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Isa Soares Tonight
Tech Experts Testify On Potential Dangers Of AI; Twitter, Google Not Held Liable For Terror-Related Content; Zelenskyy Urges Arab League to Help Protect Ukrainians; G7 Unveils New Russia Sanctions Ahead of Zelenskyy's Arrival. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired May 19, 2023 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CHRISTINA MACFARLANE, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello and welcome, I'm Christina Macfarlane in for Isa Soares. Tonight, multiple meetings of the
diplomatic minds. The Arab League convenes in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, with special guest, Volodymyr Zelenskyy. The Ukrainian president once had to
hold out in Kyiv bonkers at the start of Russia's invasion of his war.
Now, he's on the world stage appealing to those who he says turned a blind eye. From there, Mr. Zelenskyy will travel to Japan, where G7 leaders are
already putting their heads together on issues, ranging from training Ukrainians on fighter jets to regulating artificial intelligence. More on
both of those important conferences straight ahead.
But first, a CNN exclusive that underscores the balance international diplomacy requires in this interconnected world. Our Becky Anderson sat
down with Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan who is doing everything he can to maintain ties with both the West and Russia. We start this hour with
part of their conversation.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BECKY ANDERSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Do you genuinely believe, as you suggested last Saturday, that Joe Biden wants to topple you?
RECEP TAYYIP ERDOGAN, PRESIDENT, TURKEY (through translator): How could someone who is going into a run-off election, instead of completing the
election in the first around, be a dictator? That is the reality. We have an alliance with 322 MPs in parliament. And the leader of this alliance is
going to go for the runoffs in the first position. What kind of a dictator is that?
ANDERSON: So, if re-elected, are you saying that you will work with the Biden administration -- you can work with the Biden administration?
ERDOGAN: Without a doubt, I will work with Mr. Biden. And if Biden goes, then I will work with whoever replaces him as well.
ANDERSON: You've said that you don't agree with the attitude of the West towards Russia, with regard, the Ukraine conflict. That the West follows a
policy based on provocation. I just want to get your sense of where you believe the West perhaps is going wrong here. Is this military and
financial aid that we see at present a provocation to your mind?
ERDOGAN: The West is not leading a very balanced approach. You need a balanced approach towards a country such as Russia, which would have been a
much more fortunate approach. For example, the Black Sea Grain Corridor Initiative, we are not only considering the interests and the needs of the
western countries, but also that of the African nations.
This grain corridor initiative has been extended for another two months, beginning on the 18th of May. How do you think it was possible? It was
possible because of our special relationship with President Putin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACFARLANE: And Becky Anderson joins us now live from Istanbul with more on her interview with President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Good to see you, Becky.
This is a brilliant and wide-ranging interview, Becky, that I think everyone should take the time to watch in full. Regarding though, Becks,
what we just saw, when it comes to diplomacy and in particular, the grain deal he was referencing there, it's hard to argue that Turkey's continued
relationship with Russia has not been useful.
But we also know, Becky, that this is a reciprocal relationship, and very much in Erdogan's interest to keep Russia on side, regardless, of how the
western countries may be viewing this.
ANDERSON: Yes, the relationship between Turkey and Russia is hugely important to Ankara. The energy, trade and tourism ties that the two
countries have generate something like $30 billion or $40 billion annually. That's twice the sort of trade Turkey sees with, for example, the U.S. So,
its relationship with Russia is hugely important.
Look, like him or not, and he has many detractors, not just here in Turkey, but in capitals in Europe and the U.S., not least, Joe Biden, who on the
campaign trail accused him of being an autocrat, criticized his policy on the Kurds, and said at the time -- and this is back in the Summer of 2020,
that he supports the Turkish opposition who are trying to unseat him here.
Like him or not, he has this incredible position on the world stage, not least when it comes to Ukraine at the moment. Look, Turkey is a NATO
member. It has condemned Russia's invasion of Ukraine. But it retains this incredibly close ties to Russia and has for that reason not agreed to sign
up to western sanctions, which certainly, the Biden administration would like to have seen Turkey do.
It continues, of course, to have very good relations with China as well, with Iran, with the wider region here, as Turkey has recently rehabilitated
its relations with, for example, Saudi Arabia and the UAE. What happens in this runoff election here, this second round, nine days from now, between
President Biden and his presidential opponent Kemal Kilicdaroglu is enormously consequential.
And nobody should underestimate just how important it is. This is a country of 89 million people. It sits on the crossroads of east and west. But as
I've just explained, it has some really, uniquely important positions when it comes to global affairs at present. And we also talked about two other
things, which I think were important. Firstly, President of Turkey holds the keys to whether Sweden gains membership to NATO.
And I asked him specifically, are you prepared to allow Sweden into that NATO alliance? And at present, he said he isn't. He doesn't see Sweden
having come good on certain issues, not least what he describes as Kurdish terrorists walking the streets of Swedish capital. That is something, of
course, that Sweden denies. So, that is a really critical issue.
And where President Erdogan to win in this runoff election next Sunday, he will be making a decision on that. So, that is really important. And it's
the wider story here, is of where Turkey goes next and how it fits in on the global stage.
Excuse me. The other important thing is whether he rehabilitates his relationship with the Syrian president. Have a listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ERDOGAN: In the past, we used to have positive relations with Assad's family. Our families used to get together. It was at that level. But then,
certain developments unfolded, unfortunately, that led to the deterioration of our relationship, and that fracture upsets us as well.
Recently, due to my friendship with President Putin, we thought we could open a door, specifically in our fight against terrorism in the northern
part of Syria, which requires close cooperation and solidarity. If we can do that, I said I see no obstacle would remain in the way of our
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACFARLANE: And Becky, I think Erdogan there, making the point that we've made at the very beginning, that this is a reciprocal relationship. And
it's strategically very important one to Russia, especially when it comes to re-establishing ties with Syria, as we heard there. We know of course,
Syria appearing at the Arab League Summit today.
As I say, Becky, it is a very important interview at this time, very instructive as we look ahead to that runoff election. Thank you for
bringing that to us. Now, more on the Ukrainian president's surprise appearance at the Arab League Summit in Jeddah, Volodymyr Zelenskyy urged
leaders there to take an honest look at Russia's war on Ukraine, accusing some of turning a blind eye to the atrocities Mr. Zelenskyy frequently made
appeals to Ukraine's staunch western allies, but this was a very different audience.
Some Arab League states have remained largely neutral on the war, while Syria now back in the fold actively supports Russia. Mr. Zelenskyy urged
members to strengthen ties with Ukraine.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT, UKRAINE: I invite you to cooperate directly with our country without any intermediaries. And make our and your friends
act in a coordinated manner for the peace and good of people of all nations. I'm also sure all your nations will understand the main call I
want to leave here in Jeddah, a noble call to all of you to help protect our people, including Ukrainian Muslim community.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACFARLANE: Well, let's get more now from our Nic Robertson. He is following the story tonight from eastern Ukraine.
And Nic, as I was saying there, we know that many Arab leaders at this summit are maintaining warm relations with Russia, not least, Syria, of
course, one of the closest allies in the region. So, how were these appeals from President Zelenskyy received by this audience? And is anything likely
to come from them?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Yes, I think Zelenskyy is playing for the long-term here. He knows that the Arab leaders, and many
of these Arab leaders buy into President Putin's propaganda, that its western hegemony and NATO, that is threatening and attacking Russia. And
this is why Putin had to invade Ukraine.
There are many diplomats from the Gulf that I've spoken to have said, essentially, what Putin has said that actually Ukraine isn't actually a
real country, and it is part of the greater Russia. So, that's a narrative that Zelenskyy is keen to disrupt, and is building a good relationship with
the Saudis. And Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman has really opened the door for Zelenskyy here to have a voice at the Arab League meeting in Jeddah.
It was at the Crown Prince's invitation, Saudis giving hundreds of millions of dollars in humanitarian aid. They have an eye on helping Ukraine in the
future because they're invested in Ukraine and its infrastructure, and its agriculture, and its industry in the past. So, that relationship exists.
Zelenskyy sees, and he said it as a way to just sort of build on that positive relationship that the Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman has with
But it's a door that's opening, if you will, because Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman himself wants to play a bigger diplomatic role in bringing peace
between Ukraine and Russia, has close personal ties with Putin, has a shared view of the economy because both countries are massive oil
So, there's a sort of a symbiosis here, but it's a door-open for Zelenskyy in the longer term to convince more countries who sit around, they -- who
sit at the United Nations, who ultimately may have a say and a voice in the sort of peace that Ukraine can establish. So, this is a long-term agenda.
It's disrupting Russia's propaganda that's bought at the moment on the Arab strait.
MACFARLANE: Very interesting. Nic Robertson there live for us from Ukraine. Thanks, Nick. And this weekend, Mr. Zelenskyy will travel to Japan to
attend the G7 Summit, which is now underway. There, he'll meet with leaders of the world's biggest democracies, and make his case for more support and
weapons, as his country gets ready for a counteroffensive against Moscow's forces.
G7 nations are already agreeing on new sanctions against Russia. Marc Stewart is at the summit for us tonight. And so, Marc, President Zelenskyy
making this unexpected trip, his first to Asia, obviously, hugely symbolic. And this coming in the wake of the announcement, of not new sanctions
exactly, but I think a stiffening of sanctions is what's been called for today.
MARC STEWART, CNN REPORTER: Indeed. The goal of this latest round of sanctions, Christina, was really to eliminate any loopholes where money
would be going to Russia, perhaps from unexpected sources. So, if we look at the list of sanctions that were unveiled today, 300 from the U.S., but
more importantly, in the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom, for example, is going to ban Russian imports of metals and diamonds.
Something very simple that can -- has been bringing a lot of financial support to the Russian economy. So, that's one way to quash the finances
behind the Russian money machine that's being used to fund this war. Australia, for example, is banning Russian equipment, construction
equipment, and other types of materials that are related to that.
So, the goal is to, again, eliminate these loopholes. We also heard about some strengthening or at least, keeping caps on oil prices, so, that
remains intact. It's also important to stress, Christina, that as we approach this weekend with the arrival of President Zelenskyy here in
Hiroshima, certainly, he wants to meet with these G7 leaders. But as one analyst put it to me, he already has their support.
Obviously, the economic sanctions, there's diplomatic support, and they are still trying to work out a military package. But also here this weekend is
an invited list of international leaders and diplomats from India, Indonesia, Brazil, South Korea and Vietnam. These are countries that
President Zelenskyy may not necessarily have contact with.
And so, as this analyst told me, it's very rare for him to have this kind of access. So, he will also be lobbying them for their support, militarily,
economically and diplomatically. That's the narrative that we are expecting to see unfold this weekend here in Hiroshima, where it is already Saturday
MACFARLANE: That it is 3:00 a.m. there. Marc Stewart live for us and live all weekend as well, thanks very much, Marc. Now, Volodymyr Zelenskyy
wasn't the only high-profile guest at the Arab League Summit. Syrian President Bashar al-Assad is accused of war crimes, bombing, shooting and
gassing his own people. And after clinging to power in the civil war, he's been welcomed back by Arab leaders. CNN's Jomana Karadsheh reports on the
lives shattered by the Assad government.
JOMANA KARADSHEH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Assad or we burn the country, vowed his supporters -- and the country burned.
It was a regime's existential battle when no holds were barred, hundreds of thousands of lives lost, maybe many more, and millions forced into a
miserable existence, far from home, victims of a civil war. Their pain was the world to see, atrocities so shocking, yet, the world did little. Twelve
years on, Assad still denies attacking civilians and claims he was fighting terrorism.
Now, the ruthless president who unleashed hell on his people with the help of his ally, Russia, is not only a free man, he's now welcomed in some
world capitals with red carpets and handshakes.
WAFA MOSTAFA, SYRIAN ACTIVIST WHOSE FATHER IS MISSING IN SYRIA: Defeat is something that, you know, one -- at some point, must accept. But this is
beyond any conversation about defeat or when. This is about, you know -- this is about the man who is responsible for the pain and for the suffering
that I've been going through in the past ten years.
KARADSHEH: Wafa Mostafa counts the days since she last saw her father, more than 3,600 days of searching, waiting, campaigning. Ali Mostafa vanished
into the black hole of the regime's prison system, one of more than 130,000 forcibly disappeared by the regime.
MOSTAFA: In living years of your life, wondering every night before you go to sleep, if your own father is still alive or not, it's something that,
you know, hard to explain and hard to describe. Instead of normalizing Assad now after 12 years, they should have, you know, held him accountable
for the war crimes he has committed, for the war crimes that he is most importantly, for the war crimes he is still committing.
KARADSHEH: Bringing Bashar al-Assad back into the regional fold, Arab leaders argue, is for stability in the Middle East, is for an end to a
refugee burden its neighbors say they no longer can bear. Those who survived this brutal battle for survival now face a new Middle East, a new
reality where they fear they may be forced back to the horrors of Assad's regime.
NABIL AL OTHMAN, SYRIAN ACTIVIST & REFUGEE IN TURKEY (through translator): It's a monstrous regime in every sense of the word. We heard from many
detainees what we went through. I'm from Idlib, where he used chemical weapons and banned weaponry against us.
KARADSHEH: Twenty seven-year-old Nabil al Othman is a former rebel, now an activist like millions of other Syrians, he found safety in Turkey. But
with anti-immigrant sentiment on the rise, and the fate of Syrian refugees now at the heart of the country's political debate, Syrians feel their safe
space is shrinking.
OTHMAN: Even if the whole world normalizes this regime, Syrians will never trust it. For me, going back to this monstrous criminal is impossible. If I
return, I'll be sent straight to jail, torture and to my death. If they want to forcibly return me, I will try to get to Europe.
KARADSHEH: For more than a decade, they begged the world to end their nightmare. But they were left to face it all alone, and now face a world
where their oppressor got away with it.
MOSTAFA: I think that instead of welcoming Assad to Riyadh, I think he should be welcomed to the ICC. There is still this hope that, you know, my
father will be free. I might be able to save him one day. But, you know, normalization feels like the end of everything. It feels like the end of
this hope. It feels like the end of, you know, what started in 2011, and it feels like the end of my life.
KARADSHEH: Jomana Karadsheh, CNN, Istanbul.
MACFARLANE: Still to come on CNN, more calls for change in Serbia, following two mass shootings there. A live report on the latest anti-
government protests. And in the midst of one of the most dense jungles on earth, search and rescue workers think they may have found a clue that
could lead them to four missing children.
MACFARLANE: We're back in Serbia where thousands are protesting once again, against the government in the wake of two mass shootings. Now, these are
live pictures you can see on your screen here, coming to us from Belgrade, the capital city. Thousands have clearly turned out. Opposition-led
protesters are demanding the resignation of several government ministers and licenses revoked from TV stations, they blame the Serbia's culture of
The mass shootings earlier this month left 18 people dead. Well, CNN's Scott McLean joins us now to discuss this. And Scott, in the wake of these
shootings, we know that the government already moved to crack down on gun ownership, to strengthen gun laws. So, why are we seeing this number of
people still showing anger on the streets, what more do they want?
SCOTT MCLEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, clearly, this is not just about guns. Some of the things that you mentioned, they're looking for resignations,
they're looking for clampdowns on media, some media that they -- or some television programs that they say promote violence, as well.
This is really morphed into something much different than we saw in the initial aftermath, when we saw vigils for these young people and children,
in some cases, who were killed in these two mass shootings which took place in just less than 48-hour period of time and really shocked the country.
And so people were looking for someone or something to blame. And so, there were discussions about the influence of media, social media, and of course,
about guns. The guns problem on its own is extremely tricky to solve. You're talking about a country which has one of the highest rates of gun
ownership in the world.
You're talking about 2.7 million guns in Serbia, less than half of them are owned legally. A whole tranche of guns that are illegally-owned, left over
from conflicts in the 1990s, and now, you have people occupying two of the main bridges in Belgrade, essentially connecting the old and the new parts
of the city. And you know, one speaker who spoke in front of the parliament earlier during this protest said that, look, they want to shut down the
They want to sort of bring things to a stand, so -- because they think that Serbia needs to stop, in order for them to get the demands that they
MACFARLANE: And to that point a bit, having the highest -- one of the highest gun rates in the world, we know that after these shootings, there
was an amnesty call for these gun program -- for guns to be returned -- gun programs, essentially. How has that gone in the weeks since?
MCLEAN: It is a heck of an uphill battle. I mentioned the numbers to you already, and the numbers of guns turned in may seem like a lot, 15,000. But
truly, this is a drop in the bucket, considering we're talking about, you know, more than a million guns, some estimates have are still floating
around there. People even turned in hand grenades, you know, explosive devices, 2,500 of those.
I mean, the amount of weaponry in this country is really astounding. This amnesty period is just for a one month period. After that, the government
says that there is going to be much harsher penalties for people who still have these kinds of weapons.
Some people have them to hunt, some people have them for sport, for ski shooting, that kind of a thing. But there's also plenty of skeptics who say
that this is going to be a very tough problem to crack down. And considering Serbia also has one of the highest rates, the highest -- one of
the most organized -- biggest problems with organized crime in the world as well. And so, people are not always going to give these guns up --
MACFARLANE: Yes --
MCLEAN: Very willingly.
MACFARLANE: And why people would need hand grenades? I guess it's a separate issue. All right, Scott --
MCLEAN: Yes --
MACFARLANE: Thank you for breaking that down.
MCLEAN: You bet.
MACFARLANE: All right, still to come tonight, artificial intelligence can manipulate public opinion, impersonate politics, and share potentially
dangerous misinformation. We'll look at what's being done to regulate the growing industry, next. Plus, CNN has exclusive reporting on internal FAA
documents, shedding new light on last Summer's air travel fiasco in the U.S. What they show about the agency's role in the flight disruptions.
MACFARLANE: At the G7, there's at least one topic world leaders can agree on -- artificial intelligence needs regulating. U.K. Prime Minister Rishi
Sunak is leading the charge. He says A.I. could benefit society, but it's important to put, quote, "guardrails in place". And the tech world is
actually begging to be regulated on this issue.
Testifying before Congress Tuesday in Washington, tech experts laid bare some of the risks and emphasized why it's important to regulate now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARY MARCUS, PROFESSOR EMERITUS, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: We acted too slowly with social media. Many unfortunate decisions got locked in with lasting
consequence. The choices we make now will have lasting effects for decades, maybe even centuries.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACFARLANE: Well, Professor Gary Marcus, you saw there, self-described critic of A.I. Hype. Joining me now to discuss this further, the risks of
A.I., Gary, thank you so much for your time. I know that four days ago, you were there testifying to the Senate Judiciary Committee for over three
hours alongside OpenAI Sam Altman.
And there seem to be, Gary, a really urgent consensus that regulation needed to happen, but that perhaps the U.S. government are not best
equipped, or the fastest moving entity here to do this. So first question to you, where are we on this regulation being formulated right now, if it
is not with the government?
GARY MARCUS, PROFESSOR EMERITUS, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: I mean, I think there's two things to say there. One is I think the U.S. government
definitely should play a role in it. The second is, we may also want to build some international organization. The sense of the room is that the
U.S. government would try. There was a lot of people in favor of building some kind of national agency, and when people were in favor of specific
proposals, like, for example, requiring licensing on certain types of AI models, there wasn't detail yet. But there was, I think, consensus around
And I think there was warmth towards the idea that I've been pushing about having a global AI agency that might try to align all the different
countries and have common plans, which, I think, would be useful both for the companies. They don't want to have to build different models for every
country. It's very expensive, and costly in terms of climate, and also good for the world if we can have the world's best thinkers and independent
scientists all getting together with the corporations and the governments to make the best plan possible.
MACFARLANE: Well, that's an important point. And let's just break these two things down individually. I mean, in terms of a regulatory body, how
important is it that that agency isn't simply made up of the big tech industry working in their own interests, and which other individuals would
need to play a role and be part of that?
MARCUS: So if only the companies are involved, or even only the companies and the governments, then you certainly have a risk of the kind of thing we
call green marketing regulatory capture, in which the big players make rules that the small players are kept out and nothing is really served. And
that's what we don't want. That's why I think we really need independent scientists to be there, to be a voice and saying, well, then that's not
really going to be strong enough. So, for example, we need, I think, much more transparency about what's in the models, because the models can
influence people's beliefs, in the way that social media can but a subtle way.
And so we need scientists to say, hey, we need more transparency about what you're doing and we need to build new tools to fight the kinds of
misinformation that people will generate with your tools. And we need more insight into how they actually work. So the scientists, I think, have to
work together with the government to get the right information and build tools that help us do this.
MACFARLANE: Have you actually put yourself forward to be part of the regulatory body, Gary?
MARCUS: I was actually asked that yesterday. There is no regulatory body to put myself forward. But I'm willing to help. I spent all week in
Washington, talking to people and tried to make suggestions. So at least, you know, behind the scenes, I'll make suggestions. And, you know, I would
like to see this because I think it's one of the most important things in the world right now, is to figure out how we can make AI benefit us and not
harm most. And as a Senator Hawley said, we could either see AI as being like the printing press, which has been pretty much a benefit to society,
or like the atomic bomb, which has been a very, very mixed blessing and we want to have the good outcome here.
MACFARLANE: So to your point of a global government structure and the importance of that government, I think this was something that was raised
at the G7 we heard today, Rishi Sunak, other leaders talking about the need for that, but how would that actually work? Who would fund such a entity?
MARCUS: I mean, in the end, I think it needs to be governments. I think the companies themselves should put some money forward. If they say they want
regulation and want this to be organized and rational then they should put up some of the money. And I think, you know, philanthropists may as well. I
think we -- ultimately, the most important thing is we want this body to be neutral, and, you know, perhaps nonprofit that requires that it be well-
funded and not beholden to any particular interest.
MACFARLANE: You mentioned that we are lacking some of the very basic fundamental tools of AI that relates a lot of it to research and one of the
most important ones is tracking misinformation. I mean, I wonder as we sit here, what, a year and a bit out from the U.S. election, what threats
specifically that will pose to the U.S. elections and whether we can actually get guardrails in place in time for that.
MARCUS: I honestly don't know if we can get them in place in time. It's going to be an uphill struggle to do that. And I'm very concerned about the
2024 election. That was part of what first made me think about this side of the issue is -- for the last year, really. We are going to need to think
about the policies we have and need to think about new tools. The AI that's very popular right now is very good at learning about the
statistics, about how different words relate to each other. And so it's kind of like autocomplete on steroids and pastiches different things
together, but doesn't really understand truth. And so we really need new tools, which we need to develop quickly, that are more grounded and
understanding how to reason about a set of known facts and see whether something is consistent with those facts. And that's a heavy lift.
I don't know what we can get (INAUDIBLE) for, but we need to start driving.
MACFARLANE: We absolutely do. Truth is a pretty important part of any election process. Gary, I'm glad you are one of those in the driving seat,
though. We appreciate you giving us your thoughts on this all the way from Washington today. Thank you.
MARCUS: Thank you.
MACFARLANE: All right. Staying in the world of tech, in two U.S. cases, the Supreme Court ruled online platforms are not liable for terror-related
content posted by users. In the first case, the Supreme Court ruled that Twitter will not have to face accusations that aided and abetted terrorism
when it hosted tweets by the terror group ISIS.
The court also dismissed a similar case against Google and its subsidiary, YouTube. The outcome is a relief not only for Google, but for many websites
and social media companies urging the Supreme Court not to restrict their protections.
CNN has obtained previously unreported internal Federal Aviation Administration records on last summer's air travel chaos in the U.S. when
thousands of flights were delayed, or canceled, leaving passengers stranded. They show that while the Biden administration publicly hammered
airlines for the problems, behind the scenes, the FAA officials were well aware that their own agency also bore responsibility.
Well, CNN aviation correspondent Pete Muntean joins us now from Washington with the details. And Pete, I imagine airlines are feeling somewhat
vindicated today because, you know, that -- they were charged with, you know, the blame for all of this in the first instance. So how much are the
FAA -- how much do the FAA have to answer for here?
PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, the blame game is pretty interesting here, Christina, because the FAA is not totally
vindicated. The airlines are not totally vindicated here. But we do have this tranche of new documents that really lays out the blame game in much
more detail than we have ever understood before. And CNN uncovered in hundreds of pages of documents obtained from the federal government. These
are messages and emails internally at the Federal Aviation Administration, that this problem was really owned by the FAA, but not in public.
In fact, in public, the FAA, and the Biden administration was really pointing fingers at the airlines. Think back to last summer. We're talking
55,000 flight cancellations between Memorial Day and Labor Day, a half million flights delayed. And as that was taking place, repeatedly, the
Biden administration said, this is on airlines. They emptied out the cabinet during the pandemic. And now, they're racing to keep up with the
amount of travelers coming back.
But what we were able to uncover in these documents is that at one key air traffic control facility run by the Federal Aviation Administration in
Florida, it is known as Jacksonville Center, there were 200 shifts that were short-staffed over a seven-week period. And that led to 4,600 flights
being delayed in the state of Florida that accounted for one in every ten delays during that seven-week period. So, this is completely new,
previously unreported information that really puts into the limelight the FAA's onus here, and it's especially important now, because Memorial Day,
the official -- unofficial rather start of the summer travel season, is right around the corner, we're talking only a week out, and so many people
are planning to travel.
In fact, AAA says the numbers on Memorial Day weekend, so the weekend after next, could be 11 percent higher than what they were back in 2019, before
the pandemic when air travel was really hitting huge records. So this is really, really critical right now. And the FAA is also warning that these
controller shortages is trying to own up to them in a way leading up to this summer, that could cause delays at some airports like in New York, to
increase by 45 percent.
So we're learning a lot here from the past. And it's really important to put the spotlight on this because the FAA says there will still be problems
again this summer. So, we're going to roll out this reporting tonight on Anderson Cooper 360 8:00 p.m. Eastern Time and really lay this out for
folks so they understand just how bad the problem was, and also lay out for folks how the FAA is addressing this. So this potentially does not happen
in the future. Although we know there is a potential for problems on the horizon again this summer, Christina.
MACFARLANE: Important reporting, Pete, especially as you say, at this juncture with the busy summer we have ahead. Appreciate it. Thank you.
MACFARLANE: All right. Still to come tonight, it looks like a puddle in the mud, but the Colombian army thinks it may be a major clue to help them find
four children missing in the Amazon jungle.
MACFARLANE: U.S. immigration authorities say they're seeing a significant drop in migrant encounters on American Southern border after the end of
Title 42. The policy allowed the U.S. to quickly deport people without an asylum hearing using the pandemic as justification. Since it expired last
Friday, federal immigration authorities say migrant encounters fell by around 70 percent over a 48-hour period. Authorities also ramping up
deportation efforts with Homeland Security, deporting more than 11,000 migrants since Title 42 expired.
Now the Colombian army thinks it has found what could be a significant clue in its search for four children missing after a plane crash in the Amazon
jungle. Search and rescue officials say this appears to be a small footprint and they think it could be from one of the children. The children
age thirteen, nine, four, and eleven months have been missing now for more than two weeks. Officials confirmed the bodies of three adults have been
pulled from the plane wreckage.
Well, Stefano Pozzebon has been tracking this story for us from the Colombian capital city of Bogota. Stefano, 18 days now and still no
confirmation of the children. I mean, how much belief is there there, at this point, that the children are still alive?
STEFANO POZZEBON, JOURNALIST: Yes. No confirmation which means that hope are still -- hopes are still alive, Christina, of course until we would
hear a definitive break through, well, everybody here in Colombia is really, really hoping that those kids will be found safe and alive
regardless of the odds.
And just hours ago, the Colombian military said that they have supported the ongoing mission with 50 extra commandos to help track down the kids,
but it's really frantic hours here in Colombia with the search and rescue operation going on in the jungle and people here in Gouvia -- here in
Bogota, praying and wishing for the best.
POZZEBON (voice-over): Desperate search continues, but still no breakthrough. Colombian authorities are scouring the Amazon for four
children believed to have survived the plane crash on May 1st, looking for any signs of life after nearly three weeks. Earlier reports that the
children had been found were later dialed back.
The grandfather of the kids ages thirteen, nine, four and 11 months, says he's holding out hope.
FIDENCIO VALENCIA, GRANDFATHER OF THE MISSING CHILDREN (through translator): They already know the jungle. And after that accident, maybe
they are hiding. They hide. Maybe they don't realize that they are looking for them. They're children, but we hope that they are alive and have access
to water because water is life.
POZZEBON (voice-over): The plane had taken off from the remote area of Araracuara, bound for San Jose del Guaviare. Details of the crash remain
fuzzy, but the same plane crashed in the same region of the jungle less than two years ago according to the Colombian Civil Aviation Authority.
Below the dense forest canopy, rescue efforts carry on around the clock. The Colombian armed forces using dogs to help search for the children
following a trail of scattered debris, including hair scrunches and a baby bottle they believe belongs to the youngest. And from above, Colombia's Air
Force using loudspeakers to play messages from the kids' grandmother in their native language.
In Bogota, the indigenous community is mourning those who died in the crash after it was announced on Thursday that the bodies of three adults,
including the pilot, and the mother of the four children, had been recovered and demanding answers for what had gone wrong. While the nation
holds its breath, praying for the lives of the four young children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lesly.
POZZEBON (on camera): And Christina, the Lesly name that you hear blasted out on the loudspeaker is the name of the oldest of those children, the 13-
year-old Lesly Mucutiu. Of course, the hope is that they will be find -- will be found alive. And as you can see from the report literally, the
whole nation is holding its breath and hoping for a positive outcome tonight, Christina.
MACFARLANE: Yes. Well, let's hope that Lesly and siblings are just hiding in the jungle, as their grandfather suggest they might be. Stefano
Pozzebon, thank you very much.
Investigators in Australia want to know why a police officer felt so threatened by a 95-year-old woman that he had to tase her. It happened
Wednesday inside a nursing home south of Canberra. Police were responding to a call about a resident with a knife. When great grandmother, Claire
Nolan, didn't follow police instructions to drop the knife, an officer discharged his taser. Nolan has dementia and she is now in the hospital in
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDREW THALER, BUSINESSMAN & COMMUNITY ADVOCATE: Claire is 95 years old. She's about five foot two, and weighs all 43 kilos. She can't walk on her
own without walking assistance. As they said, she had a walking frame or a wheelie walker. The use of a taser when a kind word was all she needed. If
she was confused, which is what happens with people who have dementia, she needed kind words and assistance and help. She didn't need the force of the
law as it were.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACFARLANE: Extraordinary. All right. Still to come tonight. The Big Apple has a big problem. It's sinking. We'll look at the mission to save
MACFARLANE: Welcome back. The CEO and founder of luxury brand LVMH, Bernard Arnault, remains a driving force behind the nearly $500 billion company.
But many wonder which of his five children will take the reins one day. CNN's Melissa Bell takes a look at the family dynamic and why it bears an
uncanny resemblance to a certain hit TV show.
NICHOLAS BRAUN AS GREG HIRSCH, ACTOR: He's on the floor, Tom.
BRIAN COX AS LOGAN ROY, ACTOR: Explain to me what he's doing.
BRAUN: He's moseying. Terrifyingly mosey. It's like if Santa Claus was a hitman.
MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): A magnate and patreon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I love you. But you are not serious people.
BELL (voiceover): Preparing his succession as carefully as he built his empire, not Logan Roy, but the real world's richest man, 74-year-old
Bernard Arnault, worth more than $230 billion, having built the world's biggest luxury goods company, all the while very personally raising,
educating, and evaluating his five potential successors.
BERNARD ARNAULT, CHAIRMAN & CEO, LOUIS VUITTON MOET HENNESSY: I think my group is controlled by my family. So instead of looking every day at the
stock market, I look for the next 10 years.
BELL (voiceover): All five Arnault children work for their father. 48-year- old Delphine, the Chair of Christian Dior, her brother 45-year-old Antoine who is CEO of the holding company of Christian Dior, and the three children
from Arnault's second marriage, 31-year-old Alexandre, who's an executive vice president of Tiffany's, 28-year-old Frederic who runs Tag Heuer, and
the youngest, 24-year-old Jean, the Director of Development and Marketing at Louis Vuitton's watched division.
RAPHAELE BACQUE, AUTHOR, "SUCCESSIONS: MONEY, BLOOD, AND TEARS" (through translator): He is at once and attentive father, a good father, but also a
merciless boss, so the children have to work hard. He has a fairly clear idea of their qualities and their weaknesses. And when the moment comes,
we'll be able to choose.
BELL (voiceover): The $500 billion LVMH dominates the world of fashion with some of its biggest names like Christian Dior, and Louis Vuitton. It was
built through ruthless acquisition and like Waystar is diverse, with vineyards, hotels, restaurants, and newspapers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have you beat.
BELL (voiceover),: But it is in the treatment of their children that the fictional and real characters diverge. Far from fostering discord, Arnault
has ensured harmony, but with a cold eye on business nonetheless.
DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
BELL (voiceover): The stakes are huge, the value of the company but also the power that it brings. Like Logan Roy, Bernard Arnault has cultivated
his relationships with the powerful, acquiring a vast media empire and making LVMH a symbol in France. Its headquarters stormed by protesters only
last month. But while Arnault has sought to protect his children, he's also made it clear what he expects of them.
ANTOINE ARNAULT, CEO, CHRISTIAN DIOR SE: Of course, we understand the level of responsibility that is ours. The way we see things is that my father is
super healthy and going to work 10, 15, 20, 25 years. His five children are now working together in different parts of the group, but we're very close.
BELL: And Empire carefully built and ultimately soon up for grabs. But so far, without the family drama. Melissa Bell, CNN, Paris.
MACFARLANE: Now if you can make it there, you can make it anywhere. But it seems New York has a problem of its own making sadly. New research suggests
the city is sinking partly due to the mammoth weight of its famous skyscrapers. That could become a big problem when it comes to the risk of
flooding as the world's glaciers continue to melt.
And sad news from the world of music today, Andy Rourke, bassist for the English rock band The Smiths has died after a battle with pancreatic cancer
rock joined the Smiths in 1982 and played alongside the band until their split in 1987. English rock band The Smiths has died after a battle with
Rourke joined The Smiths in 1982 and played alongside the band until their split in 1987. The Smiths guitarist, Johnny Marr, tweeted that Andy would
be remembered as a gifted musician and a kind and beautiful soul.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THE SMITHS, BAND: You shut your mouth, how can you say I go about things the wrong way? I am human and I need to be loved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACFARLANE: Such a great track. Andy Rourke was 59 years old.
And it was an emotional return to public life for one of the world's most targeted writers as Salman Rushdie made a surprise appearance at the PEN
America Gala. Greeted with a standing ovation, the outspoken free speech defender received an honorary award for his courage nine months after that
knife attack that almost took his life. During his speech, he honored those who rushed to his aid on that fateful day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SALMAN RUSHDIE, AWARD WINNING NOVELIST: If it had not been for these people, I most certainly would not be standing here today. The courage that
day was all theirs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACFARLANE: Good to see him back and standing.
And thank you so much for watching tonight. Stay with CNN. We've got QUEST MEANS BUSINESS coming up after the break.