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Inside Politics

Crowded Field Likely for 2028 Democratic Nomination; Pope Leo to Celebrate First Christmas as Pope; Ken Burns' New Series Explores America's Founding. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired December 24, 2025 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: -- in 2026. Let's listen to what he said when he announced it.

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GOV. GAVIN NEWSOM (D-CA): I hope that whatever your opinions of me are, openness and honesty I felt in writing this and living it will resonate, a rawness that perhaps equal parts revelatory and contradictory. Adapting to my dyslexia, starting and growing my own small businesses, fighting and winning political battles for same sex marriage and against the NRA. Always striving, if not sometimes succeeding, to be a present father that my kids deserve.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, he starts out by acknowledging the fact that, yes, some of you don't like me. He kind of goes in there and he's right about that. Look, there's no doubt at this point, he is ahead of the long list of people, largely because of his big success in redistricting.

Also, you know, he has a huge platform as the governor of California. But history does not often look kindly on the frontrunner from 2025 or 2026. I mean, the outyear and the outyear, often that person has a hard time staying.

BASH: The only one I can think of, and this is on the Republican side, is that stayed in it is George W. Bush.

ZELENY: George W. Bush, without a doubt.

BASH: Yes, in 2000.

ZELENY: He did. A much smaller field and a different time.

BASH: Yes.

ZELENY: But he did. You're right. The challenge, I think, for Gavin Newsom is like, what is his second act? I mean, he's been very successful here. But, again, I think it's how Democrats do in the midterm elections. If they win back control of the House or potentially the Senate, which is a tougher climb, just given how the makeup of the maps are, that is going to give Democrats a boost. If they don't, if Republicans hold control of the House and the Senate and Congress, and Gavin Newsom has been out there front and center, that's going to be tough for him. So we will see.

But I think the more important than who it is, it's what kind of Democrat people are looking for.

BASH: Yes.

ZELENY: And I do get a sense, just -- it's been a while since there's been a governor. There is a yearning --

BASH: Yes.

ZELENY: -- and a like for governors. So I throw -- you know, go out on a limb here. I do believe that governors still --

BASH: Yes.

ZELENY: -- have an advantage. We'll see if that still holds true.

EDWARD-ISAAC DOVERE, CNN SENIOR REPORTER: And I think that they will have an advantage in this idea of people thinking like, OK, what kind of government are we building from this? You're going to have a lot of Democratic members of the House and Senate who are looking at this, who will not have been doing anything for the last couple of years because they've been in the minority and they won't have actual records of it.

The bunch of governors that were on that list do seem like they will get a lot of attention that way. By the way, Newsom has his book coming out. So does Governor Josh Shapiro. So does Senator Cory Booker. Those are all coming.

And all of them -- the Booker book is an adaptation of that speech that he gave, the filibuster speech. The Shapiro book, much like the Newsom book, from what I'm told, is not the traditional like campaign book, but is more of a memoir. The Newsom one especially seems to be very personal and trying to go on --

BASH: This is who I am.

DOVERE: Yes.

BASH: Yes. Speaking of governors and specifically Josh Shapiro, towards the end of the year, I spoke at the National Cathedral with both Josh Shapiro and Republican Governor Spencer Cox. They joined there to do an event about political violence. And we talked about the idea of a governor being president, Shapiro to be specific.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Do you think he would be a good president?

GOV. SPENCER COX, (R) UTAH: Yes, I do. I have to tell you, I think I'm very biased towards governors. GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO, (D) PENNSYLVANIA: I think we need more moral clarity in this country. We need strong leaders in this country. And I think we're going to need a lot of healing in this country after three more years of Donald Trump. And I think a guy like Spencer Cox can provide that kind of healing and that moral clarity our country needs, whatever he chooses to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Was he endorsing him?

BASH: No, neither was endorsing anyone.

HENDERSON: Yes, yes.

DOVERE: That was preceded by right before you spoke to them, they were part of a program and they were asked, are you guys running for governor -- for president rather? And Governor Cox said, one of us is.

BASH: Yes, exactly.

DOVERE: One of us isn't, I think.

BASH: Yes, yes, yes. And by the way, Governor Shapiro was annoyed. I mean, he was clear joking that I put Governor Cox in that position.

ZELENY: He was in church, so he couldn't yell to you.

BASH: Yes, it was all in jest.

HENDERSON: Yes, listen, I mean, Governor Shapiro, he's from a very important state, a blue wall state. And, you know, you think about what Democrats are going to want to be thinking about, average voters. How do you win back the White House?

BASH: Yes.

DOVERE: Yep.

HENDERSON: How to be sort of pragmatic. Maybe, you know, you're going to see a fight between the progressives and the sort of centrists. But yes, they want to piece together that blue wall and get the necessary electoral votes to win.

DOVERE: It was so much a theme of every conversation that I had on the trail in 2019 and 2020. Who can win?

HENDERSON: Yes, who can get --

DOVERE: The voters really becoming pundits.

BASH: Yes.

DOVERE: And thinking that --

BASH: And that's why they picked Joe Biden.

HENDERSON: That's right. Exactly.

[15:35:00]

DOVERE: That's why they picked Joe Biden. And that is part of the argument that it seems like Shapiro would have in his favor.

BASH: We have to sneak in a break. But I do want to talk more to you about -- it's not the who, it's the what. I think it's --

HENDERSON: You think it's --

BASH: I think the what will come with the who.

HENDERSON: Yes.

DOVERE: For sure.

BASH: I think, yes, it's who gets people excited and what they believe in will become the Democratic --

DOVERE: Right.

BASH: -- the leader of the Democratic Party. Anyway, guys, Merry Christmas.

Coming up, the first American pope isn't shying away from American politics. Are Vatican watchers surprised? We're going to talk to one. CNN's papal expert is here next.

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BASH: It's been a little over six months since Pope Leo greeted Catholics at the Vatican for the first time. Since then, the first- ever American pope has taken some strong stands on politics in his home country.

[15:40:00]

He seems more than willing to clash with the White House on President Trump's signature issue, immigration.

Let's talk about this with CNN's expert on all things Vatican, Christopher Lamb. Thank you so much for being here. Merry Christmas to you. What has surprised you about the way that Pope Leo has spoken out on political issues here in the U.S.?

CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Dana, you know, as the first American pope, there's been a lot of focus on, you know, everything that he says related to U.S. politics. And I think the first thing to remember is that, you know, it was traditionally thought that there would never be an American pope. The cardinals were not going to vote for someone from the U.S. because of the political power of the United States. However, I think because of the election of President Donald Trump, that did change things and therefore, they felt, the cardinals, that they could vote for an American at this time of political turbulence, and some people say unprecedented turbulence. So, I think what surprised me is that, you know, I think Pope Leo has tried to speak out and take a stance, particularly on the immigration issue, although I think as a personality, he doesn't want to have a fight with any political leader.

But he does feel very passionately about this issue because, of course, before his election and before his time in Rome, he was a missionary in Latin America, in Peru, where he helped migrants, where he served among the people who, many of whom, have immigrated to the United States. So for him, this is a very personal issue and you can see that in the remarks he's made on this topic.

BASH: During the conclave, Pope Leo was seen as something of a middle ground between the more progressive-leaning Pope Francis and some of the more conservative factions within the College of Cardinals. How has he led? Has he proven to be that middle ground in the first six months?

LAMB: Well, I think he has really tried to be a bridge builder between different positions within the Catholic Church. There's, of course, a lot of disagreement within Catholicism, and Leo's gift is that he is able to listen to people, that he can bring people from different points of view together, he can be a mediator.

I think that's what he's done in these early months, is he's tried to listen to everyone and to try and acclimatize himself to the role. So, he's been very much, as I've said, hearing what people have got to say and continuing though, in a broad sense, with the priorities of Pope Francis, his predecessor. That's what we've learnt in essence from the first months of Leo.

I think you have to remember that he was elected Pope, having been a relatively obscure cardinal in Rome. In the space of a few minutes, he went from a position of a relatively unknown cardinal to being one of the most well-known figures in the whole world, and it has taken him some time to get used to the role and to adjust. I think the early months have seen him acclimatize and I think he's done that.

But he's very much been in listening mode. He hasn't come in with a pre-packaged agenda. He's trying to bring people together and to unify.

BASH: Christopher Lamb, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it, and I hope you have a very Merry Christmas. LAMB: And happy Christmas to you, Dana.

BASH: And coming up from 1776 to now, what would the Founding Fathers say about today's democracy? The legendary filmmaker Ken Burns will weigh in after a quick break.

[15:45:00]

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BASH: "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Thomas Jefferson's famous words set the blueprint for America. That's the subject of Ken Burns' newest film, "The American Revolution." Earlier, I spoke to him about America's blueprint and why, even with the zigs and zags, he still thinks it's a very strong experiment.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: Did the founders believe this experiment, this democracy that they came up with would last this long?

KEN BURNS, DIRECTOR AND DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER, "THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION": I think they did. You know what's so amazing, what's so moving to me, Dana, is that throughout the quotes, and of course we have the third-person narration, but 400 quotes of all the famous people, but also hundreds of others, they seem to be thinking about us. John Adams talks about the millions yet unborn. There's a sense of posterity that what we're doing now is for them.

Remember, they're sacrificing as the Declaration puts it, their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. All we have to do right now in our busy lives is stop and say, which side would I be on? Would I be willing to devote my life to a cause? Would I be willing to give up my fortune for a cause? What would I do in this case?

And what they did for us is extraordinary. I think they'd come back, they'd be not upset that somebody was trying to take more executive power. They'd be upset that Article 1 about the legislative branch had ceded so much power.

I think that would be the most disturbing thing about what's going on right now.

[15:50:00]

But I think they'd be, you know, pretty pleased. They understood, you know, that slavery was wrong. So when Thomas Jefferson says all men are created equal, he knows it's wrong, and he means all white men, but we don't mean that anymore. And I think they all knew that this was going to be a process country.

Everything had always stayed the same up until the revolution, and now we're in the pursuit of happiness. Now, we're after a more perfect union. So, the sense of the nation becoming is very much in keeping with their thinking.

So I think they could anticipate all of these things, you know, women's rights, everything.

BASH: Really? I have to say, that actually surprises me about, well, first of all, saying that Thomas Jefferson knew slavery was wrong. Talk about that. But also that they anticipated women's rights? I kind of love that, but it surprises me.

BURNS: Yes, certainly. Well, half the population was women. They're essential to the revolution. The first historian of the revolution is a philosopher named Mercy Otis Warren. They all know. Abigail Adams is saying, remember the ladies.

BASH: Yes.

BURNS: That's all we think, but she says remember to her husband, all husbands would be tyrants if they wanted to.

BURNS: And so, if you don't do something that gives us representation, we're likely to foment a rebellion. This is what she tells her own husband. So don't think that it's not in the air.

As to Jefferson, when you break out differences between the British and suddenly they become universal rights, you begin to realize that you're labeling the British are treating you like slaves, and then in your own backyard, there's a wait a second.

And as Annette Gordon-Reed, the great historian, says in our film, how could you do something that you knew was wrong? She said, well, that's the human question for all of us. She's not taking Jefferson off the hook for the hypocrisy. She's putting the rest of us back on for our own little hypocrisies that accrue over the course of a lifetime.

When he said all, as the conservative scholar Yuval Levin told me a few weeks ago, all is all. Everything is broken down. The Walls of Jericho will eventually tumble. Slavery, it'll take another four score and nine years. One hundred and forty-four excruciating years for women to get the vote, but it's going to happen.

This is what happens when you migrate these sort of differences, political differences about representation in Native American land into universal rights that the Enlightenment is telling you about. Lots of things like slavery are doomed.

BASH: I want to play a clip from your film.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE, "THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION": The policy of Congress has been the most absurd and ridiculous imaginable, pouring in militiamen who come and go every month. People coming from home with all the tender feelings of domestic life are not sufficiently fortified with natural courage to stand the shocking scenes of war, to march over dead men, to hear without concern the groanings of the wounded. I say few men can stand such scenes unless steeled by habit or fortified by military pride.

BASH: I mean, wow, wow. It's --

BURNS: Wow, that (INAUDIBLE) forever.

BASH: -- a reminder of just how absolutely unbelievable it was to fight this fight in the revolution.

BURNS: This is exactly right. Look what's going on here. He's lamenting the lack of a strong federal government that could organize the military response. He is understanding that these militiamen who are coming from their farms and their shops are not quite equipped for the meat-grinding reality of war and that in fact, Dana, the reason why, you know, democracy is not the object of the revolution. It's a consequence of it.

Why? Because the people that you do get to stay and do that fighting are teenagers and felons and ne'er-do-wells, and second and third sons without the chance of an inheritance, and out-of-work laborers and recent immigrants with no property. So what begins as a war to protect the rights of propertied men suddenly becomes fought and won by people who have little or no property at all.

It's one of the unbelievable undertows but the beauty of the revolution is it starts out as one thing and then morphs into this beautiful idea, as messy as it is, but the best form of government there is of a democracy.

BASH: Before I let you go, real quick, everybody laments the times that they are in, that it is the most divisive in the history of the country or mankind, but you know better.

BURNS: Yes, the thing that, you know, everybody's a chicken little about their own time, right? But the thing that history, the great gift of history, is it not only tells you where you've been so that you know better where you are and where you may be going. That's its great gift. Is that it also gives you a kind of optimism, right?

[15:55:00]

You've seen this before, you've seen a variation on this before and then optimism is not some naive or pejorative condition that is relegated only to jaded journalists and jetsetters. Optimism is a thing that we can share together and go back and repair. So when the patient is in trouble, you go back and you find out what their origin story.

When the country's in trouble, you find out your origin story and you're able to re-piece together. I think our divisions are big and huge, but I think they're a mile wide and an inch deep.

BASH: Ken Burns, your film is "The American Revolution" and it is yet another masterpiece and I'm so grateful that you're joining me. Thank you.

BURNS: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH (on camera): And thank you for joining "Inside Politics" today. We want to wish everybody watching a very Merry Christmas. More CNN after a quick break.

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END