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Isa Soares Tonight
Macron Hosts Zelenskyy in Paris; France Pledges $2.1B Military Support for Ukraine. Journalist Reveals Attack Plans Shared in Signal Group Chat; Zelenskyy and Macron Meet in Paris; NPR and PBS Grilled By DOGE Committee. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired March 26, 2025 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
ISA SOARES, HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: A very warm welcome to the show, everyone, I'm Isa Soares. Tonight, no locations, no sources, no war plans.
That's the message from the White House regarding leaked group chat messages between Trump officials planning strikes in Yemen. But new details
and new screenshots released by "The Atlantic" suggest otherwise.
Plus, searching for a breakthrough. Volodymyr Zelenskyy meets his French counterpart Emmanuel Macron in Paris as Ukraine and its allies push for
French defense commitments from Europe. They're expected to meet and to speak any moment now. We'll bring that to you when it happens. These are
live images.
And then American public media under attack. The heads of "NPR" and "PBS" are grilled by U.S. lawmakers as Republicans push to defund the
broadcasters. But first, tonight, confirmed with Centcom. We are a go for mission launch. F-18s launch. Just some really of the new bombshell details
published today in "The Atlantic" from a group chat on U.S. war plans in Yemen that inadvertently included a journalist from "The Atlantic".
Those details and very specific details, may I add, the weapons about to be used, you see F-18s there, you see strike drones there with U.S. Defense
Secretary Pete Hegseth even texting this out, "this is when the first bombs will definitely drop." A Pentagon official having seen this, tells CNN the
chat contained operational plans that are highly classified and quote, "anybody in uniform would be court-martialed for this."
Now, if you remember, let me take you back this time on Tuesday, this is what top Intelligence officials said when they were asked about the details
of this breach. Have a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. MARK KELLY (D-AZ): Was there any mention, Miss Gabbard, of a weapon or weapons system?
TULSI GABBARD, U.S. DIRECTOR OF NATIONAL INTELLIGENCE: I don't recall specific weapons systems being named.
JOHN RATCLIFFE, DIRECTOR, CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY: I don't recall.
KELLY: How about anything about timing?
GABBARD: I don't recall specific timing.
KELLY: Any mention of any military unit whatsoever?
RATCLIFFE: Not that I recall.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Well, those same top administration officials once again face tough questions on Capitol Hill about the remarkable breach, this time from
Democratic members of the U.S. House. This is what the Director of National Intelligence Tulsi Gabbard, had to say today, as Democrats made fresh calls
for Hegseth and National Security adviser Mike Waltz to resign. Have a listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GABBARD: My answer yesterday was based on my recollection or the lack thereof on the details that were posted there. I was not -- and the -- what
was shared today reflects the fact that I was not directly involved with that part of the Signal chat.
REP. JIM HIMES (D-CT): So, it's your testimony that less than two weeks ago, you were on a Signal chat that had all of this information about F-18s
and MQ-9 Reapers and targets on strike. And you, in that two-week period simply forgot that, that was there. That's your testimony?
GABBARD: My testimony is, I did not recall the exact details of what was included there.
REP. CHRISSY HOULAHAN (D-PA): You, according to our law that we passed here, bipartisanly have an obligation when you think there has been a
tangible, significant leak of information to instigate an investigation. Do you not think it's important to do such a thing?
GABBARD: The National Security Council is investigating --
HOULAHAN: Yes or no?
GABBARD: This inadvertent leak. And again, I point to Secretary Hegseth as having the classification --
(CROSSTALK)
HOULAHAN: I would argue that Secretary Hegseth, if he had the dignity that he needs to have, should be walking his resignation. And because I believe
that he's probably is heading toward being relieved of his duty based on what I think are significant and illegal leaks, most likely.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Well, members of the administration continue to insist no classified information was shared despite the operational details really
discussed in those texts, as you can see, including the timing of the strikes as well as the weapons used. Defense Secretary in particular,
remains defiant.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, UNITED STATES: Nobody is texting war plans --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Gaza, you're up --
HEGSETH: I know exactly what I'm doing, exactly what we're directing, and I'm really proud of what we accomplished. The successful missions that
night and going forward.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We have said all along that no classified material was sent on this messaging thread. There were no
locations, no sources or methods revealed, and there were certainly no war plans discussed.
[14:05:00]
"The Atlantic" has even admitted this themselves. Their release of these internal messages validates the truth, which we have been saying all along.
If this story proves anything, it proves that Democrats and their propagandists in the mainstream media know how to fabricate, orchestrate
and disseminate a misinformation campaign quite well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Let's get much more on this now from our team in Washington. We turn to our chief national security correspondent, Alex Marquardt. But
first, I want to start with CNN's White House reporter Alayna Treene. And Alayna, we just heard in the last what? Half an hour or so from the White
House Press Secretary who insists, from what I heard, and I didn't hear all of it, to be completely honest with you, insists there were no war plans in
this Signal group chat.
But then -- she then went on a rant, trying to discredit the reporter. Just talk us through what we heard and the narrative that this White House is
sticking to here.
ALAYNA TREENE, CNN CONGRESSIONAL & PRESIDENTIAL POLITICS REPORTER: Well, we'll get to that strategy, because this is something that actually came
together, really starting hours after the first story, the one that was detailing these messages even before we saw them ourselves for the first
time today. This was the strategy that they started to put together, which is really a well-worn playbook now by the President and his team, which is
to deny some of the most -- really deny the seriousness of this exchange and what was, you know, shared in this group chat --
SOARES: Right, I want to go to Pete Hegseth --
TREENE: Dismiss --
SOARES: Who is in Hawaii. Let's just listen in.
HEGSETH: President Trump has charged the Defense Department with doing -- reviving the warrior ethos, rebuilding the military, which we're doing in
real time and re-establishing deterrence. And that's why we're heading out into the Indo-Pacific to talk to our allies and partners and meet with the
troops.
And anybody that knows me for years and knows President Trump, knows how much we love the warriors. That's what it's about. The men and women who
serve, who do the tough, difficult, gritty, dirty work that most Americans will never know about, but we have the privilege of seeing and
understanding the courage and skill of what they do.
I'm going to go see that for the next couple of days. We also have seen it on full display in what's been done to the Houthi terrorists and what
they're trying to do to close freedom of navigation. You see, under the Biden administration, we let our troops and our ships, and both warships
and commercial ships get shot at to no consequence.
What does that look like? That looks like weakness. And what President Trump has said is peace through strength is back. We will re-establish
deterrence. That's not acceptable. And our ongoing campaign against the Houthis has been devastatingly effective. Now, as I said to this group a
couple of times on this trip, now as we move to the Indo-Pacific to do our job, which is what we're here to do, nobody is texting war plans.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yes --
HEGSETH: I noticed this morning, out came something that doesn't look like war plans. And as a matter of fact, they even changed the title to attack
plans, because they know it's not war plans. There's no units, no locations --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes --
HEGSETH: No routes, no flight paths, no sources, no methods, no classified information. You know who sees war plans? I see them --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes --
HEGSETH: Every single day. I looked at them this morning. I looked at attack plans this morning. You know who does attack plans and war plans?
Men like that Admiral right there, Paparo for the Indo-Pacific or Erik Kurilla, our General in Centcom. They do attack plans and war plans. And
thank God we have those leaders who do it and do it well, and our enemies know it.
My job, as I said, top of that, everybody's seen it now. Team update is to provide updates in real time, general updates in real time. Keep everybody
informed. That's what I did. That's my job. The war-fighters will take the fight to the enemy, and I love what they do. And with President Trump's
leadership, our enemies are on notice. We will have peace through strength and we'll keep putting our troops first.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Secretary --
HEGSETH: Thank you very much --
(CROSSTALK)
HEGSETH: We're heading off to the --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You shared(ph) great plans before they launched -- Mr. Secretary, how do you swear what you said --
SOARES: You've been hearing there from Pete Hegseth; the U.S. Defense Secretary, who was part of that Signal chat that we were just talking
about? He continues to insist, as he has done now several times, as you heard there, there were no war plans, no attack plans, no units, no
location, no sources, no methods, no close -- classified information.
Still very much sticking to the message we've been hearing from him and from this White House as we continue to hear that President Trump, as we
heard from the White House just in the last 20 minutes or so, President Trump continues to have confidence in his national security team, despite
the detail -- the level of detail we just showed you at the top of the show from the Signal conversation that was put out by the journalist at "The
Atlantic".
[14:10:00]
I had my team with me talking, it was Alayna Treene, I believe that was with me earlier, we're still with you, great. I'm glad that you're still
with us. Alayna, you were talking exactly to what we heard there from Pete Hegseth, which was the language, the messaging, very much sticking to it
that we did nothing wrong here.
TREENE: Right, that's the outward strategy, is to -- and again, this is something we've seen -- it's a playbook we've seen this White House use
many times before, the President used for years now, which is to downplay some of the egregiousness and the most serious parts of this story of that
group chat exchange and try to dismiss it.
And we heard White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt do that repeatedly. She was pressed by my colleagues at CNN and other great White
House reporters, repeatedly on this issue of, can you explain why this is not considered classified information? And she didn't, you know, really --
she just went on to cite what Hegseth had said privily -- even previously, even though we do know that times of when they would be carrying out these
strikes on Houthi rebels in Yemen, the type of weapons that they would be using.
We later saw Michael Waltz share that they had identified their target walking into the building of his -- his girlfriend's building, essentially,
and that it was a success. All of these are things that I will say many Republicans in Congress, people who have previously served and are veterans
as well, are saying, if not classified, it's very highly sensitive information.
But we've also heard from people behind the scenes and our colleagues, Natasha Bertrand and Zachary Cohen have some great reporting from people
who have information on the strikes that were carried out, the attacks in Yemen, who said that, that was classified information. So, still not a lot
of really clear answers that I think Americans are looking for on this.
But I do want to just quickly, Isa, give you some other things that Karoline Leavitt said that we didn't know previously. She said that she was
-- right before that briefing in the Oval Office with the President, that she had shown him, he had seen the text exchange itself. That was the first
time we had heard that he had actually reviewed the actual messages.
She also said that the National Security Council, White House counsel and Elon Musk's team would be investigating this exchange. She said that Musk
had actually volunteered to have his technical teams look into how Jeffrey Goldberg was -- the reporter at "The Atlantic", was inadvertently added to
this chain.
Of course, we do know from these messages we saw, Michael Waltz added him himself. But again, this overall strategy, like I said, is to really kind
of just, you know, carry on and hope this story blows over. We know that the President is going to be making an unrelated announcement at 4:00 p.m.
on tariffs. I think that's part of that strategy as well.
SOARES: Yes, a shiny object, distract and move on. Do stay with us, Alayna. Let me go to Alex, and Alex, we played a little clip just before we
came to you, showing a lack of recollection from Tulsi Gabbard and John Ratcliffe yesterday, which is something we heard time and time and time --
time and time again as they were asked these questions.
Do they -- now that "The Atlantic" has published this conversation in full, have their memories been refreshed? Just bring our viewers up-to-date with
what we heard from them.
ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, in the case of the director of the CIA John Ratcliffe, he has been sticking to
this line that whatever he put in the chat, which we have now seen was not classified information. And that may very well be the case. But I think
there's much more responsibility here for Tulsi Gabbard to answer these questions, because she said unequivocally yesterday to the Senate that
nothing that had been put in the chat was classified.
And she said without question, there were no operational details. And now, we have seen these texts and they very much were operational details. And
there is a significant debate still going on, and I imagine it will for quite some time over whether what we have now seen in "The Atlantic" is
classified or not.
Now, of course, it is the administration's argument that it is not. But as Alayna was just saying, from current officials to former officials to
experts who have now seen these texts, they -- there is a large chorus of people saying that absolutely, this sensitive information was indeed
classified. At the beginning of the House hearing today, the top Democrat, Jim Himes, held up a definition.
According to Gabbard's office, of what should be considered top secret, and it was indeed a planning for a strike just like this one. So, what we're
seeing from the administration is real quibbling. As you just heard from Pete Hegseth there over the term war plans. Without question, Isa, what
we are looking at here are details about an attack, about an operation, about a strike that's going to happen.
And then we have this after-action report also from the National Security adviser Mike Waltz. So, then of course, they are arguing over the
definition of classified. And that argument is going to go on. You and I, Isa, have been talking about the question of investigations.
[14:15:00]
The FBI still has not said that they're going to launch an investigation, but the top Republican on the Senate Armed Services Committee, which
oversees the Defense Department, he says that he wants a classified briefing, and that he wants an investigation from the Inspector General.
So, there will be at least one body that will look into this further, which is hard for the Democrats to do because they don't control either house of
Congress. Isa?
SOARES: Yes, it seems they are quibbling over war plans, is it war plans? Is it attack plans? That is not really the argument here. Alex, appreciate
it, Alayna Treene, thank you very much indeed. Let's stick with this, and I want to bring in our panel. Joining me now is Democratic Congressman Suhas
Subrahmanyam, and CNN political and national security analyst David Sanger.
Great to have you both. First to congressman, great to have you back on the show, congressman. Again, let me just pick up what we heard from the White
House -- well, let me pick up what I heard from Secretary Hegseth just in the last few minutes saying, there were no war plans, there were no attack
plans, no units, no locations, no sources, no methods, no classified information.
This is what he said just now from Hawaii. But given what we have seen, what do you make of the information that was put out there? Was it
classified in your eyes?
REP. SUHAS SUBRAHMANYAM (D-VA): It was absolutely classified. I mean, when we're talking about war plans that is very highly sensitive, highly
classified information. By my count, I think they broke six, maybe seven laws. I think this was a complete disaster. And I think it erodes trust in
our service members and in the American people.
And so, we just sent a letter from the Oversight Committee to try to get some more answers from this administration on how prevalent this is, how
often they are using this chat, and for what information. Because we got lucky that we found out about this just because the information was shared
with a journalist.
If we hadn't had that happen, who knows what would have happened in future confrontations and future war plans? And so, this is a disaster, we need to
make sure that this administration is responsible for this and fixes this.
SOARES: Congressman, do stay with us. Let me just go to David Sanger. And David, you know, Alex and I were just talking about this because the White
House and Pete Hegseth in particular seems to be taking issue with the word "war plans", attack plans. But what we saw on the detailed nature of it,
which we just outlined at the top of the show, the weaponry, the timing used.
You know, if it wasn't -- if they were not war plans, it really does beg the question, what were they? Do you believe that the White House will
continue this narrative, this spin, not war plans, not classified, it was a glitch, that in the hope that this will die out, is that their strategy?
DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL & NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: It seems to be it's a -- look, when you look at the actual text, it was a timeline. It was
a timeline that said, at this set of hour and this minute, the F-18s will take off, they'll be over target at such and such a time. The target, we
believe is not moving and is in that place and so forth.
Did it give you the level of specificity that a full war plan would? No. I am sure that the commanders involved in this had something that was much
more detailed, that included routing and all of those things that Mr. Hegseth alluded to. But I don't think this argument helps Mr. Hegseth's
case in any way, because essentially, had this leaked at the time, it would have given advance warning to the Houthis, to their missile leaders and so
forth, to at a minimum, leave, and at a maximum be ready for the arrival of some of the planes, some of the drones and so forth. So, you know, it's an
argument over definition, but the fact of the matter is, it would have given the enemy advance warning.
SOARES: Indeed. And congressman, we heard in the last 20 minutes or 30 minutes or so, from the White House saying that technical experts is what
they used from Elon Musk's team will investigate this, and why -- investigate the use of how the number was inadvertently added to the chat.
This is what we heard from the White House. What do you make of DOGE and Elon Musk's team overseeing this? Your reaction to that?
SUBRAHMANYAM: Yes, you know, first, as far as this investigation, I mean, we've launched our own investigation. I don't trust the White House really
to investigate itself. But second, you know, just between this and what's going on with DOGE and their use of and control over secure information, I
think this has made us less safe as a country.
I think people's data is vulnerable now. And I think that -- and now we're putting our troops at risk right now. And so, again, we need to hold this
administration accountable. Republicans and the Oversight Committee and in the House have not done that. So, it's our job as Democrats to do that. And
the only way to do that is to get some real answers and to see some real changes.
[14:20:00]
And I don't think some of the people who are involved in this chat should survive this incident.
SOARES: Who -- you're saying that some heads need to roll. Who are you -- is there someone in particular that you think is responsible here,
congressman?
SUBRAHMANYAM: I think Tim Hegseth should not have been confirmed in the first place. And I do think he should resign over this.
SOARES: And stay with us, congressman. And this -- really a question to both of you, but I'll take your view, first of all, David, because this,
you know, Signal-gate as it's being called, has gone beyond Washington, right? I think European allies, some I've spoken to here, perhaps offended
by the language -- you know, I hate bailing out Europe.
What is, you know, European -- the free-loading is pathetic. I think it was the language they used. Some of them perhaps wouldn't have been surprised,
given what we heard from J.D. Vance. I know you were there, David, when you had -- when you heard him at the Munich Security Conference. But seeing it
in black and white probably was a hard pill to swallow.
I just want to play something to both of you. From what I heard from a French member of parliament on my show yesterday. Have a listen. Do we have
it? She basically was telling me -- we don't have it, but I'll tell you, she was absolutely appalled that, you know, France's strongest ally could
be exchanging this sort of information on Signal, and incredibly concerned in light of what is happening in Ukraine and the war in Ukraine.
Just what is the takeaway here to you, first, David, from Europe -- for European leaders, when they see this sort of information being exchanged on
Signal.
SANGER: So, I think there are two things that are making the Europeans particularly allergic to this. The first is what it revealed that the U.S.
was saying about Europe, that it was basically hopeless and useless, and the position that J.D. Vance was taking was, since Europe gets most of the
fuel that is running through this area, why aren't they paying for this strike?
And he made it sound like he wanted to mail them a bill to this. And that's a perfectly understandable view. And I can understand why people would take
it. But then you'd have to bring the Europeans into the process and say, are you willing to pay for this? Because if you're not, we're not willing
to go clean up the Houthi problem.
I'm not sure I saw any Europeans in on the planning. Second, they were upset about the use of Signal. My guess is that many of the European
nations, particularly smaller nations, not necessarily France or Britain or Germany, probably rely on commercial encrypted systems like Signal more
than the United States does. But people understand what the procedure is.
People understand that there is a classified channel, and it exists for --
SOARES: Yes --
SANGER: A reason. And the --
SOARES: Yes --
SANGER: Test here, Isa, is this, had we gone to the Pentagon because it had -- a journalist had this information ahead of it and said, do you mind
if we publish this? They would of course say, you can't publish it before - -
SOARES: Yes --
SANGER: The attack takes place. It's classified.
SOARES: Congressman, your reaction if you're a European leader and you're not only seeing those words, but you're seeing the way in which those words
were exchanged. How would you react? What is the message for European leaders?
SUBRAHMANYAM: I think just generally, I mean, we look back at this incident, and first, how often are they doing this? How often are they
communicating on unsecured channels, and how are they, you know -- what information are they sharing, right? I think the reason they wanted to use
this was so that the message would disappear, so they wouldn't have to share with the American people.
But by doing this, they might be sharing it with our adversaries, and they might be sharing the information of other countries with our adversaries as
well. So, we're putting so many lives in jeopardy. But certainly, I mean, I had one military family reach out to me from my district and say that this
erodes the trust of our military and our military leaders when the national security folks are doing these types of things.
SOARES: Congressman, really appreciate your time as always. David Sanger, thank you very much to you both. Thank you.
SUBRAHMANYAM: Thank you.
SOARES: And still to come tonight, Ukraine's allies are weighing the options this week as a ceasefire deal with Russia remains just out of
reach. We are expecting, as you can see, a press conference from President Zelenskyy and President Macron, that's coming up any moment. Of course,
we'll take you to Paris live next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:25:00]
SOARES: Looking for a real breakthrough. Right now, French President Emmanuel Macron is hosting his Ukrainian counterpart in Paris. And this
visit with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy comes just one day ahead of a high stakes summit. I'm showing you the live pictures here because we
are, any moment now, we are expecting to hear from President Macron and President Zelenskyy.
We'll bring that to you, of course, as soon as it gets in the way. The U.K., Germany and others, as you know, have pledged to support Ukraine's
post-war security. And they will gather in France to discuss their next steps. Meanwhile, President Zelenskyy has said today, a fresh round of
Russian drone attacks overnight shows that Moscow is, quote, "not going to pursue real peace."
Let, as we wait, of course, for this press conference. Let me go to my correspondent Sebastian Shukla, who is monitoring all of this for us from
Berlin. So, it seems that, you know, they both have different read-outs of different interpretations of this deal. What are we likely to hear any
minute now as we wait for these live images to come in from President Macron and President Zelenskyy?
SEBASTIAN SHUKLA, CNN REPORTER: Yes, Isa, ostensibly, this meeting is the pre-meeting to the summit tomorrow being hosted by Emmanuel Macron. And we
saw President Zelenskyy arriving at the Elysee Palace in Paris a short while ago, where they had that warm embrace between the two leaders.
The relationship between France and Ukraine and Macron and President Zelenskyy is one that has been enduring for quite some time. And President
Macron has been a strong proponent of Ukraine in its defense for since the -- since February 2022, when this invasion began. The Elysee, though, has
been briefing today about the outcome and the agenda for this summit, which will take place tomorrow, and there will be some 30 world leaders who are
attending.
And there are four points that they are -- that they're saying are going to be on the agenda. The first one is the immediate aid to Ukraine, the
continued delivery of aid, the ceasefire negotiations and the discussions around them will focus around the implementation and also the monitoring of
any said ceasefire.
The strengthening, the continued strengthening of Ukraine's military in terms of the delivery of aid and weapons. And then also, there is this
reassurance force, which is the headline grabber here, and has been the proponent, particularly of Keir Starmer, the British Prime Minister of
boots on the ground in Ukraine, helping to monitor and keep any ceasefire in place and act as that backstop which has been so important for Ukraine.
But interestingly, Isa, in recent days, the language around that has shifted from peacekeeping forces to reassurance forces. So, what does that
mean? We don't know yet. Hopefully, tomorrow we'll start to get a better idea and a few more and a bit more flesh on the bones there. And obviously,
as you alluded to, we hopefully will see and hear from President Macron and Zelenskyy a little bit more about what they view this Black Sea ceasefire
to be.
President Zelenskyy has made very clear that Ukraine is ready to adhere to it. Russia, for its part, and President Vladimir Putin has said there are
lots of steps that need to go before they are even willing to think about the ceasefire, and that includes the reintroduction and lifting of
sanctions on a Russian bank and also the reintroduction of SWIFT, which the U.S. seems to have unilaterally said it will agree to, but actually seems
to be a European issue. And that can't just be unilaterally decided by the U.S. Isa.
ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Let me -- on that point --
SHUKLA: So, we'll see what exactly the outcome of this.
SOARES: Yes. On that point, because we know what Russia wants, they want to lift this -- lifting of sanctions, they want the introduction of SWIFT.
What are you hearing from European officials or whether they are willing to go there?
SHUKLA: Yes, I think that they're not, I think is the very simple answer to that. They're not at the stage of being able to even think about
negotiating that. And if you think about also the context of what is happening in the world at the moment, on the other side of the Atlantic,
European leaders have just been called pathetic by the U.S. secretary of defense.
So, is that necessarily leading them to the sense of goodwill and a little bit of good diplomatic horse trading here to think, OK, let's throw the
U.S. a bone here and that they're trying to do Europe and Ukraine a favor. We don't know if that's what European officials are thinking. But the
optics at the moment have been for quite some time that Europe is out on its own on a limb here trying to defend Europe whilst the U.S. is taking a
major step back.
So, we'll wait to see what the summit and the communiques and the statements that come out from various leaders tomorrow in Paris, Isa. But
it's definitely one that will have the eyes of the world on it, without doubt.
SOARES: Indeed. Pathetic European freeloaders, I think was the quote. I'm sure that's being well received in Berlin and in many capitals across
Europe. Thank you, Seb. Appreciate it. Good to see you.
Let's get the perspective from Russia, our Fred Pleitgen joins me now from Moscow. So, Fred, apologies if I have to interrupt, if I do see President
Zelenskyy and President Macron, which give you a sense of where we are then on this maritime ceasefire, because now it comes with preconditions from
the Russians. Are they waiting for clarity from the United States here? What is the logical next step?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're not really waiting for clarity from the United States. I think as far as
the United States is concerned, they -- U.S. is saying that they want to help with the Russians to make sure that they have assured access to the
international markets that the Russians say that they want, and the reason why they want those sanctions lifted off their agricultural bank and also
some other entities as well that are related to Russian shippings.
The Russians simply are saying, look, we're not going to budge until this happens. As far as the Russians are concerned, this deal is not in place
yet and won't be in place unless these sanctions are lifted. Of course, the Ukrainians have said something different as we were alluding to before.
They say they believe that when the U.S. announced that it had been agreed upon with the Russians and the Ukrainians, that then all of this would be
enforced. But the Russians are saying absolutely not. And right now, they say, they are waiting for this to happen somehow.
Now, Sebastian was just saying there that obviously that is going to be very difficult, especially with the Europeans and especially the way that
the ties are evolving right now between the Europeans and Washington, D.C. But of course, also with some of the things that the Russians have been
saying over the past couple of days, Sergey Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, for instance, saying he doesn't care what the Europeans think in
all this.
The Russians have really keyed in right now, Isa, to dealing with the Trump administration. They think that's their best way in. They think they're
going to get the best results as far as any negotiations are concerned. But right now, as far as this maritime agreement is concerned, right now, the
Russians are saying, if that does not happen, the Russians are not going to put that in place.
And Dmitry Peskov, the spokesman of the Kremlin, today came out once again and said, look, this was part -- the sanctions relief was supposed to be
part of the last time that a maritime agreement was in place for the Black Sea in 2022 and 2023, and the Russians said that the West simply didn't
adhere to it at that point. And so, that is why the Russians are saying they're going to stick to their positions on all this.
At the same time, they keep pointing out that the talks that they're having with the United States, the contact that they're having are in a very
positive and good atmosphere, and they say they want to move things forward. But right now, the pace certainly isn't very high when we look at
the face of it.
And the Russians are saying the biggest thing that was really achieved over the past couple of days and those talks were going on in Riyadh was the
moratorium on strikes on energy infrastructure and the list of two countries that they agreed on that wouldn't be struck. So, right now, the
movement really seems pretty slow, Isa.
SOARES: It does indeed. Fred Pleitgen for us there in mosque this hour. Thanks very much. We are keeping our eyes peeled, of course, on those live
images coming to us from Paris as we wait to hear from both leaders. You could see the Ukrainian flag there and the French flag. Of course, when
that cuts on the way we'll bring it to you.
But I want to stick with our conversation on this. I want to bring in my next guest, Carl Bildt. He's the former prime minister of Sweden and co-
chair of the European Council of Foreign Relations, a well-known face here on the show. Great to see you, Prime Minister.
[14:35:00]
Let me pick up -- and apologies if I have to interject as we wait, of course, for President Zelenskyy and President Macron. Let me just pick up
what we heard in the lasting four hours from President Zelenskyy said he does not believe that the deal does not require sanctions relief to come in
from force, it should take place immediately. And he went on to say that Kremlin's statement is an attempt to manipulate the deals. What do you make
of the deals so far and the concessions that President Putin is asking for here?
CARL BILDT, FORMER SWEDISH PRIME MINISTER AND CO-CHAIR, EUROPEAN COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, I have to say, I think it's all the confusing
model, which I think might well be deliberate from the Russian side, and we don't know if anything has been agreed and if something has been agreed,
what has been agreed.
There are different versions coming out of Washington and Moscow. They evidently did not agree on a paper. The only thing that is dead certain is
that the key demand that President Trump had for ceasefire, supported by Ukrainians, supported by Europeans, that's being refused by the Russians.
And then, the Russians have deflected the entire negotiations into this mud of uncertain things, which is beyond the comprehension of most people at
the moment, I have to confess.
SOARES: Yes. And President Trump said, I think that Russia -- I'm quoting him here, "I think that Russia wants to see an end to it, but it could be
that they're dragging their feet." Do you agree with that? I think you hinted at that just now.
BILDT: Well, that is a mild way of putting it. I mean, President Trump clearly wants to ceasefire. Ukrainian supported. European supported.
President Putin does not want to ceasefire. He's been fairly clear on that. And then, he goes into different other (INAUDIBLE) like this Black Sea
confusing things, and they spend hours and hours with Americans and nothing really comes out of it that is comprehensible.
So, I think the Americans are really in a muddle. And if I see it from the European side, I'm sitting in Brussels, very difficult for us to understand
what's really going on.
SOARES: Yes, indeed. And for us on this side are trying to make sense of what both sides are saying, how you move this on. Well, hopefully, we'll
have some clarity when we hear from President Macron and President Zelenskyy soon.
But let me ask you, picking up on what we heard from my correspondent, both in Berlin and in Moscow. We know that president Putin wants a lifting of
sanctions and he wants the introduction of SWIFT. The question there becomes then, Prime Minister, can or will the U.S. sign up to this and can
Putin twist Trump's arm? Because Europe, to be completely honest, doesn't seem very keen.
BILDT: Well, I mean, very key to stop this particular war.
SOARES: Yes.
BILDT: And if that happens, absolutely, lifting of sanctions, but that is not happening. At the moment. The media issue on the agenda is whether
President Trump will succeed in getting a ceasefire or not. That is the key issue. So, far, it's been failing. He seemed to be believing that President
Putin agrees with him, but President Putin doesn't. And then, we end up in this rather confusing situation where no one seems to be understanding
really what's been agreed and not being agreed.
And the Russians, of course are using the opportunity to put further demands. And whether the Americans have agreed to these demands or not, we
don't know. And certainly, the Europeans are not going to sort of take a position on something that we don't know what it is.
SOARES: Yes. And then, just to clarify my question, I wasn't saying that Europe isn't keen on a peace deal. I was saying Europe's not keen on
lifting introduction of SWIFT if it doesn't come with some real honest sacrifice, really, in terms of -- from Russians. And the Europeans have
said the end of the Russian unprovoked and unjustified aggression in Ukraine and unconditional withdrawal of all Russian military forces from
the entire territory of Ukraine would be one of the main preconditions as European commission to amend or lift sanctions. So, that's -- I was just
trying to clarify that.
But very quickly, because we are running out of down time, Prime Minister, can I -- while I have you here, can I ask you about just your reaction to
our top story, to Signal Gate. Trump administration officials messaging over Signal over this strike plans in Houthi in Yemen. And you heard the
conversation there.
Actually, we're just hearing -- we're just seeing the -- are we, is that them? Yes, it is. Do we have Signal? Can we go to that?
EMMANUEL MACRON, FRENCH PRESIDENT (through translator): Mr. Ministers, ambassadors, ladies and gentlemen, it's a pleasure and an honor to welcome
again in Paris, the president, Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Thank you, dear Volodymyr, to be here and through you.
It's all the Ukrainian nation that France is sending a message of friendship and support, which is clear and unambiguous. We are and we will
remain resolutely by your side, and it's our interest in the European continent and for our security as well.
[14:40:00]
For more than three years, Ukraine is undertaking a combat beyond its frontiers. Its liberty against oppression, right against brutality. We have
indeed changed air, and the aggressivity of Russia is a challenge for the stability of the whole world and an impact very directly on our security in
Europe.
We are, for a number of -- cements in a decisive phase to put the end of the war in Ukraine. And I welcome the proposal from Trump to end this a
diminution and then a cessation of hostilities, which must bring us to a robust, durable peace to guarantee the security of Ukraine and our
continent.
And these last weeks, we have regularly exchanged with Dear Volodymyr, Dear President, and with Donald Trump, the American president, and with several
colleagues that we will meet tomorrow and talk about this subject. And in Jeddah, on the 11th of March last, Ukraine clearly expressed to the United
States unconditional -- so, for 30-year ceasefire. And even though Ukraine is the victim of the aggression. And we are expecting the same commitment
from Russia.
And these last days, the United States have exchanged commission thanks to the hospitality of our Saudi friends, who I would like to greet and to stop
the strikes on infrastructure, energy, infrastructure, and to work to ceasefire in the Black Sea. And these measures can constitute first step to
a wider peace, and for a peace to guarantee the security of Ukraine, even if I note that the determination established by Russia to rewrite or
reintegrate the security, which was by listing new conditions and far from proving that Russia really want (INAUDIBLE), Russia continues, in fact, day
after day to strike intensely the Ukrainian territory, including civilian targets. And these strikes, we condemn them and they must absolutely stop.
And at total, you've followed, Mr. President, you've taken the risk of peace opposing and accepting the ceasefire of 30 days in the air, in the
sea, and on civil infrastructure. And to date, Russia has not replied solidly and through its act has shown its war aggression. And we have taken
decisions, important decisions that last European council and approach to which we will continue, and that's why the discussion that we have had, and
we will continue later on, is the summit that we will hold tomorrow to build this solid, durable peace for Ukraine and for Europe, and that will
enable us to discuss several points, the immediate support for Ukraine.
We must continue this. It's necessary to continue resistance. And I've been able to announce today 2 billion extra euros for support from France for
military support to Ukraine. France from the beginning, you know has capacities to give support to the Ukrainian armed forms, and we are
preparing actually anti -- to different support efforts and to solar and (INAUDIBLE) vote (ph) on the front Ukrainian.
We've had tanks and several munitions, which will be entirely operated, remotely operated are drones and cooperation in satellites and for
intelligence sharing. And this support will be completed by production of support in Ukraine with partnership with our defense companies.
And these 2 extra billion euros of support, and for this first part, the determination tomorrow to mobilize all of the partners who are present to
continue this immediate support to Ukraine. And the second element of the discussion will be on the durable ceasefire, making sure this can be
observed and respected, and it will be an important part of the work that we will do tomorrow with our European colleagues to indeed build the
sequencing ceasefire measurable on court -- discussion, political discussions. And then, it will be consolidated and fully followed up.
The third element of discussion will be the future of the Ukrainian army, because the first guarantee for Ukraine for tomorrow is -- will have army,
which is credible, which can deter all new aggression and resist any new attacks from the Russian army. And we will have the opportunity to discuss
this tomorrow.
[14:45:00]
The fourth element will be the forces of guarantee for part of a peace agreement, not on the frontline, behind the second curtain, a reservist
strategy, if you like. So, that they can be no more Russian aggression. And there, the work of the chief of staffs the last week have enabled us to
progress, make solid progress, and it will be the -- for the future. These are the four elements which will be the structure of our discussions
tomorrow.
And the objective, you see it, is to allow Ukraine to maintain the situation on the ground and to resist Russian aggression and also to build
the credible elements of this durable piece that we want, whatever the evolution of the discussions. And what I want to say again, most forcefully
is that France is committed and will support the American support in consultation with European partners and we will not weaken. And we have --
talk with President Zelenskyy (ph) and President Trump.
And we've worked very closely with our partner -- our British partners, and we are working hand in hand with our principal European partners who will
be with us tomorrow. And I want to be very clear this evening that Russia will not have a look -- have -- to say what we will do with Ukraine and
will not be able to dictate the conditions of this debate. Because it's about the sovereignty of Ukraine and because it's about the sovereignty of
all Europeans.
Mr. President, Dear Volodymyr, we're delighted to receive you this evening and you incarnate the resistance of people who will not bend to the
unacceptable opposite brute force. And this resistant forces all the respect of all European, it forces the respect of French people because we
also know that it's about our security.
And this is why you can count on us and the support and the commitment of France by your side, because Ukraine deserves peace and to have see you
here an evening in December 2019 in a discussion at the time with the -- President Putin and Chancellor Merkel, and we know that you are building to
preserve that. I will never let history be written by others. There's one aggressor. There is one resistant. The aggressor is Russia and you are the
resistance fighter.
Europeans and Americans, we have no other choice for our history to the respective international law and for our own security. Thank you for being
here and we will be here with you.
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Thank you very much for your support, Dear Emmanuel, for your friendship and for your
support for Ukraine.
Dear Guests, ladies and gentlemen, France, first of all, I would like to thank you personally, Emmanuel, and all of France for your unwavering and
principled, and most importantly, tangible support for Ukraine. We really appreciate a friend like you, Emmanuel, like all of France.
Today, much can and should be done to assure normal security in Europe and for our people together with France and with all partners in Europe and in
the world. This is an important moment in history. The way today's generation of leaders in Europe defines the security system in Europe for
generations to come. This is what we're working on when we are working for the defense against Russian's aggression, for a durable peace, for reliable
security guarantees for our Europe.
Today, the president of France and I had bilateral work. We are also preparing for tomorrow's meeting with our other friends, our partners in
Europe. And each meeting like this between leaders makes our interaction more specific, more meaningful, our interaction within a coalition who have
the will and the capacity to defend their people and join security.
[14:50:00]
First of all, I'd like to pay tribute to Emmanuel Macron's efforts to help us defend against Russian strikes. And today, I mentioned this to you, our
your or your -- well, they're ours now. Our fighting jets showed their strength and they were made in France and I'm grateful for them. They have
become part of our air shield and they help us defend ourselves, first of all, against the Shahed drones and other UAV strikes.
We spoke about increasing their number and we've spoken about support for Ukraine's defense. We will also discuss about the specific needs on the
frontline and how we can end this war.
I'm grateful for the new defense package from France for Ukraine. We have agreed today on the 2-billion-euro package. It is a powerful package. And
all the detail has already been revealed by Emmanuel. Some detail will be also commented on by our defense ministers.
Number two, Emmanuel is fully aware of our talks with the American side on restoring security and bringing peace forward. Our talks in Saudi Arabia,
the other day, our delegations discussed a cease -- the terms of a ceasefire on energy infrastructure and in the sea, monitoring is necessary
above all.
In the Black Sea, it is more complicated. Moscow is trying to add additional terms to the agreement, which should be unconditional. And so,
we expect the American side to secure the unconditionality of silence in the sea.
And we also have a proposal on the table from the American side on unconditional ceasefire everywhere, in the air, in the sea, and on land.
So, far, Russia has rejected this ceasefire. Russia wants to prolong this war. We need pressure on Russia so that it really does end.
And so, number three, this is no time to reduce pressure on Russia or to weaken our unity for peace. We need more strong and joint efforts so that
peace, a just peace, a durable peace comes. The sanctions must remain enforced on Russia and must be increased as long as Russian occupation
continues.
Every strike from Russia, every attempt by Russians to prolong the war must receive a response. And this can only be new pressure and new sanctions.
They don't understand a different language in Moscow other than strength. And therefore, in Europe, in America, everyone in the world must have
enough strength to defend themselves in the interests of peace.
I'm grateful to everyone in Europe, all those who are helping us, Ukraine and Ukrainians, in our defense. We need stability, predictability and
sufficiency in defense for Ukraine. It is worthwhile for each country in Europe to develop its defense manufacturing, its scientific base, its
technical component in defense. The more is manufactured in Europe for Europe's security, the more peaceful our life in Europe will be.
I'm grateful to all countries for investing in defense manufacturing in Ukraine, for the co-production. And we discussed with Emmanuel today how,
together with France, we can increase our manufacturing, our industrial strengths. And this concerns many things, from air defense to artillery.
Today, we instructed our ministries of defense to detail these issues and to secure their implementation. We -- of course, we are putting a lot on
diplomacy, but diplomacy is only strong when it's based on the strength of a country and all the partners. This is the meaning of our work.
And tomorrow's meeting -- tomorrow we expect certain strong decisions. It is time to move to meaningful operational discussion on deploying a
contingent from our partners in Ukraine. There are certain questions about this deployment and the participation of partners, which can be decided
tomorrow and can be discussed.
And today, the president of France and I decided to instruct our defense representatives to gather with our partners and the work on specific
issues.
I thank everyone who helps us separately. I'd like to thank you, Dear Emmanuel, again for your personal support. Thank you, France. Glory to
Ukraine.
[14:55:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Good evening, Mr. President. A question on what do you expect tomorrow from the Europeans from a force to
assure the security of Ukraine and perhaps the capacity to assure a ceasefire is respected? One of your counselors said today in Paris that we
don't want a force to maintain peace. We want something ready to combat. What do you expect exactly from this force? What kind of support will they
be? Are you confident that in the word -- do you trust the word of the United States and the Americans? Can Ukraine continue to resist and to
carry out its war without the military support from U.S.?
And a question for Emmanuel Macron. You also spoke about a force of assurance. What do you say to this Ukrainian council, we don't want a
force, we want soldiers here ready to swat (ph)? What kind of force do you envisage for Ukraine? Is it a force to maintain peace or is it a combative
force? And what happens if the ceasefire is violated, if the soldiers are sent to Ukraine, what if they have to fight? Thank you very much.
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Thank you. You said one question, but I heard three or four in the same question. What do we expect tomorrow? In
principle, Emmanuel has already revealed our agenda and I fully support it. There are questions about increasing support for Ukraine, making Ukraine
stronger today and tomorrow.
Well, I'm not going to talk about today because these are separate packages, separate strategies of support from each partner. Once they
reveal the details, we will communicate.
As for supporting Ukraine tomorrow and security guarantees, again, tomorrow, we will discuss certain issues. Our representatives from our
general staffs have been at work continuously, and they were talking about a contingent force. What its numerical strengths and format will be, what
they can do and what they cannot do.
This infrastructure is complex. And tomorrow, we will have a large presence from many countries. And I think that will -- the question will be who is
really ready to do this and what the contingent will be ready to do? It is too early to say.
I am surprised that one of my advisors is always in touch with you. I would like to hear which adviser that is. Perhaps he is very influential since he
is talking about our contingent force. And to be honest, look, nobody wishes to prolong the war and drag it into any other country.
A deployment -- a contingent is very important for monitoring. In any event, this will be military, but they are there, above all, to monitor the
situation, to control the situation, to hold joint exercises, and also, to assure, to make it -- to make any -- to make sure that any wish from Russia
to return to aggression is impossible. What tools this contingent will have at sea, in the air, or boots on the ground even, it's too early to say.
As for whether we trust the United States and whether we can do it without their support, well above all, we had more than one conversation, very good
conversations we had in Saudi Arabia, which unblocked American support, which we need. I don't want to say how -- to what extent we need it. Every
percent is important when you're fighting for your own independence with the Russian aggressor.
And the second question, intelligence sharing that we need to defend our civilian population above all from strikes on the energy --
[15:00:00]
END
