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Isa Soares Tonight
Russia Bombards Zelenskyy's Hometown; Supporters Of The Military Junta Accuse France Of Planning Strikes To Free Niger's President; A New Army Of Drones, Watchtowers And A.I. Scour The U.K. Coastline For Small Boats; Russia Tries To Frame Kyiv's Offensive As A Failure; Mar-a-Lago Worker Appears In Miami Court; U.K. Using High Tech Surveillance To Track Migrant Boats. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired July 31, 2023 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ELENI GIOKOS, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: A very warm welcome to the show, everyone, I'm Eleni Giokos, I'm in for Isa Soares. Tonight, this is what
the hometown of Ukraine's president looks like just one day after he said the war is returning to Russia. More on Russia's vicious retaliation. Also
ahead, political flags in Niger as supporters of the military Junta accuse France of planning strikes to free the president.
More details and how France has responded. And a new army of drones, watchtowers and A.I. scouring the U.K. coastline for small boats. But it
hasn't stopped people from dying, our special investigation ahead this hour.
A new wave of Russian attacks has hit the hometown of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Here's video capturing the moment missiles slammed
into Kryvyi Rih.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GIOKOS: Well, Ukrainian officials say rescue efforts were still underway this evening. The missiles killed at least six people and injured more than
70 others. The attack comes after drone strikes were reported against Moscow over the weekend. Now, President Zelenskyy in his address said the
war was returning to Russia. He called this, inevitable, natural and absolutely fair.
Russia's defense minister says his country is intensifying its attacks in response to drone strikes. Meanwhile, we're tracking a chilling threat by
Russia's former President, Dmitry Medvedev says his country may be forced to use nuclear weapons if Ukraine's counteroffensive succeeds. This isn't
the first time he's threatened to use nukes, but it's notable that a top Russian official is saying publicly, Kyiv's counteroffensive could work.
This comes as Ukraine says Saudi Arabia is hosting upcoming peace talks, the Kremlin says it will monitor the negotiations. For the latest, I'm now
joined by CNN's Nic Robertson from London. Nic, great to have you on. Zelenskyy's hometown of Kryvyi Rih hit, we've seen these images, and one of
the big unknowns at the start of the war was when the war would eventually go to Russia.
Zelenskyy now saying it was inevitable and he says it's fair. How does this change the dynamics of this war?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: It changes it for Russians, perhaps, more than Ukrainians, because Russians are being told
that they are winning the special military operation, as they call it. That everything is going well and that Russia will achieve its goals, and this
sort of no impact of the war.
For Russians, and the majority of the cities in Russia in particular, in Moscow, whereas for Ukrainians, they never know when the air raid sirens
are going to go off. Kryvyi Rih was an example of it, Dnipro, another major city was targeted just a couple of days ago as well. So there are altered
realities for the citizens of both countries. Different realities.
But what Ukraine is now doing, now it's clearly developed a type of drone that it can produce in some numbers, and that can go all the way from
inside of Ukraine, all the way to Moscow, they now have another tool at their disposal, to interrupt Russia's narrative to its own people, and it's
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Russia's war in Ukraine is increasingly blowing up in Moscow. This Ukrainian drone attack Sunday night bringing Russia's war
hundreds of miles away into the heart of its own capital, shocking citizens.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): My friends and I rented an apartment to come here and unwind. And at some point, we heard an explosion
and it was like a wave. Everyone jumped.
ROBERTSON: Attacks like this in Moscow becoming increasingly common. Last week, another Ukrainian drone hit a Ministry of Defense building. A
psychological blow for a population repeatedly told by Putin's state media, they are winning a so-called special military operation.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): I was asleep and woken up by an explosion, everything started to shake and the whole building had come
ROBERTSON: This weekend, Putin was keeping up the pretense everything is OK, celebrating Navy Day. But behind the scenes, his officials appear
rattled by Ukraine's refusal to be beaten.
(on camera): Former President Dmitry Medvedev says if Ukraine's counteroffensive is successful, Russia will use its nuclear weapons.
Meanwhile, the Kremlin is dismissing the drone strikes, and Moscow, as an act of desperation, the defense minister calling them terrorist attacks.
Reality, they've got Moscow's attention.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT, UKRAINE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Ukraine's president is hinting more of these strikes to come.
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Ukraine is getting stronger, gradually, the war is returning to the territory of Russia, to its symbolic centers and
military bases. This is inevitable, natural, and absolutely fair process.
ROBERTSON: Zelenskyy is stating what is becoming increasingly apparent, Ukraine is ramping up drone strikes inside Russia. In recent weeks, targets
just over the border in areas vital to Russia's war effort have increased too.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
ROBERTSON: The impact even breaking through on Russia's state media. What is clear, Ukraine's fight on Russian soil is having effect.
ROBERTSON: But the big question, I suppose is going to be this. Is the ultimate effect that it can have to weaken the Russian population's resolve
to continue to fight the war. Strikes that are not causing a huge amount of damage, and not causing many civilian casualties. I think the reality is
for the Russian government, for Putin, they can continue to shrug those off for a long time to come and keep up their state narrative that they're
still doing well.
But it will, perhaps, overtime, and if Ukraine can increase the level of these strikes and actually have them hit bigger targets in Moscow, let's
say or targets that are more important to the Russians, then maybe, that will eat into the Russian psyche, and the political elites thinking a
little bit. But I think it's way too early to draw a conclusion like that.
GIOKOS: Absolutely, I mean, really fascinating and it's -- this is the reality, it's just how Russians within Russia domestically are going to be
viewing this attack. Nic Robertson, great to have you with us, thank you so much. Well, Niger is plunging even deeper into a political crisis, and
anger is growing on the streets after last week's military coup.
Diplomacy efforts are underway with Chad's president traveling to meet with ousted President Mohamed Bazoum and military coup leaders. But Junta
accuses France of planning strikes to free Bazoum and arrest six members of his party, there seems to be some way to go before calm is restored. CNN's
Larry Madowo is following these developments for us.
For the most part, from what we've seen, there's definitely been a political escalation. We've seen regional response, international reaction,
and a lot of finger-pointing. Give us a sense of what we're seeing on the ground, and how it's potentially impacting a lot of the negotiations that
are happening behind closed doors.
LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Eleni, there are two things here that are often getting inflated here. One is that, there is definitely anti-French
sentiment in Niger and across the Sahel region, across francophone Africa. However, that sentiment against the French is not necessarily in support of
the military or necessarily in support of General Abdourahamane Tiani; the head of the Presidential Guard that declared himself president.
That's why we see for instance, the U.S. has not officially declared this a coup. That will be a technical definition that would require it to stop aid
in military assistance to Niger. One U.S. State Department official telling CNN that they consider this a domestic dispute between the Presidential
Guard and President Mohamed Bazoum.
And there's no support for the whole military. There are members of the military who still think that President Bazoum should return to power. They
just haven't figured out how to free him because the Presidential Guard has surrounded the presidential palace. Now, who is the Presidential Guard in
Niger? This is a specialized unit of the military. There are about 2,000 soldiers, and they are commanded by General Abdourahamane Tiani who
believed that he was about to be fired because he had been in this post since 2011, was appointed by the former President Issoufou.
So, that is the context and the subtext for what you see. The French believe that the attacks against the French Embassy were orchestrated, they
were planned, because these people they say have new French -- new Russian flags. They appear to have been coordinated to show up at the French
Embassy, that's what you see here.
MADOWO (voice-over): Angry Nigeriens smashing windows of the French Embassy in the capital, Niamey. Thousands of people outraged at the country's
former colonial power a day after it suspended aid and financial support for Niger with immediate effect. "Down with France", some said, condemning
French support for ousted President Mohamed Bazoum.
Unable to get into the heavily-protected compound, a window set on fire, and a French flag trashed, a common sight since Wednesday's military coup.
Security forces eventually deployed tear gas to disperse the protesters. France warned it would retaliate immediately and in a strict matter, in
case of any attacks against its embassy, nationals, army or diplomats.
The Elysee Palace saying on Sunday, adding that President Emmanuel Macron will not tolerate any attacks against France and its interests. The
military Junta that ousted the West African country's democratically- elected president came to show France and the world that it has the backing of the public.
MAMAN SANI, PROTESTER (through translator): We also came out to tell this little Macron from France that Niger belongs to us. It's up to us to do
what we want with Niger. What we want, we deal with who we want and how we want. We are forming support for the army.
MADOWO: A sea of people outside Niger's parliament denouncing France and some raising Russian flags. Long live Putin and long live Russia, the
protesters say, demanding that foreign armies leave the country. France has about 1,500 troops in Niger, a key ally in the fight against terrorism in
the Sahel. The U.S. has about 1,000 troops in the country involved in counterterrorism operations.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): As citizens of Niger, we are against French bases, American bases, Canadian bases, Italian bases, all
the bases that are in Niger, we don't need them.
MADOWO: The head of the Presidential Guard, General Abdourahamane Tiani deposed his boss, and declared himself Niger's new leader on Friday, saying
he would suspend the constitution and rule with the so-called National Council for the Safeguard of the Homeland.
ZEINABOU BOUKARI, PROTESTER (through translator): They're really brave and I support them 100 percent. We've really suffered a lot. We've suffered a
lot because they are our children. A lot of blood has been shed in Niger, we want peace, we want peace.
MADOWO: In neighboring Nigeria, an emergency summit of the Economic Community of West African States, ECOWAS, regional leaders announcing
sanctions, including closing borders, a travel ban, and no-fly zone, freezing assets and a deadline. ECOWAS has given the Niger Junta one week
to reinstate President Bazoum or threaten to take all measures to restore his government.
OMAR ALIEU TOURAY, PRESIDENT, ECOWAS COMMISSION: Such measures may include the use of force. For this effect, the chiefs of defense staff of ECOWAS
are to meet immediately.
MADOWO: But many protesters on the street don't want any ECOWAS military intervention or involvement. And the military Junta says it's ready.
AMADOU ABDRAMANE, MILITARY JUNTA CNSP, NIGER (through translator): We once again remind ECOWAS and those who wish to adventure in this of our firm
determination to defend our country.
MADOWO: Fighting words from the coup leaders in Niger, and fighting words from ECOWAS. So, it's all hinting on the mediation efforts from the
transition of President of Chad, Idriss Deby who has met with General Tiani and has met with the President Mohamed Bazoum. If that does not work out,
if we cannot somehow find a peaceful solution to this conflict as he said, after their in-depth discussions, then ECOWAS has to make good on their
threats to use force to force the military out and reinstate President Bazoum. And that could have major consequences in the region, Eleni.
GIOKOS: Yes, regional impact, absolutely. Larry Madowo, thank you very much for that, Well, let's take a closer look now at the significance of this
coup on the African continent. I want to bring in Mvemba Phezo Dizolele; the director of the Africa Program at the Center for Strategic and
International Studies, great to have you with us.
I mean, you were listening in to some of Larry's reporting there, we've been seeing the attack on the French Embassy, the burning of French flags,
we've seen some Russian flags on the ground as well. The coup leaders have been very clear that do not want any international interference, and
regionally, this brings a lot of questions. How are you reading into the latest that we've seen on the ground and the messaging, regionally and
MVEMBA PHEZO DIZOLELE, DIRECTOR OF THE AFRICA PROGRAM, CSIS: Thank you, Eleni, for having me. I think the sooner the crisis is resolved, the
better. The more this lags on, the more violence will see -- violence we'll see in the streets. The messaging has been terrible. I think the stance of
ECOWAS will only make matters worse.
I think the United States approach so far has been wise in not making things get even worse than they are. I think the coup group that the
military council is very committed to whatever they're doing, I don't think they will step down as easily under the threat of anyone. I think we've
seen this movie before, we saw this in Mali when president -- the late President Ibrahim Boubacar Keita was taken by the military.
There was a lot of pressure on the military, eventually, the military released him. So, I think there are other avenues here that should be
pursued, then the saber-rattling that we're getting out of ECOWAS. It didn't work in Mali, didn't work in Burkina Faso --
GIOKOS: We've just -- I mean, this is --
DIZOLELE: And didn't work in Guinea.
GIOKOS: This is what I want to ask you about ECOWAS. So ECOWAS, I mean, we've heard the use of force, the potential of that. Are we talking about
potential military interventions? To be honest, this would be quite a big departure from what we normally see on the continent. Invention isn't
something we're really used to, usually there's more of a diplomatic approach. How are you reading into what the messaging has been from ECOWAS
DIZOLELE: I think the messaging from ECOWAS would be counterproductive. Like I was saying, ECOWAS has dealt with Mali just in the recent past with
Burkina Faso, with Guinea, all the sanction they try to put in place did not make anyone step down from the military. So, I think there are other
ways to engage. And I said, in Mali, in the early days of the coup with now Colonel Goita, President Goita, the president of Mali was taken by the
military as well.
There were enough pressures coming from different quarters, so eventually, they released the president. I think time is key here, and rushing to
threaten people force, I'm not sure that's going to help. Question is, to what end?
GIOKOS: So you mentioned something really interesting -- yes, exactly, to what end? You mentioned something really interesting that you say that the
U.S. has been really smart about this, they're not declaring this -- defining this a coup as yet. The U.S. and France both have basis there. I
mean, the question now becomes, you know, are the militants going to win out of this?
This is a resource rich country, Russia could potentially be coming in to exert its influence. So what are the probabilities that you're looking at?
DIZOLELE: Probability is that we know as of today, I don't think the military will step down. Once you have engaged in that road of the coup,
you have weighed all the consequences. Now that they're there, where are they going to go? They cannot step down, they will then face the
retribution of the government that will come after them. So, I don't see them going anywhere any time soon.
However, I do believe with that robust engagements, they will eventually, there's opportunity for them to step down. We saw this in Mali 1991, the
military staged a coup, they were under tremendous pressure, after a year, they stepped down, organized elections, and Mali was a democracy for a good
old -- a good part of two decades. That it started with a coup. The other point I think, Eleni, that we are missing here, we talk a lot about France
engagement, U.S. commitment and all that stuff.
A lot of that commitment is on the kinetic counterterrorism side. In other words, that's the militarized part of phone engagement. What we don't see
in the Sahel is heavy investment on the democracy side. So, we see when Ukraine wants democracy, when Poland wants democracy or the Czech Republic,
the West puts a lot of money to support that democracy. And I'm talking billions.
We've not seen any engagement to that scale anywhere in Africa. I think the West needs to prepared to do that --
GIOKOS: That is -- that is vital. Yes, it's a really good point, Mvemba, great to have you on, we appreciate you being on the story with us.
DIZOLELE: Thank you very much, Eleni --
GIOKOS: Mvemba Phezo Dizolele; director of the Africa Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Much appreciated. Now, ISIS claims
it was behind a deadly terror attack in Pakistan. More than 50 people were killed, 120 were injured when a suicide bomber set off an explosive vest at
a political rally Sunday.
A dozen of those killed were children under the age of 12. CNN producer Sophia Saifi is now in Islamabad to give us the details. Look ISIS claiming
responsibility and they say they justify this act because they say they're fighting against democracy. Take us through their reasoning, Sophia, if
there is any.
SOPHIA SAIFI, CNN PRODUCER: So, Eleni, the Islamic state has been very active over the past couple of years, in that part of Pakistan. Bajaur
Agency -- it used to be called Bajaur Agency, and now it's called Bajaur District, which is part of Pakistan's northwestern Khyber Pakhtunkhwa
province which borders Afghanistan.
And that region is known for heightened activity of the Islamic state. Now, the Islamic State has been responsible for many decade attacks in the past,
in previous elections cycles as well. Now, when it comes to the JUYF, this was a worker's convention, a political party which does have an Islamic
party, it has right-wing tendencies, and it does have, you know, sectarian issues within the Sunni sect of Islam.
They both follow the Sunni sect, but they have various interpretations of it, it's a bit of a death war as well. The JUYF has previously been
targeted only last month by the Islamic State for various reasons, along with saying that it's because of democracy. So it's not the Pakistani
Taliban this time. There is a sense of unease in Pakistan. But we're just going to have to wait and see as we get closer to the elections, which are
later in October, how the security situation in the country is going to continue to be. Eleni?
GIOKOS: Sophia Saifi, thank you so much for that. And still to come tonight, intense rainfall in China causes dangerous flooding, and while one
storm weakens, another typhoon is on the horizon. We'll have an update from the CNN Weather Center. Stay with us.
GIOKOS: Welcome back, I'm Eleni Giokos in Abu Dhabi. A developing story out of northern Spain where police say a tourist bus overturned along the
scenic Los Lagos highway near the city of Oviedo. Police say all 48 passengers including children were rescued by emergency crews. Medical
helicopters also assisted. One local official said the bus veered off the main road and rolled down a hillside.
China is now dealing with the aftermath of a deadly Typhoon Doksuri, dangerous flooding and swollen rivers in the region swept away cars and
structures. More than 31,000 people were evacuated in Beijing, while this storm weakens a bit, there is another typhoon on the horizon, but its track
is uncertain. Joining us now with more, we've got CNN Meteorologist Chad Myers. Great to have you with us.
Look, we're seeing some of these images, so what is the latest on Typhoon Doksuri, which is important. We need to understand where it's at --
CHAD MYERS, METEOROLOGIST: Right --
GIOKOS: And then, of course, the other storm where we're trying to track its path?
MYERS: Right, so Doksuri came in last week, just to the south of Taiwan and did make landfall in mainland China, and then traveled up here, it's not a
typhoon, just a remnant moisture of the typhoon itself. Just the tropical intense rainfall. And then it slowed down right through here, right through
the Beijing area.
Now, the next storm we're talking about, Khanun or Khanuni(ph), depending on how you want to pronounce it, jackfruit there in Thailand. That's a
storm that may make another approach to the mainland China. But look at some of these numbers, one third of a meter or 12 inches of rainfall came
down just in 48 to 72 hours, causing pictures like this.
Just to the west was the bullseye west of Beijing where some of those spots in there, I can pick out 250 to 350 millimeters of rainfall. So, here's
Khanun, you can call it whatever you like, Khanun, Khanuni(ph), here it is, Okinawa, all the way up to Amami Oshima. These are the areas that are going
to get impacted by this. But like you said, don't really know where this is going to go.
Because the computer models are very confused after about 72 hours, and even the joint typhoon warning center turns it up toward the north, and
some of the computer models then turn it back towards the left or to the west. But this is what the American model looks like after about 72. We
know where it's going for now.
That would be Okinawa in the area there, and likely somewhere in the ballpark of a 220 kilometers per hour storm. But after that, all of these
different ensembles have completely different ideas of where this is going. The one that we trust the most does have, approaching mainland China,
there's Shanghai up there. But then kind of stopping and turning and then turning to the right.
When that happens, all kinds of things can happen. The storm can lose intensity, it can get sheared apart, or it can just rain and rain and rain
for days in places where it stops. Certainly, in the ocean, the computers are saying a meter of rainfall. Let's hope that is not in the ocean near an
island chain there.
GIOKOS: Chad --
MYERS: Eleni --
GIOKOS: Yes, I mean, look, there are a lot of probabilities that you --
MYERS: Yes --
GIOKOS: Spelled out there. More people will have a little bit more understanding of this as the days go on. Thank you --
MYERS: Yes --
GIOKOS: So much Chad Myers, much appreciate it. And still to come on CNN, Ukraine on a push to reclaim territory as Moscow raises the specter of
nuclear war. We'll take another look at our top story this hour. Plus CNN investigates U.K. surveillance technology used to monitor migrants crossing
the English Channel. The troubling findings and the U.K.'s response, that's next.
GIOKOS: Welcome back. Now Ukraine says it's making gains on the battlefield, but more slowly than it would like. The counteroffensive got
underway almost two months ago, so it's still in the early stages. Ukraine is under pressure to make big advances after receiving billions of dollars
worth of tanks and weapons from the West. Russia is trying to spin the counteroffensive as a failure. But on Sunday, former Russian President,
Dmitry Medvedev, now serving as Deputy Chairman of his country's Security Council, said that Moscow would have to use nuclear weapons if the
counteroffensive turned out to be a success.
Let's discuss this further. We've got CNN Military Analyst and retired U.S. Air Force Colonel Cedric Leighton. Colonel, great to have you with us.
Thank you. Look, we've seen nuclear threats before. This isn't new. But the mention of the counteroffensive is, of course, raising a lot of questions
on Russia's ability to actually push back the success of the counteroffensive and the question on whether Russia is feeling vulnerable.
CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, Eleni, this is one of the key things to note here. I think the fact that, you know, Russia feels
vulnerable because of the Ukrainian success, so even though they're trying to spin this as a failure on the part of the Ukrainians, the real answer is
that it's actually much more of a Russian failure than anything else. Russia has not advanced in 10 months. They have not been able to do
anything that would allow them to move their forces forward. They basically allowed for a war of attrition to take place. And as a result of this,
they've, in essence, developed these defensive lines, which are vulnerable. There's no question about it.
But the question that they have to deal with is, you know, can they actually sustain this defensive process? It appears that they are not able
to sustain that, and they believe, they fear that Ukraine will actually gain the upper hand soon.
GIOKOS: Look, Zelenskyy also says the war is now moving to Russia. That was one of the big questions, right? From the start of this war, if and when
the war would move to Russia. We also know that Ukraine cannot use any NATO equipment, cannot bring any NATO equipment into that fight. How successful
can Ukraine be in Russia?
LEIGHTON: Well, it won't be a -- an en masse kind of thing that they can do in Russia. They're going to have a -- attacks that are very limited in
scope. You're going to see the kinds of attacks that we saw in Moscow, in Belgorod and a few other places, you know, throughout this war. But the key
thing here is the fear factor. So, they are able to instill fear in places like Moscow, which is 800 kilometers away from the Ukrainian border, more
or less, and that is a basic flaw in the Russian system because they're allowing these types of things to happen.
But the Ukrainians cannot really prosecute and major advance into Russia. They say they don't want to, which is another key point here. But they
also, as you pointed out, don't have the equipment or the permission to use NATO equipment in the direction. They are therefore purely defensive
purposes and their ability to execute that defense, which includes that counteroffensive in -- within Ukrainian borders, that's really what the
Ukrainian mission is. And as long as they carry that out, they can be successful. But if they don't carry it out, then they risk a further
GIOKOS: Look, meantime, we've got peace talks that will be occurring in Saudi Arabia. We've seen peace talk after peace talk completely fail. Putin
is all in. Zelenskyy is all in.
They've all said they do not want to make any concessions. Now, we've got the specter of this nuclear threat once again hanging over this war,
Cedric. How successful can any peace talk at this point actually be? And who's going to have to make those big concessions?
LEIGHTON: Yes, Eleni, I think this is going to be really difficult, diplomatic endeavor. The fact of the matter is that both sides are
intransigent at this point. The Ukrainians, of course, have very publicly stated that there should be no Russian boots on their soil. And that means
the occupied territories. That includes the occupied territories from 2014. Crimea, the Donbas, the portion of the Donbas that they've had since that
So what the Ukrainians can probably hope for is some kind of a rollback of the positions that the Russians have taken since February of 2022. If that
happens, that might result in somewhat of a limited at least ceasefire. But that really points to a problem. The Ukraine will not be able to achieve
its goals, and Russia will not be able to achieve its goals. So, what might happen as a result of this is kind of a cold interim peace, almost similar
to what you see on the Korean Peninsula. And that, of course, is not an end state that either side wants at this point in time.
GIOKOS: Colonel Cedric Leighton, great to have you on. Thank you.
A worker at former President Donald Trump's home in Florida has made an appearance in a Miami courtroom. This is part of the classified documents
case that Trump is already charged in. Carlos de Oliveira is the property manager at Mar-a-Lago. He is accused of falsely telling FBI agents that he
did not help move boxes of documents at the estate.
Joining us now is CNN's Stephen Collinson to break this down for us, Stephen, great to have you with us. We're seeing those images coming
through from Miami, him appearing in the court. He's been accused of not being truthful about moving these boxes. Do you think that he's going to be
a potential witness here? Perhaps face criminal charges? How important is this person to the case?
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think, Eleni this all brings back that famous Watergate scandal, that it's not the crime that gets
someone. It's the cover-up. What is significant in the latest developments in this case with Mr. de Oliveira? Certain other workers at the Mar-a-Lago
resort is that he raised the possibility that former President Trump was not only hoarding classified documents, but that he was actively trying to
obstruct the government, getting them back, documents to which he was not entitled as a former president, some of which are of the highest national
So this is where the legal problem for Donald Trump is getting worse and worse, because if it is proven that he orchestrated the deleting of
surveillance tapes, as the special counsel is now alleging, that gets into a whole new level of criminal liability for him. Obstruction of justice,
which is far more potentially damaging in a courtroom in front of a jury than just the initial case about whether Trump was illegally keeping
classified documents that he had when he was president.
GIOKOS: Yes. I mean, really fascinating this. How -- I mean, look, Trump's legal problems do not end here. We see so many issues that surround him
right now, but how important is this case overall for Trump for his ability to run again as president? I mean, there's so much that is surrounding him
at this stage.
COLLINSON: Well, the ironic thing is that last week, we were all poised for an indictment of Trump in the case about his behavior after the last
election and running up to the Capitol Insurrection. And then the special counsel came and put more charges on him last Thursday night on the
classified documents case. There are also signs that the district attorneys' investigation in Georgia over Trump's attempt to overthrow the
election in that key state in 2020, that's also coming close to a charging decision. So, the legal morass around Trump is getting worse and worse
almost by the day. You could see a situation next year where he spends almost as much trial -- time on trial in a courtroom as he's able to do on
the campaign trial, but the political situation from the Trump, conversely, is actually getting a lot better.
There's no real sign that any of his Republican challenges in the primary race are making much ground against him. A poll out today has him 37 points
ahead of his biggest rival, Ron DeSantis, the Florida governor, in that race. So Republican voters aren't buying any of this right now.
GIOKOS: Wow. Stephen Collinson, thank you very much for that.
Well, still to come on CNN, we'll have more on how the U.K. government is ramping up measures to deter migrants crossing the channel from France.
GIOKOS: In the U.K., the government is ramping up measures to deter migrants crossing the channel from France. A controversial new law has
passed criminalizing anyone seeking asylum this way. To aid this, the country has invested millions in high tech surveillance to spot small
boats, but CNN investigation found no evidence it was used during the deadliest incidents in the channel last year.
Katie Polglase joins me now from London. Look, despite this high tech surveillance, we have still seen people losing their lives. So, what did
you discover in your investigation, Katie?
KATIE POLGLASE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Eleni, we found that border control, not just in the U.K. , but globally, is the latest area for AI to
enter into and with some troubling consequences. The fundamental question here is how is this AI technology and the information it provides to
authorities being used? And what we found is that while AI companies advertise it has positive implementations. It can save lives. It can help
improve the speed of rescue operations if people are in distress, what we found was that in the case of the U.K. and the deadliest incident in the
English channel last year, four people died, there was no evidence this tech was used, and instead it formed part of a campaign of deterrence and
hostility. Have a watch of what we found.
POLGLASE (voice-over): It's 3:00 in the morning on the 14th of December 2022 in the middle of the English channel. A fisherman has spotted multiple
people in the water and is trying to haul them out.
RAYMOND STRACHAN, FISHERMAN: It was pitch dark. It was a very cold night, minus one, minus two, and there was a lot of screaming.
POLGLASE (voice-over): In total, they rescued 31 people from the sinking vessel, including two Afghan boys, just 12 and 13 years old.
STRACHAN: It's not an area that we fish in a lot, and if we weren't there, everyone there would have probably drowned.
POLGLASE (voice-over): U.K. authorities arrive later and rescue eight more. Four die in what becomes the worst migrant tragedy in the channel that
year. But officials had been informed of the incident nearly an hour earlier.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please help our -- we have children and family in a boat. Please, we are in the water.
POLGLASE (voice-over): And just before 2:00 am, the boat had made a distress call here to Utopia 56, a French migrant charity that passed it on
to the French and U.K. authorities.
The French coast guards say the boat is undetectable on shipping radar, but estimate it will shortly cross into British waters.
Now, CNN has found that at the time of the incident, the U.K. government had expensive AI technology designed to spot these boats, and knowing that
the vessel was soon entering their territory, and that there were people freezing in the water, including children, they could have sent this.
A Tekever AR5 drone designed to detect small boats incapable of deploying a life raft. It's licensed by the U.K. government, even the British Prime
Minister proud to show it off. CNN has established it flew over the same area where the distress call was made on multiple previous journeys. It
even flew the day before and after the incident, but not in the hours the vessel was sinking. Instead, it took more than an hour for the first U.K.
lifeboat to arrive, in which time a fishing crew rescued the majority on board.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We must stop the boats.
POLGLASE (voice-over): This tech forms part of a campaign of deterrence and hostility by the government towards those attempting to reach British
shores. Millions of pounds have been spent on AI cameras trained to find rubber dinghies, some able to see beyond U.K. waters, drones with automatic
identification abilities. And while the companies tout their lifesaving capabilities, footage from these drones is also being used to identify
those driving the boats and prosecute them for human trafficking. A new bill will take it even further, criminalizing anyone who seeks asylum
in the U.K. this way.
PETRA MOLNAR, HUMAN RIGHTS AND MIGRATION LAWYER: Yes, technologies could very easily be used for search and rescue, for finding boats faster, for
preventing these horrific disasters. But unfortunately, the reality on the ground is the opposite. It's assisting powerful actors to be able to
sharpen their borders, make it more difficult for people to come, and again, using surveillance for these kinds of ends.
POLGLASE (voice-over): And it follows a global trend in digitizing border security.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These towers operate 24/7, 365.
POLGLASE (voice-over): The same-century towers made by the American tech startup, Anduril, that line the US-Mexico border have recently been
installed along the British coastline to identify and track boats.
Another company, Sirius Insight AI, whose technology is also available to the U.K. authorities, insisted their tech is used for saving lives, but
stopped short of talking about how the government uses it.
MALCOLM GLAISTER, CEO, SIRIUS INSIGHT AI: Our equipment shows any vessel that's in the U.K. territory waters, where it is and where it's going. And
if that vessel is in distress, it allows the lifeboat to get to that precise location because we're tracking it.
POLGLASE: And so we've been following some of the incidents that have unfortunately led to fatalities in the channel. If we have this technology,
why are people dying?
GLAISTER: I don't think I can comment on those instances because of the commercial nature of our relationship with the Home Office.
POLGLASE (voice-over): The Home Office declined to comment on the incident on the 14th of December. In response to a Freedom of Information request
submitted by CNN, U.K. Border Force said, revealing the tech's capability might aid the criminals facilitating the crossings and increase risk to
life at sea. The Coast Guard declined to comment, citing an ongoing investigation into the incident and a court case underway to prosecute the
alleged driver of the boat.
A new record was set for June with nearly 4,000 people detected arriving to the U.K., but for those that do make it, they face an increasingly hostile
POLGLASE (on camera): Now, this Illegal Migration Bill has now passed into law. It means that here in the U.K., if you arrive by boat to seek asylum,
not just the driver, but any of the passengers, you will be detained and then deported. Now, this law has faced serious backlash here in the U.K.,
not only in the U.K. Parliament, but now also internationally. The United Nations has issued a statement with regards to the law, issuing some
concerns, and they say that the U.K. is now at variance with their obligations under international Human Rights and Refugee Law. And the
statement goes on to say it will have profound consequences for people in need of international protection, Eleni.
GIOKOS: Brilliant work, Katie Polglase for us. Thank you so much.
A wrecking ball to Britain's climate commitments, that's how Rishi Sunak's new plans are being described after the Prime Minister gave the green light
to a big expansion of drilling for oil and gas in the North Sea. Mr. Sunak has defended that move, claiming that extracting fossil fuels at home is
more efficient than shipping from overseas.
But when it comes as the world faces an accelerating climate crisis shown through a wave of extreme weather, with July set to become the world's
hottest month on record.
Well, still come tonight, search is underway in Haiti for an American nurse and her child just days after the U.S. urged citizens to leave the
Caribbean nation. That story is up next. It's me, Anthony Sullivan.
GIOKOS: Welcome back. Now, the White House is closely monitoring the situation in Haiti after an American nurse and her child were kidnapped.
Alex Dawsonville, seen here with her husband, was reportedly abducted alongside her child on Thursday morning, that is according to the aid
agency she works for.
I want to bring in CNN's Paula Newton for more. Paula, what more do we know about trying to get her out?
PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: At this point, both the U.S. State Department, Haitian authorities, the charity, her friends and family are
saying that the best thing is discretion at this point in time. They are not saying anything at all, which, given the fact that she was taken from
the actual grounds of her charity, would lead you to believe that, at this point in time, they want to make sure that if there are any negotiations
underway, if they do know who took her and her child, that they deal exclusively with that group and try and deal with interested parties to see
if they can get them released as soon as possible very safely.
There is a statement posted on that charity's website. It reads, our team at El Roi Haiti is grateful for the outpouring of prayers, care, and
support for our colleague. And they go on to say that they are working with the people on the ground in Haiti to ensure their swift release.
Now, Eleni, I don't have to remind you what it's been like in Haiti in the last few years with gang violence, brutal, absolutely brutal for all
Haitians, especially in the capital Port of Prince. And at this point in time, even aid agencies, aid agencies that I've spoken to on the ground in
the last few weeks, say it's become so difficult even just to get food to go to things -- attend things like school, or to try and get medical help.
But I want you to listen now to this nurse from New Hampshire, Alex St vil in her own words, talk about why she has been in Haiti for the last several
years and how she wants to help. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALEX DORSAINVIL, AMERICAN VOLUNTEER KIDNAPPED IN HAITI: Sandro invited me to come to the school to do some nursing for some of the kids. He said that
was a big need that they had. At first, I didn't think that there was going to be much of a need there, but when I got there, there were so many cases.
Patients are such a resilient people.
They're full of joy and life and love. And I'm so blessed to be able to know so many amazing Haitians.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NEWTON: Now Sandro was in fact her husband and the director of that charity, Eleni, the State Department again saying they don't want to make
any comments. Also, we reached out to Haitian authorities and Haitian police and they again have no comment for us, Eleni.
GIOKOS: Yes. Paula Newton, thank you so much for that update. Great to have you on.
Well, before we end the show, we want to show you some celebrations that were shocking and thrilling, showdowns that we saw. It's crunch time at the
Women's World Cup as teams begin to secure their spot in the knockout stages. Australian fans jumped for joy after the co-host defeated reigning
Olympic champion Canada to reach the last 16.
Whilst crowds in Adelaide watched Morocco earn their first ever win at a World Cup as a scored surprise victory over South Korea. Now with defender
Nouhaila Benzina making history as the first player to wear hijab at a World Cup.
Now over in Perth, Nigeria's Super Falcons beat the odds by advancing to the next round after a draw with Ireland. With the head coach Randy Waldrum
saying, when we started this journey, so many things went well, so many things didn't go well. But they never gave up and I'm so proud of them.
Well, thank you so very much for joining us. I'm Eleni Giokos. QUEST MEANS BUSINESS is up next.