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Isa Soares Tonight
Pentagon Unlikely to Send All Funds to Ukraine; Trump Picks Keith Kellogg as Ukraine-Russia Envoy; Australia's Social Media Ban. Putin Threatens Ukraine with New Missile As Russian Barrage Hits Ukraine's Energy Grid; Israel-Hezbollah Ceasefire Appears to Be Holding Despite Both Sides Accusing Each Other of Breaches; Biden Advises Trump to Rethink Decision on Tariffs. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired November 28, 2024 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
ISA SOARES, HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: A very warm welcome to the show, everyone, I'm Isa Soares. Tonight, a million are without power after
massive attacks on Ukraine's energy grid. Vladimir Putin says it's revenge for attacks on Russia with U.S.-made weapons. We are live in Ukraine for
you in just a moment.
Also ahead this hour, a truce between Israel and Hezbollah appears to be holding despite both sides accusing each other of individual breaches. And
then --
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUMAAN ALAM, AMERICAN WRITER: If you described a young person on your staff here --
SOARES: Yes --
ALAM: As ambitious, you'd probably be singing their praises.
SOARES: Yes --
ALAM: If you described them as entitled, you wouldn't.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Author Rumaan Alam brings us a story of the 1 percent and the strange choices that money and entitlement can lead to. That's ahead in my
book club. We begin this hour, though, with a devastating blow to both Ukraine's infrastructure and quite frankly, the weary country's morale
after nearly three years of war.
A massive attack on energy sites by Russian forces has left more than 1 million homes in the dark. The combined missile as well as drone onslaught,
stretched well into the western part of Ukraine across some 14 regions, at least five people were injured. And this has become, as many of you would
know, a familiar scene throughout Ukraine.
People taking shelter after losing power at their homes, as well as businesses. Russian President Vladimir Putin says the attack was a payback,
a response to Ukraine's use of American-made missiles. Have a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VLADIMIR PUTIN, PRESIDENT, RUSSIA (through translator): As has already been said, we will respond to the ongoing strikes on Russian territory by
western-made long-range missiles, including the possible continuation of the Oreshnik test in combat conditions, as was done on November 21st.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Let's get more on all of this, CNN's chief international security correspondent, Nick Paton Walsh joins us now from central Ukraine. And
Nick, you know, this was, as we just outlined there, a pretty massive attack on energy infrastructure, a move right out of the Putin playbook
that he's employed in the last several years as temperatures plunge. Just give us a sense of what you're hearing right across the country here.
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Yes, look, I mean, a million people without power and some of the deliberate outages to
try and enable the infrastructure to recover persisted, 7 to 13 hours at some point during the -- Kyiv's cold day and some of the central regions
too, suffering as well.
So, the 11th largest -- sorry, the 11th large attack on Ukraine's energy infrastructure launched so far this year and President Volodymyr Zelenskyy
saying that there were 90 missiles and a 100 drones launched as part of this quite staggering figures frankly, in terms of the scale of what Russia
threw at Ukraine overnight.
In fact, Zelenskyy going on to say that cluster munitions, tiny bomblets that can often cause significant damage to civilians were used as part of
these attacks, 90 missiles, a startling number. And it's -- of course, as Vladimir Putin said there -- what the Kremlin claims to be their response
to the use of U.S.-supplied ATACMS missiles to hit targets inside of Russia.
Russia producing wreckage and debris from those attacks in what they say is confirmation of those particular attacks. Also today, Vladimir Putin clear
in his outlining, what he considers to be the technological advantages of the Oreshnik missile that they used over Dnipro earlier on during this
week.
And I think concerns buildings certainly that, we may be seeing a sharp escalation of the war ahead of the Trump presidency in January. Vladimir
Putin saying in the same speech that he believed Trump was an experienced and capable man who was able to quote, find a solution. I think that's a
nod towards what many expect to be a negotiating process, potentially in January, the Trump transition team moving towards that as well by
appointing General Keith Kellogg; the former National Security adviser to Donald Trump as the special envoy to Ukraine.
[14:05:00]
Now, Kellogg has written at length back in April about how he perceives there to be a way forward for a peace plan, and it essentially freezes the
frontlines -- asks Ukraine to accept aid as loans and a condition of continuing to receive aid, Ukraine must come to the negotiating table, and
it would adopt as a formal U.S. policy the idea of negotiations.
Russia would potentially get limited sanctions relief, becoming part of this process and then the steps to go forward, I think is where things will
begin to potentially falter. Putin, a wily operator capable of manipulating many negotiating processes. So, a simple plan, it seems, on the surface,
but one that doesn't appear to address the possibility indeed, that Putin may have his own agenda here.
SOARES: Yes --
WALSH: But certainly, concerns definitely growing along the frontlines at how much fast pace we're seeing from Russia in terms of their advances,
particularly in the east. Isa.
SOARES: Nick Paton Walsh for us this hour in central Ukraine, thanks very much, Nick. Let's get more -- the perspective, really, of Michael
Bociurkiw; he's a former spokesperson for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, and he's currently a Senior Fellow at the Atlantic
Council and global affairs analyst.
Michael, good to see you. Let me start then with what Nick was talking about, and then that's this massive Russian overnight attack targeting
energy infrastructure. I mean, it's something that you and I have discussed in previous years, even when I was out in Ukraine. This is right out of the
Trump -- pardon me, slip of the tongue, out of his playbook -- Putin's playbook, right.
So, just give us a sense of the impact this has -- this is -- that you're all seeing this is having in Odesa.
MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, SENIOR FELLOW, ATLANTIC COUNCIL & GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Sure, good to be with you again as well. You know, this is pretty
bad. I mean, I've been walking around for most of the day, Isa, and we're seeing outages of up to 13 hours in sub-regions of Ukraine.
Now, as Nick pointed out, some of them are preventative, but I have a -- I have a bit of a feeling that a lot of these are actually the direct result
of direct Russian strikes over the past few hours on critical infrastructure. Temperatures are very low, near zero right now most of
Ukraine. They're due to drop even more in a few days time.
And Isa, you know, you and I have seen a lot in Ukraine when you've been here and, you know, graveyards and damaged buildings and stuff, but just a
few blocks from here, I went today and I saw the neighborhood that was bombed by the Russians just three days ago.
And you have mass of apartment buildings with no windows, really heavily- bombed out. And you have to wonder how are those people? How are those families supposed to survive --
SOARES: Yes --
BOCIURKIW: This Winter?
SOARES: And I'm sure, Michael, that you saw some of the commentary that is -- that you know, that we heard from President Putin today that he said
that this attack was in response to strikes on Russian territory using U.S.-made ATACMS missiles. Clearly, rebranding this as retaliation which
probably, in all honesty, plays rather well domestically in Russia.
But he's also threatened, Michael, to hit key sites in Kyiv, and in the last few minutes, we've seen that Russia -- this is according to President
Volodymyr Zelenskyy saying that Russia used cluster munitions in its large- scale overnight attack. This is just coming into us in the last few minutes. I mean, how do you read then, Putin's moves here in terms of what
he's saying, because he's clearly emboldened, Michael?
BOCIURKIW: Right. Well, clearly a disregard for human lives and you know, as far as the Ukrainians are concerned, I don't know how -- what more could
surprise them? I mean, yes, that Oreshnik missile was powerful, but my goodness, that strike this morning of almost 200 drones and rockets took
over an hour because these rockets and drones took very circuitous routes across Ukraine.
But, you know, I'd like someone like Mr. Putin, maybe even Mr. Trump to maybe speak to some of the children behind me again. We've seen so much in
this war. But when you meet two young children, including a newborn who don't even know their father is no longer around, and they have to seek
shelter where I am right now, these stories, these little stories are being multiplied all over Ukraine right now and it's only going to get worse, I'm
afraid.
SOARES: Let's speak to Trump, to President-elect Trump, because he believes that he can bring about an end to the war in 24 hours. Putin spoke about
him today, Michael, I want to play this. Have a listen. We can talk afterwards.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PUTIN (through translator): As far as I can imagine, the newly elected President is an intelligent and already quite experienced person. I think
he will find a solution especially after he went through such a -- let's say, very serious test as the fight to return to the White House.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: So, intelligent and experienced. I mean, what is Putin's calculations you think now that Trump will be in the White House? What is
the NATO alliance preparing for, you think here?
BOCIURKIW: Well, you know, a lot of us often talk about how do you get into the mind of a crazy man, Mr. Putin, and maybe one con-man, it's easy
for him to understand another.
[14:10:00]
But I think, when it comes to Mr. Trump dealing with Mr. Putin, there's no floor to his subservience to him. I think he's going to test him out a
little bit. And if Putin doesn't listen, maybe he will give Ukraine everything it needs. We'll see. But let me be clear on one thing. There is
not any -- the hopes here that Trump is going to be good for Ukraine are very low despite what's coming out of Kyiv. If I can add --
SOARES: Yes --
BOCIURKIW: As a Canadian, we feel like the air has been punched out of us in the past 48 hours when Trump wants to impose on America's best friend,
Canada, 25 percent tariffs. So, if you're going to treat your best friend that way, imagine how you're going to perhaps treat a country like Ukraine.
And Trump has in the past referred to Zelenskyy --
SOARES: Yes --
BOCIURKIW: As also a con-man. And he's also -- we will remember --
SOARES: Yes --
BOCIURKIW: Tried to extort dirt on his opponents in exchange for weapons. So --
SOARES: Yes --
BOCIURKIW: That's where we are today, it's pretty sad situation --
SOARES: It is indeed. And I want to tap into your expertise of going in and out, obviously going into Ukraine because the challenges, as we heard
from Nick Paton Walsh, they're very real in -- on the frontlines. But we've also heard from the Biden -- and Biden -- a senior Biden administration
official tells CNN that Ukraine needs to lower the recruiting age for its military --
BOCIURKIW: Yes --
SOARES: From 25 to where it currently stands, to 18. I mean, how would this be received there?
BOCIURKIW: It won't, because I did talk to a lot of people about that today. And there's no way -- there's no way people are going to agree to
that. That will be a political death sentence for any Ukrainian President, because as it was very succinctly explained to me by a mother today is
that, why am I going to send my son, 18-year-old son to the frontline if there aren't enough weapons?
That's very well known here. The world knows it. If the United States had that feeling, perhaps they should have said that quite a few months ago and
backed it up with sending everything Ukraine asked for.
SOARES: Yes, the timing of these comments definitely striking. Michael, always great to see you, appreciate your analysis. Michael Bociurkiw there
talking to us from Odesa --
BOCIURKIW: Thank you --
SOARES: Well, new developments out of the Middle East for you this hour. Israel and Hezbollah are accusing each other of individual breaches of
their ceasefire in Lebanon. The Lebanese army says Israel has violated the truce, quote, "several times". But the Israeli military says it carried out
an airstrike in southern Lebanon after seeing quote, "terrorist activity by Hezbollah." All of this coming on day two of the ceasefire which does
appear to be largely holding.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CHEERS)
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Early, you can see there, Lebanese Armed Forces were welcomed as they moved into areas previously held by the militant Hezbollah group. And
thousands of displaced Lebanese are also on the move, heading back to their homes in the south. That is despite warnings, of course, as we mentioned to
you yesterday, not to return immediately.
Let's get the latest from our Jeremy Diamond who is standing by in Tel Aviv. So, Jeremy, both sides blaming each other for breaching the
ceasefire. What more are you hearing?
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. And we should note that despite these apparent violations that are being claimed
by both sides, this ceasefire is still holding up, at least, for now. The Lebanese army says that Israel violated the agreement both yesterday and
today, claiming that they, quote, "targeted Lebanese territory with various weapons and infiltrated the country's airspace."
The Israeli military, for its part, admits that it did indeed carry out attacks on Lebanese territory, but it says that it was simply enforcing the
ceasefire agreement going after Hezbollah militants who it claims were in violation of this agreement. Today, the Israeli military says that it
carried out at least two airstrikes in southern Lebanon.
One of those came after they identified what they described as, quote, "terrorist activity in a Hezbollah rocket storage facility". The second
time they said that they struck, quote, "two terrorists" arriving at a known terrorist infrastructure site, which they said had been used to fire
against Israel.
They also said that they opened fire on people they described as, quote, "suspects who were in vehicles moving towards Israeli military positions in
southern Lebanon." And this is really -- you know, the tricky part of all of this is that it is incredibly rare when you see a ceasefire that you see
one side taking up the role of not only abiding by that ceasefire, but also apparently, enforcing it.
And that's exactly the position that the Israeli military and the Israeli government are trying to be in right now.
[14:15:00]
And they're also, you know, as they carry out what they are describing as enforcing the ceasefire, they are doing so in part as well to send a
message to the residents of northern Israel who have been incredibly skeptical. Some of whom I met yesterday incredibly skeptical of this notion
that the Israeli military would act unilaterally against any perceived Hezbollah threat.
The Israeli Prime Minister said today -- he noted, for example, in an interview this evening that Israel did indeed enforce this ceasefire on its
first day. And he also warned that if there are severe violations of this agreement, that he has told the Israeli military to prepare to lead to
carry out a quote, "intense war in the aftermath", Isa.
SOARES: Jeremy Diamond for us in Tel Aviv, thank you, Jeremy. Well, Syrian rebels have launched a major offensive against President Bashar al-Assad's
forces, taking advantage of Israel's attacks on Iranian proxies and Russia's focus on Ukraine. The first large scale attack in years began on
Wednesday, and the rebels are closing in on Aleppo.
Aleppo is Syria's second largest city, and it's been under government control since 2016. Iranian state media say a senior Iranian military
adviser has been killed in the fighting. The anti-government factions have already captured around 40 towns and villages, as well as the Assad
government's largest base in the area.
And still ahead tonight, U.S. President Joe Biden has a warning for President-elect Trump. We'll have his comments in a live report just
ahead for you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALAM: The book sort of looks at what happens when you have an intimate relationship with lots of money and what that can do to the psyche.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: My conversation with acclaimed author Rumaan Alam. We dive into the themes of power and money in his new book, "Entitlement". That's in my
book club later in the show.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOARES: President Joe Biden has a pointed Thanksgiving message for President-elect Donald Trump. Just a short time ago, the President urged
Trump to reconsider tariffs on Mexico and Canada. Have a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I hope he rethinks it. I think it's a counterproductive thing to do. You know, look, one of the things
you've heard me say before that, we have an unusual situation in America. We're surrounded by the Pacific Ocean, the Atlantic Ocean and two allies,
Mexico and Canada. And the last thing we need to do is begin to screw up those relationships.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[14:20:00]
SOARES: Well, Mr. Biden's comments come on the heels of President-elect Trump recently holding a phone call with the President of Mexico, Claudia
Sheinbaum. Although, the call was initially referred to as productive, President Sheinbaum is now disputing Trump's interpretation of the call.
Sheinbaum says she never agreed to close the shared border, and in fact, it's not possible.
She also said specifics of Trump's proposed tariffs were never discussed in detail. Joining us now with more is CNN's Arlette Saenz. And Arlette, this
is the first time and the strongest comments in fact, we're hearing from President Biden about some of President-elect Trump's policy decisions or
intentions here.
And in this instance, the criticism is focused entirely there on the tariffs. What more? Just expand on what more we heard from the President
there.
ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, as you noted, Isa, these are very interesting and quite significant comments as it's the first
time President Biden is outwardly criticizing President-elect Donald Trump and his policy proposals since the November 5th election.
President Biden was visiting a firehouse here in Nantucket, Massachusetts, when he spoke to reporters and said he believes that Trump should rethink
the tariffs that he has talked about imposing on Canada and Mexico, arguing that it could jeopardize relationships with some of the United States most
closest allies.
Now, President-elect Donald Trump earlier in the week said that he plans to impose about 25 percent increase on tariffs on all imports coming from
Mexico and Canada until the two countries do more to try to curb the flow of not just migrants to the U.S., but also fentanyl and other drugs.
And for President Biden to come out there and publicly say this is quite a shift from what we have seen over the course of the past three weeks when
he has really refrained from weighing in on any of President Trump's policies or his picks for cabinet posts that have played out since the
November election.
But it's also a very stark reminder that Biden and Trump hold very different policy views on things like tariffs, things like trade and the
economy, but also the way to deal with allies around the globe including Mexico and Canada. So, it's very rare for President Biden recently to weigh
in on this. Just yesterday -- or two days ago, as he was traveling here to Nantucket, he was very careful when someone asked him about these tariffs,
said he wasn't going to comment.
And then now he's changed his tune, saying that he does think that they should re-think it. Throughout the campaign, Biden and Democrats had warned
that they believed that these tariffs would raise prices on -- prices back here at home for Americans. But now he's adding another layer to this,
saying that the president -- President-elect Trump, with these tariff threats against Mexico and Canada could jeopardize those relationships as
well.
SOARES: Arlette Saenz, I know you'll stay across it, thank you very much and happy Thanksgiving to you and your team. Thank you. Now, President
Biden is also commenting on the three Americans who were detained in China, now back in the U.S. in time, of course, for Thanksgiving.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BIDEN: I'm really happy they're home. I got to talk to them all when they landed in Alaska, they were reunited with their families, and it's -- very
happy to be able to get it done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: And the three arrived at Joint Base San Antonio, Lackland in Texas on Wednesday. Mark Swidan had been facing a death sentence on drug
trafficking charges, Kai Li and John Leung were being held on espionage accusations. They were swapped as part of an exchange for several Chinese
nationals being held in the United States.
Still to come tonight, Russian President Vladimir Putin threatens to use a ballistic missile, which he said could quote, "decimate Ukraine". We'll
bring you more after this short break. You are watching CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:25:00]
SOARES: And more on our top story this hour. Russian President Vladimir Putin is praising U.S. President-elect Donald Trump, calling him, quote,
"intelligent and experienced". Speaking in Kazakhstan, Mr. Putin also castigated U.S. President Joe Biden for what he calls creating additional
difficulties, his words, by approving Ukraine to use long-range American missiles inside of Russia.
And the comments come hours after Moscow unleashed a massive barrage on Ukraine's critical infrastructure, which it says was payback for Kyiv using
the U.S.-made ATACMS. Now, Russia is threatening to go further, and again turning to Moscow's experimental medium-range ballistic missiles. Our Fred
Pleitgen has more for you from Moscow.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the early morning hours, Russia launching yet more massive aerial strikes
against Ukraine. The sheer size of the attack, more than 90 missiles and about 100 drones laid out clearly by the Russian President himself.
"On our part, these strikes took place in response to the continuous strikes on Russian territory by American ATACMS missiles", Putin said. "As
I have said many times, there will always be a response from our side." The Russians irate as the Ukrainians continue to use U.S.-supplied ATACMS
surface-to-surface missiles to hit targets deep inside Russia after getting the go-ahead from the Biden administration.
Top Russian politicians now accusing the U.S. President of playing with fire.
(on camera): How big do you see the danger of an escalation right now?
KONSTANTIN KOSACHEV, DEPUTY SPEAKER OF RUSSIAN FEDERATION COUNCIL: I believe we are right now in the most dangerous stage for the simple reason,
we have a lame-duck in the United States of America with all my respect to Mr. Biden.
PLEITGEN (voice-over): And the Kremlin threatening further use of their massive, experimental, multiple warhead ballistic missile Oreshnik, which
they fired on the Ukrainian city Dnipro last week. "Everything that is in the epicenter of the explosion will be decimated", Putin said, "turned into
elementary particles, essentially into dust."
The missile hits even well protected objects located at great depth. This, as Moscow is trying to maintain support at home for what it still calls its
special military operation in Ukraine. The Defense Ministry publishing the slickly-produced video urging Russians to join the army. "We are with our
warriors until victory, this is our land", the narration says.
The Kremlin has said Vladimir Putin is willing to talk to U.S. President- elect Donald Trump, both about ending the Ukraine war and improving U.S.- Russia relations. But they want Washington to make the first move. The spokeswoman for Russia's Foreign Ministry tells me.
MARIA ZAKHAROVA, SPOKESPERSON, FOREIGN MINISTRY, RUSSIA: We are open to normal relationship, which are based on mutual respect and international
law. If the country -- I don't know, United States or other countries, would like to on this base -- on this base to improve, to promote, to
develop, to reconstruct, rebuild relationship with us. We can do this.
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Scores of Ukrainians spent Thursday morning sheltering from Moscow's latest
missile blitz. And despite Kyiv saying they were able to shoot down many drones and rockets, more than a million people had to deal with blackouts
after the raids.
Fred Pleitgen, CNN, Moscow.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: And the U.S. has just two months left to send Ukraine the nearly $7 billion worth of aid already approved, if you
remember, by Congress. According to multiple officials, they're likely to be able to reach that target by the end of President Joe Biden's term. The
U.S. has been struggling for months to keep up with demand from Ukraine as well as replenish, of course, its own supplies. And though it had been
ramping up production, it likely won't be enough.
Our Pentagon correspondent, Oren Liebermann, is following the developments for us. And, Oren, as we have seen, as we spoke to Nick Paton Walsh at the
top of the hour, these weapons, this equipment, desperately needed in that frozen frontline. What has been done then? What are you hearing behind the
scenes, Oren, to try and send some of these funds to Ukraine before, of course, inauguration at January 20th?
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: They will use -- that is, the Pentagon, the U.S. and the Biden administration will use whatever they can
and will send whatever they're able to. The key question is, and this was the problem we heard from multiple U.S. officials and defense officials, is
that they're simply unlikely to be able to use what they have left allocated by Congress. That's roughly $6.8 billion dollars in what's known
as drawdown authority, that allows the U.S. to take weapons, systems, equipment right from U.S. stockpiles and send it directly and quickly to
Ukraine. They've been doing that since virtually the start of the war, and they've kept up a steady pace. But that pace, especially in recent months,
has very much dropped off.
And as we noticed that it wasn't going to be able or didn't look like it was going to be able to hit and use all of that $6.8 billion by January
20th, by the end of the Biden administration, that's when we learned that it's going to be unlikely to happen, according to these officials.
Now, the pace has been raised since fall to about $750 million a month, and that might get even closer to a billion a month, but in the two months
left, that still leaves billions of dollars unused on the table and equipment that won't be able to go to Ukraine.
The U.S. obviously has to watch its own stockpiles very closely and replenish what it sends, and it's only what it has in excess, effectively
over that sort of baseline, that it's able to send, and that simply doesn't look like it'll be enough to use all of that $6.8 billion.
So, what happens to it? Well, according to one of the officials we spoke with, it'll effectively be up to the incoming Trump administration. Do they
want to stop the flow of weapons entirely? Do they want to stop announcing new military aid packages? That's up to them. And that's why we're looking
so closely to try to get a sense of what is their plan on Ukraine.
President-Elect Donald Trump while on the campaign trail said he could end the war in a day back in summer. He's made it clear to be one of his higher
priorities. The question, and this is what we don't know, Isa, is how?
SOARES: Yes, lots of questions at this point regarding with regard to Ukraine. Meantime, speaking of President-Elect Trump, Oren, he has
nominated Keith Kellogg, a special envoy for Ukraine and Russia. What do we know about him and how may he be received in Ukraine and in Russia here?
LIEBERMANN: So, he's been in the -- this is the retired General Keith Kellogg, has been in that orbit in the first Trump administration. He was
part of the National Security Council. He was the national security adviser to then-Vice President Mike Pence. So, he has been in this orbit and in
these circles.
In terms of what are his ideas on Ukraine as the special envoy for Ukraine and Russia, he put forward a proposal and presented this, according to two
sources familiar with the conversation, to Mike Walsh, the incoming national security adviser. And his idea is roughly to say, look, Ukraine,
we will keep arming you, if you take part in negotiations. If you don't take part in negotiations with Russia, the flow of weapons begin -- the
flow of weapons ends. I'm sorry.
The problem is that's not the only proposal on the table and that's not the only idea that the incoming national security adviser has heard. One of
those who was also being looked at for the special envoy to Russia and Ukraine was Rick Grenell. His idea was creating autonomous zones to try to
end the war. And meanwhile there are others, Isa, who say that Trump might increase the flow of weapons. So, all of these are on the table. The
question really is, what does Trump decide when it comes down to it?
SOARES: Yes. And Kellogg also said, you know, the Ukraine will have little choice but to negotiate, but didn't provide any details when it comes to
security guarantees for Ukraine. So, like you quite rightly said, Oren, more questions than answers at this point.
LIEBERMANN: Absolutely.
SOARES: Appreciate it. Thanks very much, Oren. Good to see you.
And still to come tonight, I sit down with acclaimed author Rumaan Alam to discuss his new book, "Entitlement." That is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:35:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SOARES: Joining us in today's Book Club is Rumaan Alam, the author of "Entitlement." Rumaan, welcome to the show. Great to have you in London.
RUMAAN ALAM, AUTHOR, "ENTITLEMENT": Thank you. It's great to be here.
SOARES: It's a real privilege.
ALAM: Yes, thank you.
SOARES: We love the book. I read the book and I can say I was up until very late last night finishing it.
ALAM: The highest praise. The highest praise.
SOARES: But it's fantastic. And it -- I found it unsettling. I found it provocative. And it centers around Brooke, 33-year-old girl. I wonder if
you could talk to us about the crux of the story and we can then get it going.
ALAM: As you say, it sort of centers on this figure of Brooke, who is a 33-year-old woman, who is kind of failed at her work. She's had a job as a
teacher, hasn't really gone the way she expected to. So, she's taken a new job. And as is so common I think in contemporary life, she has this feeling
that the job will provide her a sense of self. Her new job is at the private family foundation run by an American billionaire who's in his 80s.
He's giving away his fortune before he dies, essentially. And her job is to kind of help him in this task of giving away his earthly fortune.
I think she feels it's this opportunity to do good in the world, which I think is something we all want to do. And the book sort of looks at what
happens when you have an intimate relationship with lots of money and what that can do to the psyche.
SOARES: And he really takes her under his wing. She becomes his protege and she -- he says -- he's a billionaire octogenarian, he says to her --
and I've got a couple of quotes that I want to mention, I think that really stood out and I think that kind of shapes the thinking throughout, which is
he said to her, Brooke, if you don't ask what you owed, who can you blame when you fail to get it? He also tells, demand something from the world,
demand the best, demand it.
And she takes that on board. And we see it shaping her and her thinking and the way that she behaves with others. But then, it kind of all unravels,
starts unraveling, right?
ALAM: The first bit that you read to me distills, I think, what the title is talking about. The quality of entitlement, I think generally we
understand it as a negative connotation.
SOARES: Yes.
ALAM: But it is very close synonyms are not necessarily negative. If you described a young person on your staff here, as ambitious, you'd probably
be singing their praises. If you described them as entitled, you wouldn't be. So, there's a very close tension there.
[14:40:00]
And what we might understand in a man like Asher, a white man who was in his sort of adulthood at midcentury, as ambition or moxie or, you know,
pushiness might look very different when it's worn by a black woman in 2014.
SOARES: Yes. I'm glad you mentioned that because, obviously, the focus is on her, but I feel like I'm judging her more than I'm judging him. And she
battles with this. She battles with her identity.
ALAM: I think she does.
SOARES: Because there is a part, just for our viewers and our listeners understand, that she's trying to find -- to give away his money, right?
ALAM: That's right.
SOARES: For a good cause. And she comes across a charity, I think it's a dancing, music --
ALAM: That's right. It's a dance school. Yes.
SOARES: -- school. And they -- at the beginning, they do not want to be attached. They say, we don't need the money. We're quite happy. And they're
struggling to make it and speed, but there's a simplicity to life. And what ties them all together is the fact that they are black.
ALAM: That's right.
SOARES: But she doesn't see that, she doesn't see -- she doesn't want -- the tribe as you call it.
ALAM: That's right, yes.
SOARES: Why doesn't she see that? Is it because she doesn't see her own identity in light of how she was brought up?
ALAM: I think that is a part of it. But I also think she's taken to heart this advice that Asher has given her, which is that her interest should be
herself, not her identity, not her relationship to other black people, that she should feel fealty only to herself, which is a very -- that's sort of
an American ideal, in a way, of rugged independence and it's also a capitalist ideal, that one should be in pursuit of one's material fortune
at all costs. You know, damn whatever other costs to other people.
SOARES: Yes.
ALAM: And, I don't think I'm describing the world as I want it to be. I think I'm describing the world as it is.
SOARES: As it is, the reality, and I think many people will recognize that. But I also want to talk about what ties your current book,
"Entitlement," to your previous book that the majority of people would know, of course, "Leave the World Behind," which became a very successful
book but also a movie.
And yet, again, in those two books, race and money. I wonder, on a personal note, why you've taken -- why you've picked those two? I mean, you're a New
Yorker, so probably that fits perfectly, but why that is so central to your storytelling, those two things?
ALAM: It's a hard question to answer. I think that artists are drawn to material in -- for so many reasons that they may not even be able to answer
and that the work, the books become a way of working out what I feel.
In the previous book, "Leave the World Behind," there is a lot of play with questions about race and expectations about race and money and class. Those
are also prevalent themes in this new book. But ultimately, I thought of that book not as about those things, but as about parental fear. I really
thought of that book as a book about my own feeling about the kind of world we're leaving to our children. And I had this notion that if I put it into
the book, I could get it out of my head.
We exist in a culture that is about buying and selling. So, when my children were very small and learning how to read, we would be riding the
New York city subway and they would be playing with language by reading the advertisements. So, their first experience with language, which is this
most human and sacred thing is in this language of advertising that's telling them to go to McDonald's and telling them to buy this thing, and
they don't even know what it is they're being told to buy.
Many children their first experience of music or singing along with something is to a Disney commercial or, you know, a song from a film. It's
-- everything is sort of connected back to purchasing.
SOARES: Well, very excited. Fantastic book by the way.
ALAM: Thank you so much.
SOARES: I loved it. The whole team really enjoyed. I also enjoyed the conversation that we had about the big themes in it. Would you do us the
honor of signing it?
ALAM: Absolutely. Absolutely.
SOARES: I'll give you the pen.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SOARES: Snazzy signature too. Our thanks to Rumaan Alam. And there's plenty more to come from our Book Club. In case you were wondering what
some of our favorite CNN correspondents have been reading. We have been asking them. Here's a little clip.
[14:45:00]
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Isa's Book Club and greetings from glorious Miami where the Miami Book Fair is in full
effect. And I am reading this brilliant book called "Connie." It is the memoir of the inimitable Connie Chung. She is one of the original giants of
broadcasting. This book is funny, it's honest, it's bare bones, it's thoughtful. I can't recommend it highly enough.
PLEITGEN: I am currently in Moscow, in Russia. And so, I decided to read a book in Russian. It's called Perdi Kosmichiska Program SSSR (ph), which
means the first space program of the Soviet Union. It's actually really interesting because it talks about how the Russians developed a rocket
program coming from some of the stuff that they got from the Nazi rocket program.
Obviously, when they went into Germany. But then, also, how they tested some of their rockets. One of the things, for instance, that I found out is
that one of the first sites that they launched their rockets from is actually the same place that the Russians just launched a big ballistic
missile towards Ukraine from called Kapustin Yar. So, it's a very interesting book and of course also a language challenge for me as well.
HANAKO MONTGOMERY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Isa's Book Club. I'm Hanako Montgomery. Right now, I'm reading "On Earth We're Briefly Gorgeous" by
Ocean Vuong. It's one of the most painful books I've read in a really long time. It's written as a letter from a Vietnamese American son to his mom
who can't read, and it explores race, Asian American identity, sexuality, generational trauma, and war. It's so beautifully written. I read the first
couple pages and couldn't of put the book down.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SOARES: What a selection right there. Thanks, of course, to what our -- to spending time to tell us what they are reading. Let us know what you are
reading, and you can find more, of course, of what my CNN colleagues are reading, as well as more fascinating interviews with renowned authors on my
Instagram, at @isasoarescnn. You can see the full interviews there. And do get in touch and let us know what you are reading, what you're looking
forward to read in the new year.
Still to come tonight, Australia passes one of the world's toughest social media vans. We'll tell you who it affects, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOARES: Welcome back everyone. A world first in Australia where the Parliament has passed a bill banning social media for users under the age
of 16. The bill passed comfortably in the Senate with backing from both the government and opposition members. The law includes potential fines for
social media companies if they don't take adequate steps to prevent those under 16 from using their services.
[14:50:00]
But not everyone agrees with the ban. Here's what some Australian teens have been saying. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If people all -- people around you have social media and they're always on their phones, you're like, oh, look at this new
trend, look at this new video, then you'll probably feel like, oh, I should have this.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Like left out.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then you'd then like left out, that's when you start feeling sad. When everyone around you also doesn't have it, then it's
like more fun.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's a lot of stuff on social media that does actually motivate me to get outside and be active. There's really good
influencers out there. So, it's not just social media, sitting and scrolling making me happier, it's what it influences me to do.
People feel like they can be more confident on social media because you're behind a screen. But that also means that bully -- bullies can be
confident, and that's not a good thing. They can just go, hey, you're ugly, and not feel anything because it's a text.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Like lots of text messages, when you're like texting someone as well, like on Snapchat or something, you don't hear their voice,
you don't, and you don't know what they mean by it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: So, good to hear from these girls in terms of the concerns that -- you know, that this law will bring them and the concerns they have if this
come -- when it comes into effect. Will Guyatt is a tech journalist with LBC and a former employee of Facebook and Instagram. Will, really
appreciate you being with us on the show.
Look, this certainly happened very quickly, though it's not going to go into effect for some time. But, I mean, how do we know -- what do we know,
I should say, about how this will come into effect? Because I couldn't find much detail on this, Will.
WILL GUYATT, TECH JOURNALIST, LBC: No, the detail is lacking at the moment, and it has certainly been rushed. Because initially, there was
going to be a trial of so-called age verification software in Australia, which piqued my interest, because to my knowledge, none of that actually
exists. So, it's going to be very, very interesting to see what happens here.
The situation we find at the moment, there's no such thing as a foolproof age verification system online. The people offering services are doing age
prediction or age estimation, and those systems have come on a long way in the last couple of years. But even the companies behind them say they're at
about 65 to 70 percent success rate at the moment.
So, if this time in a year, social networks in Australia are going to be given a huge fine for not ensuring all young people are off of social
media, you could imagine that some of the social networks might say we don't want this hassle and Australia will not be the largest market to any
of these platforms. So, it's going to be very interesting to see whether the social networks comply or decide they've had enough and move out of
Australia.
SOARES: And what are the social networks saying? I mean, what are tech companies saying here when it comes to the practicalities and specifically
of age verification, just for clarity for our viewers? Kids can just make up an age, there's no way to verify it, right? So, what else are they
saying that can be done here?
GUYATT: They're saying there can be efforts to estimate age, and they're all behind that, and they're working with a number of companies and
developing their own solutions with A.I. and other ways of getting better and more accurate. But they're saying age verification and age
identification on the internet is a global issue.
Anywhere around the world, no country seems to want to go anywhere near a State I.D. or digital I.D. service, which could, in theory, stop this at a
stroke. Instead, all governments seem to want to point the finger firmly at the social networks. Now, don't get me wrong. I think tech companies have
an awful lot more to do. And being brought to the table to take down unsuitable content, better protect young people, maybe even fund research
into how social media impacts society, all of that stuff should be coming from the tech companies, but I don't necessarily think the tech companies
are entirely guilty for the fact that young people are using it.
SOARES: Yes. And according to this law, according to what I've seen, the owner seems to be entirely on this tech companies. What role then do
parents and government has right here and schools at this stage, if we're not going to see a sort of implementation of a formal digital I.D., which
is what some have been, you know, suggesting here?
GUYATT: Yes, I think the challenge you face here, governments don't like telling families what to do. It's easier to point the finger at the social
networks. Globally, there are some fantastic organizations like Safer Internet Day, Safer Internet Center, all of this kind of places can offer
practical advice to parents and help and support parents who want to have conversations with kids about what they use online. But parents aren't
being looked at in any of these laws. It's being pointed firmly at the social networks.
SOARES: And, Will, look, as a mother of two young boys, it is a minefield. I mean, my eldest is about to be nine. I don't even know where to start. I
don't want to limit his time with -- not social media, with technology, but I don't even know where to start. So, what do you think happens next in the
case of Australia here?
[14:55:00]
GUYATT: Well, I have a six-year-old daughter called Lola, and I've done this job for 20 years, and I still can't answer to my partner how I'm going
to successfully get Lola onto the internet and traverse all of the dangers and issues that it faces. It's something that concerns me greatly.
I think we to have a greater set of conversations, both for schools as society, maybe even get better funding and support from the tech companies
to deal with the problems that are faced. But I think a complete ban, and many people are saying this, is not the answer. And I look forward to
seeing, firstly, how you verify age in Australia and secondly, how you get the genie back in the lamp. Because if you're a 13 year old that's been
using TikTok or Snapchat, you're going to be pretty cheesed off with everybody if you're not going to be able to use it for the next few years
because it's illegal.
SOARES: Yes, and of course, the fear is that some kids will -- when this is enforced, will find other ways, right, find other ways to go online and
who has control then of what they are looking at. Will, really appreciate it and thank you very much.
GUYATT: Thank you.
SOARES: And by the way, love your backdrop in some of the Street Fighter games. Really, really cool. Thanks very much.
GUYATT: Thank you.
SOARES: And that does it for us for tonight. Do stay right here. Newsroom with Richard Quest is up next. Have a wonderful day.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:00:00]
END
