Return to Transcripts main page

Inside Politics

Author Of "How Democracies Die" On Trump's Latest Moves; Candidates For Virginia Governor Spar In Only Debate. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired October 10, 2025 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00]

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Don't worry about it.

KADY FRAIZER, NAVY WIFE: I think we're going to get a broccoli.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): But back at the food bank, Kady Frazier is worried for her husband, a Navy technician, and their children.

FRAIZER: We get paid every two weeks. So, yes, that one, if we don't get paid after that, it can start to become a real stressful situation. We struggle, so.

ZELENY (voice-over): Bailey worries, too, amid frustration and disappointment at another impasse in Washington.

BASHTYE BAILEY, NAVY WIFE & VETERAN: I really hope that a resolution is -- is found quickly.

ZELENY: Life is stressful enough without having to think about your paycheck.

BAILEY: Absolutely.

ZELENY (voice-over): Her family's next paycheck is one week away or whenever the shutdown ends.

ZELENY: OK. Take care.

BAILEY: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ZELENY: And, Dana, I was asked again and again by the people we talked to, when will the shutdown end? And that is something we do not have an answer for. The Senate voted again last night, did not reach a deal. Congress entirely is out of Washington until next Tuesday.

DANA BASH, CNN HOST: Yes. Such a good piece. So important to hear from those people, particularly those who serve in the U.S. military and their families.

OK. Coming up, here's a question. How do democracies die? Well, a Harvard political scientist wrote a book on that, and he's here next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:35:49]

BASH: So much is happening. And the stories we report and cover come at a breakneck pace. So much that it's really hard to keep track. So separately, here are just some major headlines. A military deployment to a major American city. The indictment of political foes. Threats to imprison sitting elected officials on the President's unofficial enemies list. The downsiding -- downsizing of governments, sometimes without congressional approval.

Take them together and what does that picture paint? Well joining me now is Steve Levitsky. He's a Harvard University professor and the author of a book, "How Democracies Die." So professor, thank you so much for being here. I mentioned just some of the things that we're seeing come out of the White House being directed from there.

And it does include, of course, as I mentioned, deploying the major -- military to major American citizens. I want to read something that you said in 2023 to "The New York Times." You said, I'm not as worried about the consolidation of autocracy, Hungary or Russia style. I think that the opposition forces, civil society forces, are probably too strong for that. Do you still believe that?

STEVEN LEVITSKY, GOVERNMENT PROFESSOR, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: Well, I'm not as optimistic as I was in 2023. Thank you for reading. I forgot I said that. I think we do have a much stronger civil society than, say, Russia. That's true. What I didn't expect is how little we would respond, how much civil society would kind of retreat to the sidelines, would silence itself and try to appease the Trump administration rather than pushing back. So we've got a lot of muscle in civil society. But in the first nine months of the Trump administration, we haven't used it much.

BASH: Well, expand on that, because when you talk about civil society, you're talking about law firms, you're talking about universities, you're talking about the -- the institutions in and around the three branches of government, right?

LEVITSKY: Right. That's exactly right. So law firms have been threatened by the government. And for the most part, many of the larger law firms have -- have backed down. They're no longer doing pro bono work for progressive causes. They're backing off, working with opposition -- with the opposition. Media companies are -- are backing down.

They're changing their editorial lines. They're changing their programming in response to threats from the government. Universities like my own, in many cases, are trying to appease the government rather than speaking out forcefully against it. And I think that appeasement, appeasement doesn't work with authoritarians. Appeasement feeds and emboldens authoritarians.

BASH: So you're talking about the systems in and around the government. And then there, of course, is the government. There's the whole checks and balance system that makes the United States what it is. Are those working right now, particularly when you look at what the legislative and judicial branches are supposed to do to keep the executive in check?

LEVITSKY: No, clearly they're not working. The -- the legislature has failed more than the judiciary. Many, many federal judges have been very much doing their job in recent years. The Supreme Court, I think, has made some decisions that have enabled Trump's authoritarianism that I think will go down in history, particularly the immunity ruling of 2024 that will go down in history as -- as very, very damaging.

But the courts have -- have continued to be very independent. But Congress, particularly the House of Representatives, has folded up its tent. It has given up its oversight responsibility. If you talk, as you do, with individual Congress people, they know what's going on. They know that there is extraordinary corruption in this administration and an extraordinary, really unprecedented abuse of power. And Congress is doing nothing. It is folded up its tent.

[12:40:02]

BASH: Well, I also -- I just as -- we're out of time, but I just want to remind our viewers that you did start on a positive note, which is that the United States has the muscle to really follow on what has been our tradition for almost 250 years, which is a fulsome democracy. Thank you so much for being here, professor. I appreciate it.

LEVITSKY: Sure. Thanks, Dana.

BASH: Two women, but only one can win. The governor's debate in Virginia was full of fireworks.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GOV. WINSOME EARLE-SEARS (R-VA), VIRGINIA GOV. CANDIDATE: As I have been, in fact, with my -- with my ninth grade daughter, who is actually here with us in the audience, local and state law enforcement must always work with federal agencies when they're --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:45:09]

BASH: The one and only debate in Virginia's race for governor was a fiery sparring match between the Democratic former Congresswoman Abigail Spanberger and Republican Lieutenant Governor Winsome Earle- Sears.

The candidates clashed on one of the most prominent issues in the state, the government shutdown and the fate of Virginia's many federal workers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) EARLE-SEARS: When are you going to ask Senators Kaine and Warner to please keep federal workers working?

ABIGAIL SPANBERGER (D), VIRGINIA GOV. CANDIDATE: My opponent has made light of federal workers losing their jobs saying it's not a big deal.

I would encourage everyone, our Democratic senators, our Democratic House members, our Republican House members, to work together and drive an effort --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Earle-Sears, please. Thank you. Continue.

SPANBERGER: -- to come back to the table.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Now Earle-Sears, the Republican, has centered her campaign on transgender issues leading to this lively exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SPANBERGER: I think it's incumbent upon parents and educators and administrators in each local community to make decisions locally.

EARLE-SEARS: -- that's what this is about.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Earle-Sears, we're going to get to you in a moment.

SPANBERGER: There should never be nude men in locker rooms.

EARLE-SEARS: Oh my goodness, we finally have her saying that, but you voted for that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Earle-Sears, Ms. Earle-Sears, you are just --

SPANBERGER: My opponent is lying.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: This is surely the moment Spanberger and her campaign hopes Virginia -- Virginians are talking about today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SPANBERGER: My opponent has previously said that she does not think that gay couples should be allowed to marry.

EARLE-SEARS: That's not discrimination.

SPANBERGER: Quote unquote, morally opposed to same sex marriage.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ms. Earle-Sears, this is Ms. Spanberger's time for rebuttal.

SPANBERGER: My opponent has also previously said that she thinks it's OK for someone to be fired from their job for being gay, that is discrimination.

EARLE-SEARS: But that's not discrimination.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Reporters are back. Vivian?

VIVIAN SALAMA, STAFF WRITER, THE ATLANTIC: I mean, they're certainly trying to focus on the contentious issues with the parties. I mean, focusing on transgender issues for Republicans. Obviously, you know, Spanberger is focused on trying to avoid one of the most contentious issues in Virginia right now, which is comments made by -- by Jay Jones talking about potentially shooting Republicans in the head, obviously coming at a very, very fragile time right now for rhetoric like that. Totally avoided that.

Both candidates did not even touch on the issue of the economy, which I think is very significant. It's -- it's going to be interesting to watch. Certainly ahead of the midterms, everyone looking at where Virginia goes because it was so in play last year, and they're hoping that was just a glitch.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: That's right. You know, I mean, I think so far, Earle-Sears has been a very weak candidate. You don't even see Donald Trump coming out to endorse her. And there she was, I think, in the way that she was talking about gay Americans, and oh, it would be OK to fire them, and they shouldn't be able to get married. And that's not discrimination. I think that's not going to land too well.

She has centered it on these cultural issues, and I think Spanberger has rightfully and smartly centered it on the economy because that's where people are thinking. They're thinking about their -- their own paychecks. Of course, this shutdown looms large. You did the fantastic report on it. So, listen, I don't think this moves the needle.

They're trying to tie her to Jones's comments. She's essentially saying they were terrible, and I think she's going to be able to kind of rise above it. And listen, she has a very, this isn't a good candidate. Earle-Sears is just not a good candidate, and she hasn't run a good campaign.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes, I just think that you saw on the debate stage where these candidates are in the race and how they behave. So Spanberger, as a pretty dominant frontrunner, very cautious, perhaps too cautious to some, but not really wanting to seize this as an opportunity as much as survive it, it seemed to me, and maintain her advantage.

Whereas Earle-Sears, you see, is clearly running from behind, and just the constant, constant interruption, constantly being scolded by the moderators to, like, observe the rules. You just saw that she wanted to get under Spanberger's skin, and I'm not sure she really did that.

BASH: And you mentioned the whole issue of the Democratic candidate for attorney general in this state, Jay Jones. They didn't want to talk about it, though it did come up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SPANBERGER: The comments that Jay Jones made are absolutely abhorrent. I denounced them when I learned of them, and I will denounce them every opportunity I get.

EARLE-SEARS: The question is, are you going to tell --

SPANBERGER: And importantly, the voters now have the information, and it is up to voters to make an individual choice based on this information.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZELENY: Well, Spanberger there obviously struggled to distance herself without saying he should drop out. The reality is this Democratic candidate for attorney general, he's on the ballot. Many people have already voted in this race. Early voting has been underway for several weeks. So I would be very surprised in an era of high prices, government shutdown, cultural issues, if this is something that really drives Democrats away from the polls. I think it will fire up some Republicans, perhaps, to vote in this. But overall, the big takeaway here is what a different race from four years ago when Glenn Youngkin arrived on the scene and was elected.

[12:50:24]

He beat Terry McAuliffe, of course, a longtime Democrat. It just has a different feeling out there. But the government shutdown, it's a wild card in this race. If it keeps going on until Election Day, I'm not sure exactly how that falls. But Spanberger, of course, is one of those moderate Democrats who won during the first midterm of Donald Trump being elected to Congress, a national security Democrat, so to speak. So those are her credentials here.

But to David's point, did she play it too safe last night? We'll find out on Election Day.

BASH: Yes, this is such an interesting race. All right, thanks, everybody.

Up next, why you should absolutely bring up politics and religion at the dinner table? A new study highlights faith as a bipartisan topic that is begging for more discussion.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:55:44]

BASH: It's dinner table manners 101, don't talk about religion, don't talk about politics. But that sometimes uncomfortable reality represents a dichotomy gripping American culture and society right now. The intersection of religion and politics and whether or not we're going to talk about it. Well, Brooke Zaugg is the executive editor of the Faith and Media Initiative and is here to talk about it. Now, we're going to talk about it at this table.

BROOKE ZAUGG, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, FAITH & MEDIA INITIATIVE: Yes, yes.

BASH: I do want to start with just a broad table setting --

ZAUGG: Sure.

BASH: -- stat about how influential religion is on what we talk about on this show, which is politics and how Americans vote. And this is really stunning. You partnered with Harris Polling and found 76 percent of U.S. adults say they identify as religious or spiritual, 44 percent say their faith is a factor in their vote. And so it's just such an indicator of how central faith is to people across their lives, including who they want to represent them in politics.

ZAUGG: A hundred percent, I think what you started the conversation with is perfect about, because we don't feel like we can talk about these things, there's a sentiment or kind of a cultural illusion that I've even had myself in this work that people of faith is a small and a diminishing group when in fact it's a very large, robust group.

And when you understand, we talk a lot about identity in today's culture and society, and when you understand that faith and spirituality are -- are a core tenant of people's identity, you understand how the lens in which they see the world, it's how they give meaning to their life, it's how they make core decisions in their life, including how they vote, how they engage with policy and who's going to represent them and the things that they care about as people of faith. And it's a large group, a cutting across kind of all political persuasions.

BASH: Yes, and that's really key.

ZAUGG: Yes.

BASH: It is not, I mean, if you are kind of maybe taking a stereotype --

ZAUGG: Yes.

BASH: Or a misconception.

ZAUGG: Yes.

BASH: It's that we're talking about conservatives in the South.

ZAUGG: Correct.

BASH: That is not true.

ZAUGG: Correct. The data shows that we have people across the country. Harris actually showed us that we have individuals on -- on the Democratic side, we have, it was 71 percent, independent was 70 percent, and Republicans were 86 percent. So kind of dispelling the myth that this is a small Republican conservative thing that it's actually across party lines, people have an important anchor and faith in their lives.

BASH: Yes. I mean, it's -- it's regular people.

ZAUGG: Yes. Regular people everywhere.

BASH: Everywhere. But then even if you think about politicians at the highest office, I mean --

ZAUGG: Yes.

BASH: -- Joe Biden went to mass --

ZAUGG: Yes, yes.

BASH: -- every single week.

ZAUGG: Yes.

BASH: You know, maybe he did it quietly, but it was it is a big part of his life. So there's faith in the religious aspect of it. And then there's faith and what it means to be part of the community.

ZAUGG: Yes.

BASH: And that, I think, is such an important point as we discuss sort of the fractured society and how that plays into so many epidemics in this country, including the epidemic of loneliness.

ZAUGG: Yes.

BASH: And the former surgeon general, Vivek Murthy, talked about his prescription for Americans and the community as a formula for fulfillment. Community and whether it's church or synagogue --

ZAUGG: Yes.

BASH: -- or going to a mosque, you name it, is such a core part of trying to the antidote for loneliness.

ZAUGG: Yes. It is. At the time that statement came out, Gallup actually released a study that looked at 10 years of their world poll data to see, is there a connection between mental health, well-being and spirituality? And they basically said when you are affiliated with a religious tradition or faith community, you gain a whole host of things.

The social connection of that community is one thing, but it's -- they also said it gives you a sense of purpose and meaning. It gives you positive coping skills. That community typically encourages service, which is a tremendous way to get beyond how you feel about yourself.

Dr. Lisa Miller, who was quoted in that study, talked a lot about how she said that faith traditions and spirituality can reduce the sentiments of depression and addiction by 65 percent --

BASH: Wow.

ZAUGG: -- when you have it. She said, why wouldn't you take that as a pill? So it's proven through many, many studies that it actually contributes to a better well-being overall, including the loneliness and kind of depression that comes with that. Yes.

[13:00:10]

BASH: Brooke Zaugg, thank you so much.

ZAUGG: Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.

BASH: Thanks for joining Inside Politics. I'll be here Sunday for State of the Union at 9:00 a.m. Eastern. Democratic Senator Mark Kelly and Republican Congressman Jim Jordan, the chair of the House Judiciary Committee, are among my guests. CNN News Central starts right now.