you state their names?

MONAREZ: So, their names are Abbe Lowell and Mark Zaid.

MOODY: That wasn't too hard. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. I really was genuinely asking so that the record was clear. But now I'm wondering what else we're trying to hide, and I'll go back to you. Did you plan to coordinate -- and I'll go back to the original witness. Did you plan to coordinate this public spectacle surrounding your firing.

MONAREZ: No.

MOODY: And have you coordinated with Dr. Houry? Am I pronouncing that correctly, and I apologize if I'm not. Did you coordinate with her or anyone else that you worked with surrounding your leaving? MONAREZ: I did not coordinate with anyone surrounding my leaving. I was terminated abruptly.

MOODY: So, you had no advance plan to write an op-ed, do a public hearing. I noticed that you immediately called our chairman.

MONAREZ: I had committed during my confirmation process, several elements, including integrity, transparency, working with Congress.

MOODY: But you had no advance plan with any colleagues.

MONAREZ: I had no advance plan with any colleagues.

MOODY: Dr, excuse me, Dr. Houry, if there wasn't an advance plan, did you tell a reporter we agreed to do this together?

HOURY: Myself, Dr. Jernigan and Dr. Daskalakis.

MOODY: Agreed to do this all together?

HOURY: Once Dr. Monarez was being terminated, the three of us knew that we could not remain, given our ethical concerns and commitment to scientific integrity.

SEN. BILL CASSIDY (R-LA): UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just want to make a brief comment as my name was invoked. As the chairman of the committee with jurisdiction over the CDC that favorably reported Dr. Monarez as the CDC director, it is entirely appropriate for someone with oversight concerns to contact my office, or me, or frankly, any of us.

Upon receiving outreach from Dr. Monarez, I contacted both the secretary and the White House to inquire what was happening and to express concerns about what was alleged. As soon as the director was fired, the HELP committee began reviewing the situation, as it is our responsibility and any and all communications with the witnesses was conducted by health staff in coordination with attorneys.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I-VT): Mr. Chairman, may I comment on that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.

SANDERS: Very briefly, I find it rather astounding that anyone is concerned that government heads of agencies talk to the elected officials of the United States of America. That is what they are supposed to do. Thank you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is now Senator Blunt Rochester term.

SEN. LISA BLUNT ROCHESTER (D-DE): Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanking ranking member for reminding us of our oversight responsibilities. And I also want to thank the two witnesses for your strength, for your integrity and for not staying silent. The fact that you were even finding out important information through tweets. It's not the way we operate. That's not the way we keep our country safe and our public's health -- keep our public healthy. And so, I want to first, thank you both. I know you both mentioned as scientists, as doctors and as parents, that's why you're here, that's why you care. And so, last week, I led an in-depth discussion with experts on how Secretary Kennedy's vaccine policies are creating a lot of confusion in this country and harming families.

And I heard from a pediatrician, a parent, a school nurse and two former a CIP members who were fired by Secretary Kennedy. I'm extremely concerned that the secretary has now stacked the committee with people committed to his agenda. As you said, the concern is you can't -- the focus shouldn't be on ideology, but on evidence and on science.

[12:10:00]

To put them there, Secretary Kennedy accused former members of being, quote, plagued with conflicts of interest, and used that as a pretext. A question for both of you. Did you ever observe anything that cast doubt on the scientific abilities of those members.

HOURY: I would actually just state, you know, Dr. Monarez and I have worked together when she was acting director. We posted conflicts of interest for the past two decades of the ACIP members to really embrace what the president had said around radical transparency and to dispel the conflicts of interest.

We have a rule at ACIP. We did when I was there. I can't speak to now. But if you had any sort of bias, you recused yourself from that discussion and that vote. And if you had significant biases or conflicts of interest, you weren't included on ACIP.

ROCHESTER: Were you ever present with any evidence of conflicts of interest that impaired the decision making of any ACIP members, the former members?

HOURY: I was not, but I would just note that I can't speak as much to the current ACIP members. One was an expert witness against Merck, but participate in discussion on Merck.

ROCHESTER: Thank you. And Dr. Monarez, if there's anything you want to contribute. I'm trying to understand if there are any reasons that we should think that these individuals should have been fired? You could say, no, I don't know.

MONAREZ: I had the ACIP members that were fired after the April meeting. I had not interacted with them. I had no, you know, preconceived notions.

ROCHESTER: And Dr. Houry?

HOURY: And I said, I can't speak to them individually, but I can tell you is, when you look at the members, you look at geographic representation. I know that one was from the Midwest, focused on immunocompromised patients because that was a need to fill. You look at it as a whole of expertise, and that's what ACIP was. ROCHESTER: And I want to go back to something, the hepatitis B shot keeps coming up. And I want to know, Dr. Monarez, is there anything that you want to clarify or say more about this? I mean, it's my understanding that before 1991 when not all babies were vaccinated, about 20,000 babies were infected each year, and that after the CDC recommendations in the 1990s, that dropped by 99 percent, this terribly contagious disease.

And the reason why we test everybody is because certain moms might not have been tested and don't know that they have it. So, can you -- is there anything else you want to add because I know this has come up numerous times?

MONAREZ: I think that's -- those are consistent with the information that I have associated with hepatitis B, and it's the promise of the vaccine. I do want to touch on one thing that was brought up in the context of that discussion, that CDC forces people to get vaccinated. CDC doesn't force anyone to get vaccinated. CDC provides recommendations supported by evidence, to allow parents and physicians and others to make a choice, a decision in their -- in the best interest of themselves or the health of their families.

ROCHESTER: And one last thing I want to clarify as well. We talk a lot about ACIP members, but behind the scenes were these work groups -- these working groups, the American Medical Association, the American College of Physicians, the American Geriatrics Society, American Osteopathic Association, the National Medical Association, the National Foundation for Infectious Diseases, it goes on.

These were the groups behind the scenes, making these recommendations, and they were -- to your testimony, Dr. Houry pulled back and said, no, thank you. We don't need your help. Is that correct? Is that accurate?

HOURY: Yes, they were pulled off the work groups. And I do think when we have experts, whether it's from societies or just with specific expertise. It's very much needed, and these organizations help with implementation. And we say, talk to your doctor. So, we need those doctor organizations participating.

ROCHESTER: As a grandmother and a mom, I just want to say thank you for the work that you do and have done. And these are unsung heroes, people behind the scenes, just like those thousands of CDC employees, those who are fired and those who remain and still need our support. Thank you and I yield back.

LISA MURKOWSKI (R-AK): Thank you both for being here to testify this afternoon. I think it was you, Dr. Monarez, you made the comment in your testimony, that this is about the future of the trust in public health and I really feel that's where we are today.

[12:15:00]

There's been a lot of -- I don't want to call it, he said, she said, back and forth, but there's been a lot that folks have tried to drill down on exactly your comments and exactly Secretary Kennedy's and you also made the point that this is not about you, it's about trust in our public health institutions, because that's what I'm worried most about.

I don't know you, other than the few times that we've had an opportunity to visit. I've just met you, Dr. Houry, I'm sure you're both good women, working hard, doing good things for others. But really, this is about trust in our institutions, and this is where I feel, we are really, really vulnerable right now.

We've all been back and forth with these votes, and so I don't want to try to ask many of the same questions that have been asked. But we have a structure within the CDC that is your career, public health officials. They provide the institutional knowledge, the scientific expertise and very often continuity between administrations. I think Dr. Houry, you said you had worked across six different administrations or?

HOURY: Four administrations, six directors.

MURKOWSKI: So, I mean, you provide some level of continuity, that bridge between the political leadership that comes in and then the agency's scientific mission. And I think -- I hope and correct me if I'm wrong, that you seek to ensure that the policy decisions are grounded in public health expertise, while also meeting the goals of the administration.

So, Dr. Monarez, when you said yes to President Trump, when you said yes to Secretary Kennedy, you were also signing on to the goals of the administration here. I'm concerned that when career scientists then are excluded, maybe completely excluded from the director's office, what happens? Who does then provide the scientific expertise, this institutional memory that is needed to guide the agencies?

I think we've heard from both of you that there was very little interaction between you, Dr. Monarez and the secretary. And Dr. Houry, I think you have also testified that those who would ordinarily brief the secretary aren't -- have not been present. But also, to the point that was just made about the work groups, that no work groups other than the covid working group were basically assigned to this upcoming ACIP meeting. Is that correct?

So, what happens then, to this scientific mission when there are none of the career public health professionals that are in these positions to advise on the policy, to protect the scientific integrity and really to ensure some level of continuity of operations when you're moving through a transition like this. Dr. Houry?

HOURY: So, I think continuity is important. I certainly think openness to change and supporting the administration's priorities are important. I was selected to be the transition lead for the agency because I was known as somebody that could embrace both administrations and help implement policies. That was my goal. I'm the last or was the last career left in the office of the director. I have no doubt that my role will be--

MURKOWSKI: So, may I stop you there? You're the last career. So then, are you saying that everyone that is remaining--

HOURY: And the office of the director is a political, yes.

MURKOWSKI: Is a political? And so, there is nobody then that is pro -- there must be somebody that is providing that career science then.

HOURY: A level down, we do have center directors, although 80 percent are now acting because they've been fired, resigned or retired.

MURKOWSKI: Dr. Monarez, were you ever directed to not speak to career officials? Was that a directive that you received?

MONAREZ: That was.

MURKOWSKI: And when was that -- when were you directed to not speak to career officials?

MONAREZ: Yeah. That was that -- that transpired over the course of August 25 and the engagements with Secretary Kennedy. And that I was directed to only work with the political appointees that he had put in place at CDC, and not to speak or work with career scientists.

MURKOWSKI: My time has expired, and I will turn to Senator Kaine.

[12:20:00]

SEN. TIM KAINE (D-VA): Thank you, Senator Murkowski, and thanks to our witnesses for being here today. Dr. Monarez, I owe you an apology. When you were here for your confirmation hearing, I questioned you very significantly, not on your qualifications. You got over the qualifications bar easily. But my worries about the direction of HHS made me question you very significantly on your backbone--

MONAREZ: You did.

KAINE: --a trait that is not in long supply in this town. And then when I voted against your confirmation, I cited that as the reason. Again, no concern about your qualifications, I had concern about your backbone, and I was wrong, and I apologize to you for being wrong. I think it's important when you're wrong to admit you're wrong.

I want to ask you a question to follow up on an answer you gave to Senator Baldwin, and I'm not sure I heard it right. But were you instructed by the secretary of HHS to not speak to senators?

MONAREZ: I was instructed to not speak directly with senators.

KAINE: And was that also in the August 25 meeting you described?

MONAREZ: That was over the course, I had several engagements with the secretary over that day and it was in one of those meetings that I was instructed.

KAINE: So, confirmed CDC director, Senate confirmed. We used to speak with the CDC director all the time during covid and during other emergencies, instructed not to speak to senators. Isn't it do I -- is my memory right? Isn't Secretary Kennedy say, he's about radical transparency.

MONAREZ: That is one of the areas he has prioritized.

KAINE: Yeah. Well, putting a gag order on a CDC director, and directing her not to speak to those who have confirmed her and to whom she is responsible for oversight is a very serious matter. I want to talk about measles and finish with a question for Dr. Houry. Just really get in the minutia about measles. 1454 cases in the U.S., four in Virginia. And I'm just going to give you about the most recent one in Virginia.

School aged child early September, five to 12 years old, measles is really contagious. Spreads through the air. You can contract measles when somebody has had it in a room, even two hours after they've gone from the room. And you often don't show symptoms for days.

When this child with measles was identified and the case was reported to public health officials, our Virginia Department of Health had to spring into action. They had to find potential exposure. The child while infected, but before demonstrating symptoms, had attended school for one day and had visited multiple healthcare facilities. In one day, 1000 Virginians were exposed to measles by this one child.

The VDH coordinated with the healthcare community and the school district to contract trace thousand people, followed up with 800 people, including babies in a NICU too young to be vaccinated, had repeated contacts with these individuals to make sure that they weren't showing symptoms. The VDH has dozens of states.

DANA BASH, CNN HOST, INSIDE POLITICS: We are going to continue to monitor this hearing. Welcome to Inside Politics. I'm Dana Bash in Washington, and you have been watching fired CDC Director Susan Monarez issue a dire warning about the future and the current situation in public health in America.

CNN chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, joins me now. So much to unpack here. I think just -- let's just start with one of the more striking things that we just heard, Sanjay, which is in a Q&A with one of the most recent senators. The question was about whether there is anybody left at the CDC who is not political, meaning somebody who is not -- who is more career and somebody who is apolitical, which is typical, more typical of the CDC? And the answer was, no.

So, my question to you is, as a physician, should Americans feel that their health and wellbeing is in a good place right now?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: It's concerning. You know, look, Dana, I mean, I'm not willing to say at this point that you shouldn't trust anything, because we don't even know what these committees are going to say. But what we do know is that this ACIP committee, this vaccine practices committee. Everyone was fired back in June. That's never happened before, according to the testimony that we heard today, and they were all replaced.

The agenda for this meeting, one of the important meetings that makes recommendations for vaccines. The agenda was set by political appointees. That has not happened before, according to the testimony, that's typically done by scientists.

The CDC director, who is now fired, was told to essentially preapprove recommendations from this committee, before those recommendations were even made, before the committee was even finalized. And according to her, without any evidence, any science or any new data to back that up.

So, it's very challenging to, sort of, you know, put that all together and understand what this is going to translate to we will see over the next couple of days. With regard to the recommendations on vaccines, I think a lot of scientists are really worried about this.

[12:25:00]

I mean, one thing, I think that gets missed in all this. I think that people who are watching this, some people may be led to believe that there is no science or evidence behind the utility of vaccines, according to the CDC itself, and this is still up on their website.

You know, over the last 30 years, 500 million illnesses have been prevented by these vaccines. 32 million hospitalizations have been prevented by these vaccines. A million deaths have been prevented by these vaccines. That doesn't get said out loud. The utility of it, which is too bad.

People often say, hey, look, where are the -- where's the trials, the placebo-controlled trials. You know, when the polio vaccine came out, which, by the way, is something that people have potentially floated as abandoning as well.

When it came out 1954, there were 200,000 people that got the vaccine, 200,000 people that didn't, and they found that it had tremendous utility in preventing polio. That was a placebo-controlled trial. These trials have been done, you know, over decades. But I think right now, people may be led to believe, watching these hearings, that there's no data, there's no evidence, there's no science behind these vaccines. And I hope that that message doesn't get lost in all this.

BASH: We have to take a quick break. But I just want to talk to you about one specific vaccine, which, of course, is the covid vaccine. You saw Senator Dr. Rand Paul have a pretty intense exchange with Dr. Monarez, specifically about covid because we all know you lived it, and you got us through it.

That covid and the vaccine, and then vaccine hesitancy and downright opposition to the covid vaccine has opened the door to what used to be just the far corners of the internet, or, you know, in this country, with regard to broader vaccine hesitancy. How much is this? What we're talking about here, what we're seeing here, really just about the covid vaccine?

GUPTA: That's an interesting question. I think the covid vaccine sort of issue comes up a lot, and it is worth pointing out something that you and I talked about was that, if you look at the overall utility of vaccines, if you look at who was hospitalized with covid, you'd find that the vast majority, 90 percent plus of people who were hospitalized, including children, were unvaccinated and a very small percentage were vaccinated. That was important.

But I think the larger point, I think you may be making, Dana, is that in some ways that may be a red herring, because, you know, thrown into this mix is potentially, you know, starting to question the utility of the polio vaccine, questioning the utility of the measles vaccine.

So, you know, I think the covid vaccine there are -- there are good discussions to have about the utility at different age groups and things like that. But I think that this is becoming much larger discussion about vaccines overall. And I think that's what's really frightening, especially given the stats that I just shared with you in terms of the progress we made over the last several decades with vaccines.

BASH: Yeah, all right. Thanks for picking up what I was putting down there. Sanjay, I want to dip back into the hearing. Senator Markwayne Mullin of Oklahoma is doing the questioning.

SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN (R-OK): When did you remove them from your floor and take away their ability to access your floor? And you know exactly what I'm talking about because you and the secretary spoke about that.

MONAREZ: You are miss-contextualizing.

MULLIN: No, I'm not. I'm asking the question, what day did you remove them?

MONAREZ: I moved -- I have one political chief of staff. I have three political chiefs of staff. I had space made for all of them in my suite.

MULLIN: When did you remove the political appointees before, or the political hires before you got there, that was there prior to you getting there. This isn't hard. I really, it's not hard. You talk in circles, and I just want an answer, because, you know.

MONAREZ: So, I had the security of my suite.

MULLIN: OK. So, let me ask you something. Your conversation with the secretary, you said that, he said, he didn't trust you.

MONAREZ: Correct.

MULLIN: You testified to that. Is that really how that conversation went? Because there's other people in the room, and I think the conversation was, can he trust you?

MONAREZ: And your answer was, he said he could not trust me.

MULLIN: No, the answer, ma'am, it was a recorded meeting, so you can testify one way, or you can prove that you're lying or giving them be honest with this committee. And I'm giving you the opportunity to be honest here, because you've been really walking around the edges and not being truthful. So, did he ask you the question, can he trust you? And your answer was?

MONAREZ: He told me, he could not trust me. And I told him, if he could not trust me, he could fire me.

MULLIN: That isn't how that conversation went, and you know that, don't you?