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Inside Politics

New Trump Meeting: Will Democrats Shutdown Gamble Pay Off?; Trump's Campaign of Retribution Accelerates Into Weekend. Interview with Rep. Seth Moulton (D-MA); Does New CNN Poll Reveal Opportunities to Win Over Independents?; Unusual Meeting Latest in String of Controversial Hegseth Moves. Aired 8-9a ET

Aired September 28, 2025 - 08:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[08:00:06]

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MANU RAJU, CNN HOST (voice-over): On the brink.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If it has to be shut down, it'll have to shut down.

RAJU: New overnight, Trump will meet with congressional leaders at the 11th hour.

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY), MINORITY LEADER: Cancel the cuts. Lower the cost. Save health care.

RAJU: Is it an opportunity or an ambush?

One congressman who wants to fight, Seth Moulton, joins me live.

Plus, vengeance.

TRUMP: I am your retribution.

RAJU: President Trump settles scores.

JAMES COMEY, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: There are costs to standing up to Donald Trump.

TRUMP: Frankly, I hope there are others.

RAJU: But as he unleashes the Justice Department on his political foes, are there any guardrails left?

And independents' day.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not completely Republican. I'm not completely sold on the Democrat platform either.

RAJU: Surprising new details about the largest new group in politics. So as Democrats fight messy primaries, can they reach the new middle?

INSIDE POLITICS, the best reporting from inside the corridors of power, starts now.

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RAJU (on camera): Good morning and welcome to INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. I'm Manu Raju.

Congress and the White House may once again inflict a crisis on the country. By Tuesday, President Trump and Democratic leaders must reach an agreement to avoid what could be a prolonged and painful shutdown of the entire federal government that would impact millions of Americans.

Democrats, aghast at what they see as a lawless president, are demanding significant policy changes on health care in exchange for their votes in the Senate. Trump, who has spent the last eight months in office doing seemingly whatever he wants, including a norm shattering retribution campaign against political foes that has only intensified in recent days, wants a straight extension of government funding for seven weeks. In late last night, news broke of a last- ditch meeting between the president and the top four congressional leaders at the White House on Monday, the first of this term.

So, will we see a president who often boasts about his dealmaking skills, show some compromise with Democrats, or will it devolve into an ugly clash like it did in 2018?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): And the experts say you can do border security without a wall, which is wasteful and doesn't solve the problem.

TRUMP: It totally solves the problem and it's very important.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): This is spiraled downward when we came at a place to say how do we meet the needs of the American people who have needs?

TRUMP: I will take the mantle. I will be the one to shut it down. I'm not going to blame you for it. The last time you shut it down, it didn't work. I will take the mantle of shutting down, and I'm going to shut it down for border security.

SCHUMER: But we believe you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: And of course, that went on for about 17 minutes in that infamous throw down there in the oval office.

And I have an excellent reporter to break down all the news on this critical week. CNN's Alayna Treene, Jonah Goldberg from "The Dispatch", "The Atlanta Journal's" Tia Mitchell, and "Semafor's" Burgess Everett.

Good morning to you all.

BURGESS EVERETT, SEMAFOR CONGRESSIONAL BUREAU CHIEF: Good morning.

RAJU: Shutdown week. And you know, the -- this is -- meeting is significant for several reasons. One of which is that Chuck Schumer and President Trump actually have not spoken since January 20th, I'm told, inauguration day. And also, Hakeem Jeffries has actually never actually met with Trump. So, this will be the first time that's ever happened.

But the question that I get, you know, Burgess, we've covered so many of these shutdowns -- shutdown threats time and time again, they find a way out of it. Sometimes they don't. The question I get now is, what is the likelihood of a government shutdown?

From your sources and your reporting, what are you hearing about the prospects of this? Because Democrats, of course, they have a significant amount of say they have to give at least seven votes in the Senate to pass anything here. From your reporting, how would you handicap the chances of a shutdown?

EVERETT: I would say definitely better than even, you know, more than 50 percent. Part of what's happening here is you played these clips from 2018, when the president was asking Democrats for policy concessions. Now things are flipped, except Democrats are in the minority.

So yes, Trump needs their votes to keep the government open, but they don't really have as much leverage as they think they have or as they're presenting themselves. So, if they stick to their guns and say --

RAJU: Are they going to stick to their guns?

EVERETT: Everything we've heard says, yes. Senate Democrats will be having a conference call this afternoon. So, I'm assuming there's going to be more discussion of this. But so far, they are.

You see, the minority leaders in the House and Senate, Jeffries and Schumer seem to be sticking together, that you don't sense that sort of rift between them at this point. Liberal groups aren't hammering these folks yet, so it feels like there are a lot more dug in than they were in March.

RAJU: So, take us inside the White House's thinking to have this meeting, because there was supposed to be this meeting between Jeffries and Schumer and Trump on Thursday. Trump called off that meeting. The Republican leader said, don't meet with them. They announced this yesterday.

Is this an opportunity for Trump to do what he did in 2018, essentially try to go after the Democrats? Or is this actually an effort to actually get a deal here?

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: I think it will more likely be what we saw in 2018. I mean, you know, who knows how it's actually going to go down. But I know from my conversations, at least with people inside the building is that they don't really see a lot of downside for the president and for the Republican Party overall with a shutdown.

[08:05:05]

We know the president isn't as afraid of a shutdown as we've seen, you know, his predecessors be. And a lot of people in his inner circle and in the West Wing believe that a shutdown will be blamed on Democrats like it normally is when, you know, they are the minority party and that it could also help them in the midterms.

Now, of course, we have to see how these talks go tomorrow. But I think the president really does feel like he's going into that meeting tomorrow with the upper hand and really with not a lot to lose. And it could be an opportunity. I think part of the reason this is happening as well is he wants people to see that Democrats are being unreasonable. That's what he believes, and he wants that to be showcased more publicly so that when and potentially if the government shuts down, they get more of the blame.

RAJU: And this is what Democrats are asking for in these negotiations or the negotiations that they hope will happen. They want to reverse the Medicaid cuts that were included in Trump's signature domestic policy achievement from this summer. They want to extend expiring Obamacare subsidies set to expire at the end of the year to help people pay for their health insurance under Obamacare. They also want to some sort of restrictions on how Trump has essentially cut spending federal spending without congressional approval. Trump is not going to give in on that. I mean, perhaps they may have a discussion on a deal with Obamacare subsidies, but that is a much more complicated issue.

But you're hearing Democrats saying that that is their red line. And, you know, you take a step back. They say we need to show that we can't continue business as usual. The way Trump has been running things here. But isn't it a bigger risk for them to actually shut the government down?

TIA MITCHELL, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION: Well. There are voters that these Democratic elected officials have been hearing from who've said, stop being afraid, shut it down. We want to see a fight. So, in some ways, they're a little bit more empowered to be blamed for the shutdown because there are there are constituents back home who said, go for it.

Now, whether those constituents will feel the same way once they feel the impact of a shutdown remains to be seen. But I think especially people like Chuck Schumer, who we know back in March when we were having this conversation, was not for a shutdown. He seems to even be in a different posture now. So, I think that -- I think they are willing to negotiate, you know, they've got what they want. I think they're willing to see where they can meet. But I don't think Democrats are willing to just give to not do a

shutdown with nothing in return. They might not get everything they want, but I think they're going to want something or there will be a shutdown.

RAJU: This is why this significant consequences are so significant, because the White House is threatening a lot here.

This is what "The Washington Post" headlined, "Mass layoffs, deregulation, military deployments as Trump's shutdown plans."

Erick Erickson, a conservative activist and personality, told "The Boston Globe". If I were a Democrat and Russ Vought was in charge of OMB, he's the White House budget director, I would have nightmares about Russ could do that you couldn't undo when government reopens. Russ has waited for this moment his whole life.

The point being is that Trump has, you know, he's taken all these steps in this past eight months or so, regardless of what Congress wants, regardless of what the court wants. Now with the government shutdown, perhaps he can go even further and a lot of areas. And that could even mean these mass firings of federal employees.

JONAH GOLDBERG, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, I mean, this is a briar patch that he kind of wants to get pushed into.

I think part of the problem is that one of the reasons why Democrats are at their lowest approval in 30 years, in a generation is because a lot of Democrats don't like. Democrats right now. And so that's the weird political vise that the Democratic Party is in, is how do I win back the support of my own party? Never mind people in the middle.

And the challenge is they're trying to use the shutdown as a messaging tool to highlight the Medicare and Obamacare stuff, and also maybe to give themselves this excuse that says, hey, look, we want to keep the government open. We'd make a deal. But the last time we made a deal, this administration went -- the Republicans went and reopened legislation that was already passed and paid for. So, we can't trust them.

And that is the only silver lining for Democrats, possibly, of not getting the full blame is to say, hey, look, under normal circumstances, we would deserve the blame for shutting down the government. But look at all the chaos this guy is creating. We can't trust him. We got to do something. I don't think it's going to work, but it could help.

RAJU: I mean, the issue is that if the government shut down, it is so much harder to reopen the government. And what would Democrats get in return if they shut, if the government were shut down and they alleged in some negotiation, this is how long this -- the prior government shutdowns have lasted in recent years.

We have not seen one since the 2018, 2019 shutdown. That was 35 days. That was the longest in history. And then there have been many that have been 1 or 2 days, a couple that have been longer than that. But that's the risk here. This could go on.

[08:10:00]

Who knows, maybe even longer than 35 days.

EVERETT: And look at that 2013 one. That's the most analogous scenario, same exact point in the calendar. And the other difference is this would be a full government shutdown.

That was not the case in 2018 and 2019. And if you recall, in 2013, you were having things like World War II veterans being turned away from the World War II Memorial.

I mean, there are ways that this will play out publicly and in all Americans' lives, depending on how the Trump administration implements a shutdown. And I think some of these things that they're talking about, like mass firings and layoffs and things like that, probably going to do that anyway, they haven't shown that there's much correlation between whether the government is open and them trying to cut federal jobs.

RAJU: And people get blame. The Democrats, Republicans and the White House will all share a significant amount of the blame. The 2018-2019 shutdown a Pew poll from that time looked at everyone. A majority of voters essentially blamed everyone, even though it was Trump who walked away from spending bill at that time to keep the government open.

So, this could be a problem across the board here.

MITCHELL: Yeah, again, I think because if there is a shutdown, it's not going to look anything like the previous shutdowns, most likely because we know the Trump administration is planning to take advantage of this opportunity to do mass layoffs, perhaps to shutter more federal agencies and programs. And so, it's going to be kind of unprecedented territory to see how the American people, first of all, the impact and be the blame, because it's just not going to look the same.

As painful as previous shutdowns were, this one could be painful in a much different way, and quite frankly, a much more permanent way.

RAJU: Yeah. And the impact could be felt across the country. And the political impact will be. We'll see if that happens and we'll see what happens in this critical meeting tomorrow.

All right. President Trump says he's authorized troops to use, quote, full force in Portland. So, what exactly does that mean?

Plus, the revolt inside the Democratic Party. I'll talk to a key Democrat and what he thinks his party needs to do to respond.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:16:26] RAJU: A big part of President Trump's second term agenda is now overshadowing much of everything else his campaign of retribution against his political foes, shattering democratic norms and unprecedented in modern history. As president makes clear this weekend, he has only just begun.

He said yesterday he was sending troops to protect ICE facilities in Portland, Oregon, which he called, quote, "war ravaged", and said he authorized them to use what he called, quote, "full force".

My excellent panel is back.

Just to look at that, this -- this graphic of the people that he's been going after and various ways in many of them through his own federal agencies, the Department of Justice and the like, and threats to go after them, pretty much all either Democrats or people that he has viewed as a perceived foe in some way.

Yes, people say that Trump said he's going to do this on the campaign trail and he's doing it. It is still stunning to see a president using his power the way he is to go after his political enemies.

GOLDBERG: Yeah, I mean, it's become a cliche, but it's another one of these things that's shocking but not surprising, right? And look, I -- on the Comey thing in particular, I think this is a bigger step than some of these others. Not to say that, you know, some of the other things they've done were fine or normal.

And I think Jim Comey is sort of a fastidious popinjay and did a lot of damage to our politics and to the Justice Department. He also in no way deserves to be selectively prosecuted for this sort of pretextual nonsense.

And the signal that it is sending within the Jstice Department, I think, is, is pretty profound. And the signal is sending to other critics in sort of a chilling effect of, look, we will just make something up, essentially, in order to like, get payback against you. That's going to have real consequences going forward.

RAJU: What are you hearing about inside the White House about what's next here on this? I mean, he talked about Portland. You could compare it to this, to what's happening in these other issues. But Portland is part of his effort to send the National Guard in to various cities and states. I've been Democratic cities here now for the most part, even when Democrats are resisting it.

But also, there's the prosecution side of it as well. There are two different efforts that he's doing and going after blue states, blue cities and Democrats and perceived enemies.

What are you hearing from inside the White House about all this?

TREENE: Well, they view them as two separate issues as well. I'll start on the prosecutions, particularly what we saw with Comey this week. Everyone knew that this was going to happen, particularly once we saw Lindsey Halligan, someone who was the president's personal former personal attorney, someone who they consider a loyalist.

She traveled around. She was just at the U.S. Open, for example, with the president. When she was put in that role of, you know, the interim attorney of the Eastern District of Virginia, they knew this was going to happen. And what I'm told is, yes, we know that the president has been urging this not only from our conversations that he's been pressuring Bondi to bring charges against Comey, but he also said so publicly last week and on social media.

But he has lamented behind the scenes for months that he faced prosecutions and indictments when he was out of office. He still has a lot of resentment over what happened during his first term about being impeached twice. He has said he believes these people deserve to face the same type of treatment.

And it's not only accountability. Yes, he talks about how this is justice, but of course it is a sense of revenge and he thinks his supporters are thirsty for it.

Now, when it comes to Portland and these other cities, I actually think -- Portland is very interesting because from what I'm hearing is that the protests on ICE facilities have given them kind of the open door to go in and send the National Guard.

[08:20:08]

I'd remind you that he really wanted to do that with Chicago, but did not. And that was because I was told his advisers were saying the legal headaches that that will cause of sending the National Guard into a state where you obviously have the Democratic Governor J.B. Pritzker saying, no way, we're going to fight this tooth and nail. They said, just it's not worth it. And that's why he turned his sights to Memphis.

Portland is an interesting kind of in the middle because he believes that these protests, even though, of course, we're hearing the same things from the Democratic mayor and governor saying, we do not need the military in our streets to deal with this, h believes that's, you know, kind of an example of, okay, we can use that as a reason for doing.

RAJU: Yeah. Interesting. And just on the whole Justice Department idea, remember this. There used to be some sort of dividing line between the White House and the Justice Department.

Yes, sir. Sure, certainly, the Justice Department does engage in politics and the like, but not being directed by the president to go after opponent X and opponent Y.

And even Pam Bondi and Lindsey Halligan, when they were speaking publicly, they did reaffirm that they believe the justice department should be independent.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I believe that the Justice Department must be independent and must act independently.

LINDSEY HALLIGAN, REPRESENTED TRUMP AFTER 2022 MAR-A-LAGO RAID: It's up to the sitting president to ensure that our criminal system does not unravel into retaliatory or political prosecutions of former presidents and other government officials.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MITCHELL: Yeah, I mean, they said the right things. But the person --

RAJU: And that was also at Bondi's confirmation hearing.

MITCHELL: Yeah. And. Right. And so, you know, there are a lot of senators who are concerned publicly and privately that what they heard from some of those Trump loyalists in those confirmation hearings is not how they're -- how it's playing out as they actually carry out their duties. And we know there are some Republican senators who are concerned about that.

I think for people like Pam Bondi, you know, she's in a tough spot because she does want to be loyal to President Trump. She wants to keep her job. I think she likes her job. And she was publicly pressured to carry out the indictment of James Comey. And then a couple of days later, look what happened.

So that perception is there. And I know Pam Bondi is aware of it. I think also, there are a lot of Republican officials who people like Pam Bondi want to be perceived as like a, a good lawyer, a good attorney general. And now she's risking her reputation for what happens after Trump. And I think that's on a lot of them.

GOLDBERG: I think that ship has sailed with Pam Bondi. But I take the point.

RAJU: I mean, the whole thing was just so remarkable because Trump pressured for these charges to go forward. Then they pushed out the U.S. attorney. He puts in Trump loyalist, a former -- one of his former personal attorneys, Lindsey Halligan, doesn't have experience, is certainly as a prosecutor to -- in these charges that were filed five days later.

I asked Senator Mike Rounds about this on Friday, and he said that -- I said, do you have any issues about this? He said -- he's a Republican senator from South Dakota. He said, "We're going to stay in our lane, congress lane, and the president's going to stay in his lane."

But are you sensing any apprehension from Republicans when they see these kind of actions, especially if the shoe is on the other foot and a Democrat becomes president?

EVERETT: I mean, you heard the Senate Judiciary Chairman, Chuck Grassley, who has not -- he has stood against Trump several times this year already on things like, you know, the arcane blue slip process, letting Democrats have some buy in on judicial nominees. Grassley seemed like he was okay with the Comey prosecution. He didn't raise any red flags about it.

So I am not sensing that sort of like -- like that would be what would perhaps change the course of this is do you have members of your own party who are saying, I'm not going to support anything you do until you change course, until you stop trying to go after your enemies, things like that. We're not hearing that at all.

RAJU: Yes, no, we're not hearing that. We haven't heard that for the last ten years or --

EVERETT: No, we haven't.

The other thing, like sometimes I have to, like, stop myself, is we're reporters here. We're used to prying out information that is hard to get right. All this stuff is just happening in public, and it's just so different than I think maybe reporting in Washington was ten years ago, when you would not hear about these things and see them on social media playing out in public.

RAJU: Yeah.

GOLDBERG: I just -- I didn't see the Mike Rounds interview, but if the way you characterize it is right, I assume it is.

That is some thin gruel, right? This idea that the Republicans in the Senate or in the House are staying in their lane, they've -- the Congress's lane is the first branch of government, is the supreme branch of government is like an eight lane superhighway. And they've turned it into like a bike lane.

And they're just going to stay in this little narrow thing. And the idea that, like, the president can like shut down agencies, control spending, declare, you know, military actions without congressional buy in.

I have a lot more respect for Mike Rounds' argument about staying in their lane if they were actually doing something in their lane, rather than just sort of being cheerleaders.

[08:25:06]

RAJU: I would say the lane has been wiped out completely, perhaps especially in the second Trump term.

All right. Out with the old, in with the new. That's what message we're hearing from Democrats on the campaign trail. My next guest is looking to make the case for generational change. But could he beat a 79-year-old incumbent and progressive stalwart? That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RAJU: On the campaign trail, Democratic candidates are taking a stance against the longtime leaders of their party. As the up and comers try to win over disaffected Democrats. We could hear my next guest make that argument about generational change very soon. Joining me now is Congressman Seth Moulton of Massachusetts. Congressman, thank you so much for joining me this Sunday morning. Really appreciate your time.

REP. SETH MOULTON (D-MA): Good to see you, Manu.

RAJU: Good to see you as well.

There are new reports that you are considering challenging Senator Ed Markey in a primary next year. But if you're a Democratic voter in Massachusetts, wouldn't you want an experienced hand like Ed Markey representing you in the Senate?

MOULTON: Well, it's a good question. And I'm talking to a lot of Massachusetts voters right now. But, you know, one thing I hear across the board is that Democrats are not satisfied with the status quo.

And I think we as a party can't be satisfied with the status quo when Republicans are in power -- the House, the Senate, the White House, all across the country. You know, we've got to be doing better.

So I think it's incumbent upon every elected Democrat to simply ask the question. You know, how can I best serve the country going forward? And how can we make things better, win more elections in the Democratic Party?

RAJU: Do you think that Senator Markey represents the status quo?

MOULTON: Well, look, I've got a lot of respect for Senator Markey and all the things he's worked on. He's a great guy, has a wonderful wife. I mean, some people that I know very well from time in Washington.

But, you know, there are questions I think about just whether it's time for a new generation of leadership or not in the party. And these are questions that voters are asking. And people like me are listening.

RAJU: How likely is it that you will run against him?

MOULTON: Oh, I don't know, Manu. Listen, it's a tough decision because I'd have to give up my seat in the House, and I'm doing a lot of work that I think is important. It's important now especially.

You know, one of the questions I often get is, why do you keep doing this job, Seth? Well, it's a frustrating time in Washington. It's a polarizing time in Washington. And yet it's a time when people are counting on us to get good work done.

So, you know, giving up my seat in the House and a district that I'm very proud to represent, to take a risk on running for the Senate is not a decision that I'm taking lightly.

RAJU: I just want to ask you, because you talk about the generational argument, that argument, as I made before in the past, including against Senator Markey himself by Congressman Joe Kennedy, who ran in 2020. He lost by double digits to the senator. And Markey, who is 79, has said, it's not your age, it's your ideas.

Does that argument resonate with voters that it's about ideas, not age?

MOULTON: Well, I think ideas matter a lot. Getting those ideas accomplished matters a lot, too. And I think that one thing that people have trouble with when they look at the Democratic Party right now is they don't know where we stand on a forward-looking agenda.

You know, everyone knows that we're opposed to Trump. Got it. But what are we going to do differently? What are we going to do to strengthen the economy when we take charge? How are we going to handle immigration?

We all hate what Trump is doing with ICE and these masked people running around like the Gestapo. But how what is Democrats' immigration policy?

How are we going to take on the challenges of the future? Like designing an education system that embraces A.I., that recognizes that A.I. is going to take a lot of jobs?

You know, it's just ten years ago, everyone was telling people to sign up to be a computer programmer, study computer programing in school. And those are some of the first jobs being completely automated out of existence.

So I think the Democratic Party needs to have an agenda that's very forward-looking and not just about anti-Trump. But what we are going to do to improve things for Americans, improve health care, improve job opportunities. You know, there's so much work to be done.

RAJU: And when will you make that final decision about whether to run?

MOULTON: I don't have an exact timeline. Manu, but you know, having a lot of conversations with voters, my family and my team to just try to determine the best way to serve the country going forward.

RAJU: All right.

So there's going to be a big meeting tomorrow at the White House with the top congressional leaders ahead of this government shutdown deadline on Tuesday.

The White House wants a short-term stopgap measure. You have supported short-term measures in the past, in past funding fights.

So why not just vote for a seven-week extension of funding as the White House wants, and avoid what could be a very painful shutdown that could impact millions of Americans?

MOULTON: Because dealing with Republicans in the past, we at least as Democrats, felt like we could have a basically honest discussion and they would ultimately abide by whatever agreement we sign up to.

That's not the case with Trump. I mean, he just shreds (ph) in grievance (ph) all day long.

[08:34:49]

MOULTON: We'll pass a budget, and then he'll just make unilateral rescission (ph). He'll just cut funding that in a bipartisan way Congress has agreed to support.

He's been doing this since January. So we can't just trust him to do what he signs on a piece of paper. And that's why it's important for Democrats to use their leverage this time.

We have to use our leverage to do good things for the American people. And what we're asking for in this negotiation, Manu, is something that's good for everybody in America.

You know, we're not like Trump just showing up and just trying to do something for his buddies, for his billionaire pals with a tax cut. You know, his real estate mavens or his big campaign donors.

(CROSSTALKING)

MOULTON: We're trying to lower health care premiums for everyone in America -- blue states, red states. That's a good thing that Trump should be willing to agree to.

RAJU: But Congressman, some of these negotiations are going to take some time. So wouldn't it be more painful to actually shut the government down? Why not just keep it open and negotiate those things later?

MOULTON: You know what, that's what the Republicans should do. And they should they should bring Democrats to the table.

Remember, Schumer and Jeffries were supposed to meet with Trump last week, and he shut down those talks on the shutdown. If Trump seems to be more interested in making his tee-times this weekend, he's been playing golf all weekend rather than having these negotiations.

And don't forget, this is a guy who said that he could control everything in Washington. You know, whether its ending the war in Ukraine on day one or immediately lowering prices for every American, he wants to control every aspect of government.

He even wants to control what people are allowed to say by censoring Jimmy Kimmel. And yet he can't keep the government open when Republicans own everything -- White House, House and Senate. I mean, give me a break.

This is Donald Trump's decision whether this government shuts down.

RAJU: Congressman, I want to ask you about just the polls that have shown just a sheer lack of confidence that Democratic voters have in their leaders in Washington. I'm curious what you think.

What about you? Do you have confidence in Chuck Schumer, especially right now as they deal with these shutdown negotiations? Do you have confidence in Chuck Schumer, the Senate Democratic leader?

MOULTON: Well, those of us who voted against the Republican package last time in the House only to see Schumer pass it in the Senate did feel betrayed and felt that the senator should have used the leverage that we have.

We don't have a ton of leverage in Washington right now because Republicans control just about everything. But we should use what leverage that we have.

I have more confidence going into this negotiation, that Senator Schumer has heard that, has learned the lesson and will use his leverage -- what little leverage we have this time around.

But I will say that there is frustration I hear all the time amongst Democratic voters with Democratic leadership. That we need to be doing more, that we need to have a forward-looking agenda, that fundamentally we need to win elections.

Elections have huge consequences. Everybody in America sees that right now. And we've got to get Democrats back on a winning footing for 2026 and beyond.

RAJU: And very quickly, if you were to become a senator and you had a chance to vote for Chuck Schumer as the next Democratic leader, would you?

MOULTON: That would be a very tough decision. It wouldn't be an easy vote.

RAJU: All right. Ok.

Congressman Seth Moulton, thank you so much for taking the time and joining me this morning. We'll see you back here in Washington this week.

MOULTON: All right, Manu. Thank you.

RAJU: Thank you.

Next, new CNN polling reveals some major surprises about the largest group in American politics -- Independents. Could there be glimmers of hope for Democrats? That's next.

[08:38:20]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not completely Republican. I've seen the Republican -- I'm not completely sold on their platform. And I'm not completely sold on the Democrat platform either.

(END VIDEO CLIP) RAJU: All right. That was my colleague, Jeff Zeleny, speaking with a voter who represents a skyrocketing segment of the American electorate -- Independents, Americans who are spurning both the Democratic and Republican parties.

So are they actually so-called swing voters? And what are their ideological leanings? And how do the parties reach them?

New CNN polling this weekend has found they fit into five distinct groups. The upbeat outsiders, the disappointed middle, the Democratic lookalikes, the Republican lookalikes and the checked-out, which clocks in at 27 percent as you can see from that poll.

My panel is back to break it down.

What does this mean for the two parties when you're seeing Independents really surge? I mean, now its 44 percent more Americans identify themselves as Independents than as Republicans or Democrats -- significantly higher than the two parties.

TIA MITCHELL, ATLANTA JOURNAL-CONSTITUTION, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF: Yes, I think in some ways it's going to have a big impact, particularly in these statewide races, in true swing states.

But in a lot of ways, it's not going to have impact in like as Congress gets more gerrymandered, as a lot of state legislative seats are very gerrymandered. It won't -- you won't see that play out as much, but it's definitely going to have an impact on some of these governors' races. And something to look for in 2028, particularly the checked-out.

Both parties are worried about the fact that so many voters are saying, I'm not watching the news, I'm not paying attention. All of it stresses me out and just kind of are covering their eyes and ears.

Will they plug back in, is the question.

RAJU: And how do they reach them? One of the subgroups here are the upbeat outsiders, about 22 percent of those Independents would be in this group. Who are they?

[08:44:49]

RAJU: So about half of them, more than a little bit over half are women. A majority or plurality are white. There's still a significant amount of Hispanic voters as well. And most of them are under 50.

Can Democrats appeal to this group and how?

BURGESS EVERETT, SEMAFOR CONGRESSIONAL BUREAU CHIEF: You've got to get them into the midterms, I mean, to immediately capitalize on them. And so that's going to be a big challenge.

I think also with the checked-out folks. I mean, party bases, the Democrats have done a good job at turning out their base during midterm elections, more so. And these special elections that we've seen.

Can they get people to actually pay attention to the midterms in 2026? Can you activate these Independents especially? You saw it. They had more Dem lookalikes than Republican lookalikes.

RAJU: Yes.

EVERETT: Can you get those Dem lookalikes to actually care? Because I think a lot of those Independents and all those categories are checked-out to some extent, if you talk to normal people, which we occasionally do.

RAJU: Yes.

And the disappointed middle, they are people who are engaged and interested in politics. They're mostly men, mostly white, and they lean more Republican.

Yet the question was asked, who they would rather control Congress. Democrats have a five-point edge in that.

JONAH GOLDBERG, THE DISPATCH CO-FOUNDER AND EDITOR IN CHIEF: Yes, right. Look, there's a long tradition in American politics of a thermostatic response is that you start supporting the other side to check the party in power. And that's probably some of that.

Look, I see both parties as depleted brands and sort of the same reasons that like late night comedy show, you know, Kimmel and Fallon, have low ratings. It's because people are unplugging and narrowcasting in their own way.

It applies to the parties, too. The Republican Party is basically a cult of personality now. So if you don't like Trump, you're not part of the coalition.

The Democratic Party is basically an anti-Trump party now. So if you do like Trump even a little bit, you're not part of the coalition.

And that just leads an enormously diverse, polyglot group of people who call themselves Independents to -- that are up for grabs and no one has figured out a way to reach them in large scale.

RAJU: And Trump doesn't try to necessarily reach those voters. He doesn't pivot to the middle. He pivots to his base. That's his reflex every single time.

ALAYNA TREENE, CNN WHITE HOUSE REPORTER: Absolutely. And the thing that's been so fascinating, we've seen this, of course, for years now, which is that both parties have been increasingly going farther, right. Like the key stars in both parties are the people who are, you know, we saw Biden do this like people who have to run to the left in the Democratic Party, people who are running to the right in the Republican Party. And that's left such a big vacuum in the middle.

And through all this conversation, too, you're talking about ratings and whatnot, this has been so fascinating to me, just having covered both, you know, this current term of the Trump administration, but also his first term. It's so different.

Even just talking to my friends and family members that, you know, back then, everyone was so tuned in to everything, watching the news, watching everything the president was doing.

So many people I talked to have no interest -- just talking to the checked-out group -- no interest in doing that this time. And so I totally agree. There's so much work to be done before the midterms.

And I will say, particularly when it comes to Democrats, I mean, I think this idea that they are still trying to figure out what their messaging is, what the platform is going to be, all of that, needs to be happening way faster. And it's something I'm hearing all the time.

RAJU: And you say you've been reporting about these messy Democratic primaries that are happening in the Senate races. They're running -- these candidates are trying to run as outsiders from their party leadership because they see what the polling shows --

EVERETT: Yes.

RAJU: -- that people are dissatisfied with what -- their own party.

EVERETT: You don't want to be Washington's anointed candidate. And that's been a truism in the Republican Party for a long time. But Democrats have typically been able to navigate these without getting these messy primaries and kind of choose their candidates.

And we're seeing a move away from that this cycle. And that's something that's going to be very different in the next few months.

RAJU: Puts a lot of pressure on the Democratic leaders to decide how to handle that as well.

All right, guys, great discussion.

And there's still more news next. New details on a highly unusual meeting led by Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth. What will hundreds of military brass be doing this week after rushing to Virginia at the last minute?

Stay tuned.

[08:48:46]

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RAJU: When the former Fox News personality Pete Hegseth was confirmed as Defense Secretary this year, it required Vice President JD Vance to break the tie. But since then, he has bucked decades of precedent, taking a series of unusual steps and stunning top military brass.

Two days from now, he plans to hold a pep rally of sorts at the last minute, ordering hundreds of generals and admirals from all over the world to drop everything and travel to a base in Virginia. Now, people familiar with the planning say Hegseth will speak about

what he calls, quote, "the warrior ethos" and the Pentagons reinvention as the Department of War.

Now, on Friday, after a former general likened the meeting to a surprise gathering of German generals in 1935, Hegseth replied sarcastically, writing "Cool story, General".

Now it's not only controversial move this month. Several news outlets are pushing back on a demand by the Pentagon that reporters sign a pledge not to obtain or use unauthorized material.

Critics say that policy would fly in the face of press freedoms and the First Amendment.

And last week, Hegseth shut down a decades old advisory group that offered recommendations on how to support women in the military.

And just a few days ago Hegseth announced 19 soldiers would keep the medals they received for their actions at Wounded Knee. That's the 1890 massacre in South Dakota that left an estimated 250 native Americans dead.

[08:54:55]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PETE HEGSETH, U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: Under my direction, we're making it clear without hesitation that the soldiers who fought in the Battle of Wounded Knee in 1890 will keep their medals. And we're making it clear that they deserve those medals.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, the move sparking an outcry from native American groups and Democrats, including Deb Haaland, the first Native American cabinet secretary and now a Democratic candidate for New Mexico governor, who likened the move to, quote, "cruelty" in saying it, quote, "only deepens the injustice".

That's it for INSIDE POLITICS SUNDAY. You can follow me on X @mkraju and follow the show @INSIDE POLITICS. You can follow me on TikTok and on Instagram.

If you ever miss an episode, you can catch up wherever you get your podcasts. Just search for INSIDE POLITICS.

Up next, "STATE OF THE UNION WITH JAKE TAPPER AND DANA BASH". Jake's guests include House Speaker Mike Johnson, Maryland Senator Chris Van Hollen, and former FBI deputy director Andy McCabe.

Thanks again for sharing your Sunday morning with us. We'll see you next time.

[08:55:50]

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