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Isa Soares Tonight
Blasts Rock Russian Ammunition Depot In Crimea; Liz Cheney Faces Uphill Battle In Primaries Against Trump-Backed Challenger; Brazil Kicks Off Presidential Race; President Bolsonaro Accused Of Undermining Election System; Justice Department Urges Court To Keep Trump Affidavit Sealed; Academy Says Abuse Faced By Native American Activist Was Unwarranted And Unjustified. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired August 16, 2022 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
ISA SOARES, HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: A very warm welcome to the show, everyone, I'm Isa Soares. Tonight --
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SOARES: Blasts rock ammunitions store in Crimea, Russia calls it sabotage. And what U.S. primary races happening right now tell us about Donald
Trump's hold on the Republican Party. Then to another election season, I speak to Brazilians about their hopes as well as fears for the presidential
race. And then later this hour, an apology 50 years in the making. But what has the Academy of Motion Pictures actually done since 1973?
Well, for the second time in a week, explosions have rocked a Russian military facility inside Crimea. Have a look.
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SOARES: As you heard there, this time it was an ammunition dump, the sounds of explosions ratcheting and really -- and heavy black smoke as you
can see there, rising. Russia says it was sabotage. Ukraine isn't claiming responsibility. But a senior official is calling the blast
"demilitarization in action".
Well, Moscow is also accusing Ukrainian saboteurs of blowing up power lines at the Kursk nuclear power plant, that's about 110 kilometers inside
Russia. Meantime, five British, Swedish and Croatian nationals went on trial in Russian-occupied Donetsk, charged of being mercenaries for
Ukraine. They all pleaded not guilty. The three could face the death penalty.
It comes as Ukraine admits Russian forces are making incremental gains in the east of the country. Our senior international correspondent David
McKenzie is in Kyiv for us this hour. David, let's start off in Crimea. What more do we know happened here? And do we know critically who is
responsible?
DAVID MCKENZIE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, we don't know definitively who is responsible, Isa? But it certainly is lending this
circumstantial evidence as it builds up of Ukrainian attacks, actions, sabotage, way behind the lines in Russian-controlled territory. And the
question is, what does that mean?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
MCKENZIE (voice-over): Explosions peppering the horizon in Russian- occupied Crimea. Just a few miles away, commuters reacting in shock, filming the blast with their mobile phones.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
MCKENZIE: Even the buses moving, they say, 6 kilometers away, the bus is shaking. The blast at an ammunition depot in northern Crimea, causing
damage to power lines, a power plant, railway tracks and residential buildings, branded sabotage by Russia's military. Kyiv has not claimed
responsibility for the incident, but a Ukrainian presidential adviser called it "demilitarization in action".
It's the second major security incident in Crimea in just one week. Last Tuesday, massive explosions at a Russian airbase on Crimea's west coast,
close to beach-going tourists. A major psychological blow. The Russian Defense Ministry blaming it on accidental detonation of ammunition.
On the southern battlefield, inspectors from the Atomic Energy Agency still unable to get into the massive Zaporizhzhia power plant, to ensure its
safety. Russian officials blaming the U.N. for the delay, the U.N. denies that, saying it's ready to provide security and logistics. Russia and
Ukraine blame each other for dangerous strikes near the plant which has continued to operate.
President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, Monday, calling on the world to introduce tough sanctions as a response to Russia's quote, "nuclear blackmail".
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT, UKRAINE (through translator): The provocative shelling of the territory of the plant continues. Undercover of
the plant, the invaders are shelling nearby towns and communities. The Russian military hides ammunitions and equipment at the facilities of the
plant.
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[14:05:00]
MCKENZIE: Well, Isa, that is certainly something that hasn't been resolved yet. No inspectors have reached that Zaporizhzhia power plant. And it's
worth noting that we've been focusing on the south and in Crimea, those very intense battles happening in the eastern part of this country, in the
Donbas, arguably, the most significant moment that we're seeing right now.
The Russians are -- it seems, inching forward, the Ukrainian military is fighting, digging in, they are fighting for every inch, Ukrainians, even
though admitted that the Russians were able to take some small amount of territory, and that particular frontline has only inched along for several
months now. And it points to a very grinding extended campaign.
SOARES: David McKenzie for us there in Kyiv, Ukraine, thanks very much, David. Well, staying in Ukraine, and really, a small sign of hope. A World
Food Program ship carrying more than 23,000 metric tons of wheat has sailed from Ukraine bound for Ethiopia.
Ukraine says the Brave Commander is the seventeenth grain export ship to leave from the Black Sea ports since Ukraine and Russia, of course, struck
that deal to enable the exports almost a month ago. And we are following several major stories this hour, involving former U.S. President Donald
Trump, including his effort to see political enemies defeated at the polls.
Today, in Wyoming, house Republican Liz Cheney is in a fight of her political life, facing a Trump-backed opponent in a primary election.
Cheney is vice chair of the January 6th Committee, and voted, if you remember, to impeach Trump last year. Meantime, Trump's legal troubles may
be deepening in Georgia.
Prosecutors have informed his former attorney, you can see there, Rudy Giuliani, that he's now a target in their criminal investigation. They're
looking into whether Trump and his allies broke the law by trying to flip the 2020 election results. And a new development involving the FBI's search
of Trump's Florida home.
The Justice Department is opposing efforts to reveal why it believed criminal activity was happening at Mar-a-Lago. Says, releasing those
details could affect the ongoing probe. Let's get more on this story, starting in the state of Wyoming where Liz Cheney is facing an uphill
battle really to keep her seat in Congress, and that's where we find CNN's Jeff Zeleny. Jeff, great to see you. I mean, what does this mean for Liz
Cheney? I mean, is this her fight for political survival here?
JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF U.S. NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: It certainly is a fight for her political survival in this chapter of her public life as
a member of Congress. She served three terms, that's six years, and she is facing a very uphill challenge today. Even Congresswoman Cheney does not
expect to win.
Things could change of course, Democrats and independents are crossing over to support her, to send a message about supporting democracy and the rule
of law. But the reality is, Wyoming is a deeply Republican state. Former President Donald Trump won Wyoming with a bigger margin than any other
state in the country.
So, she faces very long odds here. The bigger question though, is what comes next? What comes tomorrow morning If she does indeed fall short. And
she will go back to being the vice chair of the January 6th Committee, they have several months of investigations and hearings left, and then she'll
serve her seat until early January.
And then after that, her aides tell me, she does plan to remain very involved, and she is trying to do what she said all along, to stop Donald
Trump from ever winning the White House again. So whatever form that would take, if she would challenge him in 2024, that's a possibility.
Or just being active as speaker, trying to, you know, sort of be a counter- messenger to him if you will. So, a few more hours left of voting here, you can see a polling place behind us in the congresswoman's hometown here in
Wilson, Wyoming. But the odds are long, and the next chapter of her political life is likely to start sooner than she may have hoped.
SOARES: The odds are long, you say, Jeff. I mean, if she does lose this, doesn't --
ZELENY: Right --
SOARES: This show that Trump still has some sort of hold here on the Republican Party?
ZELENY: It definitely shows that he still has a hold on the Republican Party, particularly in places like this, in deeply --
SOARES: Yes --
ZELENY: Conservative, deeply Trump country. It's hard to imagine a place, a terrain that is more hard of Trump country than Wyoming. But it does not
necessarily mean that it -- he's not going to have a challenger 2024, et cetera. I think all the primaries, when you add up the Summer-long activity
here in the U.S., these primary campaigns, it has shown one thing above all.
That this is still Donald Trump's Republican Party. No question about it. We'll see if Congresswoman Cheney, what her margin is at this evening, to
see, you know, how many people believe on her side. We've talked to Republican voters here who say that they support and respect what she has
done. But that certainly is in the minority overall. This -- you know, once again, it's as simple as this. It's still the Trump party --
[14:10:00]
SOARES: Let me ask you -- let me ask you this. From those you've been speaking to there, Jeff, how many people have told you they would like to
see Trump, return of Donald Trump? I mean, this will be really interesting for an international viewer here.
ZELENY: Look, it is a tough question to answer. All the voters I've talked to, all year long, all Summer long, Republican voters, we asked them, what
do you think of the former president? Would you like to see him come back? There's actually surprising number of Republicans who are not that enthused
about the personality of Donald Trump coming back.
They like his policies, but the personality will be a harder sell the second time around. Even though, you know, certainly, we're seeing right
now with the FBI, a search on Mar-a-Lago --
SOARES: Yes --
ZELENY: A lot of Republicans coming to his aid. It's a different question when you're asked to vote for him again. So, it's far too early to know the
answer to that question definitively for sure. But there is skepticism out there, lingering for a second -- a third Trump campaign and a potential
second term.
SOARES: Jeff, always great to have you. Jeff Zeleny there from Wilson, Wyoming. Appreciate it. Well, the federal judge who approved the search of
Trump's Florida home as Jeff was saying, will hold a hearing on Thursday on requests to reveal why investigators had probable cause to suspect criminal
activity.
The Justice Department wants to keep that information under wraps at least for now. CNN's Jessica Schneider is live in Washington with all the
details. And so, Jessica, what can we expect to hear on Thursday by this federal judge? What are you hearing?
JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is going to be the argument from the Trump's team, his lawyers as well as the Justice
Department. Now, it remains to be seen what Trump's team is going to argue here. We think that maybe they'll advocate for unsealing this affidavit.
But what we've already seen from the DOJ is adamantly against unsealing the affidavit. So, we saw the court filing last night, DOJ is arguing, they're
giving several reasons for not unsealing this affidavit. They're saying that it contains specific investigative techniques, and interestingly, Isa,
they say that it contains highly sensitive information about witnesses, plural.
That means, you know, reading between the lines here, that it looks like they're talking about more than one witness. And you know, it may have even
been more than one witness that tipped prosecutors off about this continued existence of classified documents at Mar-a-Lago.
And we know that's what prompted last Monday's search. So DOJ saying at this point, you know, it will compromise with some ongoing investigation if
the material in that affidavit became public. And remember, it's that affidavit that provided the basis for this judge signing off on the search
--
SOARES: Yes --
SCHNEIDER: Warrant to go to Mar-a-Lago and get these documents. So there is likely a lot of sensitive, highly sensitive detail in this affidavit
that the DOJ wants to keep out of the public view. We've heard allies of the former President Trump really being very vocal about the fact that they
think the affidavit should be opened to the public.
The question is, you know, maybe they actually don't want this, because it could be quite damaging potentially to the former president here. But this
is all going to play out in court filings, Trump's team has to respond by tomorrow morning, and then the federal judge will hear the official
arguments on this Thursday.
It's unclear how quickly the judge would rule, but you know, we don't typically see these affidavits released of the public, unsealed until
there's usually indictments. So, I would say it's likely that this is going to remain out of public view.
SOARES: Well --
SCHNEIDER: But again, this is all up to the judge in what has become a closely-watched court fight.
SOARES: But Jessica, I mean, is there any wiggle room to reveal, you know, these details? In terms of like -- what about redacting some elements?
Because that surely would help to ease some of the concerns that you are hinting there from Republicans and from the Trump camp.
SCHNEIDER: Yes, so, it's interesting because the Department of Justice addressed that exact proposition if you will, in their legal filing. And
they said that look, even if we put this out there, with all these redactions that would still protect our investigation, you basically end
up with a sheet of paper that was all black. They say that's how much information is in there that's sensitive.
So, they're saying look, we really can't release any of this affidavit, it's just too sensitive. They did say in their filing, look, we can reveal
maybe cover-sheets. We can reveal things that are kind of very procedural and more of, you know, office-type proceedings here. But we can't -- we
can't unseal the meat of this investigation, which is what this would be.
So, they really don't want anything put out there at this point. They say we've done enough, we've put out the search warrant and the receipt that
listed all of the 11 sets of classified documents. That's as far as DOJ wants to go.
SOARES: Yes, it seems it's a very meat investigation indeed, but what you --
SCHNEIDER: Yes --
SOARES: It really highlighted there. Jessica Schneider, really appreciate it, thanks, Jessica.
SCHNEIDER: Thank you.
SOARES: Well, now to Georgia, where former Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani is due to testify Wednesday before a special grand jury. CNN's Nick Valencia
has details about that criminal investigation for you.
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DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have.
NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This now infamous call --
TRUMP: And flipping the state is a great testament to our country.
VALENCIA: Helped to spark a special purpose grand jury investigation in Georgia. But it's not only what he said, but what he said, setting up a
possible showdown in Atlanta.
RUDY GIULIANI, FORMER NEW YORK MAYOR: They have now told me that I am the target -- I'm a target of their Atlanta investigation.
VALENCIA: The ex-president's former lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, now a target in the investigation into whether Donald Trump and his allies violated the law
in their attempt to flip election results in Georgia. Investigators scrutinizing Giuliani's appearances before state lawmakers in 2020, where
he peddled baseless claims of widespread irregularities and voter fraud, attacking voting machines.
GIULIANI: Whether you're a Republican or a Democrat, this is not a machine you want counting your votes.
VALENCIA: And a week later, Georgia election workers.
GIULIANI: They look like they're passing out dope, not just ballots. It is quite clear they're stealing votes.
VALENCIA: Those statements came after other false claims Giuliani made regarding the Georgia recount following Trump's loss.
GIULIANI: They're counting the same fraudulent ballots. The recount being done in Georgia will tell us nothing. Because these fraudulent ballots will
just be counted again.
GEORGE CONWAY, CONSERVATIVE LAWYER: In the case of Rudy Giuliani, you know, his involvement in all the other stuff, but also his involvement in
attempting to influence the Georgia legislature, and making false statements to the Georgia legislature about the existing -- existence of
fraud.
And you know, you can't make -- you know, you can say whatever you want on TV, but if you make false statements to the government and government
officials like legislators, that's potentially a crime.
GIULIANI: We're starting to live in a fascist state.
VALENCIA: Giuliani on Monday, seeming to give a glimpse into a possible defense.
GIULIANI: I was his lawyer of record in that case. The statements that I made are either attorney-client privilege because they were between me and
him, or they were being made on his behalf in order to defend him.
JOHN DEAN, FORMER NIXON WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: There is something called the crime fraud exception. And if they're sitting and talking about criminal
activity, there is no -- there's no attorney-client privilege.
VALENCIA: The news about Rudy Giuliani being targeted come in the same day a judge ruled that Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina must
testify before the Fulton County grand jury. He denies pressuring Georgia's Secretary of State to toss legal ballots, and is expected to testify next
week. Giuliani is expected to appear Wednesday, no word if he'll invoke his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination.
DEAN: I think this is a -- moving ahead at full speed, and I expect that it will be a pretty devastating case that will include Donald Trump.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SOARES: And that was Nick Valencia reporting there. And in just about 15 minutes or so, I'll speak to Republican political strategist about Trump's
base and the party are digesting of course, all these headlines. You don't want to miss that one. But first, next hour, Iran nuclear deal may be on
the cusp of being revived. We'll look at the terms, conditions, as well as the possibilities. That's next.
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[14:20:00]
SOARES: Well, Iran may be inching closer to reviving the 2015 nuclear deal. Tehran has responded to the European Union's latest proposal, saying
an agreement can be reached if America's response is also realistic as well as flexible. CNN's senior international correspondent Fred Pleitgen joins
me now live to discuss.
And Fred, from what I understand, Iran is looking for guarantees, and of course, if a future U.S. administration withdraws from the deal, the U.S.
will have quote, "a price to pay." Do we know what sort of compensation Iran is looking for here?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it certainly doesn't look like it's monetary compensation or anything like
that. But you're absolutely right. The Iranians want guarantees that it would be difficult for the United States to leave the deal once again. And
of course, it's something that we always have to point out, and we talk about this.
It's the U.S. that wants to get back inside the Iran nuclear agreement, and now, it's essentially the Iranians laying out their terms for that to
happen. And one of the main issues that the Iranians have, is that they feel burned by the United States. They feel burned by the fact that when
the Trump administration left the Iran nuclear agreement, they had essentially destroyed large parts of their nuclear program.
At the same time, they were then hit with these really tough sanctions. So those are two things that the Iranians are looking at right now. On the one
hand, it seems as though this time, when they start, you know, complying fully once again with the terms of the Iran nuclear agreement, they
essentially want to not destroy some parts of that nuclear arsenal that they -- or that nuclear inventory that they have.
But for instance, unplug centrifuges so that they could activate them once again in case the United States decides to leave the agreement again. So
that it would be possible for them to ramp up their nuclear program once again, if the U.S. stopped complying and left the agreement.
At the same time, they also want guarantees for companies that do business with Iran to make sure that those companies are not afraid to invest in
Iran. That countries --
SOARES: Right --
PLEITGEN: Aren't afraid to do business with Iran as well. Those are I think as close as the Iranians want to get to guarantees. But the Iranians
have also told me that they completely understand, that they cannot stop the U.S. from leaving the agreement again. But they want to make it a price
as you've pointed out, and as the Iranians have said, to make sure the U.S. understands that there would be a price if they left the agreement again.
Isa?
SOARES: Fred, I heard you say earlier on our air, there was a good degree of kind of optimism. But what you really just highlighted there, kind of
shows that Iran doesn't really trust the U.S. here. And do they believe from your sources, Fred, this can be signed off crucially in the U.S. right
now?
PLEITGEN: Well, I think none of the trust -- none of the sides trust each other. There's obviously almost zero trust between the U.S. and Iran, and
obviously, it's very difficult also for the interlocutors like for instance the European Union. To get all of this on track, I think that the Iranians
right now think that, look, whether it's difficult or not for the U.S. to sign off on this or to agree to these expanded terms that the Iranians are
laying out now.
They really say, that's up for the U.S. to decide. The Iranians for their part are saying that they believe that the changes that they want to the
text that was put forward by the European Union, that those are doable. They've also quite frankly said they believe that the text as it is right
now has already gone a long way to come towards the Iranians.
So they think that what they're asking right now is not a massive ask. They think it's something that can be done. However, at the same time, of
course, we know from covering all of this over the past couple of months that there is very little trust on either side, or on all the sides that
are negotiating with one another.
And of course, there can be some massive sticking points. And right now, the Iranians believe that the court is in the ball -- it says that the ball
is in the court of the United States, and that the U.S. needs to respond, and it's certainly something where the Iranians say, they believe something
can be done. But they also keep saying, we're not there yet. Isa?
SOARES: Right, Fred Pleitgen, I know you've been monitoring all of it for us. Appreciate it, Fred Pleitgen for us there from Moscow. And still to
come tonight, the first round of Brazil's presidential elections is less than two months away. Instead of rallying for a specific candidate, some
voters are marching for democracy itself. I'll explain next.
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[14:25:00]
SOARES: Welcome back, everyone. Well, Brazil's President Jair Bolsonaro kicked off his re-election campaign just hours ago. He is expected to make
it to the runoff, and so is Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva who led the country, if you remember, from 2003 to 2010. So far, the leftist former president is
ahead of the far-right incumbent in the polls.
His lead has fallen in the past few months. One thing is for certain. This is shaping up to be one of the most divisive presidential campaigns in
Brazilian history.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(CROWD CHANTING)
SOARES (voice-over): The presidential campaign has only just started. But many are already afraid of how it may end. With hundreds marching in the
capital in defense of Brazilian democracy.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): It happened in the United States of America, and it is happening in this country. The constant attack
against our democratic institutions.
SOARES: The man they say is stoking this fear is the incumbent president himself, who has been repeating baseless attacks on the electoral system,
promising his opponent a tough fight as he launched his bid for a second term.
JAIR BOLSONARO, PRESIDENT, BRAZIL (through translator): We are the majority. We are the good ones and we are willing to fight for our freedom
and our homeland.
SOARES: For over a year, Bolsonaro has been criticizing electronic voting, saying without any evidence, that it's open to fraud. He's called for
printed ballots to be used alongside electronic ones. And in doing so, has his eyes fully on the presidential prize.
BOLSONARO: I have three alternatives for my future. Jail, death or victory.
SOARES: It's a rhetoric that both his staunch supporters and party fully back.
AUGUSTO ROSA, VICE PRESIDENT, LIBERTY PARTY (through translator): We believe President Bolsonaro's criticism to be valid. We have a portion of
society, around 15 percent to 20 percent, which also doubts electronic ballots.
SOARES: But what his party says is a quest for transparency, many argue is dangerous rhetoric, even prompting civil society figures to sign a letter
for democracy and manifesto in defense of democratic values. Judge Luis Barroso was the president of the Supreme Electoral Court until the
beginning of the year, helping organize elections at a national level. He tells me the need for a manifesto show some are afraid for Brazilian
democracy.
LUIS BARROSO, JUSTICE OF THE BRAZILIAN SUPREME COURT: The number of times that people ask me if I fear a coup d'etat means that there is something
strange going on.
SOARES: And for the man vying for Bolsonaro's job, the perceived threat on democracy has a clear origin.
LUIZ INACIO LULA DA SILVA, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, WORKERS PARTY (through translator): Every day he offends the Supreme Court. Every day, he offends
an electoral justice, and every day he offends those who do not like him.
SOARES: Returning to the ballot after more than a decade on the sidelines and after being convicted for corruption, the former President and
Bolsonaro's main opponent says he wants to focus on Brazil's post pandemic recovery.
LULA DA SILVA (through translator): I am older but I am much better with much more strength and with much more courage to make this country succeed.
SOARES: But Brazil's success is dependent on a smooth election despite the rhetoric from populist President Jair Bolsonaro, Judge Barroso tells me the
electoral system is strong enough to handle the criticism and says there's some good news.
BARROSO: Around 80% of the population trust the system despite all the attacks, we've been suffering. And our role is to assure that whoever wins
in the October elections will be inaugurated on January the first and the plane is going to land safely.
SOARES: Still, as the campaign kicks off, and the rhetoric hardens, political turbulence cannot be ruled out, and the ride could still be
bumpy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SOARES: Well, President Bolsonaro denies he has any intention of carrying out a coup even though he has hinted multiple times, he will not step down
in the event, he is defeated as you heard on that piece.
I want to bring in Brazilian Journalist Patricia Campos Mello, who joins me now. Patricia, really great to have you on the show. The campaign, as we've
seen is officially in full swing and I just want to show our viewers some scenes we're seeing now from Sao Bernardo do Campo from the state of Sao
Paulo, there we are seeing live images of Lula -- Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva officially launching his election campaign at a Volkswagen plant, I
believe. So really, Patricia, we are seeing really Lula still leading in terms of polling but the gap is narrowing. How is Bolsonaro gaining ground,
do you think in your view?
PATRICIA CAMPOS MELLO, BRAZILIAN JOURNALIST: Well, the race is much tighter than we imagined it was going to be. And I think mainly, there's a lot of
disinformation circulating mainly towards evangelical voters. He's gaining a lot of terrain among evangelical voters and women. So there's a lot of
free calculation among the campaigns of how to, you know, proceed from now on.
SOARES: One of the allegations, that's you know, what the fake news, let's say, that I have heard in the last -- in the last few hours from the
Bolsonaro kind of machine is that, you know, that Lula, for example, will call -- will close all the evangelical churches in in Brazil. And of
course, for our viewers just to get an understanding here. This is the beef, bibles and bullets kind of base. What do you think -- how do you
think that Bolsonaro is going to ramp up this fake news machine, you think as we head up to October the second?
CAMPOS MELLO: I think he has structure -- a disinformation structure that has been in place since 2018. They have 1000s and 1000s of WhatsApp and
telegram groups where a lot of disinformation or just propaganda is being disseminated. So for the other parties, or even the electoral courts to
counter this disinformation is very complex because they don't have such a structure. And it's very hard to make quality information or fact checking
go viral.
SOARES: What I've been hearing for the past year or so for several people, actually, different echelons of society in Brazil, is they're very much
fearful, Patricia, of an attack on democracy especially of course as Bolsonaro calls into question, as we heard that the kind of the electronic
voting system, how real is this fair? The Bolsonaro won't accept defeat if he does lose?
[14:35:01]
CAMPOS MELLO: It's very real unfortunately and it's very unfortunate that we're discussing this almost 45 years after the end of the military
dictatorship. But he's been sowing doubts about the electoral process and the electoral system and electronic voting machines for the past two years,
actually, right after January 6, the capitol invasion in the U.S., he said that if we did not change our system, it would be much worse than what
happened there in the U.S. So I have no doubt that we have a slow motion coup going on. He's doing this preemptively in case he loses he's not going
to accept the results.
SOARES: This is very worrying, indeed. I mean, if this -- if you think that we could be seeing something like we saw January 6 in the capital, that's
very worrying, indeed. Where does the military Patricia stand on this?
CAMPOS MELLO: That's the real question. We're not sure if the military would support a coup d'etat. But as we saw in the capital invasion, on
January 6, we could have social unrest and in Brazil since the beginning of Bolsonaro's administration, we have 1 million more guns circulating in the
country. So this is very scary if we have a situation that he disputes the results, and he incites supporters to go to the streets and people now have
lots more -- a lot more guns circulating. So we don't know if he would be successful in a coup if the military would support him. But even if he's
not, which is, you know, it's very likely that he would not be successful. We would -- we could have some violence, a lot of violence.
SOARES: Look, we've mentioned, we're talking about Bolsonaro. But of course, we haven't mentioned Lula. That's because he's a very well-known
face to our viewers. But some are still pretty uneasy about his return because there's a bit of a tarnished icon, Patricia, can he appeal to a
divided Brazil, can he unite Brazil?
CAMPOS MELLO: There's the anti-Workers Party, anti-Lula sentiment among parts of the population is very strong, because all the corruption scandals
during the Workers Party administrations, people remember this very vividly. And that's why they voted for Bolsonaro in 2018, because they were
really sick of all the corruption scandals. At the same time, people also remember that in the first Lula administration, we had income distribution,
and people had more money to spend on food, and now it's very difficult with food, inflation and unemployment. So the Lula campaign is betting that
people are going to weigh these two things, you know, the economy and how much money they used to have during the Lula years against, you know,
corruption scandals and all the -- everything that happened and his -- when he was in prison, and that they they're going to vote for Lula because of
this, you know, memories of good times.
SOARES: Yeah, and some remember the golden years and with inflation, not what almost 12% I think many people just want to put food on the table
right now. Patricia Campos Mello, we're always great to get you in the show. Thanks Patricia.
CAMPOS MELLO: Thank you.
SOARES: Now, I want to return now to the state and federal investigations involving former U.S. President Donald Trump we mentioned earlier, we're
joined by CNN Political Commentator, Scott Jennings, a prominent conservative voice, he was a special assistant to former President George
W. Bush, and is now a columnist for USA Today.
Scott, always great to have you on the show. Let me start with the U.S. -- with the Justice Department not wanting Of course, as we've been reporting,
to unseal that affidavit. Some of the comments that I've been reading on Twitter from Republicans is that this has been sealed to show that this was
not a fishing expedition, was one of the common signs that we've read. What are you hearing? How much are they pushing for this to be unsealed here?
SCOTT JENNINGS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yeah, I'm hearing much of the same, actually. And thanks for having me on the show, by the way. The
Republicans want to know, was it -- you know, was this necessary? I mean, these documents had been at President Trump's home for presumably a year
and a half. And they just now made the decision to go in and get them. And we're only 90 days from an election here. And so Republicans are just
skeptical that this was a necessary raid on a former president's home, who, by the way, is probably going to run for president again.
I do think there have been bipartisan calls in the U.S. Congress, from the intelligence committee, for them to see the documents and I think that's a
reasonable thing that could be done here for the DOJ to show the leaders of the Intelligence Committee in the Senate, you know, here's what we found,
and then judgments can be made about whether this really was a threat to national security or not.
SOARES: What we heard the DOJ saying is that that would compromise the investigation. Do you think, Scott, if they redacted it would appease those
Republicans politicians?
JENNINGS: I think that as long as there is opaqueness in this investigation, Republicans at large are going to be skeptical. In my
opinion, the way through this for DOJ is to show the leaders of the Intelligence Committee in a secure location, you know, they look at
documents like this all the time and then they can make their judgments about whether they think this investigate investigation is valid or not. So
if you don't want to release the document publicly, if you think it's that sensitive, one way to possibly compromise it is to show the people in
Congress who have the clearance to see it.
[14:40:18]
SOARES: Would that be enough, Scott, for Republican voters, for Trump supporters?
JENNINGS: Yeah, it won't be enough for Trump supporters, no. I mean, they believe, and I'm just, you know, this is what they believe that the Biden
administration, Merrick Garland and sort of the Washington regime or the swamp as they would call it, had been constantly out to get Donald Trump
since 2015, whether it's impeachment or investigations, the Russia investigation, you name it. And so they see this as a continuation of all
of that, and for them to say, well, we have these documents, but you're not allowed to look at them. It is driven just a massive amount of skepticism.
And I actually think it's given it may be temporarily, but a short term boost to Donald Trump's prospects to become the Republican nominee once
again in 2024.
SOARES: I was going to ask you that, I mean, the fact that he's, in many ways, he's rallying his base with that actually not having to do much, but
for Trump himself, how damaging do you think this could be politically for him, Scott, and those who have supported him?
JENNINGS: Well, I think ironically, it will -- what help -- what could help him among some Republican voters might ultimately hurt him, should he be a
general election candidate, again. Remember, he's running for president twice, he's never won the national popular vote. And so I personally
believe he's the least likely Republican to win the White House in 2024. But he's currently the most likely Republican to win the Republican
nomination. So it's -- the Republicans are in a bit of a catch '22 here and that we may nominate someone who has very little chance of recapturing the
White House against the Democrats next time around.
SOARES: And, you know, what you clearly outlined there is that what this Mar-a-Lago FBI search has done is, you know, what I've seen is like a
torrent, Scott, of outrage from his supporters. How much has this changed, Scott, though, the political, the American political landscape? You talked
earlier about how he may galvanize Trump voters to turnout in the midterms?
JENNINGS: Well, I think one thing that -- and I'm hearing this anecdotally and so, you know, I like to marry my political analysis with data. And I
don't really have data yet. But my hunch is, this is going to spike Republican interest in the midterms, particularly among the people who
support Donald Trump the most, we have seen a lot of new Republicans come into the party who voted for Trump, and voted in the presidential
elections. They don't have a long history of voting in midterms, and we're coming up on a midterm here. So I have a hunch that this new attack, that's
how they would see it on Donald Trump is going to cause perhaps a spike in his supporters who turn out to vote for him that maybe don't participate in
the elections. This is -- this may move them to the polls in November, you can see an enthusiasm bump, I guess, would be the way to say it for
Republicans at large.
SOARES: I want to move in -- move on to Georgia if I can and get your thoughts on Georgia, because of course, Rudy Giuliani is now the focus of a
criminal probe. How damaging could this potentially be to former President Trump?
JENNINGS: Well, a lot of Republicans, myself included, have thought that the Georgia investigation has been the most dangerous for Donald Trump.
It's the one piece of this where you actually have Donald Trump's voice on a telephone call, with the Secretary of State saying I'm trying to find
this specific number of votes. We've all heard the famous call now. And obviously, Rudy Giuliani was heavily involved in that. And so I actually
think this piece of it is, is potentially the most dangerous to him, and the people that were around him trying to, you know, change the outcome of
the election after the fact. So, again, his hardest core supporters will all, you know, will think this is all, you know, a witch hunt or whatever.
But in this particular case, you actually have Donald Trump's voice on the phone. So he was involved. Giuliani was involved. Several other people
actually think there are several people around Donald Trump, who could be in jeopardy here. We'll see how the investigation unfolds. But this one's
obviously moving along at a pretty fast clip.
SOARES: Yeah. And so it helped me, you know, put this all into perspective, Scott, for an international viewers. We have, you know, various
investigations is underway, as we've just outlined, at the same time, we can see President Trump still having some sort of hold in Wyoming today's
primary election, how much space or shall I say, love is that for President Trump within the Republican Party?
JENNINGS: Well, he's certainly the most influential person in the Republican Party. But there have been instances where people who have taken
him on have found a way through Georgia, which we were just speaking of, a couple of months ago, we had a primary there, the governor of Georgia was
opposed by Donald Trump. The Secretary of State was opposed by Donald Trump, and they actually defeated their Trump back challengers. And the way
they did it was by ignoring Donald Trump, they just pretended like it didn't exist and they managed to win.
In Alaska today, we have a primary and Senator Lisa Murkowski, I expect she's going to move on and the rank choice system up there. She's largely
avoided and just ignore Donald Trump as well even though she voted for impeachment.
[14:45:03]
In Wyoming, the difference is Liz Cheney who was a vote for impeachment has made getting rid of Donald Trump out of politics, her life's mission. And
so instead of casting a vote and moving on, she's cast a vote for impeachment, and then has turned this into her life's mission. That's the
real difference between her and some of the people that we've seen make it through their primaries here during the American season.
SOARES: Scott, always wonderful to speak to you. I wish we had more time. I really appreciated, Scott Jennings joining us live from New York. And we'll
be back after a very short break, do stay right here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOARES: Well, China is now one of the many countries around the world being hit with soaring temperatures. The country issued its highest heat alert
for more than 200 cities with temperatures expected to exceed 40 degrees Celsius.
In Spain, three wildfires have burned more than 10,000 hectares since the weekend, look at that. And in the United States a historic drought is
threatening hydropower capabilities at the Hoover Dam, which usually provides enough energy for around 1.3 million Americans each year.
And still to come on the show tonight, the Academy behind the Oscars apologizes for abuse faced by a Native American activist more than half a
century ago. We'll explain, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:51:28]
SOARES: Welcome back. Well, she was booed on stage at the 1973 Oscar ceremony and faced backlash from the entertainment industry, all for
standing up against the misrepresentation of Native Americans in film. Now, nearly half a century later, actress and the activist, Sacheen
Littlefeather received an apology from the Academy. Littlefeather decline Marlon Brando's best actor award on his behalf, which he received for his
role in the movie you're looking at right now, The Godfather.
Well joining me now on this is entertainment journalist Segun Oduolowu in Los Angeles. Segun, great to have you on the show. So the obvious question
is why now? Why 50 years later? Why didn't they do it sooner?
SEGUN ODUOLOWU, ENTERTAINMENT JOURNALIST: Isa, it's great to be here. Let's first say that the only person who's shown class in this is Sacheen. And
she has remained dignified and classy. But this apology is like a dog barking with no teeth. And it is typical of the Academy for like 50 years
ago, Marlon Brando cowardly did not show up and asked her to go in his stead. And it's not enough to acknowledge that Native Americans were being
misrepresented in film, but he left her there to take the boos backstage. She was only 27 years old at the time, right and faced boos and some
smattering of applause.
But John Wayne had to be restrained from assaulting her, right? The epitome of American macho cowboy, right, that has -- that has, you know, he himself
who has a history of in the conqueror, playing an Asian -- an Asian character playing Genghis Khan, this is par for the course for the Academy.
And it's unfortunate because if we look, this 50 year old apology does not erase what currently goes on in Hollywood, right?
Let's just look at some of the different appropriation, right, Al Pacino as Scarface, right, as Tony Montana.
SOARES: Yeah.
ODUOLOWU: Al Pacino again in Carlito's Way. OK. Hank Azaria in the Birdcage, like I can do this all day and talk to you about actors that have
been playing -- that aren't, you know, are misappropriating the culture of other races. So the academy really needs to clean up this mess. Any apology
50 years later, when it has a history of doing even worse, to me is not enough. I know that she took the high road. But let me take the low road
for a moment and call the academy out.
SOARES: I mean, it has me scratching my head, the fact that you've just what you've just laid out, Segun. I mean, clearly, you know, we know Marlon
Brando had rejected the award because of mis-presentation of Native Americans. I mean, what you're saying is that nothing has improved in the
last 50 years, had they been represented at all in movies or in series right now?
ODUOLOWU: Quite recently, there is a television show called Reservation Dogs that shows Native American life and has a Native American cast. The
movie prey that has just come out is an all Native American cast, but more needs to be done. We've had #OscarsSoWhite, where African Americans have
talked about the misrepresentation, and cultural appropriation in Hollywood afflicted to us, Native Americans really need to start getting their fair
share as well as Latinos as well as Asians, and all indigenous and people of color, because it's going to take a three step in my opinion, a three
step plan to stop this. Number one, white actors and actresses need to stop accepting these roles that they know our cultural appropriation.
[14:55:08]
Two, they should like Marlon Brando did a little bit, point out the injustice and promote a character or promote an actor who is indigenous for
that role. And lastly, look the studio's hire one of us that look like you and I to be in the room to tell them frankly, this ain't just got -- this
ain't going to fly, this is just wrong.
SOARES: So Segun, it goes back to my first question, why does the academy then feel that now is the moment? Because correct me if I'm wrong, the
viewing figures from the last Oscars? Well, they weren't great, were they?
ODUOLOWU: Well, and seeing this is all PR spin, this is covering the collective behind of the academy, that since that last Oscar show, as we
know what Will Smith did on stage and wasn't reprimanded and still won. You know, the best actor award. This is the academy doing its best to spin and
cover but again, a 50 year old apology when you have during that actual ceremony, there were jokes and snickering and comments by other actors,
Clint Eastwood himself made light of what she did. Raquel Welch made light of what she did. And none of these actors and actresses had been held to
task.
Hollywood needs to start holding itself to task because there's a big difference between acknowledging the problem and atoning for your mistake.
They want to acknowledge 50 years later, they made a mistake, but I have seen very little in the form of atonement.
SOARES: Yeah.
ODUOLOWU: And that's the sad part.
SOARES: Yeah, not just talk the talk but actually walk the walk.
ODUOLOWU: Absolutely.
SOARES: Segun, always great to have you in the show. I appreciate it.
ODUOLOWU: Thank you for having me. Good to see you.
SOARES: And that does it for me. As always, thank you. And that does it for me. Thanks very much for your company. Do stay right here with "QUEST MEANS
BUSINESS" is next with Richard Quest, himself.
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END
