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Isa Soares Tonight
Zelenskyy Reshuffles Cabinet; Trump Says Elon Musk Has Agreed To Lead Proposed Government Efficiency Commission; Ugandan Olympic Athlete Killed After A Brutal Attack By Boyfriend; Netanyahu Says A Ceasefire Deal Is Not Close; "In the Shadows" By Mickey Bergman; New Details On Georgia School Shooter; Pope Francis In Indonesia. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired September 05, 2024 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
ISA SOARES, HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: A very warm welcome to the show, everyone, I'm Isa Soares. Tonight, as Ukraine's President looks to
revitalize his war efforts with a new cabinet, we hear from Ukraine's army chief in a new as well as an exclusive interview.
Plus, former U.S. President Donald Trump says he has a job for Elon Musk if elected in November. The candidate revealing his economic plans as he faces
new legal action. And a Ugandan Olympic athlete killed after a brutal attack by her boyfriend. We'll find out why violence against female
athletes is becoming all too common in Africa.
But first tonight, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy says he's bringing new energy to his cabinet, but the political reshuffle and the
timing, of course, of this, has taken many by surprise. Andrii Sybiha was confirmed by parliament and sworn in earlier today, he replaces former
Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba, considered to be of course, a political insider.
Sybiha is a career diplomat and was also deputy head of the presidential office. Now, this may be an unexpected move by President Zelenskyy to
bolster support when he visits the U.S. this month. He'll be presenting his so-called victory plan. Now, the appointment comes as fighting rages on the
eastern front and in Russia's Kursk region, as you can see there, those are key strategic areas for both sides.
But Russian President Vladimir Putin calls the eastern offensive his military's first priority goal. Well, our chief international anchor
Christiane Amanpour spoke with Ukraine's commander-in-chief, it's his first television interview since becoming military chief in February. Here's a
little snippet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: How can somebody like you boost morale and make people still want to fight because that -- we
feel, we hear that, that moment of patriotic fervor that was so obvious at the beginning of the invasion seems to be cooling down.
OLEKSANDR SYRSKYI, COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF, UKRAINE (through translator): You're right on this point, the issue of morale is a very important area of our
work. Of course, talking about the Kursk operation, we should note this is what has significantly improved the morale of not only the military, but
the entire Ukrainian population.
It was and still is an incentive that has boosted the morale of our servicemen, their thirst for victory.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Well, the full interview is airing on Friday on "AMANPOUR". Let's get our Fred Pleitgen with the very latest from Kyiv. And Fred, I'm
guessing you were listening in. Let me just get your take on what we heard from Ukraine's army chief. In particular, I mean, you're talking about
morale following on from the Kursk offensive, but in particular, I want to talk to you about the rationale that he gave to Christiane behind the Kursk
cross-border incursion, which of course, took many by surprise. What did you make of the thinking behind it?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I'll tell you what? One of the most interesting things that I took from that, or that
I thought was one of the most interesting things, Isa, was the fact that Oleksandr Syrskyi in that interview said that one of the reasons why they
decided to do that Kursk offensive or their Kursk incursion in the first place is because they felt that the Russians were in the process of
planning an invasion of Ukraine, of another invasion of Ukraine through the Kursk area that Russia was pulling together troops in that area.
One of course, things that we know that after the -- when the incursion started by the Ukrainians, there really wasn't very much in the way of
Russian military on the ground there. And yet, the Ukrainians seem to be saying that they had, in some ways intercepted plans by the Russians or
felt there were plans by the Russians to open yet another front from the Kursk area.
And they were basically preemptively striking that place, in order also, of course, to create a buffer zone between the areas inside Ukraine and
Russian territory. That's one of the things that President Zelenskyy of this country has also said that creating that buffer zone was also one of
the reasons for that as well.
Now, Syrskyi, of course, saying he believes that so far, that operation has been a success.
[14:05:00]
And I think that's one of the things that the Ukrainians have also been saying. They say that for them, this was a big morale boost, and you see
that on the ground here as well, that the Ukrainians are saying that for a lot of people here in this country, it's been a big morale boost, and of
course, for the military, it's been a big morale boost as well.
And then of course, there is that part of the Kursk incursion that still remains a gamble for the Ukrainians. They say that one of the reasons why
they did this is to try and get the Russians to move some of the troops that they have currently, conducting that offensive in the east towards the
Kursk area to relieve some of the pressure on the frontlines.
I know later in that interview, Oleksandr Syrskyi said that the Russians in the past six days have not been able to make further progress along those
frontlines, and still Vladimir Putin, for instance, says that the offensive in the east of Ukraine has not slowed down by the Russians. So, the
Russians very well aware of that rationale as well, Isa.
SOARES: Yes, I'll let you put your earpiece in, and just, you know, on that point, Fred, I mean, he also admitted in that interview with Christiane, of
the pressure, the intense pressure, immense pressure, I think his words were, in eastern Ukraine, that eastern front. And this comes --
PLEITGEN: Yes --
SOARES: As we said, as President Zelenskyy warning of an extremely important Autumn for his country as he reshuffles his cabinet. Just explain
the strategy, the thinking behind this.
PLEITGEN: Yes, well, first of all, there was another part of Oleksandr Syrskyi's answer that I thought was really interesting as well, because one
of the things that he had said, why there's so much pressure on the Ukrainians in the east of the country. Of course, there is that big
offensive going on by the Russians.
And he said the same things that we've heard from a lot of commanders in the past. They said, look, we're outgunned by the Russians. They have more
ammunition, but he also said that right now, it is imperative for the Ukrainians to get more manpower. The Ukrainians of course, have been
recruiting more than they have been in the past.
But a lot of those forces have not yet come to the frontlines. And one of the other things that Syrskyi also said is that some of the soldiers that
are going to that eastern frontline did not come with as much training as he would have liked to see. So, manpower right now for the Ukrainians is
certainly a major issue, one that is a major priority for the military leadership, and of course, for the civilian leadership of this country as
well.
And that offensive by the Russians is really one that is really dangerous for the Ukrainians also, because the Russians have pushed very far towards
that city of Pokrovsk, that city of Pokrovsk is a major logistical hub, but it could also open the door for the Russians to try and invade other places
in eastern Ukraine and southeastern Ukraine.
So, definitely, a place that the Ukrainians want to hold, and you could feel in that interview with Christiane, that -- Oleksandr Syrskyi; the
commanding general was definitely very much aware of what a decisive battle that is down there.
And that's why the Ukrainians also are hoping that the Russians, even if they don't move any of the troops that are currently part of the Pokrovsk
offensive by the Russians themselves, that at least, the Russians won't be able to reinforce the way they would have, and maybe that will take some of
the steam and some of the pressure off the Ukrainians, Isa.
SOARES: Yes, a fascinating and very candid interview with Ukraine's commander-in-chief. Fred Pleitgen there, appreciate your analysis as
always. Thank you, Fred, who is live in Kyiv for us this hour. Well, CNN is tracking some disturbing drone video. Our chief international security
correspondent Nick Paton Walsh, has -- reporting on Russian forces allegedly executing Ukrainian prisoners of war. Here's a little short clip.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice- over): Prosecutors say they're investigating a total of 28 cases in which 62 Ukrainian soldiers were killed after surrender on the battlefield.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If prisoners of war surrender, if they show that they surrender, if they are without weapons in their hand -- in their hands,
then a summary execution is the war crime.
WALSH: It has worsened in the past ten months. CNN obtaining from Ukrainian Intelligence officials, a detailed list of 15 incidents, most backed up by
drone video or audio intercepts.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SOARES: And you can see the Nick Paton Walsh report in full in a few hours at 7:00 p.m. Eastern Time. And another quick programming note, I'll be
talking with William Taylor on Friday. He's a former U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine. Please tune in for that, I'll be -- take on in all these strands,
of course, in the United States and in Ukraine.
Once again, Vladimir Putin appears to be stirring the U.S. political pot with a smirk on his face. The Russian President expressed his so-called
support for the U.S. Democratic nominee, Kamala Harris in an economic forum in Vladivostok. In a teasing comment, he described Harris' laugh as quite
infectious.
U.S. Intelligence agencies believe Mr. Putin actually wants Donald Trump to win. The White House meanwhile pushing back. National Security Council
Spokesman John Kirby says the Russian President should quote, "stop talking about our election and stop interfering in it".
Joining us now here in London is CNN's former Moscow bureau chief Nathan Hodge. Nathan, good to see you. Just explain then these comments from him,
from Putin and what he's trying to accomplish because, you know, he's saying one thing that he supports Kamala, but we heard from the United
States, they believe that Putin will much rather have a Trump take office.
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So, what should we -- how should we interpret these comments?
NATHAN HODGE, JOURNALIST & FORMER CNN MOSCOW BUREAU CHIEF: Yes, so, once again, we have Putin showing Russia is sort of the troll on the world
stage.
SOARES: Yes.
HODGE: You know, very much so. And you describe the way he kind of smirkingly delivered this line. And he also referred to Kamala Harris'
smile, which is one of the sort of negative talking points as -- you know, as a jibe that Donald Trump frequently likes to make about Kamala Harris.
So, in a lot of ways, this was sort of a very -- a winking kind of appearance where he is giving kind of a left-handed endorsement of what he
thinks or what he is saying publicly is the candidate they support. And I'm reminded that in 2016, he was on the stage at the same forum when he
basically denied that Russia was involved in, for instance, the DNC hack.
But at the same time said, well, the important thing is, this has been made public, a very embarrassing e-mails that were leaked after hack, you know,
of DNC e-mails. And so, certainly, this is in keeping with the spirit --
SOARES: In keeping, so, is he laughing at U.S. democracy? What -- how would you interpret that then?
HODGE: So, I would say that, you know, Putin never misses a chance to basically point out what he sees as American hypocrisy.
SOARES: Yes --
HODGE: He doesn't like to hear American hectoring, you know, about Russia's failure to adhere to human rights --
SOARES: Yes --
HODGE: And democracy. You know, even though for instance, Putin's, you know, most important opponent died in a Russian prison earlier --
SOARES: Yes --
HODGE: This year. But he has very little tolerance for that, and will take any opportunity that he can to sort of -- you know, poke fun at American
democracy.
SOARES: And this comes -- and the timing of this is interesting, because this comes, I think we did on the show yesterday, just -- I think it was
just hours after we heard from the U.S. Justice Department, of course, who at this time yesterday was accusing Kremlin of spending millions of dollars
basically in covert attempt to influence U.S. election.
So, I'm guessing the Russians haven't responded to that. They normally don't. But just explain what stood out to you from that, from the U.S.
Justice Department.
HODGE: You know, for instance, what stood out to me was the figure, you know, $10 million --
SOARES: Ten million is a staggering amount --
HODGE: It's not small change --
SOARES: No --
HODGE: And basically, the difference as well as it's buying the influence of influencers.
SOARES: Yes.
HODGE: Whereas, you know, in the 2016, the Russians had kind of perfected the tactic of troll factories, which would be creating these sort of
obscure and small sites -- would appeal to small sort of sectors --
SOARES: Which I covered, I remember --
HODGE: Yes --
SOARES: Back then --
HODGE: Absolutely, and they would appeal to sort of small segments of the population that Russian -- you know, the Russians wanted to reach. But in
this case, they're going for people allegedly --
SOARES: Yes --
HODGE: Who have very large audience.
SOARES: And speaking of that, I think among the commentators that was affected, "Tenet Media" is one of those websites. Are these right-wing
personalities that have -- named Benny Johnson, Tim Pool, both have millions of subscribers on YouTube as well as other social media platforms.
I just want to play a little clip of the content, Nathan, that they were putting out. Have a look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIM POOL, HOST, THE CULTURE WAR PODCAST: Ukraine, you can go f-yourselves. You can take -- I'm going to keep it chill because I'm about to get wild.
You don't come to me and tell me that I owe you! I don't know you! I owe you nothing! Scumbags! You come to me and you make demands!
You come to my house and you insult me, and tell me I've got to pay your bills. Have a nice day. Good luck.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: So, that's just a short clip of some of the content they were putting out. Have they responded to what we heard from the DOJ?
HODGE: Well, first of all, I would just point out that you could not buy a better parroting of Kremlin talking points --
SOARES: Right --
HODGE: Than that segment, basically talking about Ukraine being essentially a puppet of the United States, and that they're the enemy, that Americans
shouldn't be supporting -- or American taxpayers shouldn't be supporting Ukraine --
SOARES: Shouldn't be supporting, exactly.
HODGE: Right, so, this -- and that was -- that was a striking thing, although Tim Pool now said that he and others are the victims of this
alleged --
SOARES: Debacle --
HODGE: Scheme. Well --
SOARES: Is that honest? Was that an honest --
HODGE: Look, if you look at the DOJ's -- you know, what they have made --
SOARES: Yes --
HODGE: Public about this, they are claiming that people who were involved with this media firm were knowingly taking money payment from the Russians.
Now, this all has to be --
SOARES: Right --
HODGE: Of course, decided in the court of law, and of course, they have responded, for instance, the Gibbs-Tim Pool, that they are the ones who
were the victims of some kind Russian plot. And the content that they were making, they would have made any way.
But you know, this is a kind of a classic case where the Kremlin has always been looking for, and one of the longstanding, sort of venerable traditions
of Russian propaganda is that you look for, you know, what they call useful idiots.
[14:15:00]
People that they know will voluntarily --
(CROSSTALK)
HODGE: Repeat those talking points, repeat those propaganda points, not necessarily -- they don't necessarily have to be paid. So, you know, this
is -- and there's a historical pattern here that's worth pointing out.
SOARES: Indeed, and we have seen it numerous times when it comes to elections. Nathan, always great to get your insight, thank you, great to
have you on the show. Now, Hunter Biden is offering to change his plea in order to avoid trial in his federal tax evasion case, and the hearing
coming on right now -- going on right now, I should say.
Started what ? Fourteen minutes ago. The President's son plans to accept punishment while maintaining his innocence. The prosecution opposes the
move. Biden's lawyers announced the plea moments before jury selection was scheduled to begin. Meantime, a federal judge says she could decide soon,
earn a pre-trial schedule in Donald Trump's election subversion case.
Attorneys entered a plea of not guilty on behalf of the former President, who was not in court. His legal team and prosecutors clashed over how the
case should move forward. Let's get more on both of those strands. We're joined now by criminal defense attorney Bernarda Villalona.
She's a former New York prosecutor, a well-known face here on the show. Bernarda, great to see you. Let's start then with the Hunter Biden and the
attempt to change his plea and avoid a federal tax evasion trial. What do you make of that decision?
BERNARDA VILLALONA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I'm not surprised. You have to think that Hunter Biden is well aware of the strength of the
prosecution's case, just how the strength of the prosecution case was in Delaware. I mean, in my opinion, I think that he should have pled guilty to
both of the cases to try to minimize whatever exposure he has in terms of sentencing to try to avoid a jail sentence.
But it's noteworthy to note that number one, the type of plea that he wants to enter is an Alford plea, where he's going to accept responsibility, but
he still maintains his innocence. So, what he's saying by that is that he acknowledges the strength of the case and that the prosecutor is going to
be able to prove the charges beyond a reasonable doubt.
But he is still proclaiming his innocence. Is going to be up to the judge and also determine if the prosecutor is going to go along with this plea.
SOARES: Yes --
VILLALONA: Well, let's not forget where we started. Over a year ago, this was supposed to be a plea where it would have been to a misdemeanor and two
years probation.
SOARES: And Bernarda, I mean, prosecutors, well, already heard this. They seem pretty skeptical and are pushing back on this. So, how do you see this
playing out then?
VILLALONA: Well, I -- if I were the prosecutor in this case, I would actually accept that plea, knowing in good faith that this case was going
to end up being a sentence of probation. So, I think it's in the best interest of the prosecutor as well as of Hunter Biden to accept this plea,
and let's move on with these two cases because regardless he will be sentenced on the case in Delaware since he was found guilty on those
charges. The question will be, what type of sentence will the --
SOARES: Yes --
VILLALONA: Judge administer for that case?
SOARES: Let's turn then to another legal case, has been a busy day today. A critical hearing, of course, in Donald Trump's federal election subversion
case. And it was pretty from what I understand, it was pretty contentious. What did you -- what do you take away, what stood out to you, Bernarda?
VILLALONA: Well, what stood out to me, I wasn't surprised. We know what Donald Trump's attorneys were going to do, and was going to try to delay.
But the tactic that they use in delaying is that they wanted to deal with other issues, and not really the immunity issue first.
And the reason why, is because in order to answer the immunity issue, there has to be some form of motions, of writings, of evidence submitted to this
judge to determine what parts were official acts, what actions were official acts? And to determine whether in fact, Donald Trump is immune
from those certain acts and whether it can be used against him in evidence.
It ended just how we thought the case is going to get another date. There will be a scheduling order to determine where the one there'll be an
evidentiary hearing or whether this case can be resolved by just listening and reading the motions that are filed by both parties.
But of course, Donald Trump is trying to prevent some of that evidence from coming out to the public before election day.
SOARES: Yes, critical politics playing a huge part in this as well. Bernarda Villalona, really appreciate you coming on the show. Thank you,
great to see you, Bernarda. Now, while his lawyers were making his case in a federal court in Washington, Donald Trump was in New York to make his
economic case to American voters while outlining his plans for the economy.
The former President said if he were elected, billionaire Elon Musk could lead a government efficiency commission. Do not know what that actually
means. U.S. President Joe Biden will also be talking about the economy today in Wisconsin. He is expected to make a number of stops in the state
of -- to highlight he's investing in America agenda.
And still to come tonight, the brutal killing of an Olympian athlete from Uganda has reignited the debate about domestic violence in the region.
We'll have more on the course to give her justice.
[14:20:00]
And our new episode of our book club, Isa's book club is about 20 minutes from now, a look at real stories from high-stakes world of hostage
negotiations. Mickey Bergman, we'll discuss a difficult job of helping families get their loved ones home. You do not want to miss that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOARES: An Olympic athlete from Uganda has died after a brutal attack by her boyfriend. Marathon runner Rebecca Cheptegei competed at the Paris
Olympics last month. She had been in critical condition since Sunday after her boyfriend doused her in gas and then set her on fire in Kenya.
Local media say the attack was part of a dispute over a piece of land. Uganda's Athletic Federation paid tribute to the sportswoman, condemning
the attack as well as calling for justice. I want to bring in our Larry Madowo who joins me now live from Kigali in Rwanda. And Larry, this is just
beyond shocking. Just tell us what more we know, what is her family saying here?
LARRY MADOWO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Just a few days ago, Rebecca Cheptegei, only 33 was competing at the Olympics. She was in a marathon, and she came
back to Kenya, where she had a home because that's where she trains with some of the best long distance runners in the world.
Her boyfriend apparently over dispute over land doused her body with petrol and then set her on fire. By the time she got to hospital, she had such
severe burns that the doctors say they did everything they could to save her, but it was too late. It led to multi-organ failure into her death
early Thursday morning.
Her parents blaming Kenyan authorities, the police for not doing anything because her mom and dad say they went to Kenyan authorities, they reported
it and said this man had become problematic, but authorities did not do anything. And they feel if the police had taken action, her life could have
been saved.
The bigger tragedy here is that Rebecca Cheptegei is not -- is not even the first female athlete in Kenya to die where the suspect is a boyfriend or
the husband. In 2021, Agnes Tirop was found stabbed in her own bedroom, the suspect was her husband. Six months later, another Kenyan athlete, Damaris
Mutua was found -- she had been suffocated and strangled. The suspect was her boyfriend.
There's a trend here. When these women become successful in athletics, they start to make some money, gain international recognition, they seem to be
coming home to intimate partner violence. Listen to this activist.
[14:25:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NJERI MIGWI, FOUNDER, USIKIMYE: And if you look at the intentionality of the -- of the murders between all these athletes who have been murdered by
their husbands, boyfriends or partners. If you look at it, there is a thread of financial -- finances. The fact that these women have been able
to be -- on the prime of their life been able to amass wealth, and this wealth unfortunately, has led to their death.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADOWO: There's been condemnation of Rebecca Cheptegei's killing from around the athletics world in Kenya and Uganda, where she was a big star, a
lot of pain and grief here. Amnesty International Kenya now calling for the country to criminalize femicide as a separate crime on its own, and to
create a separate unit within the directorate of criminal investigations to deal with these cases because this trend is a real problem.
Just -- earlier this January, Isa, Kenyan women and many other men marched against femicide in the country, and now you see another example about how
much of an issue this is in the country --
SOARES: Yes --
MADOWO: And especially for this young woman, only 33, still having a big career ahead of her, her life cut short so tragically.
SOARES: Her life right in front of her. And it's just absolutely horrific and clearly as you just laid out there, Larry, the country needs to be
confronting gender-based violence and clubs even should be protecting these women as well. Larry, appreciate it, thank you very much. And still to come
tonight, Israel's Prime Minister denies a ceasefire deal was close to happening as he faces accusations that he blocked a deal with Hamas on
purpose. Also ahead --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICKEY BERGMAN, CEO, GLOBAL REACH: In my work empathy is a necessity and sympathy is a trap.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Negotiator Mickey Bergman speaks about the complexities of working behind the scenes to get detained hostages home. In his new book, "In the
Shadows", my interview with him for Isa's Book Club, that is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:30:20]
SOARES: Welcome back, everyone. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says a ceasefire deal is not closed. That's even though a senior U.S.
official and others say a deal is 90 percent complete. Prime Minister Netanyahu told Fox News there's not a deal in the making and that it would
be inaccurate for others to say so.
He also claimed Hamas has not agreed to a hostage exchange either. The Israeli prime minister has come under pressure at home as well as abroad
for wanting to maintain control of the Philadelphi Corridor, which separates Gaza and Egypt.
And we have been seeing, just in the past few moments, more protests. It's the fifth day of protests. This is just moments ago in Tel Aviv where
families of the hostages. One Prime Minister Netanyahu, it's something we've heard on the show in the last few days, and even as we speak to
families of those hostages prioritizing their return.
Let's get more on all these strands. Our Matthew Chance joins us from Tel Aviv with more. And, Matthew, just help us understand kind of the schism
that we are seeing between what we're hearing in the United States that a ceasefire hostage deal is 90 percent complete and then Netanyahu who says
there's no deal in the making. In fact, he's been doubling down on the Philadelphi Corridor. How do we make sense of this?
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, it does appear, doesn't it, that there is a big gulf between -- in the messaging
between what the United States is saying and what the Biden administration is saying and what the Israeli prime minister is -- you know, how he's
characterizing the situation.
But essentially, we're talking about, you know, the same things, which is that, you know, there is some infrastructure of a deal that's been put in
place, but there are issues that are outstanding. Two main ones. Being the identity of any Palestinian prisoners who were released in a hostage
prisoner exchange. You know, whether or not these will be sort of people who are convicted of terrorism, crimes sentenced to life sentences for
murder in Israeli jails and things like that, that's still something that's very much got to be negotiated. And understandably, there's a great deal of
resistance from the Israeli side on that.
The other issue is what happens to Israeli troops, you know, once the ceasefire is implemented, their continued presence in the Gaza Strip? You
mentioned the Philadelphi Corridor, which is the strip of land between the Gaza Strip and the border with Egypt. Benjamin Netanyahu, the Israeli prime
minister, has personally insisted that Israeli troops stay inside that Philadelphi Corridor. And that's something that's an anathema to mass who
want to see Israeli troops out of that area altogether.
And so, these are the two outstanding issues for the United States. They say, well, look, 90 percent of the deal is done. It's just that 10 percent,
you know, which prisoners and the presence of Israeli troops that still has to be resolved. Benjamin Netanyahu, though going on Fox News within the
past few hours making it clear that he did not believe the country was anywhere near brokering a deal. Take a listen to what he had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER: Hamas is not there with a deal. There's not a deal in the making unfortunately.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it's not close?
NETANYAHU: That still hasn't happened. They want to reconstitute their terror kingdom and it's -- unfortunately, it's not closed. But we'll do
everything we can to get them to the point where they do make a deal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHANCE: So, it's not there yet, but even Netanyahu is saying that, you know, the pressure is going to remain to try and, you know, get across the
line for this deal. Isa.
SOARES: And yet, you know, we continue to see anger, frustration, Matthew, on the streets. I mean, this is the fifth day of protests, much smaller, of
course, from what we saw at the weekend. We've heard from Netanyahu speaking in Hebrew, we heard him in a press conference yesterday speaking
in English. Just speak to the frustration there and whether his stance and the fact that he's been doubled down on the Philadelphi Corridor, whether -
- how families have responded to that.
CHANCE: Oh, I mean, well, there's a great deal of frustration and it's very polarizing this strategy that's been pursued by the Israeli government
under Benjamin Netanyahu for nearly 12 months now, since the October 7th attacks in this country by Hamas and other militant groups out of the Gaza
Strip.
There are still more than a hundred Israelis, the hostages that are being held that are alive inside the Gaza Strip. And a deal, as we've just been
discussing, it's just a hair's breadth away. But every time it comes close for a prisoner swap and for a hostage release, you know, more obstacles are
laid in the way and there's a blame game going on.
[14:35:00]
And many in this country are blaming Benjamin Netanyahu personally for standing in the way of a hostage deal for all sorts of reasons.
There's also -- so, we've seen that frustration on the streets. Hundreds of thousands of people turning out to protest. There are more protests
tonight, as you mentioned, but it's also a rift that's occurred at the top of the Israeli leadership as well. There have been reports of shouting
matches sort of in the cabinet between Benjamin Netanyahu and the head of the Israeli Armed Forces, you know, over this insistence by Netanyahu of an
Israeli troop presence in the Philadelphi Corridor.
There are other options that the military, you know, want to look at as well, like a technological option to sort of make sure that the -- you
know, there are cameras in place and other technological, you know, safeguards there that would mean that Israeli forces could leave and a
hostage deal could be done.
But at the moment, Benjamin Netanyahu absolutely adamant he wants Israeli boots on the ground in the Philadelphi Corridor before he'll even
countenance any kind of deal with Hamas. And that, at the moment, unfortunately, is standing in the way of more hostage releases. Isa.
SOARES: Matthew Chance for us this hour in Tel Aviv. Appreciate it. Thanks, Matthew.
While the ongoing negotiations in the Middle East are just one example of the high stakes, extremely intricate art, of course, of diplomacy. Long
time negotiator Mickey Bergman has worked on private diplomatic efforts in North Korea, in Cuba, Myanmar, Russia, the Middle East, Venezuela, as well
as Africa.
In his new book, "In the Shadows," it really takes readers inside the dramatic and shadowy world of international hostage rescue. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SOARES: Joining us today is Mickey Bergman, the author of "In the Shadows." Diplomacy isn't as glamorous as people think it is, as movies or anything
like that. You had some important wins.
BERGMAN: Yes.
SOARES: But you also had some tough moments when governments used to get in the way.
BERGMAN: It is extremely painful and it's frustrating. And one of the things is that the same amount of attention and details that I put in my
engagement with some of those leaders and the people who work with them in all these countries, you don't expect that you need to do the same with
your own government.
I'll give you an example on this. When we were working with the military government in Myanmar, in an effort to bring Danny Fenster, an America
prisoner who was held there. We worked really hard. We -- after three months of his detention, we got an invitation from the Burmese to come and
visit. And the minute we got that invitation, our own State Department tried to tell us not to go. And asked us to delay. And they succeeded in
delaying us for two months.
They were really afraid -- and they couldn't articulate it to us. They were worried that if we go to Myanmar and meet with the leader of the military
government there and ask for Danny Fenster, he will ask for something in return --
SOARES: Something in return. So, quid pro quo.
BERGMAN: -- from our government that our government is not ready to give. And that way they will be boxed. And in this case, we complied for about
two months and then we said, look, whatever you had going is not working, we're going. And we're able to bring him back without any requests back to
the U.S. government.
SOARES: You and I actually -- you know, we know each other from when I covered Venezuela, you were fighting for the release of the six Citgo,
right?
BERGMAN: Yes.
SOARES: Who have been released and others and the rest, right, who were then released thanks to your work with Mr. Richardson, of course. What is
it like dealing with someone like Maduro?
BERGMAN: Every leader has a style. And a different approach to negotiations. And with President Maduro and his team who are, by the way,
is something you find out when you deal with them individually, they're human beings. They don't -- there's nobody that wakes up in the morning
thinking, oh, I'm evil. Let me see what evil I can do. There's a certain narrative, there's a certain way they see the world that explains to them
why they're doing what they're doing.
SOARES: A big part -- a big theme of your book is empathy.
BERGMAN: Correct.
SOARES: Where'd you find empathy with some of these autocrats?
BERGMAN: Empathy is actually one of the main reasons why I decided to write the book. As you said, like, you know, I was working "In the Shadows." In
my work empathy is a necessity and sympathy is a trap. And so, one of the easiest criticism of somebody who's empathetic is to blame them of
sympathy. When I try to explain the way the North Koreans look at the world. From my perspective, how they see it, I'm blamed of being an
apologist for the North Koreans. I'm not an apologist for the North Koreans.
[14:40:00]
It's important for my job to understand how they think so I can get tangible things with the North Koreans. One of the things that I found out
in my first trip over there that I realized as I was looking, like the North Koreans have three pillars of their identity, of how they see the
world. The first one is that everybody's out to get them. And they have great historic evidence of that. Between the war in Japan when they started
and the Americans offering and the Chinese and South Korea, everything. And so, they believe that we sit here in the studio and when we talk about
Pyongyang, we actually talk about how to invade Pyongyang. And we don't.
SOARES: Yes, but that's what their narrative. That's what -- yes.
BERGMAN: And when I explain that to them, they say, oh, you're just lowering our guard so you can invade Pyongyang. It's not a bluff. It's a
real sense of self. Second, they see themselves as a small country, maybe not geographically, but socially -- social economically surrounded by
giants.
And if you combine one plus two, the third one is, therefore, the only way for them to survive in their way of living, if their regime and their
structure, is to have an asymmetrical threat towards the rest of the world. When I came up with it, that was when I was with Eric Schmidt and Governor
Richardson in Pyongyang. And I -- we shared that in the guest house. And Eric looked at me and he said, so what have you learned from that? And I
said, well, two things. One is about North Korea and one is personal.
And I said, about North Korea, if I find correct about this, then we need to completely recalibrate our expectations of what we can achieve and what
we cannot achieve.
SOARES: Like you said, it's being in their shoes. Understanding.
BERGMAN: Correct.
SOARES: Right. Having that context is so important.
BERGMAN: And then he -- Eric asked me, what was the second lesson? I said, the second lesson for me was a much more complicated one. And that is, I
was wondering, why am I so quick to see that? And I said, I realized I'm Israeli. I was born in Israel. There's three pillars to my identity. Number
one, everybody's an anti-Semite. That's how I grew up. I have evidence. Holocaust, pogroms, all of these things.
SOARES: Yes.
BERGMAN: And even my friends in Israel, they believe that everybody in the Arab world is sitting in coffee places and thinking how we're going to
throw the Jews to the sea. And even though I know it's not the case, some of them do, most of them do not, they don't care, oh, that's what they tell
you to lower your -- our guard and then they'll throw us to the sea. So, it's in the same kind of sense.
Number two, we're a tiny country surrounded by giants. And number three, therefore, the only way for us to have peace and live in --
SOARES: And security, yes.
BERGMAN: -- democracy is to have an asymmetrical threat to us. Now, I'm not comparing Israelis to North Koreans here, very different, but emotionally,
I found that similarity. And that is -- to answer your question, this is how I found -- I find empathy. I find these moments of humanity and figure
out what is common between us.
And people -- I know it's a cliche, but you'll be surprised when I meet with my colleagues from North Korea or when I meet with my colleagues in
Iran, when I meet with my colleagues in Russia, as individuals, human beings, we're very, very similar.
SOARES: On that point, I wonder, and I'm sure it's criticism that you have heard time and time again, those who say, Mickey, that, you know, hostage
negotiations only lead to more hostages being taken, right?
BERGMAN: Yes.
SOARES: I know you've heard it hundreds of times.
BERGMAN: Yes.
SOARES: What is your response? How do you answer that?
BERGMAN: Yes. First of all, it's a very -- it's an emotional criticism and it's logical.
SOARES: Yes.
BERGMAN: It resonates even with -- I hear it. Oh, yes. I can tell you the same narrative of Russia or Venezuela that proves the opposite. They took
Paul Whelan because they communicated, they wanted somebody back. We refuse to negotiate. So, they took Trevor Reed. We refuse to negotiate. They took
Brittney Griner, same goes for Maduro, Citgo Six were taken.
One can argue that it's actually the opposite. If we don't negotiate, we actually incentivize the taking of more Americans.
SOARES: How do you keep hope? I know patience is important. Empathy, sympathy. How do you keep the drive and the focus?
BERGMAN: In a regular day, just like today, you constantly fail. And if you succeed in one case, there's a whole bunch of other families that are
waiting and you haven't made progress. So, it's another -- for us, it's another day that we go home and we sleep at night, or we travel or we have
dinner. For these families and their loved ones, it's another night in a prison cell.
SOARES: Mickey, really great to get your book. If you do us the honor of signing it for us.
BERGMAN: Of course.
SOARES: It has to be this one, unfortunately.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SOARES: Our thanks to Mickey Bergman. There's many more fantastic authors coming to you here on my book club. Next time, I'll be speaking with Aamna
Mohdin, the author of "Scattered: The making as Well as Unmaking of a Refugee. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AAMNA MOHDIN, AUTHOR, "SCATTERED": There's something about child refugees, you spend the rest of your adult life trying to -- you want to live a life
in which you're worth saving and I think that spoke to me so powerfully as well because I wanted to know, OK, why am I here? And not just surviving in
the sense of being alive, but also, surviving in the sense of having this really fulfilling life.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[14:45:00]
SOARES: Full interview coming later this month. And for more on my book club, make sure to visit my Instagram page @isasoarescnn. There you'll be
able to find all our authors in the club and to find more about what your favorite CNN anchors as well as correspondents have on their bedside tables
from Roman history to memoirs, self-help, to successful strategies in basketball. Yes, you guessed it. That last one is from our Omar Jimenez.
And still to come, new details on the moments before the horrific shooting at the high school in Georgia. Plus, the latest on the 14-year-old being
held as a suspect. We have the very latest for you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOARES: We are getting new details about the 14-year-old suspect in Wednesday's high school shooting near Atlanta. Sources tell CNN police
found writings referencing past school shootings in Colt Gray's bedroom, including a high school shooting in Parkland, Florida back in 2018.
These photos are of the two students and teachers who were killed. The shooter used an AR platform style weapon after leaving his algebra class
around 9:45 in the morning. Authorities have yet to reveal a motive and will likely charge the teen as an adult.
I want to bring in Nick Valencia, who has there for us, who's been covering the story since it broke. Nick, I mean, 14 years old, that is shocking and
saddening at the same time. We are also learning that this teen, this 14- year-old was questioned by law enforcement about a year or so about school shooting -- about another school shooting when he lived in another county.
What more can you tell us about this?
NICK VALENCIA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and that detail is maddening to some of the parents of the victims here. The fact that investigators had
questioned this 14-year-old, then 13, for apparent threats that he made online. But he told investigators then that he wasn't the one that did it.
It was also determined that his father had hunting rifles there in the home, but the father us that he did not have unauthorized access to those
guns. So, police said there was really no probable cause to take him into custody. That incident, though, being drawn back into focus because of what
happened here yesterday.
And look, despite all the questions, there's clearly a lot that was done right here yesterday. By the school, they had automatic doors that lock.
They also had recently implemented a new security system, which was consequential, according to police there, they handed out buttons
essentially to teachers here that they could click and notify authorities when they were involved in a school threat, and that's what happened
yesterday. It led to a very, very limited lag time and police arriving here on the scene, and they credit that new security system for helping save
lives yesterday.
There is a lot of emotion here, though. You see behind me a growing vigil, a lot of tears in the eyes of those that are showing up here. And we are
hearing that yesterday was a lot of confusion and chaos. Just listen to one of the students who we spoke to who was in the school when those gunshots
erupted.
[14:50:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LYELA SAYARATH, STUDENT, APALACHEE HIGH SCHOOL: He's in the bathroom and I'm just in class as normal. And we're working. And my friend goes to the
bathroom. And a little bit later, an administer comes in looking for them. Well, one of them. And they mistake my friend for him, and they take my
friend like his bag. And a little bit later, he comes back in with his bag. And I asked him like, oh, what happened? And he was like, oh, I don't know.
They were looking for the kid that sits next to you, not me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VALENCIA: It's a chilling new information from that student who was there inside the school. The focus meanwhile here on those four who were killed
and those who were injured. Four people here identified. Two of them were teachers identified as 53 old Christina Irimie and 39-year-old Richard
Aspinwall, who was also the defensive coordinator here for the Wildcats football team. They have postponed their game that was scheduled for
Friday. Meanwhile, those two others who were killed both, 14 years old, Mason Schermerhorn and his classmate Christian Angulo.
As for the suspect, we were told he was transferred overnight into juvenile detention. Despite facing charges as an adult, because he's technically a
minor, he's going to be held in a juvenile detention center. And the next time we see him -- the first time we see him will be for his first court
appearance, which is expected to be virtual tomorrow at 8 30 in the morning. Guys.
SOARES: And my heart goes out, of course, to those two teachers and two students and to their families, of course. Nick Valencia, appreciate it.
Thanks very much, Nick.
And still to come tonight, Pope Francis addresses crowds in Indonesia, signing a pledge with Muslim leaders, calling for peace and phrasing large
families. We'll have all the details from his talk next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOARES: Well, Pope Francis continue his marathon trip across Southeast Asia. He celebrated mass at a stadium in Jakarta in front of a massive
crowd. Before that, he held an inter religious meeting in the region's biggest mosque. During Wednesday's visit to the Indonesian presidential
palace, Francis praised people in Indonesia for having large families. He also weighed in on the public debate over so-called childless cat ladies,
questioning those who may be choosing to have pets over children.
[14:55:00]
Well, a small asteroid hit the Earth's atmosphere over the Philippines on Wednesday, creating a spectacular fireball as it burned up during entry.
Have a look at this. Asteroids this size are harmless and pretty common, with one hitting Earth about every two weeks. That is according to the
European Space Agency, but they are rarely seen before they strike. That's pretty stunning. Experts say it's just the ninth asteroid which has been
spotted before impact.
And finally, tonight, we leave the best to last, there's a new addition to our show team. We're also so pleased to announce that our producer Anna
Gorzkowska and her husband David have welcomed a new baby boy. Meet Finlay Bill Bloxsom, born on August 25th to two beautiful parents who are
completely overjoyed, probably tired by this point, by his arrival and are absolutely in love. We are very looking forward to meeting this gorgeous
wee little boy, and congrats of course to new mom, Anna. Hope you're getting some sleep.
And a tip, some advice, Anna, coffee. That's the way to do it.
That does it for us for this evening. Thanks very much for your company. Do stay right here. Newsroom with Jim Sciutto is up next. I shall see you
tomorrow. Bye-bye.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:00:00]
END
