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Isa Soares Tonight
Israel Confirms Hamas Leader Yahya Sinwar Killed in Gaza; Netanyahu Cites "Evil Has Suffered a Heavy Blow" After News of Sinwar's Death. Israel Confirms Yahya Sinwar's Death; Hamas' Uncertain Future; State Department Holds Briefing After Confirming Sinwar's Death. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired October 17, 2024 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News!
ISA SOARES, HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: Hello, and welcome everyone, I'm Isa Soares. Tonight, I want to go straight to our breaking news. Israel's most
wanted man is dead. The IDF confirmed the killing of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar in Gaza just a short time ago. And now, Israeli Prime Minister
Benjamin Netanyahu is speaking out, saying evil has been dealt a blow.
Well, Sinwar was considered the mastermind of the October 7th attacks. Israeli army radio says it's believed he was killed after a tank fired at a
house in southern Gaza. Prime Minister Netanyahu is urging the people of Gaza to quote, "break free from the tyranny of Hamas". Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, PRIME MINISTER, ISRAEL (through translator): Today, evil has suffered a heavy blow. But the task before us is not yet complete.
The dear families of the hostages, I say, it is an important moment in the war, we will continue with all our strength until we return home all of
your loved ones who are our loved ones.
It is our highest commitment, it is my highest commitment, and to the residents of Gaza, I say, Sinwar ruined your lives. I told you he was a
liar, but in reality, he was hiding in a dark den and he was killed when he fled in a -- from our soldiers. His elimination is an important landmark
into flying from the evil rule of Hamas.
I would like to say, again in the clearest way, Hamas will no longer rule Gaza. This is the beginning of the day after Hamas. And this is an
opportunity for you, residents of Gaza, to finally break free from its tyranny.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Well, these, you're looking at there are new pictures of Israelis celebrating the news, honking their horns while a soldier passes out sweets
as you can see there. U.S. officials have long considered Sinwar's death to be one of the best chances to end the war in Gaza. But that's far from
certain at this hour.
It's also unclear how his killing might affect efforts, of course, to bring the hostages home, more than a 100 or so. And Sinwar had only been the
overall head of Hamas since August, if you remember, gaining the position after Israel assassinated Ismail Haniyeh in Iran. But as Nic Robertson now
reports, Sinwar was an influential figure in Hamas for decades.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR (voice-over): Feared and feted at home in Gaza, universally reviled by Israelis. Yahya Sinwar
became the Jewish state's enemy number one for his leading role in Hamas' brutal October 7th slaughter, almost 1,200 people in Israel, triggering
Israel's killing of tens of thousands of Palestinians. The IDF dubbed him a dead man walking. But university-educated Sinwar persistently outsmarted
his enemies.
EHUD YAARI, ISRAELI JOURNALIST: When I was talking to him, he always insisted that we speak Hebrew and not Arabic.
ROBERTSON: Israeli journalist Ehud Yaari interviewed Sinwar four times during the terror leader's 22 years in Israeli jail. Yaari saw Sinwar's
rise to prison leader, but learnt no secrets.
YAARI: He's charismatic, he's shrewd, he's very cunning.
ROBERTSON: Palestinian Esmat Mansour spent years in jail with the man who would become Hamas' Gaza leader.
ESMAT MANSOUR, FORMER PALESTINIAN PRISONER: He constantly follows the security changes and developments in the Israeli security structure.
ROBERTSON: Sinwar's entry to Hamas was through internal security, convicted of playing a role in the killing of two Israelis and four suspect
Palestinian informants.
MANSOUR: He's also a cruel person, not violent, but he's capable of cruelty but within careful political calculations.
ROBERTSON: Born in a Gaza refugee camp to parents who fled their home in what is now Israel in 1948, following the Jewish state's creation.
[14:05:00]
His cause was to reverse his people's expulsion from their land. By the time of his release in 2011, Sinwar had spent 22 years in jail, his freedom
was a seminal moment, traded with more than a 1,000 other Palestinian prisoners for just one IDF soldier, Gilad Shalit snatched five years
earlier. It was an object lesson for Sinwar, but he had emerged to a changed reality.
Gaza now cut off from the world by Israel's blockade, rising to become Hamas' overall leader in Gaza, he worked to reverse those setbacks.
YAHYA SINWAR, LATE HAMAS LEADER (through translator): Harming Al-Aqsa or Jerusalem means a religious war, and we will not hold back. We as
Palestinians as well as Arabs and Muslims are fully prepared and will not hesitate to defend our rights.
ROBERTSON: It was an uneven fight, Israel always with the upper hand, he counted on Iran to help.
SINWAR: Iran has supported us with finance, arms and expertise.
ROBERTSON: Yet, he indicated his stance on Israel could be softening. In 2018, telling an Italian journalist, he saw quote, an opportunity for
change and quote, "a new war is in no one's interest. He stepped up diplomacy with Egypt and Qatar, his interlocutors to Israel, making sure
his cause had a broad Arab alliance.
SINWAR: I say to the leaders of Arab and Islamic countries, there has to be as strategic change in your path. It is ending normalization, closing
the embassies and supporting the resistance.
ROBERTSON: During fighting in 2021, the IDF bombed his house, a week later at a rare press conference, he goaded the IDF to take a second shot, saying
he would walk home. He didn't hide and neither did his fighters ahead of their October 7th attack, their training in plain sight like Sinwar's
comments, misread by the IDF, opening the door to a war that has become his legacy.
Israel's response resulted in the unparalleled killing of tens of thousands of Palestinians and the destruction of Gaza. Internationally, it raised
previously unseen potent pro-Palestinian lobby, if that was Sinwar's strategy, it was succeeding, but at great cost. Ultimately, he will be
judged in Gaza as anger at the destruction Hamas triggered fade faster than the hatred at Israel for doing it. Nic Robertson, CNN, London.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SOARES: Let's get more on this. Nic joins me now live from London while U.S. security correspondent Kylie Atwood is in Washington. Just a heads-up,
we are waiting to see if Vice President Kamala Harris who's in Milwaukee, of course, if she comes to the podium, we'll have to interrupt you.
But Nic, just the significance, first of all to you of this moment, a moment of opportunity for de-escalation, but not what I heard from Prime
Minister Netanyahu, who said the task before us is not yet complete. Your assessment.
ROBERTSON: But he's also offering a way out, and it's not clear why he's offering the way out to the other members of Hamas and the other terror
groups inside of Gaza who are holding the remaining 101 hostages. He's saying, if you hand over those hostages, then we'll let you leave. We will
expel you from Gaza, but you'll get to leave with your lives.
Was Yahya Sinwar holding out against that? Was he blocking that? Was that - - was that always a deal that was under the table? There were certainly rumors about it, and I think right now that the IDF and the Israeli
government feel that Hamas is beaten militarily, but they are regrouping and reforming.
And there has been until now, no sort of day after the war scenario laid out and the IDF continues to go after all those little resurgent bits of
Hamas. They fired two rockets just a couple of days ago up the coast, so, perhaps this is why the Prime Minister is saying that it -- that it's not
done yet, that he continues and wants to continue to push down.
Certainly, I think the hawks around him in his cabinet are absolutely of that mind that this is not the time to take the foot off the brake on Hamas
or on Hezbollah in Lebanon either.
[14:10:00]
So you know what? What he is saying on one hand is giving the opportunity for the other members of Hamas to go into exile, and it's not clear that
that's even -- that they've even talked about that in detail.
SOARES: Yes, stay with us, Nic, let me bring in Kylie, because Kylie, earlier, we were just showing viewers families of hostages protesting, some
of them celebrating -- I actually saw one lady carrying a placard that said the picture of victory is the last hostage, not Sinwar in a coffin. This is
a protester in Tel Aviv.
I know that families of American hostages are worried of what Hamas might do with the remaining hostages, following his death. Can you just give us a
sense of what you're hearing?
KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN U.S. SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. I mean, the families are torn because obviously, today for them is welcome news.
Yahya Sinwar was the architect of October 7th, the mastermind of that horrific attack that led to so many Israeli hostages being held by Hamas.
And so, their families today are obviously welcoming the news that he has been killed, but the flip side of that coin is that they don't know
precisely what this means for their family members. They believe that time is of the essence. At this moment in time to drive forth some sort of an
agreement to get their family members out particularly at this delicate moment when we don't know who is going to take over Hamas.
That is a question on the minds of those hostage families, also a question very squarely on the minds of U.S. officials who are at this moment not
saying exactly what they believe the death of Sinwar will mean for the conflict between Hamas and Israel. In the past, they have said that the
death of Sinwar effectively would be a major breakthrough in this conflict.
And certainly, on one hand it is. But they've also said that the keys to a ceasefire and hostage release deal are effectively in Sinwar's hands, and a
statement like that is going to be tested in the days to come because we'll have to watch and see if there's rapid momentum towards that deal which
U.S. officials say is possible, or if there's still a long road ahead, which they also say is possible at this time.
SOARES: And just as you were talking, I just want to bring viewers, the images we're seeing from not those ones, not Tel Aviv, but the Milwaukee,
this is Tel Aviv protesters there, from hostage families. This is Milwaukee. This is what I was mentioning earlier on. We are expecting to
hear from Vice President Kamala Harris, we're expecting -- I assume that she might address Yahya Sinwar's death and what this means, of course,
given that we are what? Less than three weeks or so until the U.S. election.
So, just that in mind, and I have to interrupt you, Nic, let me just go to you because the way that he was killed, that he was caught, it wasn't so
much Israeli Intelligence. Talk to that.
ROBERTSON: Yes, this is what the IDF is saying. That this was a routine operation that they detected movement on the second floor of a house and
they fired -- tank fired at the house, then they sent in drones, and they do have a lot of drones and they do use drones very often to sort of go in
and check what has happened as sort of battle damage assessment.
And they say in that process, soldiers recognized what they thought was --
SOARES: I'm going to interrupt you, Nic --
ROBERTSON: Yahya Sinwar --
SOARES: Let me just listen to Vice President Harris.
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES & DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL NOMINEE: Yahya Sinwar; the leader of Hamas is dead, and
justice has been served. And the United States, Israel and the entire world are better off as a result. Sinwar was responsible for the killing of
thousands of innocent people, including the victims of October 7th and hostages killed in Gaza.
He had American blood on his hands. Today, I can only hope that the families of the victims of Hamas feel a sense and measure of relief. Sinwar
was the mastermind of October 7th, the deadliest day for the Jewish people since the holocaust. A terrorist attack that killed 1,200 innocent people
and included horrific sexual violence and more than 250 hostages taken into Gaza, including seven Americans living and deceased who remain in
captivity.
A terrorist attack that triggered a devastating war in Gaza, a war that has led to unconscionable suffering of many innocent Palestinians and greater
instability throughout the Middle East. In the past year, American Special Operations and Intelligence personnel have worked closely with their
Israeli counterparts to locate and track Sinwar and other Hamas leaders.
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And I commend their work, and I will say to any terrorist who kills Americans, threatens the American people or threatens our troops or our
interests, know this, we will always bring you to justice. Israel has a right to defend itself, and the threat Hamas poses to Israel must be
eliminated. Today, there is clear progress toward that goal.
Hamas is decimated and its leadership is eliminated. This moment gives us an opportunity to finally end the war in Gaza. And it must end, such that
Israel is secure, the hostages are released, the suffering in Gaza ends and the Palestinian people can realize their right to dignity, security,
freedom and self-determination.
And it is time for the day after to begin without Hamas in power. We will not give up on these goals, and I will always work to create a future of
peace, dignity and security for all. I thank you all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is the U.S. asking --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is the U.S. asking Israel to end the war now Madam Vice President? Would you be asking Israel --
SOARES: You've been -- you've been listening there to Vice President Harris there speaking in Milwaukee, saying that justice has been served
with the death of Yahya Sinwar. Israel, she said, and the entire world are better off. He had American blood on his hands, and she says, I hope the
victims of hostages feel a sense of and a measure of relief.
Of course, she said he was the mastermind of October the 7th, the terrorist attack that led to so much instability in the region and a unconscionable
suffering, of course, of many Palestinians. But this, I think -- and I'm going to ask Nic and Kylie for what stood out to them. To me was this part,
this is an opportunity to finally end the war in Gaza, it must end -- the hostages back, suffering to end, but also Palestinian people can determine
their right to self-determination.
It is time, she said, for the day after to begin. And that to me is a very strong message, not just to U.S., with the American people, but critically,
to Prime Minister Netanyahu. Nic, your thoughts, what did you take away?
ROBERTSON: My takeaway was the same takeaway. The idea that this should begin the day, after the idea that this is a moment where diplomacy can
shift the calculus perhaps on both sides in a way that it hasn't until now. And I think we will begin to see pressure put by the interlocutors, the
likes of Qatar and Egypt on Hamas, as they try to figure out who their new leader is going to be, to find one that can actually make a deal here.
Now, I think we're still some ways off from that, and it's not clear -- you know, it's not clear how and when that will be done. But I think what the
Vice President here is articulating is the way to try now to change the calculus, to send a signal to Israel, to send a signal to the Palestinians,
and important one to the Palestinians.
You know, it's a message that we've heard, the words she has used before to describe what the Palestinians can have. But I think it comes back to Prime
Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, what is his intent? And what's the intent of his cabinet right now? Because we do know that they've listened to the
words of President Biden, of others and haven't heeded them when the United States wants them to.
SOARES: And Kylie, on that point, I mean, the U.S. has repeatedly and for long said that it was Sinwar, that was the one kind of holding up and
blocking the ceasefire deal and the hostage release. Given what we just heard from the Vice President Kamala Harris, given the fact that we are
weeks away from a U.S. election.
Does this pave the way for that, and if Netanyahu doesn't go that way, what leverage does the U.S. have realistically here to change that?
ATWOOD: Yes, that's right. So, U.S. officials, the Secretary of State himself, have long said that Sinwar was the one who was standing in the way
of a ceasefire and hostage negotiation deal. That proposition, that idea that very -- that U.S. officials were saying, you know, very clearly for
months now is really going to be tested now. And --
SOARES: Yes --
ATWOOD: Vice President Harris, as you both noted is using this moment to make clear where the U.S. wants the conflict to go now, saying at this
moment, gives us an opportunity to finally end the war, not creating any question mark in terms of what the United States thinks is next, other than
heading towards a ceasefire and hostage negotiation deal.
[14:20:00]
There are questions, however, about -- as Nic was saying, you know, if Israel will listen to the United States on this front, given what has been
a year of many signals coming from the U.S., many messages coming from the U.S. that have not all -- most of them been heated by Prime Minister
Benjamin Netanyahu.
And when you ask about leverage, well, of course, there is an immense amount of leverage that the U.S. has over Israel when it comes to U.S.
weaponry, U.S. military equipment that goes to Israel regularly. But it has been very clear that President Biden is not willing to use that leverage in
order to make sure that Israel does in fact, what the United States wants it to do in terms of this ongoing conflict.
So, whether or not there is a change in that calculation, maybe possible. We have not heard from any U.S. officials that, that is the direction that
President Biden is heading in however.
SOARES: Yes, Kylie and Nic, thank you very much as you are both talking -- we're looking at live images coming to us from Tel Aviv where it's 20
minutes past 9:00 in the evening, a group of people there celebrating this moment. I just want to read a part of families of hostages from the Hope
forum who said, and I'm quoting them here, "the man who deceived the Gazans and the world that Hamas would grab the state of Israel by their throat
through the hostages and thus maintain its rule in Gaza.
Died as a humiliated man, as the loss of terrorists in his organization. We will continue with all our might until the last terrorist is eliminated. If
you don't want to end up like Sinwar, then return all the abductees, and in return, your lives will be spared." This is part of a statement from
families of hostages, from the Hope forum.
And these are live pictures coming to us from Tel Aviv. We will continue covering the breaking news. Still to come this hour, U.S. President Joe
Biden was set to shore up support for Ukraine during his trip to Germany, but now the killing of Hamas chief Sinwar takes top billing. We have the
latest from Berlin just ahead for you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOARES: Well, U.S. President Joe Biden is en route to Berlin at this hour. He's onboard Air Force One with his top advisors who are briefing him
regularly on the breaking news out of Middle East, of course, the news have been breaking over the last several hours that Israel says Hamas leader
Yahya Sinwar is dead.
[14:25:00]
Mr. Biden set to meet with the German Chancellor as well as the leaders of France and Britain where support for Ukraine was supposed to be the top
agenda, now placed on the backburner, as you can imagine, with the death of Sinwar expected to take center stage. And in the last few minutes, we have
heard that President Biden has praised the killing of Yahya Sinwar by Israel, this is from a statement saying he said this is a good day for
Israel, for the United States and for the world.
He continues -- I'm quoting President Biden here, "I'll be speaking soon with Prime Minister Netanyahu and other Israeli leaders to congratulate
them, to discuss the pathway for bringing the hostages home to their families and for ending this war once and for all, which has caused so much
devastation to innocent people."
And he added, I think this is really important. "There is now the opportunity for a day after in Gaza without Hamas in power, and for
political settlement that provides a better future for Israelis and Palestinians alike." So, this statement coming in from President Biden,
reacting of course, to the killing of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar.
For more on what this could mean for Israel's war in Gaza and for the Palestinians, of course, I'm joined now by Fawaz Gerges; he's a Professor
of International Relations at the London School of Economics, a well-known face here on the show. He is the author of "What Really Went Wrong" -- very
important that this time and age, "The West and the Failure of Democracy in the Middle East". Fawaz, great to have you here.
Let me first get your reaction, your assessment of what this death, his death means not just for the Palestinians, but for the region.
FAWAZ GERGES, PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS, LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: Well, I think the death of Yahya Sinwar is a massive military
and political blow for Hamas. Yahya Sinwar was the top political leader, the top military commander. He was seen as an iconic figure by the
fighters.
His death leaves a huge hole, leadership hole in Gaza and in the Palestinian territories in the West Bank, in the occupied West Bank and
Gaza.
SOARES: Who would fill that hole then because we don't know, there's much conversation being had at the moment about his brother, Mohammed(ph). We
don't know if he was targeted. We don't know if he's hit, if he's been killed. Would he step in, would he fill that void?
GERGES: If his brother is alive --
SOARES: Yes --
GERGES: There are some reports that his brother was with him, we don't know yet, but --
SOARES: Yes --
GERGES: I think we're missing the big picture here. This conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is never about one individual.
SOARES: Correct? Yes.
GERGES: Israel has been assassinating Palestinian leaders for four years. Does Israel have security? The second point I would like to make is that
Hamas has morphed into a guerrilla force, it's no longer really fighting as a structured, top-down military force. Its units are basically acting in
separate units in northern Gaza, in central Gaza, in Rafah.
So, already Hamas has positioned itself, Isa, for a war of attrition, for a long war. So, I think both the Americans and the Israelis are prematurely
writing the obituary of Hamas. Hamas is not dead. Hamas is not defeated. This is a long war. What I fear the most is that -- is that the lives of
hostages now actually at risk --
SOARES: Yes --
GERGES: Far from maybe as President Biden and Israelis think that somehow they're going to get the hostages back. I fear really for the lives of the
-- of the hostages and thousands of Palestinians now --
SOARES: Of course --
GERGES: In the north --
SOARES: Sixty four thousand people have died, 100 hostages being held, and I just want to bring up a graphic, we're -- as you're talking, Fawaz, we're
seeing -- these are the images out of Tel Aviv where the celebrations -- but can I just ask my producer Sara to bring up that graphic of those who
have been killed already in the last year or so.
There we go, we've seen already with Mohammed Deif, we've seen Ismail Haniyeh and Yahya Sinwar. You know, Netanyahu, and more than -- more hawks
within his party can turn around and say, well, this is -- this is a victory for us. We will keep going. We are weakening them, we are
decapitating them.
Do you think they will continue this or do you think this is a moment to say, to hold on and say let's think of what can be done going forward,
because as you just heard, Vice President Harris, she said -- she said this is opportunity to finally end the war in Gaza, it is time for the day after
to begin. Which way do you think Netanyahu will go?
GERGES: Well, we know when Netanyahu is, how -- what he stands for. He wants total victory. He wants absolute victory. He wants to basically crush
both Hamas and Hezbollah, far from bringing an end to the bloodletting in Gaza. I fear that the killing of Sinwar would most likely involve with
Netanyahu, because he does not really just want to defeat Hamas, he wants to shape the balance of power in the region.
He wants to defeat Hezbollah as well. He wants to go after Iran. So, the reality is Netanyahu is really in a different place. He's -- you're asking
rational question. In fact, now the extremists, you know, religious honest coalition of Netanyahu will say, let's do more killing, more assassination.
But look -- and this is a point, really historical point. Again, without resolving the Palestinian predicament, without ending Israel's military
occupation of Palestinian lands and granting the Palestinians self- determination, Israel will never have security and peace.
In fact, the question, despite the fact -- and I'm sorry, I'm talking too much.
ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: No, not at all.
GERGES: Israel has been accumulating tactical gains for many years, but its strategic predicament is deepening, that is, it's security and peace.
SOARES: Yes. And I think it's fair to say that, you know, we have -- and we've had from our reporters, seen many people in Gaza who are absolutely
appalled and angry at Hamas, but many others who would look at the fact that they've lost entire families, 64,000 people dead, and they might back
that sort of ideology because of what has been happening with Israel.
In fact, I'm just seeing a reporting that we have from several Palestinians in Gaza telling CNN, you must end the war since the man has been killed.
That speaks to the utter desperation. But if we take a step back, Fawaz, and it's just a bigger picture here, how do you see this? Because,
obviously, we have the war in Gaza. We have Hezbollah as well. We have Iran waiting for that retaliation from Israel. Does this change anything? Does
his death change anything?
GERGES: I mean, looking at it and really in terms of big picture, hardly anything.
SOARES: Yes.
GERGES: The killing of Hassan Nasrallah, a much bigger iconic figure, has not really changed much. In fact, despite the assassination of scores of
Hezbollah's leaders, Hezbollah now is back on its feet. It's fighting back. It's firing missiles at the heart of Israel, including Tel Aviv. And this
is what Netanyahu and his coalition don't understand.
This is not about -- you cannot defeat the Palestinians, you cannot subjugate the Palestinians by using military force. And what's happening in
Gaza, we have to talk about Northern Gaza. You have 400,000 people now who are starved, rattled, bombed, killed, according to United Nations.
SOARES: Yes.
GERGES: And the Americans finally are talking about it. So, this is really much bigger than one individual. And yes, many Palestinians are angry at
Hamas, but they realize who are -- who's really killing the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank as well.
SOARES: Fawaz, always great to get your insight. Thank you very much.
GERGES: Thanks.
SOARES: And as you were talking, I was keeping a close eye on those images you're looking out there from Tel Aviv in Israel, 9:32. This is a morgue in
Tel Aviv where we're expected to see them bringing out the body of -- of course, of the leader of Hamas -- the former leader of Hamas. We will, of
course, as soon as that happens, we will bring that to you. This is a moment where we have seen celebrations across many parts of Israel.
He was, of course, the mastermind of October the 7th, killing 1,200 or so Israelis. And for many families, this is a moment of relief, a celebration.
And also, for the families of the 100 or so hostages, this is a moment of so much uncertainty. Because as we've heard, not just from Fawaz Gerges,
who has been with me, but also our correspondent in Washington, many of them are worried at what that will mean for the hostages. We will continue
to stay across those images and the breaking news.
And still to come on the show tonight, Yahya Sinwar's death opens a power vacuum, as we were talking about at the top of Hamas. Who will fill that
void? What would the next move be? That will be next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:35:00]
SOARES: Welcome back, everyone. Let me update you on the breaking news that we've been following here for the past 36 minutes. Israeli Prime
Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says evil has suffered a heavy blow with the death of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar. It comes, of course, renewed
speculation that ceasefire and hostage talks can progress.
One Israeli government official has told CNN that Sinwar's death should do just that. While others, as you've been hearing from the past 20 minutes or
so, are warning that a lack of a clear successor could complicate matters and could also put hostages, a hundred or so hostages, at further risk.
Another Israeli source close to the issue says chaos in Hamas' ranks could follow and the risk of revenge for Sinwar's death remains very real.
In the meantime, the families of some U.S. hostages still held in Gaza have called for their release following the death of Sinwar. And of course, we
have shown you some pictures outside of Tel Aviv of families celebrating -- hostage families celebrating his death.
I want to bring in our Chief International Correspondent Clarissa Ward to give us an idea of the wider picture across the Middle East.
And, Clarissa, before we get to talk about the wider picture, you've reported -- you've been reporting this for a year or so, you've been into
Gaza. We've heard from some Gazans who've basically said, with his death, this should be the end of the war. This should be it. Just give us a sense
of what he represented to some, but not all, but the anger over the past year because of what they started.
CLARISSA WARD, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It's really interesting Isa, because when you talk to people in Gaza about Sinwar's death, many of
them, especially if they're in front of a camera, will pay lip service. They'll say we're sad. Obviously, he was an iconic and important leader,
and it's very depressing.
But you're not seeing the outpouring of emotion that we've seen with the assassinations of other leaders like Hassan Nasrallah, the leader of
Hezbollah, also, Ismail Haniyeh, for example, the political leader of Hamas, who was assassinated in Tehran. And it may be possible that that
will come and that we'll see in the coming days a kind of outpouring of emotion.
But what you tend to see more is the lip service is paid and then the focus immediately is just on survival. What does this mean for us? Does this mean
that potentially we could see an end to this hell that we have been living through now for over a year? Is there any light on the horizon?
You also see a lot of cynicism and pessimism in there. Most people who CNN has spoken to throughout the day saying, listen, we are not optimistic. We
don't believe that the war will stop because of this. But I do think it's a moment to just take stock for a second, 42,000 people dead, people
starving, the reemergence of polio disease. I mean, we are talking about a truly extraordinary catastrophe.
And so, for the vast majority of Gazans, the natural focus right now. is not on the political infighting in Hamas, but on the question of their very
survival. Will we live to see another day?
SOARES: And we've seen the situation in Northern Gaza. They haven't seen food. They're absolutely starving. Situation is incredibly dire. And, you
know, we have heard from the U.S. for months now, Clarissa, that it was Sinwar who was holding the whole hostage deal negotiation, ceasefire deal
up.
[14:40:00]
I mean, does this change anything you think, given what we heard from Netanyahu? Because the message from Vice President Harris in the last hour
was very clear. She basically said, it is time for the day after to begin. This is an opportunity to finally end the war in Gaza. I didn't hear that
from Netanyahu.
WARD: No, and it's interesting because, as you have said, always the rhetoric has been it is Sinwar who is preventing the release of the
hostages. It's Sinwar who is preventing any kind of a ceasefire agreement. And now, the proof will be in the pudding. Where does Prime Minister
Benjamin Netanyahu go from here?
He offered his speech a couple of hours ago. What can we glean from it? He talks about the return of the hostages as still being our highest
commitment. But he goes on to say, that urges people patience, talks about many challenges ahead, talks about the different fronts that have opened in
this war, Hezbollah, Beirut, alluding also to Iran with the broader region.
And so, I think when you listen to that speech, you didn't necessarily have a strong impression that we can expect to wake up tomorrow and hear that
ceasefire talks and hostage negotiations are being reestablished right away.
SOARES: Yes, it does sound to me like he's doubling down. In fact, we heard from Itamar Ben-Gvir, the national security minister, more far-right,
one of the big hawks, saying we must continue with all our strength until the absolute victory. Three weeks, of course, until the U.S. election. It
would be interesting to see what leverage, if any, the Biden administration has and wants to apply at this moment. Clarissa, appreciate it. Thank you
very much.
WARD: Thank you.
SOARES: And still to come tonight, Sinwar is the second top Hamas leader to be killed in just the last few months as Israeli forces strike another
devastating blow. Where does the militant group go from here? We'll explore after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOARES: Welcome back, everyone. Benjamin Netanyahu says there's no sign the hostages were harmed in the military operation in Gaza that killed
Yahya Sinwar. A spokesperson for the Israeli prime minister says the IDF was told to relay that message to the families of hostages. It's still not
clear how the death of Sinwar will impact the ceasefire, of course, or hostage talks.
With so much damage as well as death inflicted since October the 7th with Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar dead, attentions will turn to what's next in the
war and for the wider region critically as a whole. I want to bring in Bilal Saab, who is associate fellow of the Middle East and North Africa
program at Chatham House, a well-known face here in the show.
[14:45:00]
Bilal, good to see you, appreciate you taking the time to speak to us. Just give us first your reaction to his death and whether you think, Bilal, it
changes anything in the region.
BILAL SAAB, ASSOCIATE FELLOW, MIDDLE EAST AND NORTH AFRICA PROGRAMME, CHATHAM HOUSE: Well, good to be with you, Isa. My immediate reaction is
good. I mean, the architect of October 7 is gone and it's good for the Palestinians, good for the Israelis, good for the region. Nobody really is
going to have, you know, any grievances about his departure. At least certainly not myself.
But, you know, it just raises the question, which I had the opportunity of listening to the interview that you just had with Fawaz Gerges, he's quite
on point. You know, can Israel now translate this tactical game into some kind of a strategic outcome? And only the Israelis can answer that.
SOARES: How do you think then they will do it? Because, you know, we've heard from President Biden, we heard from V.P. Harris basically saying this
time for the day after to begin, opportunity to finally end the war in Gaza. We're not hearing that -- at least I didn't hear that from Netanyahu.
So, how do you think this -- he will -- how do you think he will proceed? Because this is a moment for de-escalation, just -- I'm not hearing it so
far. Do you think there'll be pressure internationally applied? So far, he has been listening to that advice, or do you think the hawks within his
cabinet will apply the greatest pressure and he will continue doubling down?
SAAB: Well, if there are hawks in the cabinet, show me where the doves are. I'm not sure that this is a very diverse cabinet in Israel. But that
said, look, I think that if you leave it to the Israelis, if it's up to them, they will probably continue to achieve a more ambitious goal, which
is not just degrading the capabilities of Hamas, but to possibly disarm it.
So, that brings up the question that you raised, Isa, which is, can you get some kind of pressure, or added pressure, from the Americans to say, look,
just -- this is a big win for you. If you considered him as a major obstacle to ceasefire, to releasing the hostages, now that he's gone, you
know, can we move forward now? Can we have actually a negotiation about the ceasefire?
And once again, I have very little confidence, frankly, in the administration. I based that over -- you know, from experience over the
past few weeks, months, even the past year. Very little confidence that they will finally decide to exercise some pressure on the Israelis to do
the right thing and to call it off. I mean, this is never-ending.
And I'm not sure why the Israelis would -- it's kind of like the economics concept of marginal returns. At this point, you know, the more you degrade
the organization, I'm not sure what -- really what significant outcomes you're going to get. So, this is a perfect opportunity to de-escalate. Once
again, it is the decision of the Israelis and only the Israelis.
SOARES: It is an opportunity to de-escalate. We -- they've got the war in Gaza, 42,000, 16,000 children killed. We've also got another front, that is
Hezbollah. We've seen the Houthis. Attacks on the Houthis in the last 24 hours in Yemen. And then we're still waiting, Bilal, for that retaliation
on Iran.
Focus for us on Hezbollah, this Axis of Resistance that -- the ring of fire that Israel calls that around them that they have been targeting. How do
you see this changing, if anything, if changes at all vis-a-vis Hezbollah in Lebanon?
SAAB: Not a ton, Isa. I mean, you got to remember that Hezbollah is in dire straits as well. They have yet to replace their top leader. And if I
were to make any comparisons, by the way, between Nasrallah's passing and Yahya Sinwar's passing, it's a big difference. The first is a much more
iconic figure, frankly, across the Arab world. He had a huge say over the future of Hezbollah, over its governance, over its military operations.
With Sinwar, I'm not really sure that -- how much he really was calling all the shots. I mean, we know his responsibilities. He was in charge of
governance in Gaza. But how much governance was there, frankly? And I think it probably is going to be easier to replace him -- brother or someone
else. It doesn't matter. But his killing is far less significant in my mind, I could be wrong, than the killing of Hassan Nasrallah.
I still consider the organization being capable of fighting. I'm talking about Hezbollah. With Hamas, you know, over the next few days or so, we're
going to learn a lot about the organizational structure of the organization. Now, that the top guy is gone, can they continue to pursue a
military operations? I don't know the answer to that. They're sort of a different beast than Hezbollah. They're much more irregular, sort of like
hit and run tactics. They could still do that, but I mean, it's a huge blow, obviously, psychologically speaking for them.
With Hezbollah, I mean, you could see them. They're still fighting rockets and rockets and missiles every day against Israel.
[14:50:00]
SOARES: And, Bilal, apologies, I have to cut you. We are going to go to the U.S. State Department that is holding a briefing now after, of course,
the (INAUDIBLE) of Yahya Sinwar. Let's listen.
MATTHEW MILLER, U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON: -- redouble our efforts to return the hostages home, to bring an end to this war, to
alleviate the suffering of the Palestinian people and to allow the people of Gaza to begin to rebuild their lives. With that, Pat?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. I'll start with this, obviously, but please don't close the briefing without allowing me or someone else to ask about the
other very big story of the day, which is, of course, the new U.N. partition proposal for Western Sahara.
MILLER: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, when you say that over the course of the day -- over the coming -- over the days ahead, the U.S. will redouble your
efforts. How exactly is that going to happen?
MILLER: So, a few things about that. First of all, as you know, we've been trying to achieve a ceasefire that returns the hostages home, alleviates
the suffering of the Palestinian people and ends the war for many months now. And the chief obstacle to reaching that ceasefire and bringing an end
to the war has been Sinwar, who has refused to negotiate at all on recent weeks and has said no time and time again.
That obstacle has obviously been removed. We can't predict that that means that whoever replaces Hamas will agree to a ceasefire, but it does remove
what has been, in recent months, the chief obstacle to getting one So, we're going to continue to work with our partners to find an end to the
war.
The secretary already today, while on Air Force One with the president flying to Berlin, called the prime minister of Qatar, who has been one of
our two mediators, other mediators working to reach an end to the war. He called the foreign minister of Saudi Arabia to talk about the path forward,
and he will be having additional contacts in the days ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right, but what exactly does redouble your efforts?
MILLER: So, it means redoubling our efforts to try and get an agreement that would bring the hostages home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. I get --
MILLER: Look, I'm not going to -- so --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm asking you for the logistics. I understand what you want. I want to know what that actually means, redouble. Does it mean that
you're going to be making twice as many calls?
MILLER: So, you know the proposal that has been on the table for some time. We're going to be trying to push that proposal forward. We now have a
different -- well, we don't know who will be on the other end of the negotiating table now, but it certainly it won't be Sinwar. So, there's a
different -- it is a very different situation.
Now. I don't want to predict too much what our efforts will look like over the course of the days because we are just hours after what is a seismic
event that changes the nature of this conflict. But we believe it is an opportunity to try and bring an end to this war and we're determined to try
and seize that opportunity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. But -- so, you -- but -- so, are you going back to a place where you were two or three -- two months ago? Because I just don't
get the redoubling suggests that you're --
MILLER: We are into -- from a policy perspective and what we, a strategic objectives perspective, what we want to achieve, we are in the same place
and we're going to continue to try to push forward the same proposals we have done with our mediators.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So, redoubling does not include changes to that?
MILLER: So, it goes -- so, here's the difference. Over the past few weeks, there have been no negotiations for an end to the war because Sinwar has
refused to negotiate. There's been no path to ending this war because Sinwar has refused to talk about releasing the hostages or coming to a
ceasefire. We now see an opportunity with him being removed from the battlefield, being removed from the leadership of Hamas, and we want to
seize that opportunity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks.
MILLER: Jillian (ph).
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A couple of things. Can you confirm that Sinwar died yesterday?
MILLER: He was. So, I assume that he died yesterday. So, I will leave the Israelis to speak to the exact results, but it was as the result of an
operation that they conducted yesterday, I don't believe that he lay where he was brought down for hours and died later. But the Israelis can speak to
that. They will be the ones that conduct any testing and can provide any results.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, no confirmation. But that's your belief or understanding?
MILLER: The operation they carried out was yesterday. I assume that he died instantly or fairly shortly thereafter, but the Israelis can speak to
that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does Qatar -- does the leadership in Qatar, after the secretary spoke to them, do you suspect or do you know if they know who
Hamas has chosen successor is going to be?
MILLER: I don't think anyone can say with any certainty. Hamas has a process that they go through in these situations. We saw them go through
that process after the death of Haniyeh. I could only expect that they will go through that process again. I don't think anyone can predict. People can
always speculate, of course, about who the next leader of Hamas will be. But I don't think anyone can predict with any degree of certainty.
[14:55:00]
But what I would hope, what we would hope is that whoever the next leader of Hamas is, he will look at what has happened over the past year and look
at the suffering that Hamas' actions have brought upon the Palestinian people who they aim to represent, whose cause they aim to advance, and
we'll look and decide that they ought to pursue a different path forward. They ought to pursue a path that isn't one of death and destruction and
chaos and harm to Israeli civilians and harm to Palestinian civilians, but one that the United States has presented, that Egypt has presented, that
Qatar has presented, that other countries in the region and around the world have presented and endorsed. And so, that's what we'll be pushing
for.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you communicating that to -- indirectly, you know, to, I guess, the remaining leadership there that -- you know, have
you -- are you communicating that is the United States hope and what you're pushing for?
MILLER: We -- so, I'm not going to speak about any communications that our mediators will have. We always let them speak to those. We're communicating
with Qatar. We'll be communicating with other partners in the region. I think that our position is fairly well known.
Now, of course, we don't know who the person at the other end of the phone is going to be. We don't know who will be making decisions for Hamas now.
What we do know Is that the person who had been the chief obstacle to moving forward with an end of the war is now fortuitously no longer with
us.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Last question. So, I know that you hope this is a big opportunity for ceasefire negotiations and a deal and return of the
hostages, but a little more macro, what about for a two-state solution? How do you think this --
MILLER: Of course, that is the goal that we want to see. That has been our policy for some time. We ultimately want to see a path forward that allows
Palestinians in Gaza to rebuild their lives, to rebuild their neighborhoods, to have security, to have Palestinian-led governance that
they choose, not that it's imposed upon them, by the outside world, to live free from the grip of a brutal terrorist organization as opposed to how
they have been living in Gaza for the past couple of decades. And ultimately, an independent Palestinian State where the Gaza is reunited
with the West Bank.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But is that -- that's just like a lot of hope and no chance or have you seen any, I don't know, indications that that could --
this could create an opening for that?
MILLER: Well, I do want to just step back and this -- I think it will be an answer I give to a lot of questions like that today, which is, we're
just hours after a very significant event. I think we're going to have to watch and see how things settle before people can make predictions about
how the days, weeks, and months ahead will play out.
One thing we do know for certain is that the world is a better place with Sinwar gone from it. And it gives us an opportunity that we didn't have, as
long as he still called the shots for Hamas. Now, what that will mean, we'll have to wait and see in the days ahead. Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could I ask you something? You said that this removes an obstacle. On the secretary's last visit to Israel, he said very publicly
that Netanyahu was on board with the ceasefire plan. This is best with a bridging proposal. Does that still -- is that still the perception in the
United States that the Israelis are completely on board with what was on the table?
MILLER: So, they were -- they had accepted the bridging proposal. And if you remember what else he said at the time is there were still remaining
pieces to that deal that needed to be agreed between Hamas and Israel. So, we had gone significantly down the road and first getting an agreement on
the framework, then getting an agreement on the bridging proposal. But there were still a number of implementing details that needed to be
implemented or need to be agreed to.
And that Israel was going to face some tough decisions in getting there. And we were going to push Israel to make those tough decisions. But -- and
so, that remains the case. But what happened in the interim, after that visit, is that Hamas just walked away from the negotiating table. And so,
the work that we wanted to do to bridge those final differences we couldn't do because you didn't have two partners to talk to.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So -- (INAUDIBLE) of course, is that, you know, there was the issues of the Philadelphi Corridor and all that. Is it the
impression of the United States that there needs to be efforts as well with the Israelis right now, maybe push them a little bit harder to get to the
place where the U.S. wants them to be?
MILLER: So, as I said, of course, there will be tough decisions that the Israelis will need to make to get an agreement to end this war. And we have
made clear any number of times that we will have very direct, candid conversations with them about the need to make those tough decisions. But
we weren't even in a place to do that when you have no one at the other end of the table willing to even agree to negotiate.
So, you can't tell the Israelis they have to make tough decisions when Sinwar is sitting on the other side, saying, I'm not even going to
negotiate the end of this at all. We're now in a different place. What that means going forward too early to tell, but we do believe it is an
opportunity that we want to pursue.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And just pursuing that. I mean, the --
[15:00:00]
END
