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Isa Soares Tonight

U.S. Pauses Arms Shipment To Israel; Fuel And Aid Running Low In Rafah; Trump Catches A Big Break In Two Of His Court Cases; Israel-Hamas War; Ceasefire Negotiation Discussion, CIA Director Meets With Netanyahu; Bomb Shipments To Israel Withheld By U.S., Says Austin; Photographer Sebastiao Salgado Reflects On His Life's Work; Weight Loss Drugs May Lead To Unexpected Pregnancies. Aired 2-3p ET

Aired May 08, 2024 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:27]

ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: A very warm welcome to the show, everyone, I'm Isa Soares. Tonight, the U.S. pauses a bomb shipment to

Israel and a sign of its concern over a full scale assault on Rafah. We have the very latest. Meanwhile, in Rafah, more than a million Palestinians

are in dire conditions, and there are only a few days of fuel left.

The head of the Norwegian Refugee Council Jan Egeland joins me in just a moment. And a body of work that bears witness to history captured in

signature black and white. My conversation with world renowned photographer Sebastiao Salgado.

But first, tonight, we begin with an unprecedented development in the longstanding relationship between the closest of allies, the United States

and Israel. The U.S. Defense Secretary confirms that the U.S. is pausing -- since they may be used in a major offensive in Rafah.

Lloyd Austin says Israel shouldn't mount an attack there without a plan, accounting for the safety of civilians. It is something of course, that the

U.S. has been calling for, for some time. His comments follow a CNN report last week that the U.S. had suspended shipments of more than 3,500 bombs to

Israel. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LLOYD AUSTIN, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, UNITED STATES: We're going to continue to do what's necessary to ensure that Israel has the means to defend

itself. But that said, we are currently reviewing some near-term security assistance shipments, in the context of unfolding events in Rafah.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: Meantime, Israeli officials said the Kerem Shalom Crossing has been reopened and humanitarian aid is flowing in once again. Palestinian

authorities though, said there haven't been any trucks that have crossed into Gaza. With more now, we're joined by CNN's chief international

correspondent Clarissa Ward who is for us in Jerusalem and our national security correspondent Natasha Bertrand in Washington.

Clarissa, to you first, I think it's fair to say that we are starting to see Clarissa, the impact of what Israel is calling this limit-all --

limited operation from the displacement of people to the delivery of aid. Just bring us up-to-date with the very latest with what's happening in

Rafah?

CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: So far, according to the U.N., Isa, some 50,000 people have now evacuated from Rafah, they're

evacuating for the most part to these so-called safe zones. But aid workers are warning that there is not enough space in these safe zones.

There is not enough infrastructure to support the arrival of these tens of thousands of people, some of whom, Isa, have been displaced now four or

five times. The World Health Organization is also warning that the hospitals in southern Gaza will shut down in three days if more fuel does

not start to get through the border.

You may remember at the beginning of this conflict back in October, this was a consistent theme and concern of the humanitarian aid workers that the

blockage of aid most pronounced effect would be this blockage of fuel, and that in turn would have a huge impact on the entire hospital and medical

care system.

There have been strikes continuing, six people according to Palestinian health officials on the ground were killed overnight, two of them, women,

but reports of more strikes during the day today, and certainly a very high state of fear, not quite all-out panic yet, but high fear and anxiety that

this so-called what the Israelis are calling a surgical or precision anti- terror operation could unfold into a broader offensive that would have cataclysmic effects, Isa.

SOARES: And as you were talking, Clarissa, Matthew Miller; the State Department spokesperson is speaking at this moment. He just said that the

U.S. has not seen any trucks crossing Kerem Shalom. He's also said Natasha, that U.S. is reviewing pausing other shipments, bombs shipments. Just speak

to that, the why now, and the message that the U.S. is trying to convey?

NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Isa, it has everything to do with the Israeli plans when it comes to Rafah, and just how they're going

to go about protecting the more than 1 million Palestinian civilians who have moved there over the course of the war, who were told to move there by

the Israelis as they were conducting their operations across the rest of the Gaza Strip.

[14:05:00]

And the U.S. now says that over the last month or so, they have been in consultation with the Israelis about what their plan is to get those

civilians out, and they have not yet heard an actual achievable plan by the Israelis to move those civilians. And if they do not have one and if they

move forward with a major ground operation there, then it will be catastrophic.

So, short of that plan, the U.S. is now saying, well, we are going to pause our shipments of these massive high payload munitions to Israel. Those

2,000 pound bombs that Israel has used to really devastating effect elsewhere in Gaza until we are confident that the Israelis are not going to

move into Rafah without any concern really for the Palestinian civilians who are there.

And so, this really all has to do with the U.S. finally using its leverage, its military -- its leverage in terms of military support for Israel in

order to try to affect Israeli policy and the Israeli behavior on the battlefield. We'll see if that actually makes a difference, but we are told

that the Israelis are pretty upset about this.

They are not happy and they are saying behind the scenes that they believe that the pressure should be on Hamas rather than on Israel. Well, the U.S.

message is, look, we don't necessarily think you need this huge shipment of 2,000-pound bombs at this moment, particularly in such a densely urban --

densely populated urban area as Rafah and as, you know, southern Gaza, where these could be used to really devastating effect, Isa.

SOARES: Natasha Bertrand and Clarissa Ward, thank you to you, both. And in yet another test of the bond between the U.S. and Israel, a report from the

White House and whether Israel has violated international humanitarian law during the war in Gaza.

A few moments ago, the U.S. State Department announced that high-stakes report will not be delivered to the U.S. Congress today. CNN's Jennifer

Hansler joins us from the State Department. I suppose the obvious question is, why this report has been delayed because this was, Jenni, I think it's

fair to say a momentous report that has being the subject of great debate and division.

JENNIFER HANSLER, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT PRODUCER: Well, that's right, Isa. And the thing that the State Department is saying here is that they want to

do a good job. They want to do the job right, and that is taking some time. They're arguing this is the first time that they've ever had to produce

this kind of report during an active conflict, and therefore, they're saying they're not able to meet that, what they're calling a self-imposed

deadline of today.

So, we are expecting that report to be transmitted to Capitol Hill in the coming days. Now, this has the potential to be an extremely significant

report because this isn't the first time since the start of the war in Gaza that the U.S. will have to determine yes or no, whether Israel has

committed violations of international humanitarian law.

And they will also have to decide whether Israel has held up U.S humanitarian assistance into the besieged Gaza Strip. This is something

that humanitarian aid officials say is indisputable, is happening and the report itself is causing a lot of divisions both within the administration,

as well as on Capitol Hill.

We know here at the State Department, there have been divisions among different offices about whether Israel's assurances that they are using

U.S. weapons in accordance with law can be in fact deemed credible and reliable. We know some here are in favor of it and some have not taken a

position.

On the Hill, it is this group of Democrats led largely by Senator Chris Van Hollen, who called for this national security memorandum. This is the thing

that mandated this report to be created, and they are calling for the administration not to take Israel's assurances just at face value. They

want to see this be substantive. They want to see this to --

SOARES: Yes --

HANSLER: Be detailed and fact-based, Isa.

SOARES: And Jennifer, very briefly, do we know when this report will be put out, and really what are more important, I should say here, what are the

political implications if it does find that Israel did indeed violate human rights here?

HANSLER: Well, Isa, they're saying it's not going to be too long of a delay. They expect it to be in the coming days. And the report itself

doesn't necessarily mandate any consequences for Israel, but it will likely create huge pressure to take further action to restrict arms if it is found

to be in violation of --

SOARES: Yes --

HANSLER: Humanitarian law, or you know, if there is not a violation found, this is going to cause a lot of uproar among these people in the

humanitarian aid community, in the international aid community, and also within members of President Biden's own party here, Isa.

SOARES: Without a doubt, Jennifer, really appreciate you breaking it all down for us, good to see you. And roughly, 50,000 people have now left the

southern city of Rafah in Gaza in just the last 48 hours or so. That is according to United Nations. They have been forced to flee after Israel's

evacuation order, and as a large-scale military offensive continues to loom.

[14:10:00]

The areas Israel have deemed as humanitarian zones are struggling as you can see there on your map, really to accommodate the influx of people. The

W.H.O. warns hospitals in the south of Gaza only have three days left of fuel. And the largest hospital in eastern Rafah has been forced to evacuate

and relocate, imagine that, to a makeshift facility.

Aid groups say people are afraid and desperately in need of humanitarian aid. I want to bring in Jan Egeland; Secretary-General of the Norwegian

Refugee Council, a well-known face here on the show, he has strongly condemned any Israeli military action in Rafah, warning that it could cause

mass atrocities and force teams across on the ground to suspend life-saving work.

Jan, welcome back to the show, it's so important to have you here today of all days. You must be aghast, I suspect like so many other NGOs over this

decision by Netanyahu to go into Rafah. Just tell us what you're hearing from your teams on the ground, Jan.

JAN EGELAND, SECRETARY-GENERAL, NORWEGIAN REFUGEE COUNCIL: What I hear from my colleagues in Rafah, and I was with them in Rafah just a few weeks back,

they tell me about limitless bear desperation, despair. Many of my own Palestinian colleagues from the Norwegian Refugee Council has split five,

six, a couple of families, seven times again and again.

The Israeli war machine has told them you have to leave, sometimes with drones coming with loudspeakers and saying, drop everything, leave within

the hour and go to yet another place. And the last refuge is Rafah, that there is a million people, more than a million people on top of the

population, which was there forehand.

And now to plow through this with a war machine would be a stain on a conscience, not of Israel, but on the United States, Germany and the other

countries that has provided the arms for this attack. Remember, these are people who had nothing to do with most of them, 99 percent of these people

have nothing to do with the atrocities of the 7th of October.

SOARES: And you mentioned arms, let me ask you this, as you have heard, you know, the U.S. is now stopping arms to Israel, pausing, I should say this

last batch of arms to Israel. What do you say to that? I know you have been calling for this, you've been tweeting about it. What is your reaction --

EGELAND: Yes --

SOARES: To this -- to this pause?

EGELAND: You know, finally, how on earth could the United States, our closest ally in NATO provide indiscriminate 2,000-pound bombs to an

indiscriminate military campaign in a place filled with women and children that has no escape. You can't make this up really. It's -- there has to be

negotiations to release the poor hostages that must be released. Hamas must be put to justice for what they did, but not through a bloodbath --

SOARES: Yes --

EGELAND: Among women and children.

SOARES: You know, what you are telling me in terms of the fear that, desperation, the anxiety is something that I heard from an NGO worker on

the ground in Rafah yesterday. What we know as well, Jan, is that the IDF is telling people -- I wonder if we can bring the map up, Sarah(ph), just

get my producer to bring it up, of the areas they've been told to move from and to. And this is kind of the Al-Mawasi area --

EGELAND: Yes --

SOARES: Do we know, Jan? I mean, what does that look like? Is there infrastructure, shelter, sewage, water?

EGELAND: No, the point is Al-Mawasi is a stretch of sand, the reason Israel wants people to go there is that, there is nothing there, and thereby also

no tunnels in that time. Now hundreds of thousands of people that were ready, you cannot move a million people to the space. There is nothing for

them there.

The other place they say is to go to Khan Yunis, which is next door to Rafah. Well, they destroyed Khan Yunis, it looks like Stalingrad after the

second World War.

There is rubble over there, so again, back to this campaign has to be stopped, they are so close to the two parties, Israel and Hamas from a

ceasefire deal that would release hostages --

SOARES: Yes --

EGELAND: Would release all of the prisoners that Israel has also jailed, and we could then have a political process and we could spare the women and

children in Rafah --

SOARES: Yes, and that -- those negotiations is still going. Bill Burns, CIA, has been speaking to President and Prime Minister Netanyahu today,

we're waiting to see what comes out of that. But on your point in terms of the movement of people, some people just cannot move, the elderly, those of

course, who --

EGELAND: Yes --

[14:15:00]

SOARES: Have already been injured multiple times cannot move, and that's another concern. The other area I wanted to get your thoughts on, Jan, is

that there has been in the last hours, sort of conflicting reports over the Kerem Shalom Crossing.

This time yesterday, Israel was saying that it was going to open this morning, Israel did say that it has opened, but the United States -- in

fact, the U.S. has said that it has not seen any trucks. This is the last ten minutes or so.

EGELAND: Yes.

SOARES: Matthew Miller of the State Department, spokesman, saying they haven't seen any trucks going in, crossing Kerem Shalom. What is your

understanding? Have any trucks crossed? Have any trucks moved in?

EGELAND: I also heard that it was what opened. Today, we have no trucks going over. I have heard of no human and trucks over Kerem Shalom from

Israel and Rafah. They have taken over as well, which was a lifeline through Egypt. We got in quite a few prompts last Saturday.

They -- this consignment of relief, much-needed is in our warehouse, we were supposed to distribute it now, we don't have fuel for that. So, it's

sitting in our warehouse without fuel and with no cash available. We cannot either rent cars, trucks, anything. The lifeline is faltering as we speak.

And people will die in massive numbers unless we get the ceasefire, we get --

SOARES: Yes --

EGELAND: Fuel, and we get a new -- the -- back to some semblance of an economy.

SOARES: And as you're talking, Jan, we're just seeing the U.N. says that no goods entered Gaza today through key crossings. It is what we're hearing

today over -- from the U.N. on the -- on the -- on the crossings. Clearly, a dire situation. Very quickly, very briefly on an operational front, what

are you telling your team on the ground if this becomes an expanded and extended, of course, military offensive, what are you advising your teams?

So, what is the cut-off point here for you, Jan?

EGELAND: Well, I mean, we will do our work as long as we can. We're humanitarians, but we're unarmed and we're not going to be suicidal here.

Some of our Palestinian colleagues have already fled out of Rafah with whatever donkey they put --

SOARES: Yes --

EGELAND: That. We have some international aid workers, heroic aid workers that's still there. We will stay and do our work as long as we can. But if

this continues, there will be no aid work and people would die in massive numbers, and it will be on Netanyahu and those who support him as it will

be on Hamas.

That is increasingly reckless, and it was Israel who bumped the Kerem Shalom Crossing at one point. Was these men on both sides? They do not care

that the civilians are dying. Because the children is apparently not their children nor their relatives.

SOARES: Jan Egeland, as always, wonderful to have you on the show. Appreciate, well all in all, of course, of all your aid workers and the

tremendous work that you're all doing under the most dire of circumstances. Thank you, Jan, good to see you.

EGELAND: Thank you.

SOARES: And still to come tonight, after a testy day in court on Tuesday, Donald Trump is dealt an upper hand in two of his four criminal cases.

We'll break it down for you. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:21:12]

SOARES: Donald Trump's hush money trial will resume tomorrow after taking Wednesday off as per usual, the former U.S. President is also catching a

break in two of his other court cases. The Georgia Court of Appeals says it will consider Trump's effort to disqualify District Attorney Fani Willis

from the election subversion case.

And the judge overseeing Trump's classified documents case has indefinitely delayed that trial. CNN justice correspondent Jessica Schneider joins us

now to break it all down for us. And Jessica, we'll talk about the political implications of all of this in just a moment.

But just explain to our viewers right around the world, the reasoning here that the Judge Aileen Cannon gave for postponing it.

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, first of all, Isa, you know, Judge Cannon has actually come under a lot of criticism just in the

way she's already conducted this case. She's likely to face even more criticism after this recent order that came down yesterday.

So, her reasoning is that she has eight pending motions to resolve, and she says that, that will take her at least until the end of July to resolve all

of those. That's why she is pausing this trial date -- trial start date indefinitely.

It was actually supposed to start in just about ten days, May 20th, but now she's saying, I want to resolve all of these issues before we even put a

trial start date on the calendar. Needless to say, this is a big win for Donald Trump, not just by the mere fact that it delays this trial, but

Judge Cannon is also going to be hearing two of his motions that many legal watchers considered a long shot.

So, on June 21st, she's going to be hearing Donald Trump's motion against the special counsel, Jack Smith. Trump has said that he believes Jack Smith

is unlawfully appointed. So, they're actually going to have an in-court argument about that motion.

And then on June 24th, they're going to have a three-day argument on another long shot motion that Donald Trump actually wants access to Biden

administration records from the White House and from other agencies. Donald Trump's contention is that agencies within the Biden administration are

somehow involved in this prosecution.

So, again, Isa, a very long shot motions that this judge is taking seriously and having hearings on that it will be delaying the start of this

trial. So, she says she has a lot of bookkeeping to get an order before she even puts a trial start date on the books.

SOARES: Right, a lot of bookkeeping and I imagine that, with all that bookkeeping, the Trump team must be rubbing their hands with glee, Jessica.

I mean, it's also because of this Georgia court now of appeals.

SCHNEIDER: Yes.

SOARES: What is the latest on that front?

SCHNEIDER: Well, it looks like with the appeals court hearing, you know, whether Fani Willis should have been removed from the case or not, that's

going to further delay things. I mean, you know, the Fani Willis' case is massive.

She's got more than a dozen defendants including Donald Trump. So, the likelihood, even before this appeals court decided to hear this part of the

case, the likelihood that this case was even going to happen before the election, was getting slimmer and slimmer by the day.

This appeals court is not known to move very fast. So, it's possible that they won't even have a decision on whether Fani Willis should be removed

from the case for several months. So, all of this is really putting the brakes on the Georgia case as well, plus, you add in, if Donald Trump does

win the election and does become president, the likelihood of a state prosecution going forward of a sitting president is extremely unlikely.

And Donald Trump would likely be able to put the brakes on the two special counsel cases, the classified documents of January 6. So, yes, things are

looking very rosy for Donald Trump's defense team. It looks like they're only going to have to tackle this hush money case before the election, Isa.

SOARES: Yes, such important context that you added there, Jessica, appreciate as always -- as always, thank you.

[14:25:00]

And still to come tonight, the director of the CIA is pushing for a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas. We'll take a look at the impact if

any, that the meetings are having, plus --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEBASTIAO SALGADO, PHOTOGRAPHER: After the genocide, with all the refugees that came to Congo, to Tanzania, to Burundi, that affect me deeply.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: Why this was the moment Brazilian photographer Sebastiao Salgado almost gave up the camera for good. Our interview coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOARES: Welcome back everyone. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has met with the director of the CIA to discuss the state of ceasefire

negotiations with Hamas, shortly after Bill Burns met with Mr. Netanyahu. The White House Press Secretary said the U.S. remains optimistic, pardon

me, that a deal can be reached.

Wednesday's visit follows Burns' trip to Cairo where he was joined by mediators from Egypt and Qatar. Look at -- to our Nic Robertson joins me

now for more. And Nic, before we talk about negotiations, I want to ask you about something that's been alerted to us that we're hearing that IDF

operations in Rafah have been expanding now from airstrikes to ground operations. I mean, that -- is that to be expected? What are you seeing?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: I think it's certainly concurrent with everything else that we've seen that, you know, yesterday,

they took control of the Palestinian side of the Rafah border crossing. That's ground operations. They drove along the -- essentially along the

border, took control of it.

[14:30:00]

We had seen through Palestinian social media or social media on coming from Palestinians in Gaza that they had seen heavy bulldozers lined up waiting

to come in. And there's what -- there's some evidence here in this new information that perhaps those bulldozers are already moving forward. These

are these very heavy bulldozers. Things that vehicles that the IDF uses to make roads, pave the way, clear things out of the way for the troops to

move forward.

So, again, this all looks like this operation becoming more ready. Look, I think there were two things here. The IDF talking about pinpoint airstrikes

already.

SOARES: Yes.

ROBERTSON: There's an element that really says this operation is already underway, both with these airstrikes and the maneuvers on the ground. Full-

fledged, massive operation that we saw in the north back in October. That hasn't quite started yet. But I think this is the negotiating tool that

Netanyahu behind him at the moment --

SOARES: Right

ROBERTSON: -- if we don't reach agreement, then this gets going.

SOARES: So, you see this more as a tactic rather than a signal that the negotiations are not going well?

ROBERTSON: Mm-hmm.

SOARES: Because yesterday, this time yesterday, the U.S. was expressing optimism.

ROBERTSON: And I think there still is a reason to be optimistic, but this is the art of negotiations. It's full pressure until the other side

concedes.

SOARES: Yes.

ROBERTSON: And it's all about concessions, and both sides will have to make concessions. I don't think this is as much a ploy as it is pressure, yes.

SOARES: Yes.

ROBERTSON: But it's the reality of standing an army up, getting it into position, getting it ready. Why were servicemen killed by Hamas rocket

strikes near Kerem Shalom on Sunday? Because they would gather together. And the satellite imagery, we're looking at now, shows that there are

armored vehicles, sort of, getting into mustering positions.

Israel -- in military planning. The first steps of this operation have already begun. They're unfolding. It just hasn't gone full tilt yet.

SOARES: Where are we then on the negotiations? What are you hearing from the Qatari side? From the Saudi side? What is the message? Because we have

seen con -- we have heard, I should say, condemnation from Australia, from Germany, over -- you know this Rafah -- Eastern Rafah offensive.

ROBERTSON: And the fact that there's no actual humanitarian aid --

SOARES: Absolutely.

ROBERTSON: -- arrived in today as you've been talking about with guests already on the show here.

SOARES: Yes.

ROBERTSON: All of this adds up to a picture now where the dynamic in the negotiations, it will be very, very focused. But I think, you know, the key

to this will have been the meeting between the CIA Director General Bill Burns --

SOARES: Which happens today, right?

ROBERTSON: -- and Prime Minister Netanyahu. And then uptake (ph) Netanyahu goes into his war cabinet, which we understand began -- was expected to

begin a couple of hours ago. Typically, we don't get rapid fire information out of that. They may sit on it. Typically, it can go from a war cabinet

meeting. This smaller to the larger security cabinet meeting before we see effects on the ground.

But again, I think the effect that will come out of this will either be negotiations continue a bit longer. The army will just have to hold

themselves in check a little, and I think the keys for that are, again, things you have talked about on the show that have developed in the last

hour or so.

State Department not putting out its report yet about --

SOARES: Correct.

ROBERTSON: -- possible violations by Israel.

SOARES: That's being delayed, yes.

ROBERTSON: -- That tells you that there's still something in play around the negotiating table, and probably the United States doesn't want to up --

these are very, very delicate moments. And the fact that Israel still has some negotiators in Cairo.

SOARES: Yes.

ROBERTSON: Again, it's an indicator that this is a -- this is all in play.

SOARES: And another indicator, the fact that Matthew Miller from the State Department said in the top of the hour that they are reviewing pausing

other shipments of weapons.

ROBERTSON: Again, pressure --

SOARES: So, I think that's --

ROBERTSON: -- you know.

SOARES: Indeed.

ROBERTSON: It's all the same picture. There's increasing pressure from the United States on Prime Minister Netanyahu that he hasn't had before and

this will be focusing his mind on the compromises they will expect to make.

SOARES: Let's see if it does. So far, it has -- nothing has really focused his mind. I mean, every time the U.S. has asked for plan, they've got

nothing.

ROBERTSON: Mm-hmm.

SOARES: So, appreciate it, Nic. Thank you very much.

Well, let's take a closer look at the apparent cracks in U.S.-Israeli relationship. However, worth remembering that Israel is by far the largest

recipient of U.S. military aid across the globe.

Joining us now is Jasmine El-Gamal, the CEO and founder of Mindwork Strategies, and a former Middle East advisor at the Pentagon. Jasmine, good

to see you again. How do you assess, first of all, this pause that we have heard, you know, just today in these 2,000-pound bombs to Israel? I mean,

is this a policy change, a sign of frustration from the U.S. side, or just a tactic here?

JASMINE EL-GAMAL, FORMER MIDDLE EAST ADVISOR, U.S. DEFENSE DEPARTMENT: It's so good to be with you, Isa. Thanks for having me. Well, let's start from

the beginning and I'll get to your question. I think if we look at what's happening in Rafah right now, it is a desperate move by a man desperate to

stay in power and to show that he has not been defeated by Israel's enemy, Hamas.

[14:35:00]

If you look at the strategic gains, there are none. All of that is going to happen over the next few days in Rafah. We've seen this before. We're going

to see more human rights violations by Israel. We're going to be -- to see more innocent people dead, including children, which is already happening.

And you're not -- and you're going to see potentially more hostages killed because of the bombardment and the military operations. And tensions

between the U.S. and its closest -- between Israel and its closest ally, the U.S.

And that brings me to your question. Now, these tensions have been building for months and months. And the U.S. government, President Biden personally,

Secretary Blinken, have been really trying to get the Israelis to scale back their military operations, to put more effort into negotiated

solutions, more long-term solutions for Israel's security and stability and to end this war to no avail.

And so, this latest move, is it a game changer? Is it a policy change? I think it's too soon to tell. It really depends on the Israeli reaction to

that. But it just seems like slightly more pressure that the U.S. administration is trying to place on Israel. But as we've seen again in the

last few months, that pressure hasn't really born much fruit when it comes to stopping the Israelis from doing what they want to do.

SOARES: And this is, of course, one, right, one, Jasmine, one shipment of bombs. They're more than six months into this war. 34,000 people dead. And

this decision perhaps illustrates the pressures not only on Netanyahu, but also, I think it's important to point out, on President Biden in an

election year. I want you to have a listen Jasmine to two senators and we will have -- what they had to say about this pause of shipment of bombs.

Have a listen supporting

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D-IL), U.S. SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Supporting the continued existence of Israel is easy, but defending the

tactics of Netanyahu in a -- in this response to the October atrocity has been difficult to understand, let alone defend.

SEN. THOM TILLIS (R-NC): There should never be any question about America's commitment, United States commitment to Israel. And I think Biden's

treading on some thin ice there and he's making a big mistake.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES: Speak then Jasmine to that pressure. I mean, where does this leave Biden and critically here, U.S.-Israel relations.

EL-GAMAL: Biden is caught between a rock and a hard place because he's trying to appease a certain demographic in the U.S. That is for continued

support to Israel. And then he's also trying to stave off a defeat, and to convince people to vote for him who have been saying that they won't vote

for him because of that support to Israel.

And so, he's in a tough spot. I think the main thing that President Biden wants to do right now is get to a negotiated solution. Get the hostages

released because the last thing that he wants to focus on in the summer months leading up to an election is the Israeli-Palestinian crisis and this

awful war that's happening in Gaza right now.

Now, the problem is that the Americans have not really been able to exert the right kind of pressure, the sustained significant kind of pressure that

is necessary to get Netanyahu to change his way of thinking precisely because and partly, to be fair, because Netanyahu sees himself as being in

an existential crisis, a survival -- a battle for his own survival.

And so, there's nothing -- it seems to be that there's nothing the Americans can do to change his mind. But also at the same time, there are

many things that the Americans haven't tried yet. And even this weapons shipment that we're talking about right now, Isa, the Americans have made

clear that they don't know whether they will eventually release the shipment or not.

So, it's not really a full, sort of, we are not going to give you these weapons. It's if you continue what you're doing, we won't release these

weapons shipments. But they're leaving that door open for that shipment to go through if Netanyahu doesn't go into the city of Rafah proper. So,

moving in from the outskirts and crossing red line with Biden.

But if we have time, there's just one more point I wanted to make about pressure.

SOARES: Briefly, go ahead.

EL-GAMAL: The Israelis and Prime Minister Netanyahu are saying that part of the reason why they're going into Rafah, partly, is to release the

hostages, to get them released and to put pressure on Hamas.

SOARES: Yes.

EL-GAMAL: But even as a tactic, no reason to believe that that will work because up until now, the Israelis have not -- the Hamas has not released

any hostages under duress. The only way they have released hostages is through negotiation. Hamas is not an organization that will bow to that

kind of pressure.

[14:40:00]

So, as a tactic, even, we've talked about the strategy and why it's faulty --

SOARES: Yes, yes, yes.

EL-GAMAL: -- but also as a tactic, it's not the right way to go.

SOARES: Jasmine, always great to get your insight. Jasmine El-Gamal there for us. Thanks, Jasmine.

And still to come tonight, one of the world's most famous living photographers tells me why living in the Amazon reignited his passion for

his work. My interview with Brazil's Sebastiao Salgado is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SOARES: The death toll has risen to 95 people in Brazil after heavy rain and flooding. The Brazilian president is now asking Congress to speed up

transferring resources. So far, more than 1 million people have been affected by the storms. More than 150,000 people are displaced, and more

than 130 people are missing. A volunteer tells CNN his team has seen looting and unfortunately more rain is expected this week.

Well, one person who has seen as well as documented the impact of climate change and the human toll on the planet is world famous Brazilian

photographer Sebastiao Salgado. For the past 50 years, he's made nature and the people in it the focus of his work.

His breathtaking black and white images showing some of our planet's cruelest and most beautiful moments. I sat down with him in London to find

out more about the man behind the lens.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES (voice-over): For the last 50 years, Sebastiao Salgado has photographed the world in its rawest form. Capturing its beauty and horror

with every click.

SALGADO: This part of work is my life. Sometimes I go to a show, a person comes to me, says, Sebastiao, you are an artist. I say, no, I'm not an

artist. I'm a photographer. Because to be a photographer is to have a huge privilege to be there where the things happened.

SOARES (voice-over): And Salgado has been there through it all. Exposing inequality and injustice along the way. From the famine in Ethiopia, and

the brutal conditions of gold mining in Northern Brazil in the 1980s, to the burning oil fields of Kuwait during the Gulf War in the '90s.

SOARES: There was one photography trip that made you almost quit photography. And I think it was the genocide in Rwanda.

SALGADO: Yes.

SOARES: Tell us about that moment.

SALGADO: Well, it was very hard what happened in Rwanda. It was a real genocide. I remember once I was with a group of guys from the Tutsi

guerrilla in the border of Tanzania. And they carried me with them just in the -- around the Kigali, the capital of Rwanda. It was about 180

kilometers, 200 kilometers of dead people around the road (ph). It was the most terrible thing that I ever saw.

[14:45:00]

And that -- walking there during the genocide, after the genocide, with all these refugees that came into Congo, to Tanzania, to Burundi, that affected

me deeply. That made me be very upset with my piece. I thought that we are one incredible aggressive animal and that make me in this moment abandon

photography.

SOARES (voice-over): For a moment, he lost faith in humanity. But a move to Brazil and to the farm where he grew up revived his spirit and inspired him

to pick up his camera again.

SALGADO: Recently, I was seven years nonstop in Amazonia, between 2013 to 2019. And I lived with a lot of different tribes in Amazonia. You see, it's

us, the human species (ph) that is there. There is no difference. We are the Homo sapiens. I work with few tribes in Amazonia. Some tribes that do

not eat animals that have hot blood in order not to become aggressive. Only eat animals of cold blood, as snakes, fish, tortoise.

The aggressivity came later. Came later with the religion, with the borders, with the profit, and things changed, and we are the same.

SOARES (voice-over): Throughout his career, the Brazilian lensman has stayed true to his style, documenting the world simply in black and white.

I wanted to know why.

SALGADO: You see, color was very disturbing for me. For example, you are dressed with this green vest. If I would be photographing you, I know that

at the moment that that will be the restitution of the photography. This green will be very important in the image. And that, for me, take out all

my concentration in you, in your personality, in your dignity.

And when I was photographing black and white, black and white is an abstraction. Nothing is in black and white. But your gray -- your green has

become one of the grays that are around you. And that will not disturb me.

SOARES: Do you feel that your work is part of the -- a time in history that is now dying because of social media, because of the iPhone, because of the

need to want those instant photos?

SALGADO: No, it has nothing to do. What you do with iPhone is not photography. Photography is memory. When you were a kid, your father, your

mother made a picture of you, bring to develop the film, put in an album, that is photography, because this is your memory. That's your life.

What you do with this telephone is just a language of communication with image. We send this. We send -- you don't care about this photography.

Photography is the memory of the society. And for a photographer that goes to do a story, to build a picture, it's a cross section of something very

important that happened in this moment, that this photography become the memory of this. And this social language made by image is not photography,

it's another thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SOARES (on camera): A remarkable man and a remarkable career. And Sebastiao Salgado has just been honored with the Outstanding Contribution to

Photography title at this year's Sony World Photography Awards. Very well deserved indeed.

And still to come tonight. A miracle drug for weight loss may be leaving some Americans with an unexpected side effect. The miracle of life. That's

next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:52:04]

SOARES: Welcome back, everyone.

From Oprah Winfrey to Sharon Osbourne to Amy Schumer, Ozempic and similar medicines are the weight loss drugs of choice for celebrities, as well as

millions, of course, of normal Americans. Novo Nordisk, the maker of these drugs says, at least 25,000 people are starting to take Wegovy each week in

the U.S. That's more than the capacity at Madison Square Garden.

In 2023 alone, this is context important, 1.7 percent of people in the U.S. were prescribed a drug like a Ozempic and Wegovy. And the effects are

impressive. But some of the side effects are less clear. Some women who have used a Ozempic for weight loss or diabetes say they experienced an

unexpected side effect. Pregnancy.

I want to bring in our medical correspondent, Meg Tirrell for more. So, Meg, just explain here why -- you know, why it leads to pregnancy. What's

the science behind this?

MEG TIRRELL, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: So, scientists say that this is not necessarily super surprising, particularly for people who have excess

weight and have had infertility. They know that losing five percent, 10 percent or even more of your body weight can normalize irregular menstrual

cycles, for example, whether that's because of something like PCOS, polycystic ovary syndrome, or for other reasons, and then that can lead to

it being easier to get pregnant.

Another important thing to know about these medicines is that tirzepatide based drugs, those are the Eli Lilly drugs, Zepbound and Mounjaro, they

actually have a warning in their labels. Saying that the drugs may make oral birth control pills less effective. That probably has to do with how

these medicines work. They slow the movement of food through the digestive system, and that can affect the absorption of other medicines taken by

mouth.

Now, we did talk with a young mom who took Mounjaro for about five months for weight loss. She lost 40 pounds in that period of time. She

unexpectedly got pregnant while taking the medicine after having troubles with infertility for two years. So, she was really worried, Isa, about the

effects on her baby because not much is known.

SOARES: Yes. And on that, I mean, it's so cute just looking at her and the little baby, just adorable. Some wonderful news. But on that, I mean, not

much is known. You know, when they're taking, if they get pregnant, that they -- can they continue taking Ozempic? I mean, do we know the safety

aspects of these drugs during the pregnancy, even for the fetus?

TIRRELL: Well, we don't, because like many medicines, pregnant people were excluded from the clinical trials. People who were hoping to get pregnant

were excluded from the clinical trials. So, what we have are a collection of anecdotes from the real world, and the companies and researchers are

working to collect more when this happens.

The recommendation is to stop taking these medicines if you get pregnant while on them. The human data so far have not turned up anything super

alarming, but there are some studies in animals that suggest at high doses, these drugs can be bad for the developing baby.

And so, the recommendation is to stop taking the medications two months before trying to conceive or if you find out you're pregnant, to stop

immediately.

[14:55:00]

But it is a good thing to report that that baby, Ivy (ph), is very healthy.

SOARES: Yes, it looks beautiful as well. Meg Tirrell, appreciate it. Thank you very much.

TIRRELL: Thank you.

SOARES: Now, Prince Harry has returned to the United Kingdom, but it doesn't appear he'll see his father, King Charles III. Harry arrived on

Tuesday to support his Invictus Games. His spokesperson says, "The prince understands his father is already committed to other priorities, but hopes

to see him soon." So, the king is very busy.

Harry is not expected to meet his brother, Prince William, either. The Invictus Games were founded, as you all know, 10 years ago by Harry for

wounded troops as well as veterans. A very good cause indeed.

And finally, the Olympic flame has arrived in Marseille in France for the Summer Olympic Games. It sailed from Greece on the three-masted ship. It

was welcomed by hundreds of boats with tens of thousands of people watching, just terrific. The torch relay starts on Thursday, sending the

flame on a journey to Paris in time, of course, for the opening ceremony on July 26.

That does it for tonight for this show. I'll be back in about an hour on "Quest Means Business". Do though stay right here. "Newsroom with Jim

Sciutto" is up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

END