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Fired CDC Director Testifies Before Senate Help Committee; Dr. Monarez Says She Was Ousted for Refusing to Pre-approve Vaccine Recommendations; Ex-CDC Chief Medical Officer Testifies After Resigning in Protest. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired September 17, 2025 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00]

DR. SUSAN MONAREZ, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: He told me he could not trust me. And I told him if he could not trust me, he could fire me.

SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN, (R-OK): That isn't how that conversation went and you know that, don't you?

MONAREZ: He told me he could not trust me. And I told him if he could not trust me, he could fire me.

MULLIN: Ma'am, all we're looking for is you to be honest, and you haven't been.

MONAREZ: I do --

MULLIN: You're not even being -- you're not being honest with the conversation you're having. You're not even being honest with the timeline, and you won't even give the answers of who your attorneys were. And all we're looking for is you to be honest. If we're going to have a hearing and we're going to discuss certain things, let's make sure we're talking with someone that we can trust your answers.

It's like my kids, I tell my kids all the time, you know, one thing I want from you, I can deal with any situation we walk into as long as I know you're being 100 percent honest with me. The minute I can't tell you're being honest with me, I can't trust you for then on everything you say is questioned and you have to question you because your personality and your answers aren't correct. Therefore, I yield back.

SEN. LISA MURKOWSKI (R-AK): Senator Markey?

SEN. ED MARKEY, (D-MA): Dr. Monarez?

MONAREZ: Yes.

MARKEY: Dr. Houry, I want to thank you for being public health heroes. When you took your positions, you swore an oath to public health and safety, not to political ideology. And you kept that promise to the American people. When confronted with pressure to make decisions based on political science, you chose real science. You said clearly that vaccines work, that they are safe, and that our children and most vulnerable deserve the life saving protections that vaccines have provided for generations.

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. may put the con in conscience, but you put the science in conscience, which is where it belongs at the CDC. It is my hope that more officials within the CDC, within HHS and throughout this administration look to what you, Dr. Monarez and Dr. Houry have done, and that they feel inspired by what you have done and what you're doing here today.

In the face of political pressure and threats and misinformation and conspiracy theories, you are standing up for science, standing up for facts, standing up for the protections which our children and families need. You're standing up for what is right, and I hope that your colleagues follow you.

Before Hepatitis B vaccine was approved in the 1980s, upwards of 300,000 Americans were infected each year, including nearly 20,000 children. Thanks to Hepatitis B vaccine, annual cases are now down to roughly 22,000, a 93 percent reduction. And for children, there is now only a handful of cases each year with a total of only 13 cases in babies in 2022, down from 20,000. That is a stunning public health success.

We achieved that because every newborn gets the Hep B shot at birth. Why? Because nine out of 10 infants infected at birth become chronically infected and a quarter of them will die due to Hepatitis B. Yet this week, the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices, a panel newly filled with Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s handpicked vaccine skeptics and individuals with no vaccine or public health expertise, is expected to vote on delaying that birth dose of Hepatitis B vaccine until age four.

This would reverse decades of progress, put kids in harm's way and make countless children the victims of Secretary Kennedy's anti- vaccine quackery. Dr. Houry, do you believe that a change to that recommendation on Hepatitis B vaccine at the Advisory Committee meeting this week would be based on an objective comprehensive review of data?

DR. DEBRA HOURY, FORMER CDC CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER: So if the vote is to change it to age four, then that would not be based on data.

MARKEY: Yeah. Do you agree with that, Dr. Monarez?

MONAREZ: I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that that would be the appropriate thing to do.

MARKEY: So, yeah. So based on your interactions with Secretary Kennedy and his advisers, are Secretary Kennedy's beliefs in politics driving the change to vaccine recommendations including Hepatitis B vaccines, instead of science and children's health?

MONAREZ: That is the concern.

MARKEY: Dr. Houry? HOURY: Yes. I believe it is. I received an email, you know, suggesting that we look at Hepatitis B, shared (ph) decision making. And I think that's where I'm thankful to Senator Cassidy for really raising Hepatitis B via social media. I hope that this hearing makes ACIP reconsider this recommendation.

MARKEY: Yeah. Would you want them to reconsider the decision, Doctor?

HOURY: I would want them to keep it at birth.

[12:35:00]

I think there's a lot of moms that don't know they have hepatitis, that can then transmit it to their baby. And even if the mom is Hepatitis B negative, we don't know what the home situation is.

MARKEY: Dr. Monarez, were you or your team asked to provide any data regarding Hepatitis B and the vaccine in preparation for the upcoming ACIP meeting?

MONAREZ: So, I am not aware of any requests to myself. I would defer to Dr. Houry as well as she was overseeing.

HOURY: But we directed our staff to provide data because we thought it was important, just like we have in other meetings to where there weren't work groups, that CDC staff provide data to discussions.

MARKEY: Is that traditional practice where people are not --

HOURY: No, traditionally --

MARKEY: -- where you're not -- where experts are not being asked?

HOURY: Well, traditionally, there's work groups that develop it, but we had a case at the last meeting to where our experts developed evidence because there wasn't a work group, and we were asked by the secretary's office to remove that document.

MARKEY: Yeah. Dr. Houry, is the current Hep B vaccine recommendation a universal birth dose for infants based on a thorough and comprehensive review of decades of data and evidence?

HOURY: It has been, and I think if we reconsider recommendations, we just need to look at the updated evidence and always weigh the risks and benefits. And that's what the committee should do.

MARKEY: Is that evidence of -- that you have seen conclusive to change a decade's long recommendation?

HOURY: So, I haven't seen any of the updated evidence they were working on that before I left.

MARKEY: Yeah. Well, you know, the concern of course is that Robert F. Kennedy is going to make America sicker again. They're going to send us towards more disease, more death, and more despair in our nation. And again, I can't thank both of you, our healthcare heroes, historic healthcare heroes for our nation. Thank you.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I-VT): Madam Chair?

MURKOWSKI: Before we turn to Senator who said you wanted to enter --

SANDERS: Just very briefly, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the record two letters from Dr. Daniel Jernigan and Dr. Demetre Daskalakis.

MURKOWSKI: Without objection.

SEN. JON HUSTED, (R-OH): Great. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to get right into this. I share the concern of many of my colleagues about the failure of our public health establishment to have trust in it. And I think that that has had lasting harm inflicted on America's children. And I know Dr. Monarez, when we visited, I talked with you about this issue of trust in the CDC based on my experience as Lieutenant Governor during the pandemic.

Because during that time, I know elected officials, parents, community leaders turned to the CDC for clear science-based guidance. And as Lieutenant Governor who had to work with the governor every single day and managing through this pandemic, as a father of school-aged children, I experienced firsthand the effects of that guidance. And we were hoping that it was going to be based on the science. Everybody kept saying, based on the science.

And yet, we know that -- now that that guidance was based on politics and special interests instead of safeguarding children's health. CDC allowed activism to override science with devastating consequences. And I just want to give a few facts on how trust has been eroded. And by the way, we talked about not having enough money. Well, CDC now has 12 centers, but only three of them were authorized by Congress.

And I think it's drifted from its original mission and trust has been eroded due to these high-profile failures during the pandemic, failures that cost students years of academic process -- progress. The House Oversight Committee found that the CDC gave the American Federation for Teachers access to edit school reopening guidance, inserting triggers that prolong closures. And this was not science, it was politics at the expense of our youth.

The consequences of these widespread school closures were very measurable. The Wall Street Journal reported that math and science scores for fourth through eighth graders fell to their lowest levels since testing began. The New York Times confirmed that students in districts with prolonged closures fell as much as half a grade behind in math. While those that reopened sooner lost less ground, and Hoover Institute projects this learning loss will reduce in lifetime earnings for today's students of five to 6 percent, costing our nation an amazing $31 trillion in economic growth. That damage went beyond academics.

The House Oversight Committee reported that suicide attempts by girls aged 12 to 17 rose by 51 percent during this period, prolonged closures, and confusing policies took a heavy toll on children's mental health and physical health. Even the CDC's universal masking guidance for children lacked evidence, went back and forth, and its own data showed no significant difference in the cases -- case rates between schools with or without masks.

[12:40:00]

And equally troubling was the CDC's growing susceptibility to special interests through the CDC Foundation, which accepted private donations, including thousands of contributions routed through platforms like ActBlue which -- with these weak safeguards, the agency left to police itself, it further undermined public confidence during this whole process. And we talked a lot about that.

And this lesson is clear to me that when an agency is entrusted with science and it bows to politics, children pay the price. And we must demand accountability. We must restore the CDC's core mission of protecting public health on evidence, not ideology, and that we must never again allow political influence to dictate the decisions of our children's health, education in future, whether that's with pandemics or vaccines.

And I hope that there's nothing in that statement that you would disagree with because I think that we had pretty much --

MONAREZ: I agree.

HUSTED: -- pretty much aligned on that during those conversations. And I know that with all of this guidance right now coming out, there's a simple question for parents with healthy school-aged children, are they endangering the lives of their healthy children if they don't get them vaccinated for COVID?

MONAREZ: This is where a parent needs to have the ability to talk with their pediatrician and to really make sure that it is in the best decision of the parent and the child that that vaccine, the COVID vaccine is, the benefits and the risks are well understood by the parents.

HUSTED: OK. And would that apply to every vaccine?

MONAREZ: So again, CDC doesn't make mandates, it makes recommendations.

HUSTED: Yeah, I'm just -- I'm just -- do -- see in this particular case, if you -- if you listen carefully, we ask endangering lives, not whether it was recommended or whether it's a good thing, but would they be endangering the lives of their children?

MONAREZ: I believe that the vaccines that have been proven safe and effective that mitigate the diseases, that if their child is exposed like the measles or Hep B, and they have not been vaccinated and they have no natural immunity, it will cause very dangerous consequences to their children.

HUSTED: So -- so this is, and I'll conclude, my time is out. This is where I think that we're getting it wrong. We shouldn't -- I asked a pretty simple question. Are they endangering their life? They aren't endangering the lives of their children. It may be a recommendation, may see a good -- and there may be good reasons for doing it, and we should tell them that. But we shouldn't scare people in saying that we're endangering their lives because I hear that all the time and it's just an overstatement. We got to start leveling with people about what the truth is.

MONAREZ: I agree that we have to have productive conversations with individuals to allow them to understand the benefits and the risks associated with these -- with these vaccines. And we do need to --

HUSTED: Yeah, and thank you, Mr. Chairman. And the -- and the irony of this is, is when I talk with you, you say that. And when I talk with Secretary Kennedy, he says this, we got to get this figured out.

SEN. BILL CASSIDY, (R-KY) CHAIRMAN, SENATE COMMITTEE ON HEALTH, EDUCATION, LABOR & PENSIONS: While I was at a vote, I understand Senator Mullin implied there was a recording of the meeting -- or meetings between Dr. Monarez and Secretary Kennedy. I will note that if materials have been provided to Senator Mullin and invoked in official committee business, they are committee records and all other Senators on the committee have the right to see those records.

I'll also note, if HHS has a recording, I ask them to release the recording. I'd also like to know why it was recorded. But releasing the recording would be radical transparency. And this is about fulfilling the President's vision of radical transparency. This is allegiance to President Trump's values. And so, I'd ask that that recording be released.

I'll also note that we put in a request for any documents or communications that would bring transparency to the situation. We have not yet received those documents. If a recording does not exist, I ask Senator Mullin to retract his line of questions.

SANDERS: Mr. Chairman?

CASSIDY: Let me see one more thing. I'll also note that if he has it, I'm also curious why only one Senator was given this and why we're just hearing about it now, and why didn't the secretary share it at the Senate Finance Committee? But those are questions that can be answered later. With that, Senator Sanders?

SANDERS: That's exactly the point that I want to make. I mean, how does it happen, if it is true, that one Senator has access to an alleged tape recording of a meeting? Nobody else has it, including the chairman. This is what we're dealing with right now. And this is what I think -- well, Dr. Monarez, this is a very politicized situation and it's unfortunate. Thanks.

CASSIDY: Senator Kim?

SEN. ANDY KIM, (D-NJ): Thank you, Chairman. Thank you to the two of you for coming on out here. Dr. Monarez, I wanted to just start with you. You were talking about how you were directed to fire career officials. I guess I just wanted to ask you, what was the plan? Who would've replaced them?

[12:45:00]

MONAREZ: Yeah. Part of what the secretary told me in the discussion related to those career officials was a sequencing of firing the leadership, promoting their deputies. If the deputies did not do what I had wanted, I needed to fire them, promote the next group and continue to do so until I got to an organization that was compliant with my demands.

KIM: So the -- the -- the plan was to literally just kind of keep firing until there was somebody in that position that was willing to go along with what Secretary Kennedy was asking. Is that right?

MONAREZ: That is -- that is what he communicated to me, yes.

KIM: I guess I wanted to just ask you, are you aware if this type of practice and this kind of order is given to other parts of HHS, FDA, NIH, any other parts?

MONAREZ: He had said, although I have no means to verify this, that others at FDA, NIH and CMS were engaging in this, this practice.

KIM: I've raised a -- Mr. Chairman, I think, we are raising concerns about what's happening with regards to the CDC. But as mentioned, we're hearing potential allegations that this type of action is being taking part in other parts of HHS and I hope this committee can try to follow up on that. Dr. Monarez, you said something in your testimony that caught my attention, which is you said something to the effect of that your political staff had to approve of policies and personnel decisions that you were trying to make. Is that correct?

MONAREZ: That is correct. And that was the email that has apparently now been made available to The Washington Post.

KIM: And so, when you talked with Secretary Kennedy, you know, he talked about wanting to have you fire. He also talked about -- well, you talked about him ordering you to pre-approve decisions made by the ACIP. When Kennedy was asked about that last week, he said, "No, I did not say that to her. I never had a private meeting with her. There were other witnesses that will say I never said that." I'm -- I guess I'm just asking you, who else was in these meetings with you?

MONAREZ: So the meeting where that was first stated and the request -- the demand made of me included five other participants in addition to the secretary. It included his deputy, the deputy secretary, his chief of staff, the deputy chief.

CASSIDY: Will you please give names? I'm sorry.

MONAREZ: Yes, sorry, I'm sorry. The Deputy Secretary Jim O'Neill, the Chief of Staff Matt Buckham, the Deputy Chief of Staff Stefanie Spear, a member of the General Counsel staff Bob Foster, and a member of his counsel staff, his -- Ken Callahan.

KIM: I think what really stands out to me is this question, if he's not listening to you, if he's not listening to CDC career staff and experts, the question is, who is Secretary Kennedy listening to about these important decisions that are before us? And not only just the idea of listening, but both of you have addressed this in so many different ways. I mean, Dr. Monarez, you talked about how they were -- when you were talking to secretary, he was basically telling you that the child vaccine schedule will change in September. Is that roughly, right?

MONAREZ: That is correct.

KIM: That's the idea that it was going to happen, not likely to happen in September?

MONAREZ: Going to happen.

KIM: And Dr. Houry, you talked about this in so many ways, and I think the phrase that really stood out to me with your work was, you said it was about pre-decided outcomes of votes. Is that correct? Is that what you were worried about?

HOURY: Yes.

KIM: Because what we're seeing as well is this -- we're seeing this over and over again where it feels like there's already a decision that's been made. And now, we're trying to figure out how to twist the data to be able to meet that prediction or meet that assertation. Is that correct, Dr. Houry?

HOURY: It is. And I think my concern, as you know, President Trump issued the executive order on gold standard science, and I believe in that. We should have data that you can replicate, that you can understand. And we were put in positions to where I am concerned that the science coming out won't be gold standard science. David Geier, who the Senator or secretary testified, was a contractor, was brought to CDC, and I had the deputy chief of -- or the deputy policy chief of staff of HHS come meet with myself and the other three leaders who resigned, doctors Jernigan, Daskalakis, and Layden. And for two days, she sat with us and asked us to grant access to a data that has privacy and security concerns to this researcher.

KIM: Now, I appreciate you raising that and just what we've seen in terms of how they've talked about this with the VSD, a lot of concerns. And I think there's a lot more this committee needs to do to look into that. Thank you. And I yield back.

[12:50:00]

CASSIDY: For the record, it's just been reported that Senator Mullin told reporters that he was mistaken in saying that the RFK-Monarez meeting was recorded. But in case he's mistaken that he was mistaken, if there is a -- if there is a recording, it should be released. And it would beg the question of what other conversations were recorded. And I'll repeat what I said earlier. We have sent a request to HHS for records related to these incidences. We've yet to receive those. But of course, it would help the committee, which on both sides has found itself scratch in its head that help us kind of discern what the truth is. With that, I go to Senator Alsobrooks.

SEN. ANGELA ALSOBROOKS, (D-MD): Thank you so much. Good afternoon, Dr. Monarez and good afternoon, Dr. Houry. First of all, I want to thank you for being here today. This is a charged political environment and being here today took courage. So I want to thank you for your courage. I also want to thank you for your commitment to the truth.

Speaking of the truth, today, it's been mentioned that there was an "honest problem" or honesty problem. Secretary Kennedy in this very room said that he would not fire scientists who were career scientists or working scientists, and he lied when he said that. And so I want to just question first, Dr. Monarez, I want to get a -- I want to talk to you about the series of things that happened on August 25th. You've described the meeting as animated. I will say it sounded unhinged. But I want to ask you whether Secretary Kennedy, what rationale did he give you for firing career scientists? Did he -- what did he say the rationale would be?

MONAREZ: Yeah. I mean that was the sequence of events where he had articulated his longstanding concerns related to the CDC and that the career scientists were part of a group that was part of the most corrupt federal agency in the history of the world. And another, a number of different items that he had ticked off, including that the CDC employees were killing children and were bought by the pharmaceutical industry and forced people to wear masks and social distancing. So, there was a number of different contextual items that he offered related to why those CDC scientists should be fired.

ALSOBROOKS: And during that unhinged conversation on August 25th, did he also indicate that he had asked leaders at other agencies within HHS to carry out similar directives to fire scientists and senior officials?

MONAREZ: He didn't use the word scientists or senior officials, but he did say that others, and I have again, no way to substantiate this, but that others at the other organizations, FDA, CMS and NIH were engaging in a similar practice of turning over leadership and getting to an organization that would be aligned with his priorities.

ALSOBROOKS: So in other words, substituting scientists with people who would rubber stamp his views and opinions?

MONAREZ: Yeah. So the -- so he didn't use those exact words, but the idea was to get to an organization that would be aligned and compliant with his administration priorities.

ALSOBROOKS: Now, how did he tell you again how you should comport yourself with political staff, or more specifically his allies? What did he tell you about that?

MONAREZ: He said that I needed to surround myself with the politicals and that I needed to listen to them and that I needed to support them with everything that they needed, and that I did not need to engage with any of the career scientists.

ALSOBROOKS: And again, just so we're reminded, where were you immediately prior to this meeting?

MONAREZ: Immediately prior to this hearing today?

ALSOBROOKS: Yeah. Well, to the meeting on the 25th.

MONAREZ: Oh, I'm sorry.

ALSOBROOKS: Yep.

MONAREZ: I was -- the previous week, I had spent in Atlanta with the CDC staff, post the shooting, doing a number of activities to make sure that I could ensure their security, help them with the healing process and then continue the CDC mission.

ALSOBROOKS: So I want to ask you very quickly about that. On 5:00 p.m. on August 8th, a gunman open fire at the CDC headquarters campus in Atlanta, Georgia, forcing thousands on the campus to lock down. And did you hear, did you receive a call from the secretary upon the first reports that an active shooter on CDC headquarters had shot at employees?

MONAREZ: I did not speak to the secretary on the eighth or any successive day. I did not speak to the secretary until August 11th when he came down to visit.

ALSOBROOKS: So are you telling me that the Secretary of Health and Human Services failed to even give you a courtesy call upon learning that employees there had been shot at?

MONAREZ: He did not call me.

ALSOBROOKS: I want to ask Dr. Houry very directly, do you believe that Secretary Kennedy is incompetent and dangerous to the American people's health?

HOURY: I had -- I always believe in optimism and hope, and I would say that was my hope when he started.

[12:55:00]

I'd read his books and as a transition lead, I was prepared to welcome him. After seeing his Senate Finance testimony and the number of misstatements, seeing what he has asked our scientists to do and to compromise our integrity and the children that have died under his watch, I think he should resign.

ALSOBROOKS: And finally, I just want to use the last 20 seconds or so I have. Dr. Monarez, you've said you agree with the president that vaccines are not controversial because they work. And I am a mother; you are a mother. I would like you to take the last few seconds I have to talk to parents. My greatest concern would be confused parents who have kids who are going to kindergarten, going to daycare. What do you say in this moment about these parents and what should they do regarding vaccines?

MONAREZ: Vaccines are safe, they're lifesaving. And I would encourage any parent, who is concerned about whether or not their child should get a vaccine, to talk to their pediatrician to understand the benefits of these life-saving medical products, and to make the best decision that they can to make sure that their children remain healthy and happy, and can go to school and be safe.

ALSOBROOKS: Thank you both so much for your integrity and for being here today. Thank you.

CASSIDY: Thank you, Senator Alsobrooks. I would now request unanimous consent to submit an article for the record. Dr. Monarez told us that Secretary Kennedy urged her to speak to Aaron Siri, and this article says -- the title is " Anti-vaccine group with ties to RFK Jr. saw another windfall last year, records show," and it points out that $6 million was paid to his law firm to pursue public records request, et cetera, and $20 million at times passed.

Secretary Kennedy has been an adviser to this law firm in the past. I have a couple questions. Dr. Houry, you said that Stuart Burns said that CDC's systematic review, I think on birth dose Hepatitis B, correct?

HOURY: Yes.

CASSIDY: -- was biased. Did he share any alternative evidence to support his views?

HOURY: He had said that the questions we had posed could lead to bias. We'd had not developed a systematic review at that time.

CASSIDY: And what did he ask you to do with the evidence you accumulated?

HOURY: So he suggested 70 additional papers that had come from the Vaccine Compensation Fund, including some that were in French and Indian.

CASSIDY: They were what?

HOURY: They were in other languages, that we could not then incorporate into the systematic review. I explained as did the Acting Center Director, that we have a systematic process we follow. The library was pulling the evidence for us and we couldn't speak to the data as we didn't have the data yet. And questions shouldn't bias, questions provide answers.

CASSIDY: And you said -- so did you have to pull your -- what happened with the review you did?

HOURY: So, it is underway. I don't know if it was completed because I left three weeks ago.

CASSIDY: And what happened with the review he did with references in Hindi, for example?

HOURY: So, the -- he didn't do a review of Hepatitis B. He sent 70 references for the scientists to include. I don't know if they were included. I said if they had valid methods, they would be.

CASSIDY: Do you know if Stuart was representing the secretary's viewpoint?

HOURY: I believe he was because he told me that the secretary had suggested age four.

CASSIDY: Say that again, I'm sorry.

HOURY: He had said that the secretary, as had an HHS counselor to me, suggested the secretary wanted the birth dose moved.

CASSIDY: OK. I'm sorry, my alarm's going off, so let me just do this so it's not distracting. And so, as I close, I'm going to speak as a liver doctor, a point of personal privilege to address the ACIP meeting scheduled for tomorrow. Folks know I'm a physician. As it turns out, I am a hepatologist which is a liver specialist, and have published papers on liver disease and have seen people die from Hepatitis. That was my practice of how do you teach students how to avoid this and how do you treat the patients that have it.

Now, we've heard allegations related to ACIP here today that will need to be addressed. I don't prejudge; I don't know if you're telling the truth or not. And when Secretary Kennedy comes, I'm keeping an open mind. Let me just say that. But I know it's our responsibility and it's our mandate from the president of the United States that we have radical transparency.

And I thank the two of you for taking the risk to your personal life to come today. Anything less than radical transparency betrays the trust the American people have given to us and betrays the mandate the president has delivered. One thing that reportedly is going to be discussed at the upcoming ACIP meeting is ending the recommend --