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Isa Soares Tonight
A Passenger Plane Crashes in a Residential Area in Brazil Killing 62 onboard. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired August 09, 2024 - 14:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.
ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: We begin this hour with some breaking news coming out of Brazil. Officials from Brazil Civil Defense say a
passenger plane has crashed in a residential area outside in Sao Paulo in a city of Vinhedo. The aircraft reportedly crashed into several houses, a
residential area with 62 people on board, 58 passengers and 4 crew members.
Now, in the last few minutes or so, we have heard from President Inacio Lula da Silva, he was speaking, I want to play to you and translate for you
what he has said. If we can bring it up, and I can tell our viewers what he said.
"First, I have to be the bearer of very bad news", he says, "and I would like everyone to stand up so that we can observe a minute of silence
because a plane has just crashed in the city of Vinhedo, San Paolo, with 58 passengers and 4 crew members, and it appears that all died. I want to ask
for a minute of silence for the victims."
This is from -- we heard President Lula. With that, let me go to Mary Schiavo with this breaking news in the last few moments that we've learned
62 people on board died according to President Lula. She's a well-known face here, transportation analyst and former inspector general of the U.S.
Department of Transportation.
Mary, we've just heard directly from President Lula, who is giving a press conference on something else. I mean, this is truly shocking, and we've got
some images. Your initial thoughts as we try to make sense of what has happened here.
MARY SCHIAVO, CNN TRANSPORTATION ANALYST: Well, it's a very preliminary, but some of the images, including some video footage, if it is indeed
accurate of this particular plane crash, it does look like this plane experienced what's called a stall, literally the airflow was not sufficient
over the wings, and it fell from the sky pretty flat.
It was a flat fall from the sky. Radar indications, it was from about 17,000 feet, it was due to land fairly soon, but it does appear that it
stalled, the weather did not look particularly bad. I'm familiar with this area of Brazil, so given how the plane was falling and the situation, it
would have been very difficult for that plane to avoid houses.
And it appears that it was something called an ATR 72, so, would hold up to 72 people, but it does -- and literally fallen in a flat spin.
SOARES: What do we know about this plane, Mary?
SCHIAVO: Well, you know, the ATR, it's a smaller plane, it's been in service for many years. It's French-made plane. In the United States, it
did have a spotty history because there was a lot of difficulty with this plane operating in icing conditions.
Now, it is possible to get icing conditions in almost any kind of ground temperature. But I would suspect that it was not an icing situation there.
Although, it is possible, but this aircraft, particularly what was called the ATR 42, a smaller version of this aircraft did have icing problems that
is not used in the United States anymore, it is used in the Caribbean a lot, it's a popular plane because it's a small short-haul plane.
And I believe that was this kind of flight. It was -- it was a domestic flight and was carrying people domestically in Brazil --
SOARES: Yes --
SCHIAVO: Not an international flight.
SOARES: That's right. From what I understand, it was a domestic flight, but we heard -- you heard --
SCHIAVO: Right --
SOARES: That clip of Lula saying it appears they're all dead. We haven't heard that. I think it's important --
SCHIAVO: Right --
SOARES: To say from the airline, something like this -- would anyone as we wait to hear from the airline itself, could anyone survive if it's fallen
in this residential area in outskirts of Sao Paulo?
SCHIAVO: Well, not on the plane. If the video that is circulating right now is accurate, it literally was in a kind of a flat partial spin, which
means it had to lose its lift at 17,000 feet, and that is not a survivable fall.
[14:05:00]
I'm sorry to say. So persons on the plane did not -- you know, would not have had much of a chance at all.
SOARES: Yes, 62 souls -- stay with us. Mary, let me go to Julia Vargas Jones, who is covering this for us. Julia, I know you're making contacts,
you're reaching out. What do you understand? What are you hearing?
JULIA VARGAS JONES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that video, Isa, that we're looking at right now, that's from Natalie Zakaria(ph), I just spoke to her.
She said she was having lunch in her apartment, that's her kitchen, that's going out into her balcony, and she just held-in(ph), and started seeing
the airplane going down, that is her next door neighbor.
She told me that she was so terrified she just ducked and started praying. She says that she feels she's most -- the luckiest woman in the world that,
that didn't hit her. She heard from people in the neighborhood that her neighbor also wasn't home, but it's just a moment of panic in the city.
She called me, she was still breathing heavily, you know, in a safe place. Now, police and first responders are all over the area, but it was just
such a huge shock in the residential area. They definitely weren't expecting that. She said, you know, that was once in a life-time thing you
don't expect, but that she will for sure just pray for all of those families and have them in their thoughts.
It is certainly something that gives you some pause, she said for the next time, in fact, she said she wouldn't be scared of flying again, but it is a
shock for sure. She said she had to gather her animals, her dogs and cats from outside and bring inside. They were cleared. Go ahead.
SOARES: No, I was going to say, Julia, I mean, given that you've just got off the phone with her, have you got a sense from her whether there's a
team on the ground already, whether there's ambulance. What is she telling you in some of the operation around her?
JONES: Firefighters, ambulance, all kinds of first responders are in the area, that's in lockdown, that's where she lives, this building that we're
looking at right now, Isa, this is a condominium, so this is a closed-off property with different homes. So, it's a private road. She said she can't
go home because all of those private roads are closed off to even to residents at this point.
She can't even go and get her belongings for now, because first responders are in the area, so, that's mostly firefighters --
SOARES: Yes --
JONES: And ambulances. But as you mentioned earlier from President Lula, it doesn't seem like any of the people in that plane survived, any of the
68 passengers and the 4 members of the crew.
SOARES: Yes, he does said -- he did say, we played that for our viewers to listen here. It appears that all on board have died. We don't know. We know
-- and I was speaking to Mary about this, we know that they are -- this was a domestic flight, but we don't know as of yet have the nationalities of
those. Is that correct?
JONES: Yes, we don't have the kind of information yet, Isa, and we haven't heard more from the company. We do have a statement from the company that
was put out very briefly after that, said that you know, in that region of Vinhedo, that's the name of the city in the state of Sao Paulo, that the
aircraft took from Cascavel. That's one state over just south of the state of Sao Paulo, bound for Guarulhos Airport; the largest airport in --
SOARES: Yes --
JONES: Brazil, that is the main hub, and that we had 58 passengers and 4 crew members. They said that they used all the means to support the people
involved, but there's still no confirmation of how that accident occurred and the situation of the people on board. That's what they're saying.
Of course, we heard later from President Luiz that we had different information, I'm sure we'll get more in the coming hours, Isa --
SOARES: Indeed, and of course, for our viewers who are joining, this is a breaking news story in the last few minutes, so then understand, we are
gathering all the information we can. But before I let you go, and you do the news gathering, Julia.
In terms of domestic flight, where was it coming? We know it was going to Sao Paulo. Where was it coming from, roughly the duration of the flight? Do
you know that?
JONES: So, Cascavel is not too far, I don't know the exact duration of this flight --
SOARES: Yes --
JONES: But again, it's just one state over. You know, you're going -- not -- it shouldn't be a fight that would take multiple hours, but I can't tell
you exactly, Isa, I'm sure our experts will be able to give that information soon.
SOARES: Yes --
JONES: It is -- again, it's sure -- and this seems like the kind of flight that happens in a hundreds of times a day --
SOARES: Exactly --
JONES: In Brazil.
SOARES: Exactly, that's why I was asking you, stay with us. Let me go to Mary, and Mary, this was -- this was why I was asking Julia Vargas Jones
that question because I would assume this would be a flight that's probably taken, you know -- I don't know how many times between states in Sao Paulo,
I mean, across Brazil, right?
SCHIAVO: Right, it was booked for about an hour-and-a-half, and literally, it was about -- I think about eight minutes before landing.
[14:10:00]
So, we would have already banned, you know, in the descent, getting set up for landing as it was headed into a big airport. And you know, you can have
a stall for many reasons. You can have it for icing, well, as I said, probably isn't the condition here. You can have it --
SOARES: Yes --
SCHIAVO: Because your speed has deteriorated for some reason, you are losing -- you've lost your speed and your airflow over your wings. And of
course, the pilots have to react to that. But all airlines train their pilots to react to a stall, there are stall warnings in the cockpit, you
know, loud blaring horns that go off when you're experiencing this.
So, there are lots of reasons that it could fall from the sky like this. But it does look like a classic stall. Recoverable if the pilots were on
top of it, and you know, have the ability to get the speed up and the nose down. So, it's a recoverable situation in most cases, but clearly, it was
not recovered here.
SOARES: And a stall, Mary, just for -- in kind of layman's terms for us. I mean, how common, how often does it happen in planes like this, in flights
that are done commercially, quite often I assume daily almost?
SCHIAVO: No, you know, because you're trained as a pilot, and that's one of the first things you're trained from day one when you start your flying
training about how to respond to a stall, what happens if you do get in a stall situation, how to react, what to do?
And so often, it's because of something that you cannot control as a pilot -- there had been cases in the past, not this one, because we don't know
what this one was caused by. But in the past, for example, where flights even at high altitudes entered a stall because they had weather, they had
dimsey, had something and the pilots did not react fast enough.
They did not work to recover the plane, et cetera. Sometimes that happens even at high altitudes, even though you'd have a lot of altitude and time
to recover, and it all depends upon the reaction of the pilots, what they've been trained to do, et cetera.
But that's in other cases. That's not this one, because we don't know yet exactly what happened. But when you lose that airflow over your wings and
you don't respond to that quickly, and I've said, it could be just -- due to a decrease in your speed, then you can get into a stall.
And that's why that starts almost from day one and your pilot training is how to recover from that.
SOARES: All right, for viewers, Mary, do stay with us. For viewers who are just joining us, let me just bring you up-to-date with what we have learnt
in the last kind of 12 minutes or so. Breaking news we'll be bringing you out of Brazil. Officials from Brazil's Civil Defense say a passenger plane
has crashed in a residential area.
The footage you're looking now is from one of the residents in those buildings that our producer, our reporter, Julia Vargas Jones, who just got
off the phone to -- that was her balcony. This happened in an area just outside Sao Paulo, a residential area called Vinhedo.
Now, in the last ten minutes or so, we've heard from President Lula of Brazil, who was at a conference, then took to the stage and made the video.
You're looking at there, I'll tell you what he said. "First, I have to be the bearer of very bad news. I would like everyone to stand up so that we
can observe a minute of silence because a plane has just crashed in the city of Vinhedo in Sao Paulo with 58 passengers and 4 crew members.
And it appears", he said, "they all died. I want to ask for a minute of silence for the victims." So, that is coming from President Lula of Brazil.
We have not heard from the airline on this. We are waiting, of course, we are pushing, we're making the contacts. In the meantime, Mary Schiavo joins
me now.
And Mary, it's -- you know, when you look at this video, and we heard from Julia and we had a statement, of course, from President Lula. What
questions do you have arising? What questions -- or is that -- is this to you? Obviously, investigation, we'll have more from the black box. But what
questions do you have at this moment?
SCHIAVO: Well, certainly, you'd want to know, you know, the -- you know, the pilot training, who was flying? Presumably, of course, two well-trained
pilots. You'd want to know the history of this aircraft. Was this aircraft just out of maintenance? A lot of times you have problems in the first
flight out of maintenance.
What was the weather? Is there --
SOARES: Yes --
SCHIAVO: Any possibility? And to do that, was there any possibility they encountered? Icing -- why did this -- why did the speed if it did
deteriorate, and it was -- and probably the most important thing is, did they have time to get a Mayday call? Because this close to landing, and I
think there were about eight minutes out, they would have been in contact with air traffic control or they would have been in contact with their
company.
Usually, they're landing to get ready for the ground operations. So, there should have been a lot of --
SOARES: Yes --
SCHIAVO: Communications going on, and those communications will give us a great deal of clues.
[14:15:00]
SOARES: And just for our viewers who are just joining us, Mary, and bringing them up to speed. What do we know about this plane? How common is
this playing? How often do we -- do we see it flying across Brazil and other countries as well?
SCHIAVO: Well, the preliminary information and what I see in the videos is, it does look like a plane that's called an ATR. French-manufactured
plane. They make another one in ATR, I think it's a 42. The --
SOARES: Yes --
SCHIAVO: Seventy two refers to what the number of people that can carry in the United States is not used so much anymore because it had problems in
its state with icing. But it's been around for a very long time, and it's a workhorse of short haul routes as this was.
SOARES: And so, you know, I'm looking at my phone because I was trying to track down the statement from the company, from Voepass Airlines talking
about an accident this Friday, August the 9th, in the region of Vinhedo in Sao Paulo. The aircraft took off from Cascavel, bound for Guarulhos Airport
with 58 passengers and four crew on board.
And then, it just goes on to say, Voepass used all means to support those involved. They still haven't updated their information, so there's still no
confirmation of how the accident occurred or the current situation of the people on board, and that it does offer information for members, for family
members who may want to call.
So, Mary, I mean, in terms of, you know, the pilot, this is part, you remember you telling me just a few minutes ago, this is part of every
pilot's training, right? How do you react to that? How easy -- talk us through that. How easy, how normal would it be and what other elements
could then -- because are you -- what elements can impact human error here?
SCHIAVO: Yes, well, first of all, with the stall, it can happen at any altitude, it can happen --
SOARES: Yes --
SCHIAVO: With any plane. People might remember or maybe ten or so years ago, a giant Airbus flying from Brazil to Europe --
SOARES: Yes --
SCHIAVO: Encountered weather conditions and the speed deteriorated. It stalled and it crashed into the ocean. So, great big plane like that, you
know, obviously several pilots and relief crew on board, and they did not in the end -- the opinion was that they did not react fast enough and the
aircraft stalled.
But they will be able to find that out. That will be something that will be captured on the flight data recorders, and if there were communications and
there were discussion in the cockpit, it will be captured on the cockpit voice recorder. Obviously, weather is going to be important to look at the
weather.
They will be looking at the maintenance of this plane. And there's one thing, you know, to note about Brazil. I mean, I've worked other cases
concerning Brazilian planes and Brazilian crashes. They're obviously a major aviation nation, they're used to doing aviation investigations.
They have investigation go teams. Much like that. You know, the other major aviation nations' investigative team. So, they will get -- you know, they
will get this solved rather quickly if indeed it was a stall. Now, the question is going to be how quickly they can get those black boxes and get
those black boxes analyzed.
The parties to the investigation will obviously include the French as well, because an ATR is a French-made plane, although this one could be very old.
They have been around for a very long time, on top of my head, maybe 40 years, 50 years, these kinds of planes.
So, they will have a lot of information at their -- you know, fingertips as soon as they get those black boxes and the records on this plane. And take
another look at the weather, the radar tape show it falling from about 17,000 feet, it was probably much higher than that during its crews, from
its origin to its destination en route, I mean.
But it was clearly, probably getting set up for a landing and most likely, in other crashes, not this one because we don't know yet, but the speed
have deteriorated to the point where the plane fell as it did in this sort of a flat-falling motion, kind of like a leaf. In aviation --
SOARES: Yes --
SCHIAVO: We actually describe it falling leaf.
SOARES: Yes, and we are working to try and get that video to viewers, and just while you're talking, Mary, the video that we are showing is from one
of the -- the lady in that apartment, in fact, that Julia Vargas Jones was just speaking to, that is her balcony. She was having lunch there in
Vinhedo.
And you can see now on our map really where it was going from Cascavel there to Sao Paulo. So, it was not a long distance to go, but it is a
residential -- a residential area. And there was what you were talking about, the leaf element of it. It's almost like a spin, is it not, Mary,
that it seems --
SCHIAVO: Right --
SOARES: The drop is quite significant.
[14:20:00]
SCHIAVO: That's right. It drops like, as I said --
SOARES: Yes --
SCHIAVO: Like a falling leaf fit. It kind of falls. It wasn't -- you know --
SOARES: Yes --
SCHIAVO: Rolling, for example, it wasn't on his back or anything. But when you lose lift over those wings, that's how it can fall. Now, sometimes it
will fall, it will do what's called nosing over, and it will -- you know, the nose will turn over and go down, but sometimes it literally spins down
like a leaf.
SOARES: Yes, probably be spinning out of control like you're saying. And then as -- we have new video, my producer is talking to me. Let's just have
a look at this, Mary, let's play it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(AEROPLANE HUMMING)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: And Mary, I think that pretty much speaks to what you were talking about in the last few seconds. Does it not? That's what you -- that's what
you --
SCHIAVO: Yes --
SOARES: Expected, yes.
SCHIAVO: Right, and you know, and obviously, I mean, you know, Sao Paulo, it's hard to -- it's hard to exaggerate how big the city is and how
sprawling it is. So, again, without the -- so, the way that thing was falling, pilots do not have control of that aircraft at that point.
Because once it stalls, you lose the ability to control. It's very difficult to pull out of a fall like that. And so, they would not have had
the ability to steer it away from houses, to steer it away from populated areas, because Sao Paulo is so big, and it --
SOARES: Yes --
SCHIAVO: Extends, you know, miles and miles and miles across the country sides. So, I don't think the pilots would have had any opportunity to try
to control it away from life on the ground.
SOARES: Stay with us, Mary, I want to go to Julia Vargas Jones, who has been news-gathering for us, making important calls. Julia, the video that
we're looking at, it's from the lady you were speaking to, that's her balcony. What else are you hearing? What else are you hearing from
officials from the airline, from the government?
JONES: Yes, Isa, not a lot yet, but we are -- you know, we're hearing from Voepass, slightly more details on what happened here, a little bit more of
clarity. I want to read to you as well a statement from them where they said that they are working with the victims of this to support everyone who
was involved.
We're still not getting through. There is a hotline for families to call in, get aid at this point. Many people are trying to call and not actually
getting -- of course, I imagine, this is a very difficult moment for this company to be able to -- it's a small company, it's on one of the largest -
- larger companies in Brazilian Airlines.
And as I said, this is a very populated area. It's a town, but this isn't the countryside of Sao Paulo, right? So, it's not too far from Sao Paulo,
we heard from our experts there, so about an hour-and-a-half flight. And President Lula when he made those remarks a little bit earlier, we saw he
also wasn't too far from there.
He's a couple of states down in Santa Catarina in a separate event. But I wouldn't be surprised to hear more from him in the coming hours as this
continues to develop, you know, as is -- he does like to go and visit these places. I would --
SOARES: Yes --
JONES: Stay tuned for that to see if we will see more from the President. This is, I think a little bit of a throwback. I remember the Scheppacho
NC(ph), a tragedy that was, I believe quite a few years ago, 6-7 years ago, perhaps. But we saw huge response from Brazilian people as well then.
That was in my home state in a little bit farther south. This is also an area that has a lot of mountains that I think you can see a little bit of
that --
SOARES: Yes --
JONES: In this video, and perhaps in some of the other videos that we're just getting in now too. But it does tell you just from the level of
response to what we're seeing on social media, where we're hearing from people in the region, there will be an outpouring of support for this
community.
And Brazilians are quite religious people, spiritual people, people are praying for the victims, they're praying for this community that's still in
lockdown as first responders are just sweeping the area and looking for any potential survivors.
SOARES: Yes, and I'll get to that in just a moment. In terms of rescue operation, just for our viewers who are joining us. Let me -- stay with us,
Julia. Let me bring them up-to-date with what we have heard in the last 23 minutes or so. Breaking news coming out of Brazil, official from Brazil
Civil Defense say a passenger plane has crashed in a residential area in the city of Vinhedo, was making its way to Sao Paulo as you heard from
Julia Vargas Jones there.
It's about an hour-and-a-half flight. Voepass, the airline hasn't given us much more other than the flight, but I want to play this video, which is
something that Mary Schiavo and I were looking at. Not this video, but the one of the plane actually falling. Have a look at this, just listen.
[14:25:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(AEROPLANE HUMMING)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: And Mary, stay with us, Jul -- Mary, if you're still with us, for viewers who are just joining us, just explain, obviously, we do not know at
this stage, it's very early stages, of course. But what could have been behind that from looking just simply at that video? And I understand it's
very short.
SCHIAVO: Right. From looking at that video and based on other crashes, not this one, other accidents that I've worked on. It does look like the plane
had entered what's called an aerodynamic stall, which means for -- and it can be for a variety of reasons, but there's not enough airflow over the
wings to keep it in its, you know, in its flight and keep its momentum going, that could be caused by many things.
You know, in many other crashes, it's caused by icing, caused by pilots allowing the airspeed to deteriorate and not staying on top of the plane.
It's usually not because of an engine failure because the pilots notice that, they recognize that. In that kind of a situation, the pilots would
not have been able to control the aircraft most likely, it was to the point of, you know, falling to the earth where you could not recover from that if
it was a stall.
And so, they would not have been able to steer it away --
SOARES: Yes --
SCHIAVO: From houses or people or populated areas. And as an ATR plane, it's French-manufactured plane, this is a 72 model. It could have held up
to 72 people on board, not all the seats were full. They have another model, the ATR 42, and it lost popularity in the states because it had a
problem in icing.
And of course, in the United States, Winters, you get a lot of icing, but you can get icing at any time of the year depending upon, you know, the
weather and the weather conditions. So, those are usually the typical causes of a stall. It could also be caused by other problems, mechanical
problems, et cetera.
But the flight had already gone on for about an hour --
SOARES: Yes --
SCHIAVO: So, those problems, you know, might have already appeared and it would have been making its way to the airport and in its landing sequence.
SOARES: And interesting as you were talking about the icing aspect of this, just my producer sending me this information just from the weather in
the area itself. And this is from the National Institute of Metrology in Brazil, saying orange alert, temperature decline, this is -- this as of
an hour ago.
In Met -- I want to try and translate here, in Met, which is the institute warning as of this -- of this time, risk to health, major decline to 5
degrees centigrade. So, we'll have to ask for more information on that, but that perhaps may speak to what you were talking about, that aerodynamic
stall or what may have caused this. We're going to take a short break, Mary, I appreciate you being with us. Stay right here, Julia Vargas Jones
is also with us, we'll see you in just a moment for more on this breaking news story.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ISA SOARES, CNN ANCHOR: If you're just joining us, let me bring you up to date with breaking news that we've been following for the last 30 minutes
right now coming out of Brazil. Now, officials from Brazil's civil defense say a passenger plane crashed in a residential area outside of Sao Paulo in
a city called -- in an area called Vinhedo. The plane was going -- it's Voepass ATR 72 traveling to Sao Paulo. So, about an hour and a half flight
or so.
Inside, 62 people on board, 58 passengers and four crew members. About 20 minutes ago or so, we heard from President Lula of Brazil who was not very
far from here at an event. And this is what he said. He confirmed -- I'm going to try and get you -- I heard it live. Let me try and get you what he
said in Portuguese so I can tell you it to us.
He said -- pardon me. Give me a second. He confirmed basically the terrible news that it appears that all passengers had died. First, I have to be the
bearer of very bad news, he said. And I would like everyone to stand up so that we can observe a minute of silence because a plane has just crashed in
the city of Vinhedo, Sao Paulo with four 58 passengers and four crew members and appears they all died. I want to ask for a minute of silence
from the -- for the victims.
This is --this was what we heard from President Lula. In the last few minutes, in fact, we have heard from -- if I can get it as well -- we have
heard from the -- from the city of Vinhedo. Let me try and get it. Sorry, this is very fast-moving, so I'm trying to keep up with all the
developments. And they have confirmed -- the city of Valinhos basically saying that informs that Flight 2283 of Voepass, no one has survived. So,
apologies so for -- this is just me translating from the Portuguese -- informing that Flight 2283 Voepass flight, no one has survived.
So, now we've heard from the region of Valinhos and we've also heard from President Lula. I want to show you the video. This is the video, not this
one. I want to show you this video. Have a look at this. And just bear in mind, of course, these 62 souls on board as we look at that video. 58
passengers, four crew members -- receiving the most devastating news for those families that their loved ones have died.
We saw -- if we can -- I don't want to play it in fact too often but you saw the plane dropping and spiraling from the sky. Let's get -- do we have
Mary with us? I want to go to Mary Schiavo. Mary joins me now.
And Mary, so now we've heard from the city of Valinhos confirming that, speaking to CNN Brazil. We've heard also from President Lula. What -- just
for viewers who are just joining us this hour, what do you think would be - - would be behind this, could have caused it? You were talking to me earlier about an aerodynamic stall. And when you and I were talking, you
were talking about almost like a leaf-like effect where it spins. It does look like it does spin out of control. Speak to that Mary.
MARY SCHIAVO, CNN TRANSPORTATION ANALYST: Right. Well, and this is based on just these few video clips that are available, one in particular where it
does show the plane falling and then also checking at what altitude it was at and where it was in his flight, it does look like what's called an
aerodynamic stall, which means for whatever reason, the air speed and more particularly the wind moving over your wings is not sufficient to keep the
plane in the air.
[14:35:07]
Now, pilots are trained to recover from this if you have this. If you have time and you have altitude, pilots are trained to recover from this.
Literally from day one in our flight training, we learn about this. But -- so, there could be many reasons why you can't. For example, one of the most
common reasons that planes enter a stall is icing or weather conditions. And it's impossible to know at this point if that's what happened.
But again, pilots are trained to either, you know, climb out of that weather or descend. But at this point, where they were in the flight, they
would have been setting up for their landing in Sao Paulo. So, they would have been under air traffic control. All planes going into there are under
Air Traffic Control. It's a very big airport, very metropolitan.
And then, of course, it can be caused by other reasons. I've worked air accidents in the past where flights at 24,000 feet, at 40 air at 35,000
feet have encountered it. And they had time to recover but it depends upon the pilots recognizing that they're in a stall situation. And there are
stall warnings in the cockpit. There's a horn that goes off. Some planes have a verbal warning.
And you are trained to recover from this, so obviously investigators will be looking at why this occurred and why they could not recover. You know,
I've actually been on flights that have experienced icing and sometimes it comes very fast. It looks almost like -- almost like lace on your wings.
And if you can imagine that, that busts up the airflow. And you have to have airflow over those wings.
Well, the ATR has been under criticism and that's why it's not very popular plane in the United States anymore because obviously in the States we get a
lot of icing in the Winter especially of course, but it can happen at any time of year. And so, those planes have largely been moved out of U.S.
domestic service. They're still used in the Caribbean and other places. But icing can be a problem with this kind of plane.
SOARES: And as you're talking, I'm just you know -- of course, in Sao Paulo in Brazil right now, it's Autumn going on Winter, but the temperatures are
not looking too bad of course. But we don't know in that particular region and that altitude. But very quickly from what you're saying, Mary, when it
starts -- not just the stall, when it starts dropping and it starts twisting, of course, like you saying like the leaf, how easy -- if we can
bring the video up -- just get my producer to bring it up. When it starts spinning out of control, Mary, and we're seeing it now, how easy is it for
pilots? I know you say pilots a train from day one in this. How easy is it to recover from that to pick up the plane.
SCHIAVO: Yes, pilots are trained -- it's very difficult. At that point where we see it in the video, it is impossible because part of your
training is to react, you know, responsibly quickly and aggressively. If you are entering in a stall situation, there are things you must do. You
know the basic instinct is you put your nose down, you get the speed up, you recover from that stall.
And the planes kind of want to do that themselves, by the way, but your train -- part of your training is to react. You cannot wait too long or
perhaps you're, you know, impeded by other problems. There could have been other problems they experienced. I'm not saying that they didn't -- you
know, they didn't try to recover because we don't know that yet. But you're trained to -- when this happens, you have to react and you have to react
quickly and properly and get that under control because at that point in the flight where that we see the picture, the pilots had no control over
that plane. It would have been impossible possible to get any kind of control at that point.
SOARES: So many questions that we still have this hour. This is a breaking news story. We've been following it for the last 38 minutes. Our
journalists, our news gathering, we're trying to get you the very latest of course. Just a reminder, as we look at those images, that there were 62
people on board, 62 souls, 58 passengers, full crew members traveling to Sao Paulo. We are going to take a short break. I'll be back in just a few
minutes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:41:48]
SOARES: If you're just joining us, let me bring you up to date on the breaking news that we've been following here on the show. Officials from
Brazil civil defense say a passenger plane has crashed in a residential outs -- area outside of Sao Paulo, in the city of Vinhedo. You're looking
at footage here from a balcony. A lady was just having lunch and she saw that plane drop.
What we know about the plane is ATR 72. We in fact got new video to bring in. Let's have a look at it. That is the video that we see of that plane
dropping. Now, what we know from the president, President Lula, as we look at this video, of course, just remember, important to bear in mind the
people on board here, the lives lost, the lives claimed here. President Lula saying in the last 10 minutes that 58 passengers and four crew members
appear to have died.
And this new video, I'm looking at it for the first time like you are of the wreckage, it -- this is a residential area. We heard there are some
mountain aspects of it as well, but mostly residential area. This is where it's crashed. We have been speaking to Mary Schiavo. She's been talking
about aero -- being potentially an aerodynamic stall on this. But 58 passengers, four crew members appear to have been killed. We're hearing the
same thing from the city hall of Valinhos saying that 62 people have died.
So, let's go to CNN's Aviation Analyst Peter Goelz who is the former managing director of the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board for the
very latest. And Peter, I understand we're very limited on information. We are still going through all these videos, bringing them to our viewers'
attention. Just from what you can see, what do you think has happened here with this Voepass ATR 72 plane?
PETER GOELZ, CNN AVIATION ANALYST: Well, you know, the films are very shocking. And I think Mary is correct. The plane appears to be in an
aerodynamic stall perhaps just after takeoff. Now, why it went into that stall will not be re revealed until investigators get their hands on the
flight data recorder and on the cockpit voice recorder. That was a pretty violent crash but the recorder should survive the impact. And that will
eventually tell the story.
The ATR 72 has been around for 35 years. It's got kind of a checkered past. There was an accident a year ago in Nepal that killed 72 people. This
investigation will be conducted under the IKO Treaty and Brazil will play the major role in investigating it.
SOARES: And let me just play as you stay with us, Peter, this new video that we have. My producer -- you can see the plane dropping and Mary was
talking about like an almost leaf effect as it spiraled. So, you agree with her that this potentially is an aerodynamic stall, but Mary I remember her
telling me that pilots are trained on this from day one, Peter. So, how do you make sense of not just not being able to recover from this? What other
-- what else could influence this, could impact this, could have caused this?
[14:45:25]
GOELZ: Well, I mean, we don't know if there was any kind of mid-air collision, whether there was an engine failure. We just don't have enough
facts. But what we do know from that brief tragic clip is that the plane was out of control and that the pilots did not have enough altitude to
recover even if they could have. But it was in a very perilous --
SOARES: And as -- go ahead, Peter. Go ahead.
GOELZ: It was in a very perilous state and the -- but how it got there will be the job of the investigators to figure out.
SOARES: And Peter, just before I bring in David Soucie, very quickly, if I play -- I don't know if you can see the video. I want to show viewers the
video. Sarah can you play that of the wreckage, if I could call it that? I think it is a wreckage video from what I could see in my shot. And of
course, a reminder to everyone, we're talking about 62 souls that were on board.
When you look at this, we know it's a residential area just outside of Sao Paulo, I can see some sort of hills, some green area. What can you observe
from this, Peter?
GOELZ: Well, you can't -- you can't tell very much. I mean the plane landed. Some parts of the fuselage, you know, are still intact but it was
unlikely that there are any survivors. And the investigators, the best thing that they can do is recover the data recorder, the voice recorder,
check with the -- with the control tower to see if they declared an emergency and whether they gave any indication of what was going on.
SOARES: Stay with us. Let me bring in -- Peter, let me bring in David Soucie. He's a former safety inspector for the Federal Aviation
Administration. So, David, I mean, we've just been talking to our viewers, showing the viewers the latest videos that we've got coming in. What is
your understanding? What do you think caused this first of all? Mary and Peter were talking about an aerodynamic stall. What do you think?
DAVID SOUCIE, CNN SAFETY ANALYST: I certainly agree with them on this one. The thing that I might add to that is in the video, you can hear in the
audio that it's a power on stall. It's not -- you know, Peter had mentioned rightfully so that it could have been related to an engine failure. We just
don't know. We have no idea at this point. But I think that you can hear both engines out of sync, and you can hear them -- what we say popping
which would indicate some kind of cavitation. Meaning, that they were at full power with low speed. And so, that could possibly offer some clues as
to what happened.
As Peter said, there's no way to know what actually caused it to enter this, but once it's in a power on stall, you have to have a lot of altitude
to recover that to be able to get enough air speed over the wings to pull yourself out of that deadly spiral where the aircraft is just flat
spinning.
SOARES: And David, stay with us. Peter, do stay with us too because Mary and I were talking earlier about the possibility that maybe weather, icy
weather conditions could have played a part here. Chad Myers, CNN Meteorologist joins me now from one the conditions on the ground. What were
conditions like, Chad? Do we know at this stage?
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: The conditions on the ground were absolutely fine. This is not a low-level issue. This was a 14,000 ft issue. And David,
I've been looking at the soundings here. This plane flew through 100 percent relative humidity at below-freezing temperatures almost its entire
flight before it started to come down.
Could there have been -- maybe the icing, deicing things were not working. Could this have been kind of a rime ice situation? When the plane got to --
it was about 202 knots and literally 45 seconds later it was only doing forward speed of about 40 knots. So, this was an instantaneous event that
happened up there. Could icing have done that?
SOUCIE: Oh, most certainly. And again, like you said, the ground can look fine, but when you're in the air at 100 percent humidity and below freezing
-- this aircraft has a history of some icing issues especially with the deice systems that are on it. So, it does have some history of that
happening and fatal accidents before in the U.S. So, that would be one of the first places I would look as an investigator.
SOARES: Can I just jump in here? Can I just jump in here, David, as well on that given that -- and I know that there's been criticism, it has a checked
past, but this would be -- and I would assume, I would guess this plane would be doing daily flights to -- across Brazil. So, this -- the pilots
are also trained on this from day one. So, what else besides an aerodynamic stall? Could this be a human error? What else can you detect from this --
dissect from this, pardon me.
[14:50:22]
SOUCIE: Well, the way what I would look at first is the deicing system versus the anti-icing system. So, anti-icing means that you know that
you're flying into icing and that you're going to put some effort into making sure that the ice doesn't build up. But like Chad had mentioned, the
rime ice can build up on top of that, so we have to watch for that.
So, then you call -- you go into -- then you come into a deicing situation which is where the ice is already there and you have to let it build up
enough where the deice can break that ice and bring it away. So, there's some processes here. It's not just simply you turn on the anti-ice and
forget about it. That's not how it works. You have to read the ice. You have to be able to see it and understand it. And that in -- therein lies
the problem with icing and how you react to it and what you do for it.
So, it certainly could be a failure of that anti-ice system or it could be an operational error of how they responded to it. It's not something that
they deal with every day. Even though they're flying through that every day, they may not have those conditions that Chad was showing us a minute
ago every day.
SOARES: Go ahead, Chad. You wanted to add something, Chad?
MYERS: No, I'm just -- exactly the observation here. This type of event, this type of cloud cover event, the 100 percent relative humidity at 14,000
ft for almost the entire path from into Sao Paulo. This didn't take off and crash this. Actually was in the air and was coming down into the landing
facility here in Sao Paulo, into the airport. And it was up there below freezing the entire time it was up at 14, 15,000 feet, and the relative
humidity was 100 percent.
And you can see it on Mount Washington when it's not even snowing but the entire building of Mount Washington, the weather station up there, it gets
completely covered in ice. You can see it on top of radio towers and the ice will fall off sometimes because of this rime ice. And this is the first
place I'm going to look because the things on the ground, everything on the ground was completely fine. This happened at altitude. This happened at
14,000 feet.
SOARES: And Mary, apologies for my ignorance here, but do we know -- Chad, do stay with us. Do we know how --I know you telling me there's been
criticism over the ATR 72, there's been a check at past. I assume there'd be more planes flying over this area. Do we know how many of these planes
are being used with Voepass? Do we have a sense of the numbers here?
SCHIAVO: Yes, I don't have that number of how many of these particular planes are being used, but like I said, although they're not in the
domestic use, they are very much used in other parts in the Caribbean and other places. And again, the important thing is the deice system, if the
pilots -- you know, I'm sure they were trained to respond and do it. But again, it does have to work but you have to get it on fast enough.
And your systems -- another criticism of this plane is that the systems were not robust enough and they have, you know, the limited areas of the
wing and particularly the tail -- remember the tail is vulnerable to icing too. And the criticism was is that there were not enough surfaces -- they
weren't big enough. In other words, the deicing equipment was not sufficient for the plane, was some of the criticisms in the past.
Now, after other accidents, modifications did have to be made. And of course, it depends on the various countries on the country's own
requirements aviation regulations, federal aviation regulations and requirements for their aircraft as to what they did require. But I do not
have the exact number of how many of these planes are flying in Brazil. I'm sorry.
SOARES: No, not at all. I didn't expect you to have it on top of your -- of your head of course. But I just -- I just wondered because given what Chad
is showing us, right, the temperatures, the weather, and how frequent perhaps some of these flights are, I just wondered whether -- and I don't
know -- at this stage I haven't even looked at flight radar to see how has that area other planes been diverted, has anyone -- any other planes been
affected because as of right now, we're not getting that clarity or that raw dated in fact from flight radar or anyone else.
SCHIAVO: Well, the important thing to note is it's also different plane by plane.
SOARES: Yes.
SCHIAVO: So, other planes might have had different anti-ice and deicing systems. And as I said, I was -- you know, I was on a flight -- in a flight
once where we had this very problem. And the ice can build up very quickly. You can be doing just fine and depending upon what -- and it was on coming
in for landing. And depending upon where you are in the flight, all of a sudden you can have this buildup on your wings and it's really startling. I
mean, I have to tell you.
[14:55:09]
And the systems, and this was a pretty new plane that we were operating, the system couldn't handle it. It came on the plane that quickly. We were
very fortunate we were close to the airport. We got down in time. And when I got out -- I went out and did the walk around of the plane, and literally
I could lift this ice off and it looked like frozen lace. It was very startling, very scary I might add. But sometimes the planes simply cannot
handle the level of icing. And then your only choice is to climb out of it or descend out of it. And that depends on if you've got time to do that.
And at this point in the flight, given they were coming into land, they might have run out of time and altitude. Altitude is your friend in this
situation.
SOARES: I appreciate you being all with us. Do stay with us for the breaking news. We are going to take a short break. But if you're just
joining us, horrific news out of Brazil. President Lula saying in the last 40 minutes or so that 62 people have died in the city of Vinhedo just
outside of Brazil, 58 passengers and four crew members. We will stay on top of this breaking news for you. We are going to take a short break. We'll
have much more after this.
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END
