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Isa Soares Tonight
Heathrow Airport Shutdown Triggers Global Travel Chaos; Federal Judge And Trump Administration To Face Off Over Deportation Flights To El Salvador; President Trump Says New F-47 Fighter Jet Will Be Built By Boeing; Heathrow Flights Resume After Fire Triggers Major Shutdown; Israeli Government Votes To Dismiss Internal Security Chief; Ukraine And Russia Trade Aerial Assault Attacks; Man's Quest To Show U.S. Social Security Administration He's Alive. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired March 21, 2025 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
CHRISTINA MACFARLANE, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Hello and welcome, I'm Christina Macfarlane in London in for Isa Soares who is off tonight.
MAX FOSTER, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: And I'm Max Foster at Heathrow Airport just outside London, usually Europe's busiest airport. But not today, no
flights running whatsoever, causing triggering chaos really worldwide as it plugs into a global system which just hasn't worked today.
It was shut down on Friday after a fire at a substation knocked out the entire power system here, and that outage caused a massive disruption for
global travel. Here's what one stranded passenger told CNN's Zain Asher after her flight from Delhi to London had to turn around mid-flight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUCY ADLER, STRANDED PASSENGER: I'm a mum and I've got two young kids, so I was just desperate to kind of get home to them.
ZAIN ASHER, CNN: Of course --
ADLER: My plan was supposed to be -- I'd be home in time to pick them up from school today, and obviously that didn't work out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: Anna Stewart has been here watching this chaos unfold, and it's a pretty ridiculous story, really.
ANNA STEWART, CNN REPORTER: Well, there was a fire at an electrical substation kind of near Heathrow in the Haye's(ph) direction, and the
backup to that didn't work. And as a result of that, not only is Heathrow Airport out of power, but it has disrupted global travel and some 200,000
passengers.
FOSTER: We just heard from the chief executive, and he was questioned about that. He said it's an outside problem, but if the backup doesn't work,
there isn't a backup. And that's a problem, isn't it?
STEWART: And this has been a big criticism from the director general of IATA, Willie Walsh, who said how could there be one sort of single point of
failure here? Now, there are actually -- we now learn from this interview with the chief executive of Heathrow Airport, there are three electrical
substations, one was the one on fire. The backup to that didn't work.
There were two others that can power Heathrow Airport, but Max, to -- you have to restructure the power for them to be able to be used, which means
they aren't really decent backups.
FOSTER: But he's saying this as if it's not under his control. But when you scenario a plan, you say to yourself, how do these backup systems work? And
he's saying it's out of his control, but surely it's in your control when you have to manage the risk.
STEWART: The fire was out of their control, whether or not Heathrow Airport can do more to build in resilience --
FOSTER: Yes --
STEWART: And not rely on a single source of power in the future, I guess that remains to be seen. They'll be investigating, of course, also how the
fire began in the first place.
FOSTER: OK, we've got the CEO of Heathrow speaking, the interview that Anna was referring to.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THOMAS WOLDBYE, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, HEATHROW AIRPORT: What happened around midnight last night was obviously that we lost a major part of our
power supply. And I'd like to stress that this is -- has been an incident of major severity. It's not a small fire. We have lost power equal to that
of a mid-sized city.
And our backup systems have been working as they should, but they are not sized to run the entire airport. This is unprecedented. It's never happened
before. And that's why I'm saying it has been a major incident. Of course, everybody has been shocked, but all our procedures have been working the
way they should.
I hope people appreciate that we do not close down the airport unless we have severe safety concerns. That's why we do it. And that's what has
happened today. We have been working tirelessly to get the operation back into running. And that's what's now happening. Contingencies of certain
sizes, we cannot guard ourselves against 100 percent.
And this is one of them. This has been a major incident. I mean, short of anybody getting hurt, this is as big as it gets for our airport. And we are
actually coming back quite fast I would say when you consider the amount of systems that we have to shut down, then bring back up and make sure that
they're safe.
It's fueling systems, it's bridges, it's escalators, elevators, you know, all of these systems have to be brought back up, tested to make sure
they're safe and put into operation. Well, there are backup suppliers. We have three of these substations, each of them has a backup transformer. The
backup transformer in this case also went.
And then we have to restructure the supply. So, we're not out of power, but we have to restructure the power -- our power supply. To do that, we have
to close down systems. That is safety procedures we will not go around that. When we do that, and we did that very -- during night. We got our
power back in the morning.
We then start to safely restart the airport. That is a major operation. We're talking thousands of systems that have to be restarted and tested
before we can safely open the airport, and that just takes time.
[14:05:00]
Our backup systems have worked the way they should. Our crisis management has worked the way it should, but this just takes time when we have an
incident of this major severity. That's not how our structure works and we don't have liabilities in place.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FOSTER: OK, so what you're looking at now is the first flight or some movement we've seen all day here at Heathrow Airport. As we understand it,
this isn't full of passengers yet. They -- what they're trying to do is re- arrange the whole system to get the planes back in position so they can restart the system.
So, this is a plane that's been brought in to try to get passengers back out at the airport. Anna, just to explain what's going to be happening
tonight, because there is some -- they're trying to get it back up and running, but in a very limited way.
STEWART: So, we know that there are eight long haul flights that will be taking off from Heathrow Airport tonight. These are British Airways long-
haul flights. It's very limited. And we're going to see a few more planes arriving from places like Gatwick as they try and get aircraft where
they're supposed to be for the grand reopening tomorrow.
And Heathrow Airport is expecting a full operational schedule tomorrow, and we actually know that some airlines in the U.S., like United are actually
going to be taking off today by the end of the day so that their flights will be landing here tomorrow. So, everything is kind of in position, of
course, some 100 flights Max, were actually in the air when Heathrow Airport was closed.
Those flights had to be diverted, some to other U.K. airports like Gatwick, but some across Europe. So, there are some planes that are very much in the
wrong place right now.
FOSTER: OK, let's speak to Richard Quest who's been affected by this as well. He travels all the time and he can explain about the airport. But I
just wanted to ask you, first of all, Richard, what you thought of the chief executive's comment that the system worked and that, you know, he
didn't feel as if they had done anything wrong, but the system plainly didn't work, did it?
RICHARD QUEST, CNN BUSINESS EDITOR-AT-LARGE: Well, most of his explanation was why it's taking so long to get things moving again and get the systems
up and running again. And he's quite right on the issue of the question of safety and making sure you know, these are complex systems, once they shut
down, they are not easily restarted.
But to address the difficult issue, why did the power fail in the first place? Why did the backup fail? Why wasn't there a backup to the backup and
so on. Willie Walsh has already criticized it. He's the head of IATA, the airline aviation body. So, I've been ringing around other airline CEOs, and
their view is basically the same, amateurs is how one person described it.
It shouldn't have happened. They should have had backup on the backup on the backup. And even if part of the airport had failed, why did the whole
airport have to fail? So, the industry itself is not sympathetic to this view from Heathrow, is that you can't have built enough redundancy. They
say it's a mid-sized city electrical power that failed, but they should have done better recognizing the importance of the infrastructure to the
United Kingdom.
FOSTER: And just talk to us about how fundamental this airport is to the system, because they say it's going to be up and running tomorrow. But the
delays are going to --
MACFARLANE: Yes --
FOSTER: Last for days, aren't they? And that -- you know, they've got to clear the backlog.
QUEST: You have to clear it. First of all, you've got to get the planes in the right place. I am lucky, I'm stranded here in Sao Paulo, hey, lucky to
be in such a gorgeous place to be stranded. But my plane is here and my plane is scheduled to leave tonight, now at 23:40. But all those other
planes have to get to the right place, then get to their destination, then pick up those days passengers, because it's a rolling sequence, Max.
Each day brings an entirely new raft, hundreds of thousands of passengers. And then you've got the ones that were delayed, and you can't put the ones
delayed on the later planes because then you're just creating more problems. Now, the computer systems, the recovery, the network recovery
computer systems are very complex, and they know how to do it.
One other big point to mention, Max, care and comfort. Whilst this is clearly extraordinary circumstances, and the airlines will not have to pay
EU or U.K. 261 compensation, they will have to pay the airlines care and comfort. So, my hotel bill here in Sao Paulo, my meals, my taxi to-and-from
the airport, I will be sending the bill to the airline because under the law, they have to pay it.
[14:10:00]
FOSTER: OK, Richard, good luck getting back, as you say, at least you're stuck in Sao Paulo and you can still work because you've got your system
set up there. But let's speak to AyJay Mulholland, a passenger who -- AyJay, I think you're stuck in Orlando. Is that right?
AYJAY MULHOLLAND, STRANDED PASSENGER: Yes, we're from Orlando, we were supposed to be going to London for the weekend to see a play, and we were
at the gate when we heard the news that it broke down. So, our next two flights were also canceled, and so now we're going to JFK for the weekend.
We're going to go to New York City, make the most of it.
FOSTER: What? Yes, well, you've got to make the most of it, haven't you? But have the airlines been helpful? I mean, what information have you had?
MULHOLLAND: Yes, yes and no. I mean, they were helpful in trying to get us rebooked. We ended up getting a flight for the next day, which again got
canceled. And at that point, we gave them a list of other cities we were willing to go to across Europe, and they basically said, sorry, everyone
else is also trying to get out, you're kind of out of luck.
And because we were only going for such a short period of time, we decided that our trip wasn't really worth it. So, we decided to stay domestic
instead. At this point in time, we haven't received any compensation other than the difference between our first flight and our second flight, which
even in the midst of rebooking that flight, the number kept going down like from hundreds of dollars to, I think we ended up getting $75 back. So, it's
going to be an ongoing conversation for sure.
FOSTER: Yes, well, there's a big debate on who is going to pay what here. We're -- you know, the chief executive of Heathrow saying, you know,
liability doesn't lie with him, but there's going to be a big argument about that. But it's people like you who are going to suffer because you're
waiting for this compensation, which you obviously deserve.
But I just want to ask you, what went through your mind when you found out about this fire and why your whole trip has been thrown into chaos?
MULHOLLAND: Yes, sorry to hear anything. We're at the airport right now -- but it was crazy. I was actually in the restroom when the news broke, and
when I came back out, my friend was like, hey, did you hear? And I'm like, what are you talking about? And everyone around us, we were just laughing
because we were in disbelief, and everyone was pulling up their phones and showing the photos of the fire.
And none of us could believe it. Like we were making jokes for like an hour, hour and a half until they finally canceled our flight. And then it
kind of settled upon everyone like, oh, this is real, like, what are we going to do? Everyone else is stranded -- luckily, the gate, everyone
remained very calm, very like empathetic to the situation -- what are you going to do?
I mean, we're not the only flight that was affected. There's thousands and thousands and thousands of people. So, right now, we're just kind of
rolling with the punches. There's nothing you can get too mad about because I mean, who really is in control of this?
FOSTER: Lots of people in the industry here worried about the reputation of Heathrow and, you know, British transport. You know, as someone outside the
U.K., do you think the reputation has been damaged a lot here?
MULHOLLAND: I wouldn't say so. I know someone mentioned earlier like, oh, there should have been a backup to the backup. But like how do you plan for
these things to happen? I mean, this is definitely not going to affect my future travels, I would still love to go back to London one day and do the
things I was so excited to do this weekend.
An incident like this is obviously a huge catastrophic mistake, but it's not like it was something intentional, you know what I mean? And people are
going to be doing their best to getting it fixed. So, I can't blame someone for doing their best in a bad situation.
FOSTER: OK, Ayjay, thank you so much for joining us, I'm glad it wasn't completely ruined for you. Christy, I think a lot of other people around
the world are in a much more difficult position, obviously, they had to get somewhere, they couldn't get there, and when Ayjay says it wasn't
intentional, actually, you know, there is a police investigation into this, we still don't know how that fire was started.
MACFARLANE: Yes, it's nice to hear an optimistic note, isn't it, Max? But certainly, a lot of very angry people globally around the world at the
moment. Thanks very much. Now from Heathrow, Max, we'll be back with you at the half hour. But just ahead, the Trump administration faces a federal
judge over its use of a war-time law used to deport alleged gang members.
Will the U.S. government now be allowed to treat anyone as an enemy alien? Plus, Elon Musk meets with top Pentagon officials. What the President and
the Defense Secretary are saying about that meeting.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:15:00]
MACFARLANE: This hour, we're expecting a critical hearing in the legal showdown between the Trump administration and a federal judge over the
deportation of hundreds from the U.S. to El Salvador, the result of which could have huge implications for the U.S. moving forward. The two sides
will be face-to-face for the first time since President Trump called for the impeachment of Judge James Boasberg.
The judge wants to hear from an official involved in cabinet-level discussions over the decision to try to invoke what's known as the state
secret's privilege. Trump officials argue the flights were carried out under the century's old Alien Enemies Act. A short time ago, the President
once again argued that he has the constitutional authority to order the deportations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They're tough people. They're bad people. We don't want them in our country. We can't let a judge say
that he wants them. You know, he didn't run for president, he didn't get much more than 80 million votes. And we just can't let that happen. It
would be so bad for our country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACFARLANE: Well, President Trump also pushed back on claims from families of some of the deportees that their relatives were not gang members and
were not properly vetted before being sent to a Central American prison.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TRUMP: Well, I was told that they went through a very strong vetting process, and that, that will also be continuing in El Salvador. And if
there's anything like that, we would certainly want to find out. But these were -- these were a bad group. This was a bad group, and they were in bad
areas and they were with a lot of other people that were absolutely killers and murderers, and people that were really bad, with the worst records
you've ever seen.
And -- but we will continue that process, absolutely. We don't want to make that kind of a mistake.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MACFARLANE: Well, we're joined now by former federal prosecutor Amy Lee Copeland, she's currently a Criminal Defense and Appellate attorney. Thank
you so much for joining us. Obviously, this is a hugely consequential hearing set to get underway in, I think roughly about 15 minutes from now.
Just give us an overview first, if you would, of what we should be watching for in this hearing, and what you're expecting to hear.
AMY LEE COPELAND, CRIMINAL DEFENSE & APPELLATE ATTORNEY: This is going to be an interesting hearing, Christina, to say the very least. We have an
angry federal judge that accuses the federal government of flouting his order deliberately by putting people on planes and ignoring an order not to
put them on planes.
The judge has asked very basic questions. Who was on this plane? How many people? When did the plane leave? When did the people leave U.S. custody?
And hasn't been able to get answers from the federal government? As you noted earlier, the federal government has said this is part of state secret
we can't tell you.
But the judge has taken, I think kind of an unprecedented approach to this and said, listen, we need a cabinet-level member here who was in on the
discussions to talk to me about this. This all gets to the rule of law, Christina, which is an important tenet of American jurisprudence.
MACFARLANE: Yes, as you say, I mean, Donald Trump has been saying he's under no obligation to provide evidence. He's repeatedly denied to hand
over answers to simple questions. And now the Trump administration are trying to invoke, as you say, the secrets -- state secrets privilege in
order not to do so. How far do you expect that to go?
COPELAND: I don't think it's going to go very far, Christina, because part of -- again, the rule of law is that unlike as the President noted, judges
aren't elected.
[14:20:00]
And the reason judges aren't elected is that they don't have to bow to political pressure. They are appointed for life. They have to take an oath
applying the law equally to everybody, no matter who they are. And so American law encompasses two things. One is substance. You know, can we
deport people that we believe are Venezuelan gang members?
And procedure. If so, what are the procedures we have to follow? And the judge seems to me to be more concerned at this point about the procedures.
Did the government -- if they're going to do this, do this the right way? You know, you have family members like you noted that said, these folks
have done nothing wrong. You've got the wrong people, and that's where the judge's concern lies.
MACFARLANE: Yes, and all of that comes back to this central decision on whether the Trump administration can continue to use this war-time law. As
you were saying, I mean, the lawyers for these men say they have no affiliation with any gang crime or gang membership. So, how do you expect
the judge to rule on that?
COPELAND: Well, you know, like I said, it's kind of a two-pronged thing. The judge may not even reach the issue of whether they are members of these
gangs today. He may just look more at the procedural part of it. Did the federal government do this right? That is what his -- I think his primary
focus is at this point.
You know, answer my questions, tell me very basic information. And that might be the focus of today's hearing, more so than whether these people
are gang members as the Trump administration has alleged. There may be some getting into that. But again, I think the focus today is going to be on how
did the Trump administration effect this, and did they do that lawfully?
MACFARLANE: So, you think we probably won't get to the question of whether or not the Trump administration had been using this war-time law illegally?
At what point then will that be addressed? Because it's a fairly -- you know, important --
COPELAND: Sure --
MACFARLANE: Precedent that could be set, right? Depending on how the judge rules on this, because, you know, anything that enables Trump -- the Trump
administration to continue on that track is going to expand his executive authority.
COPELAND: That's right. And you know, as you know, the Alien Enemies Act was enacted in 1789. It's been employed in the war of 1812, World War I,
World War II. World War II most notably, it was used to intern Japanese non-citizens based on concerns that they were -- you know, complicit with
Japan in World War II.
Interestingly, in 1988, during the Reagan administration, Congress apologized for it, said there was no basis for it. The judge will address
the issue of what's the scope of that order, and what is the President's ability under the Act? I think right now, the setting, like I said is going
to be, did they follow the procedures? Did they follow the court's order?
But we will get to the question, you know, what is the scope of this, and how far can the Trump administration go under the -- under the Alien
Enemies Act?
MACFARLANE: Do you think we will get as far --
COPELAND: I think today's hearing --
MACFARLANE: Sorry, go ahead.
COPELAND: I'm sorry Christina, I think today's -- I think today's hearings really is, did you comply with my order or did you deliberately flout it as
I -- as I -- fearful that you did.
MACFARLANE: And if it's found that he did deliberately flout it, what happens next? What are his options?
COPELAND: That's an interesting -- that is an interesting question. I've wondered a lot about that too. You know, judges can hold people in
contempt. Contempt can take various forms. It can be civil contempt, it can be criminal contempt. I am not sure what the judge will be able to do
effectively against the Trump administration.
I don't know if it will involve fines. I don't know if it will involve jail time. This is not something that the federal government has done frequently
in the past. I mean, it's just sort of today walking in and saying, you know, we've done nothing wrong. And by the way, we're not going to tell you
anything about it.
MACFARLANE: Yes --
COPELAND: That just is such a departure from how governments act. Again, the rule of law seems that we're all going to follow the law --
MACFARLANE: Yes --
COPELAND: And that it applies equally to everybody. And this is just a very strange time.
MACFARLANE: Yes, we are certainly in uncharted territory, aren't we? And we will watch to see how this hearing unfolds. But for now, Amy Lee Copeland,
appreciate your thoughts with us tonight. Thank you.
COPELAND: Thank you.
MACFARLANE: And his Department of Government Efficiency considers the possibility of major military cuts. Elon Musk paid a visit to the Pentagon
today. Musk met with top U.S. military officials following an invitation from Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, who rejected an earlier New York Times
report that said Musk was being briefed on the Pentagon's plan for a potential war with China.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, UNITED STATES: We welcomed him today to the Pentagon to talk about DOGE, to talk about efficiencies, to talk about
innovations. It was a great informal conversation. The rest of that reporting was fake. There was no war plans. There was no Chinese war plans.
There was no secret plans. That's not what we're doing at the Pentagon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[14:25:00]
MACFARLANE: Well, during that Oval Office session with reporters, President Trump announced that the Pentagon is moving forward with plans for a sixth
generation fighter jet. It will be known as the F-47 and be manufactured by Boeing. Our Natasha Bertrand is at the Pentagon with more.
Natasha, I know you were actually there when Elon Musk came out of that meeting. Obviously Pete Hegseth there, Donald Trump all saying this has
nothing to do with China, the reason for him being there. So, do we know why he was there and what else was discussed?
NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, all we can really rely on at this point is what the President, Secretary of Defense
Hegseth and Musk have said about this meeting, which is that it was pretty informal, it was meant to be about DOGE cuts to the Pentagon, and that a
range of other topics were also discussed.
What we don't know is whether China was one of those topics, or what level of classification this briefing actually occurred at, because Elon Musk, he
does have a top secret clearance, we have reported that, but there is -- there are a number of different classification levels, of course, that a
briefing could happen at.
And war planning, of course, they can make it so that it does have various different classification levels. So, the level of detail that he may have
gotten about any particular military operation or plan is still very unclear here. But he was only in the Pentagon for a little over an hour,
and he appeared very chummy with Pete Hegseth.
They were walking out, they were slapping each other on the back, they were laughing, and when Elon Musk was leaving the Pentagon, he told Hegseth
directly, I want to be of help to you. And he said that he hopes that this will have a good outcome for everyone. Now, it's unclear what exactly he
was referring to there, but obviously Elon Musk has been very involved here at the Department of Defense when it comes to cutting spending.
That has been one of the main things that he has been working on with the Secretary. And Secretary Hegseth said just yesterday that with the help of
DOGE, $500 million-plus worth of wasteful spending has been identified, we still have not gotten a list of what exactly they uncovered that was
wasteful spending, but they are clearly trying to tout Elon Musk's involvement here at the Pentagon, and show that they are more in a
partnership than anything adversarial.
That was on full display here today as well. But you know, there are obviously a lot of questions about the conflicts of interest. Elon Musk is
ultimately a defense contractor. He has a number of very lucrative contracts with the Department of Defense. So, getting a briefing here on
anything particularly sensitive or classified, that could put him at a potential competitive advantage over other defense contractors, and of
course, not to mention the many vested interests he has inside China itself.
MACFARLANE: All right, Natasha, for now, thank you very much. Well, flights from Heathrow are set to resume tonight. We will bring you the latest from
the airport after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:30:00]
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FOSTER: Welcome back. We're at London's Heathrow Airport where the lights are on. Not quite cheering here because there's no one really here. They're
all stuck in their hotels or stuck in hotels around the world. The lights went out this morning because of a power outage but they've finally been
put back on.
And we are starting to see some movement. We saw a plane come in. It was empty it's going to pick up passengers. And they're going to start moving
them out tonight trying to get the system back up and running. And then there'll be a lot more action we're told tomorrow morning.
Many passengers across the globe are still stuck, they're stranded, they're waiting to find out how they can move on. And overnight power outage as I
say here at Heathrow closed what is one of the world's busiest airports and does plug into the entire system. So, the knock-on effect was absolutely
huge around the world.
Heathrow does hope to get a full schedule back up and running tomorrow morning but it's going to be pretty tough as they got to get all the planes
back into position. Here's CNN's Anna Stewart.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ANNA STEWART, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Flames leaping into the air over this West London electrical substation overnight. The fire taking out
all the power for the local area and for the UK's busiest airport. By midmorning, the blaze was under control. But London Heathrow announced a
complete shutdown. Airplanes grounded on the tarmac and many passengers in the U.K. and around the world left stranded waiting for answers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's kind of unbelievable. Just kind of like, what the hell? Because this whole trip has been a little bit of a -- let's just say
bad luck.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've called Delta and all the lines are busy, so they're not answering. I just called American Express Travel to see if they can
help. I'm waiting.
STEWART (voice-over): With an average of 1,300 flights a day and serving as a major hub for transatlantic travel, there has already been global
disruption. Many flights which were already on route to Heathrow were turned around midair. Others kept waiting for hours only to be told they
couldn't fly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A couple of hours ago, right as we were about to leave Newfoundland, we were rerouted back to Minneapolis.
STEWART (voice-over): Counterterrorism police have been called in to lead the investigation into the fire.
ED MILIBAND, BRITISH ENERGY SECRETARY: There's no suggestion that there is foul play.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just a catastrophic accident is what we're looking at?
MILIBAND: That is the -- I mean, the conversation I've had is with the National Grid -- the chief executive of the National Grid and certainly
that's what he said to me.
STEWART (voice-over): The knock-on effects of this incident could take days to resolve.
IAN PETCHENIK, DIRECTOR OF COMMUNICATIONS FLIGHTRADAR24: Airlines like BA are going to take probably a few days, maybe even a week to recover
depending on how long the problems at Heathrow last and how quickly they can get aircraft and crews and passengers back into position.
STEWART (voice-over): Meaning, thousands more passengers are headed for delays.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FOSTER: Our CNN Transportation Analyst Mary Schiavo joins us now because I mean it's been an extraordinary day to watch unfold, hasn't it, Mary? The
airport says there will be a full schedule tomorrow morning. Are they being realistic there?
MARY SCHIAVO, CNN TRANSPORTATION ANALYST: Well, they're probably being realistic in terms of the number of planes and the planes that allow in and
out and what the airlines can do. But of course, it's the backlog of passengers and the passengers that are feeling this financial and time
consequence as well as the airlines and maybe even in greater detail that will be difficult to schedule to arrange. You know, they have to be
contacted or they have to call in and get their rescheduled flights etcetera.
So, while the planes might be flying in and out, there's a lot more to a down power grid than just the aircraft. So, I think it'll be many days just
as your previous guest indicated.
[14:35:11]
FOSTER: Richard Quest was speaking to airline executives today and he said they're pretty horrified that this happened at all. Yes, there are power
outages. There are problems with that. But because the backup failed as well, the system just didn't work.
SCHIAVO: Right.
FOSTER: What do you think?
SCHIAVO: Well, and they have a point. Although I just want to say one thing before I get into the point they have. You know, all of their contracts of
carriage which is what governs their contracts, that governs what they have to do for passengers, almost all of them excuse them for really owing
anything to the passengers when it's not their fault. So, that is -- that they could go out of their way to help their poor passengers but --
So, the U.S. has been through this too. We had terrible hurricanes in '16, '17, '18. It took out power grids all over especially on the East Coast.
And so, legislation in 2019 set up continuous power airports. 50 U.S. airports must have enough generator backup to keep the lights on air
traffic control, radar, landing systems, and light systems. And they have to do it for four hours. So, that wouldn't have helped here but requiring
enough generators to keep things moving at least for a while would certainly help.
And I would imagine the airlines will be asking how it is that all of the generator systems, the backup systems could have failed. But they made that
law in the United States in 2019 because of the hurricanes we experienced.
FOSTER: Yes. But I mean, they did have a system here. It's just that it failed. And the airport saying that was an external problem. But clear --
you know, if a backup system fails, there is no backup system, is there? So, there wasn't the right risk analysis. There wasn't the right testing.
SCHIAVO: Correct. And the reliability, you know, factors. Of course, you can mandate anything you want. I mean, we can pass laws for anything, but
it's supposed to be you know, some 90-some percent reliable. And so, what they will probably looking at is what was the reliability requirements,
when was it tested. You know, for things like air traffic control, you usually have backups to the backups because that's so critically important
to, you know, to safeguard the lives. But I would imagine that will be part of the inquiry going forward.
And then for the poor passengers, it's going to depend if their airline had interline agreements. If they can get booked onto other airlines by their
airlines. You know, what happens? Are the airlines going to agree to pick up the hotels. Usually in the contracted carriage, the airlines say they
will not pick up the hotels if it's not their fault. So, the poor passengers are in for some rough days ahead. But it's certainly fortunate
it's being sorted out within a day, and that's good.
FOSTER: Yes. Thankfully, as I say, the lights are back on here. So, it will start to get better. Mary, thank you so much indeed.
Chrissy, it's interesting listening to Mary there about the backup for the backups. I mean, literally the backup failed -- you know, the first option
failed. The backup failed, but also the backup to the backup failed. So, it was you know, complete mess really.
MACFARLANE: What do you do exactly? All right Max, thanks for now.
Still to come tonight, Israel's Defense Minister is instructing his troops to seize more territory in Gaza until Hamas releases all hostages. And he's
warning it will be permanent here. What the former Israeli ambassador has to say, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:41:12]
MACFARLANE: Israel's Defense Minister is threatening to seize more Gaza territory until Hamas releases all the hostages. Israel's camp says the
country's military will expand ground operations inside the Palestinian enclave and intensify air strikes. The hardline politician also vowing to
evacuate Gaza's population to the south and to implement Donald Trump's voluntary transfer plans for Gaza residents.
This comes after Israel's government voted to dismiss the head of Shin Bet, the country's internal security service. Israel's Supreme Court has
suspended the dismissal pending a hearing. CNN's Jeremy Diamond has more from Tel Aviv.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: The reasons for the firing of the Shin Bet director depend on who you ask. The Israeli Prime Minister and
his allies have insisted that it is because the Shin Bet director lost the confidence of the Prime Minister, that the Prime Minister no longer trusts
him.
And -- but Shin Bet head Ronen Bar and critics of the Israeli Prime Minister have offered an entirely different narrative which is that the
Israeli Prime Minister has sought to dismiss him in particular because the Shin Bet is now investigating Netanyahu's closest aids over alleged ties to
Qatar. Accusations that they -- that some of those aids inappropriately lobbied on behalf half of Qatar including receiving payments from the
Qatari government.
Netanyahu has insisted that that investigation was only opened after Netanyahu began to lose confidence in Bar and effectively suggesting that
this is a form of blackmail by the head of the Shin Bet. But it is important to note how incredibly unprecedented this current crisis is in
the Israeli government. Shin Bet has never been dismissed before. And the attorney general of Israel has said that the way in which he was dismissed
was simply not legal.
And now, we have this injunction by the Supreme Court until at least a hearing can be held. Certainly, something to watch as this develops as it
is causing enormous tensions within Israeli society.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MACFARLANE: Well, Alon Pinkas is a former Israeli Council General in New York. He joins me now live from Tel Aviv. Good to see you.
We were hearing there from Jeremy about the reasons as to why the Israeli government would be looking to remove the head of Shin Bet, but I want to
take a look at the bigger picture here. What do you make of the sequence of events playing out here? The Israeli government ramping up their operations
in Gaza threatening partial annexation a day after attempting to dismiss the head of their domestic intelligence agency.
ALON PINKAS, ISRAELI DIPLOMAT AND WRITER: Well, each is targeted to -- each is intended rather to distract from the other. And they do come together
into a bigger picture and that is Mr. Netanyahu's alternative narrative on what happened, what transpired on October 7th, 2023 and what led to that.
He -- in his mind only a perpetual war which he extended repeatedly and unnecessarily for 15 months and now resumed it for no reason whatsoever,
only a perpetual war distances him away from those events. And the head of the Shin Bet, Mr. Ronen Bar -- the Shin Bet is the equivalent -- the rough
equivalent of the FBI in the U.S. or M-I6 in Britain just for our viewers' better understanding. His dismissal is for a variety of reasons.
Number one, Mr. Bar saw Mr. Netanyahu's abysmal performance on October 7th. Number two, Mr. Bar issued or at least partially issued an internal Shin
Bet, an internal general security service inquiry into what had happened on October 7th. And there is scathing criticism of Mr. Netanyahu in it that
obviously and naturally riled Mr. -- and angered Mr. Netanyahu.
The third perhaps most important thing is that by law the Israeli Shin Bet, the Israeli general security service is also entrusted and empowered and
authorized to safeguard democracy. And Mr. Netanyahu at this point is also relaunching a constitutional coup. And so, firing Mr. Bar answers all of
the above checklist in Mr. Netanyahu's politically motivated agenda.
MACFARLANE: Yes. And it's kind of a question at the moment as to whether the Israeli government have the powers to remove him. We will wait to see
the outcome of that. But on your point about the sort of continued unjustified reasons for continuing the war, there seems to be a message
being pushed by Israeli hardliners that there's been a failure of Gazans to rebel against Hamas. I'm just wondering what the impact that is having on
the rationale inside Israel for escalating the war.
PINKAS: Well, so according to their twisted logic, what Israel is doing is helping those poor Gazans who couldn't rebel against Hamas. I mean, you
know, these right-wing lunatics come up with these weird ideas. There was a war that was a just war that Israel had to launch and had to conduct. It
lasted way too long, way -- and exhausted all military significance meaning unattainable targets.
Then there was an agreement signed in January, as we all know, the ceasefire agreement. That agreement endured pretty smoothly and was
implemented, I'm sorry, smoothly for 58 days. But Israel refused, Mr. Netanyahu was reluctant to enter into phase two which includes an Israeli
withdrawal for most of Gaza because that very right-wing that is now complaining about the Gazans not rebelling. That very rightwing said, if
you do not resume the war we would leave the coalition. And half of them did leave. They now came back once he resumed the war. So, in his mind all
is good.
Now, the question is -- I know we don't have a lot of time -- but the question is, OK, so now -- so now what? You're going to eradicate and
annihilate and obliterate Hamas, something that you failed to do for 15 or 16 months, even though Hamas was degraded military very significantly. And
annihilating Hamas was an absolutely justifiable cause yet it didn't happen. And so, a few more weeks and a ground operation, that's going to do
it? Doubtful.
MACFARLANE: Yes.
PINKAS: Which leads me to the conclusion or the speculation, Christina, that there's something bigger here. Perhaps a reoccupation of most of Gaza.
MACFARLANE: Yes. I mean, we don't have much time left but just briefly, what hope do we have now for a return to a ceasefire anytime soon? We had
Hamas coming out today saying that they are fully engaged still in the process but clearly just still not on the terms that Israel will accept.
PINKAS: Right. Well, from one to 10, somewhere between zero and one in terms of hope. There is one factor that could change this grave assessment
that I just gave you, and that is the U.S. Now, I'm not -- I'm not -- you know, I'm not hedging my bets on the Trump Administration here, but if Mr.
Trump and his administration conclude that Netanyahu is doing -- is not doing anything that's useful to American interests, and in fact he's
perpetuating a war and a status quo that benefits no one, there could conceivably be severe American pressure on him to return to negotiations
and reach another ceasefire with some changes of sequencing so everyone could save face. But as things stand now, there's no way in the world
there's going to be a ceasefire anytime soon.
MACFARLANE: And in the meantime, Palestinian deaths continue to rocket, up to over 600 now in just three days of fighting. Alon Pinkas, we appreciate
you always on the show. Thank you.
PINKAS: Thank you, Christina.
MACFARLANE: Now, students in Turkey are staging a new sit-in despite being warned not to. They continue to speak out after the detention of Istanbul
Mayor Ekrem Imamoglu, excuse me. He is a key rival to President Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Critics say the mayor's detention is undemocratic and
political. This latest protest is occurring despite a ban on public gatherings.
Ukraine responds to a Russian air attack with its own drone strike. The shockwave damage even captured here on cameras.
That's a drone attack you're seeing there happened near Russia's Engles airfield. The strike occurring as Russia launches a massive drone strike on
Odessa. A local governor saying a high-rise residential building and shopping center were among the targets. These aerial assaults occurring
just days before a new round of peace talks are scheduled. Moscow has agreed to the U.S. request to temporarily halt attacks on energy
infrastructure, however it stopped short of agreeing to a broader ceasefire.
[14:50:30]
All right, still to come tonight, a Seattle man is on a mission to prove he's alive after he was mistakenly declared dead by the U.S. government.
The curious case of Ned Johnson when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MACFARLANE: President Donald Trump's DOGE department led by Elon Musk has been publicizing efforts to reduce Social Security fraud highlighting what
appears to be a number of dead people still receiving benefits. But one man was mistakenly declared dead and that meant he lost benefits, medical
coverage, even access to his bank funds. CNN's Nick Watt has the story.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm glad you're alive.
NED JOHNSON, MISTAKENLY DECLARED DEAD BY DOGE: Yes. So am I.
WATT (voice-over): He's living. He's breathing. But 82-year-old Ned Johnson was declared dead.
WATT: The first you heard was this letter February 19th from the bank saying, "We recently received notification of Ned's passing. We offer our
sincerest condolences."
PAMELA JOHNSON: Well, it was a little weird because he was sitting next to me drinking coffee.
WATT (voice-over): Is there a connection to the cost cutter chief?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There is one person on Social Security who's 360 years old.
WATT (voice-over): And his dogged DOGE lieutenant claiming tens of millions of dead people, over 100 years old are Receiving social Security checks.
They're not. No matter.
TRUMP: We're going to find out where that money is going and it's not going to be pretty.
WATT (voice-over): February 13th, a DOGE employee began working within the Social Security Administration analyzing improper payments and the death
master file. February 18th, Ned is dead.
WATT: You were declared dead just a few days after DOGE started working in the death data at Social Security.
N. JOHNSON: That is a curious coincidence.
P. JOHNSON: It is. So, there's a lot of unanswered questions, but I think that maybe we'll never know.
WATT (voice-over): Ned was among the 73 million Americans receiving monthly Social Security checks. He says not only did his checks stop but they also
clawed back all his payments since his alleged last day on Earth, November 23rd last year.
[14:55:08]
WATT: Social Security told the bank the dollar amount they wanted back.
N. JOHNSON: Take this amount out of the -- out of this account. And they said, OK.
P. JOHNSON: They just take it without permission. But apparently, they can do that because they have gotten this form from whatever hospital or --
WATT: Right. The form that no one can say where it came from or actually what it is.
P. JOHNSON: Yes.
WATT (voice-over): This is not a new phenomenon. Roughly 9,000 people are mistakenly declared dead by the SSA each year. And --
WATT: It's down to you to prove you're not dead.
N. JOHNSON: Right. If somebody's disabled, they can't get out of a wheelchair or whatever, and they live a 100 miles from the nearest Social
Security office, what are they going to do?
WATT (voice-over): Ned says he waited eight hours at this federal building in Seattle to prove he's alive. Now this building appears to be earmarked
for closure.
WATT: I presume you've asked Social Security how, why this happened?
P. JOHNSON: No answer. And we have really no way of communicating with them again.
WATT: An apology.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MACFARLANE: I think I echo her laughter. Thank you for watching "TONIGHT." Stay with CNN. I'll be back with my colleague Max Foster after this short
break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END
