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Governors Shapiro & Cox Talked to Dana Bash on Combating Political Violence, on Addressing the Affordability Crisis; Indian Senate to Vote on New Congressional Map Tomorrow. Aired 12:30-1p ET

Aired December 10, 2025 - 12:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[12:30:00]

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO, (D) PENNSYLVANIA: -- that is, it sends a signal to others in this country that others can be scapegoated, others can be singled out, others can be targeted, or worse yet, others can become victims of political violence. I think the president has a responsibility here, as do, and I agree with Spencer, as do all Americans, to try and lift up the rhetoric and tamp down the hate. And I think the president needs to do better.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT AND ANCHOR OF 'INSIDE POLITICS': He does have the biggest megaphone, so --

SHAPIRO: Sure.

BASH: I -- and he was just speaking tonight, and he has not heeded your call to be -- to lower the temperature. But we also see some people on your side of the aisle, who also ignore that.

SHAPIRO: Yeah.

BASH: And sort of play in that dangerous space.

SHAPIRO: Part of speaking and acting with moral clarity is calling it out wherever we see it, whether it's on our side of the aisle or the other side of the aisle. Sometimes it's hardest when it's on your own side of the aisle. Listen, in Butler, Pennsylvania, where the then the former president, now the president was shot at, I called out Democrats who were celebrating the attack on his life. I called out Democrats who celebrated the killing of Charlie Kirk in Spencer's state. That is not OK. We can't accept that.

And I think we need to make sure that whether it's happening on your team or the other team, someone who agrees with you or not, we call it out across the board. I think it's also really important to not cherry pick the violence that we're going to call out. I was disappointed when the president in rattling off examples of political violence earlier this year, omitted the killing of Speaker Hortman just because she happened to be a Democrat from the state of Minnesota.

I think what we need is examples of leadership in the Republican Party like Spencer Cox, who calls it out wherever he sees it, regardless of who it is against or who is pushing that violence or pushing that heated rhetoric. I think the president needs to do better. I think there are people on my side of the aisle that need to do better. I think we need to all do better.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Up next, one of those governors is likely mulling a presidential bid. And the other one says he'd do a good job. You have to hear it to believe it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: So you won't be out campaigning for him any time soon?

GOV. SPENCER COX, (R) UTAH: I will be campaigning --

SHAPIRO: Don't do that.

COX: -- for my fellow Republican.

SHAPIRO: Tell her, don't do that. Come on.

COX: I will be campaigning for my fellow Republican.

(CROSSTALK)

BASH: (Inaudible).

(END VIDEOTAPE)

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[12:36:43]

RAJU: Affordability is the issue expected to dominate the 2026 campaign trail. So, Dana Bash took it straight to Governor Shapiro and Cox. Here's more of the conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: I want to turn to an issue that matters to every single American, well most Americans. And that is the cost of living, affordability, which the president in your state tonight said that he still thinks the word is a hoax. But, he also argues that prices are going down. Democrats are running on this issue and just in the last couple of elections this year, this off-year are winning. When you listen to the president come into Pennsylvania and talk about this issue of affordability and say, this is really just about the Biden policies that we're trying to clean up.

SHAPIRO: I mean, he's clearly not listening to the good people of Pennsylvania. On the president's watch, just over the last eight months, you've seen the average grocery bill go up 18 percent. The price of beef is up 20 percent. The price of orange juice is about 17 percent, 18 percent. Bread, poultry, all these items that people rely on each day to fill their shelves and feed their families, those prices are up. People's healthcare prices are about to go up as a result of the president's policies. 310,000 Pennsylvanians are going to lose Medicaid. 140,000 are going to lose SNAP. We've got 25 rural hospitals that are likely to shutter, which is going to place an even greater economic burden on our citizens.

I would say that this is not a hoax, but this is a moment where people really need relief. As governor of Pennsylvania, I've worked with Democrats and Republicans. I've got a divided legislature. I've worked with Democrats and Republicans to cut taxes seven times, to put money back in people's pockets. I think if you also look at the president's policies, these tariffs have been a failure. They have driven up prices. They have shut down markets for Pennsylvania farmers. He even had to come and bail out farmers because his tariff policy he acknowledged is harming them.

And at the same time, manufacturers who are domestic manufacturers in the commonwealth of Pennsylvania are seeing prices rise because of the chaos the president has created in the market. So look, I think these issues are real. People are struggling. We want the president to succeed in reducing prices. The problem is every policy he has put in place has jacked up prices. And the reason he's done it is to largely give a tax cut to those who frankly don't need that right now.

And so, look, I disagree with the president's approach, and Spencer and I may disagree on this issue, but I understand my state and I understand folks in my state are struggling. And with the president coming tonight, they do not want more rhetoric from him. They want results, the kind of results that we're providing on a bipartisan basis every day in Pennsylvania.

COX: There's -- look, there's no question that the cost of living is on people's minds. I mean, we're hearing that.

[12:40:00]

To say otherwise just wouldn't be factual. I would say that President Trump got elected on this issue. I believe that the Biden policies did hurt our country. And I believe that they do continue to hurt our country. We saw a significant increase in prices because of those policies. And I'm not sure we're quite honestly doing enough to reduce those prices right now. I can tell you, in our state, we also have had the largest tax cuts under my administration, of any administration in the history of our state, making it easier for people to do business in our state, lowering those prices, more jobs, a better economy.

We've had the number one, economy in the country for the last 10 years. Number one in GDP growth again last year. Things are going better in Utah. But even in Utah, prices are too high. The cost of housing is too high right now. We're working hard to build more housing. I've got a meeting tomorrow with the administration, with the HUD administrator, going to be talking about housing and how we can reduce the price of housing in this country because it's just way too expensive right now.

Energy is driving up the cost of everything. If you want to know why the price of beef and eggs and everything else is high, look at the price of energy. And that is because for years and years, we've been blocked in our state and in other states, especially in the West, from building the transmission lines that we need to build, from building the energy production facilities that we need to be able to build, the permitting reform that every --

BASH: You sound like Ezra Klein.

COX: Yeah. Well, Ezra Klein sounds like me. I've been saying this for years, but I'm glad that there is this abundance movement on the left that's finally catching up with what we've been arguing for. And that is, it's too hard to build stuff. It's too hard to get stuff done in this country. It's another reason we're so polarized right now. I believe this sincerely and it's one of the things I want to give Josh credit for. Before he became governor, in our administration, we had a mantra. GSD, we're only hiring people that get stuff done. He blew it up in a big way, in an awesome way when a freeway overpass burned to the ground, fell down. And in record time, he rebuilt that and got it open for his people.

If government can't deliver, if we can't build anymore, we stop building the big things. We stop dreaming big. We build an interstate highway system. We build the Empire State Building in 13 months. You can't get a permit to build a house in some places in this country in 13 months right now. Government is failing at all levels and people are tired of government and it makes us more polarized. We've got to get back to solving problems, getting permitting reform through Congress, so that we can actually build again.

And I hold Congress responsible for a lot of this. I just have to say, Congress was supposed to be the most powerful branch. They're the ones that are supposed to make this happen. That was always intended under the Constitution. And when they don't, then we have president stepping up. And then you get this, this ping pong (ph) who does things, one way it ignores Congress, another president does things another way. There's no certainty in the system right now. And that lays at the feet of Congress.

BASH: Do you think he would be a good president?

COX: Yeah, I do. I have to tell you, I think I'm very biased towards governors. I think governors make the best presidents. I just do. I think for this very reason, we always say that potholes aren't partisan. As governors, we actually have to accomplish stuff and the -- our system was set up for the states to be laboratories of democracy, so that we could learn from each other and steal ideas and that people vote with their feet. Now, if your state isn't performing, they will move to another state.

And so, I've been very impressed with what he's been able to do on the economy, with permitting reform, cutting regulations. That sounded like red state stuff, and he's doing it. And that's impressive to me. And so, yeah. Yeah. I think -- I think there are a lot of governors in this country who would make great presidents, and I think he would be one of them.

SHAPIRO: I think we need more moral clarity in this country. We need strong leaders in this country, and I think we're going to need a lot of healing in this country after three more years of Donald Trump. And I think a guy like Spencer Cox can provide that kind of healing and that moral clarity our country needs, whatever he chooses to do.

BASH: You don't have term limits in the governor's mission.

Yeah.

BASH: Are you going to run again?

COX: Yeah. I'm not going to run again. I told -- I promised the people of Utah I would only serve two terms. And I like to keep my promises. I know a lot of politicians don't do that, but I'm definitely going to do that. That will be it for me. I also just want to say that'll be it, yeah, I will be done. I also want to say, I really hope a Republican wins. I just need to point that out, but if a Republican is not going to win, I surely hope it's a Democrat who can get stuff done.

BASH: So you are --

SHAPIRO: You know what we really want to do, by the way?

BASH: What?

SHAPIRO: You could break some news right here. We want to be the GM of an NBA basketball team.

[12:45:00]

COX: This is true.

SHAPIRO: Yeah.

COX: Yeah.

SHAPIRO: So I actually think if you could somehow work that out where we could be like co-GMs, we'd have a hell of a time.

BASH: Well, that sounds good.

(LAUGH)

COX: Much more fun, I assure you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RAJU: Up next, the redistricting wars hit the Midwest. We have new details on the latest push to tip the political scales ahead of the midterms. Stay with us.

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RAJU: Missouri's Trump-backed redistricting plan faced a potential blow just yesterday, when opponents of the map submitted more than 300,000 signatures to force a public vote on the map next year. The GOP drawn map would likely give Republicans an additional seat in Congress for next year's midterms. But in Indiana, President Trump is trying to strong arm skeptical Republicans into submission.

[12:50:00]

An Indiana State Senate Committee voted this week to advance the GOP's proposed changes to House district lines. That potential map would hand Republicans two more House seats. The map heads for a final high- stakes votes tomorrow. But there is some stiff resistance and anger in the ranks among Hoosier State Republicans. GOP State Senator Greg Walker was the only no Republican vote on the committee and delivered this speech on Monday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. GREG WALKER, (R) INDIANA STATE SENATE: I refuse to be intimidated. I made a choice. I will not let Indiana or any state become subject to the threat of political violence in order to influence legislative product.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: All right, before we get into the details of Indiana, let's -- I want to take a step back about where we are now. Because remember, this is truly unprecedented, a mid-decade redistricting push. Typically, this happens at the beginning of a decade after the census to reflect a new census. Trump has pushed to do that now to help his party, started in Texas, and now we're seeing it state by state by state.

So David Chalian, you have this fancy tablet in front of you.

DAVID CHALIAN, CNN POLITICAL DIRECTOR AND WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF: and Yeah.

CHALIAN: That could break down and tell our viewers where we are nationally and what it means for the midterms.

CHALIAN: Yeah. Pure political power play, as you described. Mid- decade, and I think it's the biggest tell from the Trump administration when they launched this in Texas, that they were concerned about next year's midterm results. Keep your eye on this number here, this three. So before any of the redistricting, the Democrats are three seats away from the majority. That's how many seats they need to net gain. OK? So just keep your eye on that number throughout.

What happened? In Texas, you saw that they redrew the maps there, possibly netting five seats there. You saw that number in blue go from three to eight. So, making the hill the Democrats need to climb a bit taller. You were talking about Missouri, Manu. There's another district there that Republicans were able to redraw to their advantage. In North Carolina, they got a seat out of North Carolina. There were legal battles and court orders in Ohio, Phil, your native state. Republicans got two seats out of that. Then it was sort of Democrats starting to strike back, that Gavin Newsom-led initiative in California. See that number jump, that went back down to five. That's why that was so critical there. Wait, I'm sorry. I lost your -- the Republican numbers, sorry. Seven seats away now. Then in Utah, Democrats were able to get a seat out of that. Now that number's back down to six. So Democrats making some headway here. But that's why what's happening in Indiana, what may happen in Florida is so critical because that at the end of the day, how many seats Democrats need to win the majority is what Republicans are trying to alter here and reshape what the actual map is.

Now, I will just say, after all this back and forth, if it's six seats, if it's seven seats, if it's a wave here, I don't know that that's going to be enough.

RAJU: Yeah, that's what I was wondering. In some ways, this could be all a wash.

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN CHIEF DOMESTIC CORRESPONDENT AND ANCHOR: Which if you had told Democrats that would be the outcome at the start of this, they would've just been happy. They would've thought you were an insane person. Because of the sheer, I think, relentlessness with which it was being pursued, the overt nature with which it was being pursued, and the general compliance that you get from Republican party lawmakers wherever they are, at this point in Trump's second term, I think that is what is so remarkable about Indiana. And it's been the most fascinating political story and inter-party story in the entire country over the course of the last several months, now coming to kind of the culminating moment right now.

And literally, the Trump team has not been able to get it over the edge for the better part of the last several months with whatever they've tried. How it ends tonight or tomorrow night maybe?

RAJU: Yeah, tomorrow.

MATTINGLY: -- tomorrow night is going to be really, really indicative of kind of power dynamics going forward.

RAJU: And remember, they need a majority of their 50-member state Senate in Indiana to approve this legislation. And there are roughly about -- more than a dozen or so, there have been some concept ph of 20 or so Republicans in the state Senate in Indiana who have raised concerns or say they're outright opposed. But this has been totally different. Not just a pressure campaign of Trump saying, I'm going to primary you and you're going to lose. Some of these members have faced real threats.

TIA MITCHELL, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF, THE ATLANTA JOURNAL- CONSTITUTION: Yeah.

RAJU: Swatting incidents, bomb threats and the like. It is really an ugly situation down there.

MITCHELL: It is. And just another example of, I think there are people at home, and here's what I think gets lost. These Indiana lawmakers, not only do they not like the thought of the president coming in and upending kind of their normal cycle of redistricting, but they're hearing from constituents who say, this is not how we want you to govern. This is not the way we want, even if I am a Republican, this is not how you win elections.

And they're also looking at the numbers that say, well, when you carve up Indianapolis the way we want to carve it up, you actually put other lawmakers at risk because their seats aren't quite so safe. Up in the northern suburbs of Chicago, in the Gary Indiana area, same thing.

[12:55:00]

So it's not just, yes, the -- and then on top of that, we are trying to reflect our constituents. We're trying to reflect political realities. And we do so in a way that gets us threats and our safety is at risk. And we feel bullied, quite frankly. So it's not a great combination.

RAJU: How do you see the Indiana thing playing out?

CHALIAN: Well, listen, if the president was at 48 percent or 51 percent approval, I don't know that we'd be having much doubt about this vote. Think about these last 10 years. Think about every time you've gone to a Republican on the Hill and sort of wondered if, if there was going to be a breaking moment and it never sort of comes. This may be the example if the Indiana Senate Republicans don't go through with this. I think it may be the clearest example in 10 years of Trump's --

RAJU: Yeah.

CHALIAN: -- dominance of Republicans saying, no, we're not going your way, Mr. President.

RAJU: And that explains why Trump is putting so much pressure on these Republicans, because he's concerned about that narrative. We'll see what happens in that vote tomorrow. Thanks for joining "Inside Politics." "CNN News Central" starts after a very quick break.

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