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Isa Soares Tonight
Judge Says Trump Administration's Response on Venezuela Deportations were "Woefully Insufficient"; Europeans Look to Shore Up Support for Ukraine in New Round of Ukrainian Ceasefire Talks; Israel Pushes Ahead with its New Ground Offensive in Gaza. Israel Intercepts Missile from Yemen; Israel Launches Ground Offensive in Gaza; Protests in Istanbul; Trump to Sign Order to Dismantle Department of Education; IOC Picks 10th President. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired March 20, 2025 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
ISA SOARES, HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: A very warm welcome to the show, everyone, I'm Isa Soares. Tonight, a new deadline has come and gone for the
Trump administration to turn over information on its weekend deportation flights. This as Venezuelan families ask where their loved ones are. We'll
bring you the latest on what could be a growing battle between the executive as well as the judiciary.
Plus, meetings in London and Brussels as Europeans look to shore up support for Ukraine, and this comes ahead of more ceasefire talks scheduled between
Russia and the U.S. We have the very latest. Then Israel pushes ahead with its new ground offensive in Gaza. We'll hear from a doctor who is there.
We begin though this hour with what may be a major legal standoff between the White House and a federal judge over deportation flights. In a showdown
that could signal just how far Donald Trump is willing to go to extend his executive authority. A key deadline from U.S. District Judge James Boasberg
passed roughly two hours ago.
The judge once again asked the Justice Department to provide more details about last weekend's deportation of hundreds of alleged gang members from
the U.S. to El Salvador. The Trump administration invoked, if you remember, an obscure 18th century law used to detain or deport nationals of an enemy
nation during war time.
Devastated families meantime, in the United States are pushing back, insisting their loved ones are being wrongly accused. Just have a listen to
a snippet here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAANNELYS PARRA MORILLO, WIFE OF MAN DEPORTED FROM THE U.S. (through translator): The only thing I want, what I wish for, is for investigations
to be conducted before taking people away. That they look into backgrounds so that innocent people aren't taken without reviewing them properly.
Because not everyone is part of the Tren de Aragua. No, not everyone. Even if they have tattoos.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: For more, we're joined now by CNN's Maria Santana. Maria, good to see you. We are starting to hear more and more stories, it seems, of
families in Venezuela and elsewhere seeing their loved ones pretty much on TV or in El Salvador's mega prison. And numerous families now rebuking
President Trump's claims that they -- that their loved ones are monsters, criminals and part of the gang, Tren de Aragua. What are you hearing? Give
us a sense of what families are saying.
MARIA SANTANA, CNN REPORTER: Well, yes, absolutely. The Trump administration, Isa, has shared no information basically about who was
deported and why, and they've shown no evidence of these people's supposed ties with the Venezuelan gang Tren de Aragua. Now, the administration has
said that 137 of the 261 migrants deported to a super-max prison in El Salvador, were deported pursuant to the Alien Enemies Act of 1798, that was
invoked by President Trump over the weekend.
As you said, this is a very rarely used war-time authority that, you know, gives the President extraordinary powers to quickly deport members of an
enemy nation. And what Trump has said is that the Tren de Aragua has invaded the United States, and that it poses a grave threat to the American
people. But the government has so far refused, even after being questioned several times to reveal the identities of these people.
The evidence against those that were deported, and as we've seen, that has upset many family members who say they only learned about what happened to
their loved ones because they recognized them in videos and pictures that were published by the United States and the government of El Salvador on
social media.
And CNN has spoken to some of these families who have had a hard time trying to locate their relatives. They say they just disappeared. The
Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro said that these people were kidnapped, and they also say they have absolutely no ties, their family members to
Tren de Aragua or have committed any crime. Let's listen to what one mother said to us about her son.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct though. They haven't issued anything. They haven't provided any lists. Other people have tried to contact the
government to provide the lists, but they haven't. However, he is not in the United States. I checked in the system, his locator number, and it
doesn't appear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[14:05:00]
SANTANA: And as you said, the administration has even refused to provide more information about the deportations or the flights that carried the
migrants to El Salvador. Two federal district Judge James Boasberg, who is trying to determine whether this government violated his order to
temporarily detain the deportations under the Alien Enemies Act, and requested that all planes carrying these migrants return to the United
States.
The government, the Trump administration has argued that the judge has no right to this information, and that providing it could be a risk to
national security. This is set up this extraordinary legal battle between the President and the judiciary. Trump has even called for the removal of
this judge. But the fact remains, Isa, that the administration themselves, they have admitted that many of these people have no criminal record in the
United States.
There was a filing on Monday where the Justice Department said that the lack of information about the deportees is what makes them dangerous, but
they have no evidence that they have committed a crime. Isa --
SOARES: Indeed, and when they were asked, Maria, when they -- the White House Press Secretary was asked what evidence? She said, tattoos. Well, I
won't play --
SANTANA: Yes --
SOARES: The whole soundbite clip because it's quite long. But basically tattoos was the answer we got. Maria --
SANTANA: Right --
SOARES: Santana, really appreciate it, thank you very much, Maria there, with the very latest from New York. Well, most of the migrants sent by the
-- by the U.S. to El Salvador are Venezuelan as you heard Maria there, prompting Venezuela's leader, Nicolas Maduro to call the deportation a
kidnapping. I want to go to Stefano Pozzebon, who is in Bogota, he knows Venezuela, Caracas, very well. Venezuela, well, he's often there.
So, Stefano, just give us a sense of the reaction to these deportation flights, and what President Maduro is likely to do now. We heard Maria
Santana saying that some of those families, the first instance they saw their loved ones was when they were being paraded and celebrated by Bukele.
STEFANO POZZEBON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, exactly. I mean, I think, Isa, the first reaction is that this practice is allowing an authoritarian leader
like Nicolas Maduro to call out the United States for what he says is human rights abuse. Now, we must notice that Maduro is no stranger to human
rights abuse on his own, given the multiple investigations against him, including from the International Criminal Court.
But it is the language that he used yesterday when addressing these deportation of his fellow countrymen to what he says was a concentration
camp. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICOLAS MADURO, PRESIDENT, VENEZUELA: Those people, for God's sake, we ask you to open President Nayib Bukele's understanding, and not to be an
accomplice to this cruelty that Nayib Bukele, not be an accomplice to this kidnapping, because our boys did not commit any crime in the United States.
None. They were not taken to any trial. They were not given the right to defense, the right to due process. They were deceived, handcuffed, put on a
plane, kidnapped, and sent to a concentration camp in El Salvador.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
POZZEBON: So, Isa, well, the first one is Maduro referring to our boys, to migrants who have effectively fled the catastrophic economic collapse that
the country of Venezuela went through under his rule. But on the other side, we have these back-and-forth even today between Caracas and
Washington, with the western hemisphere assistant Secretary of State tweeting today that he wants Maduro to increase the number of direct
flights of deportation flights from Washington and from the United States back to Venezuela.
And the Venezuelans saying and telling us that they are ready to receive more migrants directly, more deportations directly to Caracas in these quid
pro quo that the administration had previously negotiated with the relief of oil sanctions in exchange for more deportations back to Venezuela.
And so, there is a rhetorical war that at this point, frankly, Isa, seems only to favor both strong men -- strong leaders, both Trump in the United
States and Maduro in Caracas, are taking advantage from their own bases by showing these increasingly authoritarian and frankly opaque practices when
it comes to migration. Isa --
SOARES: Yes, and Maduro did ask Bukele to hand over the Venezuelans deported from the United States. I wonder whether Maduro got any sort of
response from Bukele.
POZZEBON: No, not yet. I mean, we're adding --
SOARES: Yes --
POZZEBON: Yet another leader with authoritarian tendencies and the practice of opaque practices, the preference for opaque practices into the
mix. Bukele only tweeted, "oops, too late, sorry" to when the order from the judge forbidding those flights went out because the flights were indeed
already in the air, and especially in international airspace, so they were already happening and --
SOARES: Yes --
POZZEBON: Almost mocking the U.S. judiciary system. So, we have three leaders, none of whom has a taste for either transparency or for actual
coming through and explaining to us what exactly is going on. But as soon as we hear more, we'll get back to you --
[14:10:00]
SOARES: Absolutely --
POZZEBON: Isa --
SOARES: None of those, of course, stick to international law that we've seen that --
POZZEBON: No --
SOARES: Particularly in the case of Venezuela, and of course, for Bukele, he received $6 million, of course, from the United States for this.
POZZEBON: OK --
SOARES: So, we shall see. Stefano, great to see you, appreciate the context, so important --
POZZEBON: Yes --
SOARES: Right now. Let me bring in Lindsay Toczylowski, she is executive director of Immigrant Defenders Law Center and joins me from Los Angeles.
Lindsay, really appreciate you taking the time to speak to us. I understand from my team that one of your clients -- and correct me if I'm wrong here,
one of your clients is one of those migrants that were shackled that we just played that video, shackled, dispatched to El Salvador. What more can
you tell us about your client in particular here, Lindsay?
LINDSAY TOCZYLOWSKI, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, IMMIGRANT DEFENDERS LAW CENTER: Sure, well, our client, that is correct. We have received confirmation that
our client is in El Salvador, which is shocking because who our client is, is a young professional in their 30s who came to the United States fleeing
political persecution. He's a gay man. He does have tattoos.
And when he lawfully entered the United States through a CBP one appointment, which is the way the government was asking people in 2024 to
enter the United States if they sought to seek asylum. When he did so, he was flagged because of his tattoos and put into an ICE detention center.
His tattoos are not gang tattoos.
He is being baselessly accused of being a member of Tren de Aragua. Again, he's a professional. He's got tattoos that are the same type of tattoos you
might see on anybody at a coffee shop in L.A. or New York or even Wichita, Kansas. These are fairly benign tattoos. And, you know, he's been wrongly
accused, but he does sit tonight and today in El Salvador.
SOARES: And can you just tell us, Lindsay, in terms of your client, when did he arrive fleeing political persecution, of course, Stefano, my
colleague in Venezuela, was adding some of the context, really, of the thousands upon thousands of migrants who left Venezuela and the reason why
they left Venezuela. But explain his legal process then, what stage was he at and how sudden did all this occur?
TOCZYLOWSKI: So, our client arrived in August of 2024, he was fleeing political persecution in Venezuela, so, he arrived to the Tijuana area,
came in through the San Ysidro port of entry through a CBP one appointment. He was in a detention center in the San Diego area. He actually had what's
called a credible fear interview, which is the first step of a process in seeking asylum in the United States.
And he was found credible. He passed that credible fear interview, which meant that his next step was to go before a judge. We were representing him
in that process. He had an application for asylum on file, and in fact, we were supposed to have a hearing last Thursday. ICE had moved him from the
San Diego area, 1,300 miles away to a facility in Texas.
And when we showed up for the hearing on Thursday, our client wasn't brought to court. So, he was not in court by Friday when we started hearing
that the Alien Enemies Act may be invoked, we were desperately searching for our client, and by Saturday, he had disappeared from the online
detainee locator.
We've had no contact with him since the day that he was supposed to have his hearing and was not brought to court, and we only learned of his fate
because, you know, we did not see him in those videos that President Bukele posted. But we were very suspicious that that's where he was. On Monday,
the court hearing had been reset, and when we went into immigration court in San Diego this past Monday, we finally received confirmation from ICE
that our client was indeed in El Salvador.
And when that happened, and they said that to the judge, the judge says, how is that possible? Because he has not been removed. And I simply didn't
have an answer for them. So, the case has been set over once again while we continue to search for answers and be gravely concerned for our client's
safety.
SOARES: And you know, you found out through ICE, but so many families that I've been seeing through our -- through our Latin-American colleagues are
finding out. And I'm going to ask my producer, Julia, to play this video that Bukele has been paying -- playing, right? It's parading these migrants
in these -- in shackles and almost kind of a celebration of this.
Many families from what I have seen, are finding out by seeing this video play out on their television screens. Is that the sense you are getting
from your contacts too, that many families, that's the first time they're coming face-to-face with their loved ones.
[14:15:00]
TOCZYLOWSKI: Absolutely, and it's absolutely shocking to imagine what that must be like, because on Sunday morning, we had to look at those videos and
stop them and pause them and look at the faces to see if we could find our client. I can't imagine doing that if I was looking for my husband or my
son. It's really shocking, the conscious to imagine what this does to these families, but it also demonstrates the complete lack of documentation and
notice and due process that has --
SOARES: Yes --
TOCZYLOWSKI: Been followed here by the U.S. government and the Trump administration. In our case, we just happen to have that hearing coming up
on Monday where in court ICE confirmed that our client was in El Salvador, but we have been given no document. Family has been given no notice. We
have not even been told the circumstances of this forced removal, this forced disappearance to El Salvador, nor about the conditions of
confinement that he is in, in El Salvador.
So, you know, for these families, they are being left excruciatingly in the dark when their loved ones' lives are really at risk.
SOARES: What do you say, Lindsay, to Americans, many who voted for President Trump, who wanted tighter controls of their borders, who wanted
criminals, gang members out of the country. What do you say to those? I know your client is not one of those, but what do you say to those as what
President Trump is doing, what he promised he would do. What is your argument? How do you respond to that?
TOCZYLOWSKI: Our client is a perfect example of what happens when due process is not followed. It means that people every day, you know, citizens
and people who are coming to seek asylum, people who are visiting the United States, a baseless allegation can relegate them to a prison in El
Salvador where their human rights may be violated, where they may be paraded in a propaganda video, where they may be held indefinitely without
any criminal charges against them.
That lack of due process really begs the question, who else could this happen to?
SOARES: Yes --
TOCZYLOWSKI: If the government can simply make an allegation against someone and then send them to a prison in El Salvador, who is next? Our
client is someone who has no criminal history. He has no connection to Tren de Aragua. He has never had any criminal history in Venezuela nor in the
United States. If it can happen to our client, we should have no confidence about the other people who have been --
SOARES: Yes --
TOCZYLOWSKI: Sent in this same situation. That they are, you know, in fact, members of this gang. We have been shown no evidence by the
government, that, that is the case. And really, it should send down -- a chill down the spine --
SOARES: Yes --
TOCZYLOWSKI: Of every single U.S. citizen. People visiting --
SOARES: Indeed --
TOCZYLOWSKI: The United States.
SOARES: Indeed, no, I was going to -- I was going to ask you indeed, given -- especially given the fact that, you know, he's now invoked this 227-
year-old law, right? And what that may mean going forward. But finally here, Lindsay, because we're running out of time. Have you been able to
make contact with your client at all? Have you been given any more information?
What are the next steps here for you and for your client in terms of the legal process? Because we know -- we've seen -- this is playing out via the
courts right now in the United States.
TOCZYLOWSKI: In 15 years of practice, we have never been in a situation like this where we asked ICE, how we could communicate with our client, and
we were told that they will not facilitate communication with our client, and they will not make him available to appear at his next court hearing.
So, we have had no communication. We are in the beginning steps of reaching out to others who may be able to get into contact with our client. We are
looking at the court case that continues in D.C. around this issue --
SOARES: Yes --
TOCZYLOWSKI: But we are in unchartered territory. We are in a situation that we are -- you know, we don't have a game plan for this, but we are
going to continue to fight for our client and others like him, because this has been a gross violation of their human rights.
SOARES: Lindsay, absolutely chilling. Like you said, please keep us posted as soon as you've heard from your client any more information, come back to
my team and let us know. Really appreciate your time. Thanks very much, Lindsay.
TOCZYLOWSKI: Thank you.
SOARES: And still to come tonight, fighting rages on between Ukraine and Russia as EU leaders meet and plan ceasefire talks are set to begin early
next week. Plus, time for talks. The European Union delays retaliatory tariffs on U.S. imports, but for how long? And really what's at stake? We
try to answer both of those questions after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:20:00]
SOARES: Now, to the latest in Russia's war in Ukraine. A ceasefire talks between the U.S. and Russia are planned early next week in Saudi Arabia.
Moscow and Kyiv both accuse each other of attacks overnight. Among the reported targets, residential buildings in Ukraine and Russian military
airfields. This, of course, a day after Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy spoke with Donald Trump about a ceasefire and a phone call
between Trump -- and President Trump and Russian leader Vladimir Putin of course, on Tuesday.
Today, Mr. Zelenskyy was shoring up allied support in Norway, meeting with its Prime Minister and appearing on a video call before an EU meeting in
Brussels. The Ukrainian leader has been shedding light on his call with President Trump. He's also urging allies to keep the pressure on Russia and
asking for more military equipment funding as their so-called Coalition of the Willing.
A group of allies pledges to help defend Ukraine against Russia. They have been meeting under the direction of British Prime Minister Keir Starmer.
Let's get more on all these threads. Our Sebastian Shukla joins me now from Berlin. And Seb, good to see you. There has been -- there have been plenty
of meetings, plenty of meetings.
Give us a sense on this Coalition of the Willing. Do we have a better sense of the make-up of this coalition, Seb, and what they're putting forward?
SEBASTIAN SHUKLA, CNN PRODUCER: Yes, we don't know what the coalition is going to look like yet, but we know that Britain and France in particular
are really driving this at the moment. They're meeting in the U.K. this evening, which is a closed -- behind closed doors meeting. So, we won't
really understand or know what is going to be said or even decided there.
But what it has -- what it is coming at a time where Zelenskyy today has been on this tour de force again of Europe, he was addressing European
leaders, and he was also in the -- in the Norwegian capital of Oslo. I want to start with Europe because I think what is important there is, Zelenskyy
has been calling again for weapons to be delivered to Ukraine.
Increasingly important, it seems, as President Trump seems to be looking to step back from that. And so, European allies are going to become very
important. He spent today asking the European Union to make sure that they pass this extra 5 billion euros of spending to procure artillery shells for
Ukraine, which they can send.
And then obviously, at the moment in Europe, Isa, that's a very hot topic. Spending on defense and military spending is through the roof. I mean, here
in Germany, for example, they're about to pass a huge spending package to unlock decades needed military hardware and shells to be -- to be procured.
And Ursula von der Leyen, the EU Commission President has also said that, you know, she wants to spend 800 billion euros on defense in the coming
years.
So, that was his message. But we also started to get a little bit more of a flavor about some of those talks and conversations that Donald Trump had
with the Ukrainian President too. I want you to take a listen to what President Zelenskyy had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT, UKRAINE: Yesterday, I had a productive conversation with President Trump. From the very beginning, Ukraine has
been advocating for what we are discussing now, an end to attack on energy and infrastructure and ceasefire at sea, and we continue to support these
efforts.
[14:25:00]
Our teams will also work towards achieving an unconditional full ceasefire on land. Please support this. Putin must stop making unnecessary demands
that only prolong the war and must start fulfilling what he promises the world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHUKLA: And so, hopefully, President Zelenskyy will start to get a better idea of what these negotiations may look like. This negotiation and talks
which will take place in Saudi Arabia over the next weekend, will hopefully add a little more flesh on the bones to this ceasefire proposal. What
Zelenskyy said today actually is that Ukrainians will be in Saudi Arabia.
They are not going to be in the room negotiating with the Russians and the Americans, but that a form of shuttle diplomacy will likely take place
where obviously, the Americans will talk with the Ukrainians, Ukrainians will outline their issues, and then, in theory, the Americans will then
relay those to the Russians.
So, we will have to see exactly how those negotiations play out. It's important to say that they're working level negotiations, this isn't high
level talks we are expecting here. You know, Marco Rubio is not going, Sergey Lavrov and certainly not the two Presidents in particular. So, we
will wait to see, Isa, exactly what this happens.
And obviously, these attacks that you mentioned earlier keep happening on either side of the border, and it's something that both sides have said
they want to see an end to, Isa.
SOARES: Indeed, Sebastian Shukla there for us this hour in Berlin. Thank you very much, sir, appreciate it. And we're going to stay in Europe
because the European Union is holding off for new retaliatory tariffs on U.S. goods. The tariffs on products like American Whiskey had been set to
take effect on April 1st, but will now be delayed until the middle of the month.
Well, Europe and the U.S.-negotiated tariffs were announced, if you remember, in response to President Donald Trump's plan to levy a 25 percent
tariff on steel and aluminum coming into the United States. Still to come tonight, Israel is launching another ground-offensive in Gaza, this time in
the north of the enclave. We'll have a live update on the escalating situation there. That's next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:30:00]
SOARES: We have some news just coming out of Israel, really, that, where officials are saying that at least one missile launched from Yemen has been
intercepted. And this comes amid a renewed offensive by Israel in Gaza after a ceasefire with Hamas collapsed. Sources say a third night of
Israeli strikes has killed at least 85 people and injured many more. Hamas has also started launching rockets at Israel again for the first time since
the truce collapsed.
Let's get the very latest. Jeremy Diamond is in Tel Aviv for us. So, Jeremy, what more to -- bring us up today with the very latest on this
missile that was intercepted from Yemen?
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right. About an hour ago, a missile was fired, another ballistic missile, the second one
today from Yemen towards Central Israel, this time setting off air raid sirens in Jerusalem. The Israeli military said that it was indeed
intercepted by Israel's air defense systems outside of Israeli airspace, but nonetheless, those sirens going off in the event of falling projectiles
to keep people safe from that.
Of course, this marks the second time today that the Houthis have now fired at Israel as the United States also expands its attacks on Houthi targets
inside of Yemen and as Israel has restarted its military operations in Gaza, prompting this response from the Houthis.
SOARES: And in the meantime, and I'm just looking at the latest news coming in, in the meantime it seems on the ground, Jeremy, very little it
seems has changed. Palestinians -- I've seen video today of Palestinians fleeing yet again. I've seen protests on the streets of Israel, protests
clearly incensed and back on the streets. And Netanyahu continuing to really fight on. Bring us up to date with what's happening, first of all,
in Gaza.
DIAMOND: Yes, that's right. The Israeli prime minister is showing no signs of changing course here as the Israeli military continues to expand not
only its airstrike campaign in Gaza, which has killed at least 85 people just today alone, bringing the death toll in Gaza over just the last 48
hours or so to over 500 people who have been killed, at least 200 of whom are children, according to the Palestinian ministry of health.
But we are also now seeing an expansion of Israeli military ground operations, not yet that kind of all out invasion of Gaza happening once
again, but targeted ground operations happening in several different parts of the Gaza Strip.
Yesterday, we saw Israeli troops pushing back into that Netzarim Corridor, which separates Northern Gaza from the rest of the Strip, going until about
the center of that corridor. Now, today, we've also learned that Israeli troops have pushed in along the coastal road in north western -- in the
northwestern part of the Gaza Strip as well, signaling a potential encirclement of Northern Gaza, something that has happened in the past, of
course, as well.
And now, just moments ago, the Israeli military also confirmed Israeli military ground troops operating in Southern Gaza as well, in a refugee
camp that is part of the Rafah governorate in the southern part of the Gaza Strip.
And so, once again, you can kind of see as the Israeli military is laying the groundwork for what will likely be a much larger ground operation, one
that could involve as many as 50,000 Israeli troops going back into combat in Gaza.
We know, of course, that the mediators have been furiously working to try and revive this ceasefire, to try and bring a new proposal to the table
that would see Hamas release additional hostages and that could perhaps convince Israel to hold up on this return to war and allow a ceasefire to
once again have another chance for at least perhaps another month or so. Isa.
SOARES: Let's hope so. Jeremy Diamond there for us in Tel Aviv. Thanks, Jeremy. Well, doctors are telling CNN that the conditions in Gaza's
hospitals right now are like nothing they've ever experienced, with wards overflowing, no beds for the injured, and very few medications with which
to treat them.
Dr. Tanya Haj-Hassan is a pediatric intensive care doctor working at Nasser Hospital in Southern Gaza. For our own safety, she wasn't able to join us
live, but she sent us this audio recording of what she's seeing on Gaza's hospital wards. I want you to listen to this.
[14:35:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. TANYA HAJ-HASSAN, VOLUNTEER MEDICAL AID FOR PALESTINIANS EMERGENCY HOSPITAL TEAM: Today was a really rough day because we've started to
realize the magnitude of what everybody's lost in the last couple of days in terms of loved ones amongst.
The patients we're looking after in the pediatric ICU, we've discovered today that the little girl -- little infant's mother died in the airstrike.
The girl next to her is two sisters died in the airstrike. Her mother finally came to visit and she was injured, limping with some injuries to
her face as well. Her father is more severely injured, but both her sisters were killed in the same airstrike, and she's been sustained a head injury
that's paralyzed the right side of her body.
And then, just coming back from rounding in the intensive care unit, I receive a message to say that my good friend, one of the anesthetists here,
just lost his father and his brother in an airstrike and that his sister and cousin were in critical condition. We later found out that his cousin,
who's also closest to him in age, and his best friend, they live together was also killed, and his sister sustained an injury to her C spine. So,
she'll -- is unable to move her arms or legs. So, essentially paralyzed from the neck down.
This same anesthetist lost 24 members of his family at the start. So, a year and a half ago about -- including his mother, his sisters, and many
other members of his extended family. I just don't know how you cope without much loss.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: And our thanks to Dr. Tanya Haj-Hassan who is at Nasser Hospital for sending us that short clip. We'll try of course to get her on, but
important -- so important for us to hear what's happening on the ground.
I want to leave Gaza for just a moment and turn our attention to Turkey, because protesters are turning out for a second night in Istanbul after the
arrest of a key rival of Turkey's president. We brought you that story yesterday. I believe these are live pictures coming to us from Istanbul.
It's 9:37 in the evening. Have a look at the scenes. Large crowds in Turkey's largest city. Istanbul's mayor, for context here, Ekrem Imamoglu,
was widely expected to be a candidate in the next presidential election.
Critics of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan said the arrest is part of his plan to hold on to power. And what you are seeing is thousands of Turks
turning up to the streets again, despite a four-day ban on street gatherings. This -- the people of Turkey standing up. And protesting over
what they have seen in the last 24 hours, also despite, of course, the ban. We are going to keep our eyes on these live pictures. Any developments, of
course, we'll bring it to you.
But clearly, protest is there, turning their backs on this ban and standing up for Istanbul's mayor, Ekrem Imamoglu. We will bring you the very latest
once we know we have any more details. But clearly, anger, very palpable there on the streets off Istanbul.
And still to come tonight, we will speak with historian David Olugosa about what history can teach us about this time of global political upheaval.
There are a lot of lessons to be learned. I hope it could make sense for us. That's next.
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[14:40:00]
SOARES: Welcome back, everyone. President Trump is set to sign an executive order dismantling the Department of Education in about an hour or
so. The move fulfills what has been a campaign promise. Shutting the department completely would require an act of Congress. However, officials
tell CNN the president set to instruct his newly installed education secretary to facilitate the department's closure and give authority to the
states.
Another target of the Trump administration education overhaul comes at a university level. Something we discussed on the show. Higher education
providers and their students left really facing extraordinary as well as uncertain -- uncertainty over their future.
A Georgetown University fellow has been detained by the Department of Homeland Security. The Indian national's visa was revoked. DHS saying he
was spreading -- and I'm quoting them here, "Spreading Hamas propaganda and promoting anti-Semitism."
Meanwhile, Columbia University graduate Mahmoud Khalil, we reported on here on the show as well, remains in prison. The Palestinian activist and green
card holder was arrested two weeks ago, accused of supporting Hamas. Khalil is awaiting his next court hearing and says he's a political prisoner.
And earlier this week, we saw a Brown University doctor deported to Lebanon. Federal agents reportedly found photos of a former Hezbollah
leader on her phone. That deportation was in defiance of a court order.
Meantime, universities including Columbia, Cornell, and Brown are now warning students to avoid traveling both internationally and even
domestically as they face the risk of deportation.
And this crackdown on free speech is aimed at more than just individual students. The Trump administration cancelled more than $400 million dollars
in grants to Columbia University, demanding a reform of admission policies and a more aggressive approach disciplining students who protest. Columbia
has signaled it will comply with the request.
The retired former president of that university, meantime, Lee Bollinger, writing this week that, quote, "We're in the midst of an authoritarian
takeover."
Joining me now is historian David Olusoga whose brand-new podcast "Journey Through Time" is out across all podcast platform today and he joins me now.
David, great to have you on the show.
There is so much for us to talk about right now with this administration. Let me start off on the education and exactly the point that the former
professor of Columbia, head of -- dean of Columbia was saying there in terms of what this means an authoritarian takeover, an attack on free
speech. Do you agree with that? What we're seeing across the United States right now?
DAVID OLUSOGA, HISTORIAN AND BROADCASTER AND CO-HOST, "JOURNEY THROUGH TIME" PODCAST: I think it would be very difficult to come up with a phrase
more accurate. This is -- these are actions, these are restrictions that are inimicable to the workings -- the free workings of a university in a
democracy.
SOARES: How then do you fight against this? Because many of the universities that we are talking about, I think Columbia has something like
24,000 international students. Already the dean -- the Immigration Rights Clinic there, I'm going to quote them here, "Now -- the students are
saying, they're now terrified about what may happen to them." They've been told to keep a low profile.
Meantime, the British government, the German government, warning people, advisories, travel advisories, saying, you know, be careful where you're
going to the United States. I mean, I never thought I'd be hearing this sort of advisories to a country that you think is the leader of the free
world.
[14:45:00]
OLUGOSA: I think it is important, as you say, to take a step back and remember that this is happening in the world's oldest democracy, that these
actions that we are used to reporting and hearing being reported from authoritarian states, from non-democracies, from nations that have no
pretense at democracy or the rule of law or the freedom of speech, these are a set of actions, a set of attitudes, a set of government edicts that
don't happen in healthy functioning democracies.
Now, I'm not saying America is not a functioning democracy. I'm saying these are steps away from that position.
SOARES: Is this a patient then on kind of life support? Are we starting to see if we take -- I mean, how would you characterize what we are seeing
right now? Because your podcast, your new podcast releases today. In one of its first episodes, I saw a little clip of it, talks about the concept of
America First. Actually, I didn't know where it originated from.
First, tell us about that, where it originated from, because that is, of course the -- you know, President Trump has very much taken that term, but
he wasn't the first to coin the term. And what do you think we're likely to see from him with the intention of that term?
OLUGOSA: America First is a term that is current within American history. It first emerges back in the 1850s with a nativist party. It reemerges in
the First World War, and this is the story we tell in our podcast, with President Wilson at the moment when America's -- the great waves of
immigration meant that there were questions about the loyalties of Americans, and Americans were asked by Wilson if they put America first.
It then reemerged in the 1920s and then it has, in our own time, emerged yet again. It's a phrase and an ideology and nativist mindset that has
periods of dormancy and periods of activity. We are now in another period when this idea, this nativist idea, this -- that demands loyalty, demands
statements of loyalty, demonstrations of loyalty, and creates a sense of us and them, insiders and outsiders. We're in another one of those phases in
America's history.
My co-host Sarah Churchwell has written a long book, "Behold America," about exactly this history and the term and its teleology.
SOARES: And it's interesting the way you frame that because we're now seeing exactly that, extending even to the -- their closest ally, I'm
thinking here, of Canada. You know, wanting to be the 51st state. We've seen attacks -- well, wanting Greenland, wanting the Panama Canal. In fact,
I think we've got a little clip of everything he said that he wants. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: The U.S. will take over the Gaza Strip.
We're flying over a thing called the Gulf of America.
So, I think Canada is going to be a very serious contender to be our 51st state.
Greenland is a wonderful place. We need it for international security.
China is operating the Panama Canal and we didn't give it to China, we gave it to Panama and we're taking it back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you assure the world that as you try to get control of these areas, you are not going to use military or economic coercion?
TRUMP: No.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: How would you frame them? I mean, is this 21st century colonialism here?
OLUGOSA: One of the elements that people had said was missing from Trump's doctrine that meant that it was irresponsible to just to compare him to the
government that emerged in Europe and the regimes of the 1930s was the idea of colonial territorial expansion. Well, that missing element is here
demonstrated.
It is comforting to imagine that this is rhetoric. I think a very large number of us want to think that this is done for attention, this is about
headlines, we are reminded that President Trump comes from a television background and it's about an attention economy. I fear that's something
we're telling ourselves because it allows us to not be as fearful as I believe we should be.
We've lived our whole lives in a post-war world in which one of the things that -- not entirely, but largely disappeared from human interactions was
annexations, conquest, and invasions.
SOARES: Yes, yes.
OLUGOSA: If you look at the period before the Second World War, the period before 1945, it is characterized by regular invasions, conquests,
annexations. We may be on a pivot point, a hinge moment in history, when we're returning to that being part of human interaction.
SOARES: And I'm thinking, you know, of all the people in Ukraine, who for three years have been fighting, wanting to end this war. Now, they're
talking about, according to the Trump administration, David, of dividing up assets. I'm thinking of the people in Palestine where this administration
has put out an A.I. video, which we'll not play, that shows what they see as the Riviera of the Middle East.
[14:50:00]
I mean, what lessons can leaders learn from history about the fall of empires, about this sort of rhetoric, and what may come if they continue
down this path?
OLUGOSA: Well, I think the first thing to say, and it's not being said enough, is people have already died because of the policies of the Trump
administration. There are Ukrainians, there are people in the Middle East who have died because of these policies. This is already a fatal, lethal
administration.
The bigger more consequential question for the future, for -- where this might lead us is we have so relied on America at being a center of the
thing that we used to use a phrase that already feels out of date, the free world. That whole idea of a free world, of democracies being akin with one
another, being allies, seeing each other as part of a global system.
SOARES: Yes.
OLUGOSA: If that collapses then we're in a world that was like the sort of 20th century where there are the democracies and then there are the
authoritarian states. What is notable about the past few weeks is how much sucker this has given to other authoritarian movements, other authoritarian
leaders.
The 1930s was a period in which those governments, those regimes supported one another. Sometimes militarily, sometimes ideologically, sometimes in
terms of treaties and alliances. When you have a world of democracies in a world of authoritarian states, it's very difficult to see how these two
systems subsist and survive alongside one another.
SOARES: And this was what Ruth Ben-Ghiat and also Maria Ressa told me just last week, is that, you know, they're looking on -- at the world's
supposedly biggest economy and the free world and seeing what they can -- what he's getting away with.
OLUGOSA: Yes.
SOARES: Can we do the same?
OLUGOSA: Yes. And hers is a brilliant book and I think she makes an absolutely --
SOARES: Oh, fantastic. It's a great book.
OLUGOSA: Brilliant.
SOARES: David, really appreciate it. All the best of luck. Great to see you.
OLUGOSA: Thank you very much.
SOARES: Thank you very much for coming in. And a reminder, of course, the first two episodes of "Journey Through Time" are available now. You can
find them wherever you stream your podcasts as well as on YouTube. We all know that history -- we know the history more now more than ever.
And still to come tonight, the International Olympic Committee has chosen its 10th president. We'll tell you the big firsts, of course, that come
with this choice. Of course, the first, being a woman. That's next.
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[14:55:00]
SOARES: The votes are in and the International Olympic Committee has chosen its first woman president. Kirsty Coventry was picked over six
others to be the IOC's 10th president. At 41 years old, the former Olympic medalist for Zimbabwe will also be the youngest ever IOC president. More
than 100 members took part in the voting in the coastal Greek resort of Costa Navarino. Coventry will take over when current President Thomas Back
steps down on June 23rd. A huge congratulations to her.
Now, sharing meals and having social connections. Those are two key factors that impact wellbeing, according to the world happiness report released
today. Finland tops the ranking as the world's happiest country for the eighth year in a row with other Nordic countries following close behind.
Meanwhile, the U.S. falls to its lowest ever position at spot 24. Released on World Happiness Day, the report found that strangers are twice as kind
as people expect.
And another reason to smile today. Spring has officially sprung in the Northern Hemisphere, with blossom beginning to bloom from Japan to
Washington, D.C.
That does it for us for tonight. Do stay right here. Newsroom with the happiest/grumpiest anchor on CNN, Max Foster is up next. He's going to kill
me.
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