Return to Transcripts main page
Isa Soares Tonight
Vatican Prepares for a Future Without Pope Francis As Tributes from Around the World Pour in; Mourners Gather in St. Peter's Square to Honor Late Pontiff; Pete Hegseth Claims Attack Plans Shared with Pals on Signal were Informal. Aired 14-14:30p ET
Aired April 22, 2025 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
ISA SOARES, CO-HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: Hello, and a very warm welcome, everyone, I'm Isa Soares coming to you live from Rome. Tonight, the Vatican
prepares for a future without Pope Francis as tributes from around the world pour in. It is 8:00 p.m. here in Rome, and all day, mourners from
right around the world have been gathering in St. Peter's Square to pay their last respects to Pope Francis, who died on Monday at the age of 88.
The Vatican says the funeral will be held on Saturday with thousands of people, as you can imagine, expected to attend. Cardinals are expected to
travel to the Vatican in the coming days, and preparations are also underway for the conclave, of course, the centuries' old highly secretive
tradition of choosing a pope.
Many of the cardinals involved in the process this time around, well, have been chosen by Pope Francis himself during his 12-year papacy. Let's go to
our Ben Wedeman, who is standing by for more. And Ben, remember this time roughly yesterday, there was a very solemn mood here in Rome and at the
Vatican when I arrived today.
You can feel the preparations underway for his funeral. Talk us through what we're likely to see in the coming days, Ben, first of all.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Isa, what we're going to see tomorrow morning at 9 O'clock is a procession going from the
chapel at the Casa Santa Marta; the guest house in the Vatican where, of course, Pope Francis lived and died day before yesterday. That -- and he
will, his body in the coffin will be brought to St. Peter's basilica, where there will be a ceremony involving cardinals and other Vatican officials.
And then the basilica will be open to the public, and his body will lie in state until 10:00 a.m. on Saturday morning when the official funeral for
Pope Francis will take place. But as those preparations are being made for the funeral, of course, the preparations are also being made for the
conclave, and attention is increasingly focusing on who is going to succeed Pope Francis.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WEDEMAN (voice-over): One of the top candidates to succeed Francis is the man who served as his second in command. The current Vatican Secretary of
State, Cardinal Pietro Parolin. From visiting war-torn Ukraine to brokering a deal that saw the Holy See mend ties with China. The 70-year-old Italian
is seen as a skilled diplomat and a conciliatory figure who could appeal to both conservatives and progressives.
His election, however, could lead to clashes with the Trump administration, as he has rebuked the U.S. President's Gaza plan. Another top contender is
Cardinal Fridolin Ambongo Besungu of the Democratic Republic of Congo, a strong defender of democracy and human rights, and Bongo has been cardinal
since 2019.
FRIDOLIN AMBONGO BESUNGU, ARCHBISHOP OF KINSHASA (through translator): I am happy, I am aware of the responsibility this appointment brings.
WEDEMAN: That responsibility has seen him stand up to warlords and corrupt leaders, becoming a respected moral voice. The 65-year-old is also the
leader of a massive local church of more than 7 million people, and represents the growing church in Africa. A surprise candidate may be
Cardinal Robert Prevost from the United States.
America's global influence has made electors shy away from choosing a U.S. Pope in the past, but the 69-year-old from Chicago spent many years working
in Peru before leading the powerful Vatican office for bishop appointments, and he shouldn't be ruled out.
[14:05:00]
The top contender, though, may hail from one of the corners of the globe where the church has been growing and few cardinals are as charismatic as
Luis Antonio Tagle from the Philippines, often dubbed the Asian Francis.
LUIS ANTONIO TAGLE, FORMER ARCHBISHOP OF MANILA: We believe that Jesus is alive, and he was born in the ministry. He died and rose from the dead in
Asia.
WEDEMAN: The 67-year-old led the church's charitable arm, as well as the Vatican Department of Evangelization, and he may be well positioned as the
church pivots towards parts of the world where it's expanding. Still, it's impossible to say which, if any, of these candidates will be chosen. If
there's anything we can glean from past conclaves, it's that usually the favorites don't get picked.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WEDEMAN: And that was certainly the case back in March of 2013, after the resignation of Benedict XVI, when a conclave was held beginning on the 12th
of March, and back then, there were lots of names being bandied around. One of the names that we didn't hear much was Jorge Bergoglio, who of course is
Pope -- was Pope Francis.
So, it's really -- it has to be worked out in the conclave. And if anybody's seen that movie, that is a pretty accurate depiction of this sort
of backstage discussions, negotiations, politicking that goes on to actually choose a pope. So, I think, Isa, we can also look at the other
names on the list of those who are papabile, pope-able, to see who might be the next pope. Isa?
SOARES: Ben Wedeman there for us this evening. Thanks very much, Ben. Well, thousands of mourners are already gathering in St. Peter's Square to
honor the pontiff. Earlier, I spoke to some of those grieving, who told me of their sorrow, as well as their fondness of Pope Francis. Have a look at
this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was a good pope. I just hope that we have someone that's just as good that takes his place. We were lucky to have him for as
long as we did.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Two of the pope's sayings that always stayed with us were pray for me. And he called for young people to not stay still, to not
be boring youngsters like the others, and to go and meet others.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I am not a very Catholic person, not a very religious person, but for me, it was the pope for the people because he helped to
open the church to all the people. That's my opinion.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For me, myself, I would really like to have a pope that would be a bit more progressive. Probably, that's not the -- we shall
see. We shall see what comes next.
SOARES: From sadness to gratitude. What I've heard here is a deep appreciation for Pope Francis. And there was one unifying message from
everyone I've spoken to, and that is a man of the people. And it is here on these grounds, St. Peter's Square, that his funeral will be held.
Dignitaries, world leaders, most importantly, the people paying their final respects to Pope Francis.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: I'm joined now by Donna Orsuto, Pope Francis recently appointed her as a member of the Dicastery for the Divine Worship and the Discipline
of the Sacraments. She's also the director of the Department of Moral Theology and Spiritual Theology at Rome's Pontifical Gregorian University.
Joana, thank you very much for taking the time to speak to us.
You know, I wonder -- you are one of several many women, I should say, who the pope has given leading roles within the Catholic Church. And I wonder
how that moment, first of all, felt to you, because there has been a significant push. We're not there all the way yet, but there's been a
significant push to see women at top roles of leadership.
DONNA ORSUTO, DICASTERY FOR DIVINE WORSHIP & DISCIPLINE OF THE SACRAMENTS: Well, Isa, I think, you know, for myself, it was a big surprise when --
SOARES: Yes --
ORSUTO: I received the news that I was appointed to this position. But I think it's a sign of the times, you know, that we're moving ahead in the
right direction. I'm very happy to see also other women who have very important full roles --
SOARES: Yes --
ORSUTO: In the Vatican, who are heads of dicasteries and so forth. And I think it's just a sign of the times that we can't go backwards. We're
moving ahead, and --
SOARES: We'll get to that in just a moment, because that sounds so important. It's not so much about the pope we're going to pick, but the
direction that pope is going to take us in as our Ben Wedeman was talking about. But on a personal note, Donna, we know he was -- he wasn't
particularly well, he'd spent 40 days in hospital. How was receiving the news? Just reflect on that first of all, of his passing.
ORSUTO: Well, the first thing is, of course, like everyone, I was sad, you know, that he -- that he died. But at the same time, I have to say, I was
grateful for the way he lived the last days of his life. You know, he died as he lived, giving himself for others.
[14:10:00]
SOARES: Full-on, yes --
ORSUTO: Full-on --
SOARES: Yes --
ORSUTO: Until the very end. And that was very moving. And the fact that he died at Easter, which for Christians is, you know, the most important day
of the year, really, the day after Easter that he died after having celebrated the Easter celebrations with the people in St. Peter's Square,
that he had greeted people at the end of the -- urbi et orbi blessing. I found that incredible. You know, that he spent his life, the last days of
his life as he would have wanted to.
SOARES: Yes, and the messaging and the legacy perhaps, would have been so different if he had passed away in hospital. I think having those last
moments and significance, of course, in the Christian calendar, how important that is. I was incredibly touched by, you know, when he addressed
the crowds, many were like in 2013, (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE), very relaxed pope --
ORSUTO: Yes --
SOARES: But also a focused, yet again on the crisis right around the world --
ORSUTO: Yes --
SOARES: Which is very much what this pope is all about. You know, when I was speaking to the crowds today, Donna, and when I went to Vatican city,
St. Peter's Square, there was one commonality that I heard that, you know, even those who are not Catholic were saying to me, he was a man of the
people. He went to the crowds. He spoke a language that we understood. How likely are we to see a continuation of that?
ORSUTO: I'm very hopeful that we're going to see a continuation of that. Pope Francis left us a legacy that I think, you know, will continue with
the next pope. You know, his concern, for example, for the poorest of the poor, and his concern that the church go to the peripheries. His concern
for peace, as you said, you know, concern for peace until the very end.
His very last breath was working really for peace. And that, to me, is something that, you know, will be carried on. I'm convinced it will be by
the next pope.
SOARES: And we're looking at some of the names, and there's such a vast field. I mean, I was writing down of the 135 cardinals under the age of 80
that who were eligible to vote, 108 were appointed by Pope Francis, is that -- hopefully it gives a sort of indication which way we're going to go. But
about 20 of them come from places that never had really a cardinal before.
And that is incredible legacy from Pope Francis' perspective, what he has achieved. Who do you think -- and I know -- I'm going to -- who do you
think has the highest chance here of getting -- of getting the position? I know you probably won't pick one, will you?
ORSUTO: Yes, I won't. You know, I have no idea. But let me tell you a story --
SOARES: Yes --
ORSUTO: About Pope Francis. I was asked the same question right before Pope Francis was elected.
SOARES: Did you pick him?
ORSUTO: Like an hour before, no. I was asked what American would you pick?
SOARES: Yes --
ORSUTO: And I was a bit stunned as I am now by the question you're asking. And I stopped for a minute and I said, well, if I would say Cardinal
O'Malley, not because --
SOARES: Yes --
ORSUTO: Of him, but because of his Franciscan habit. Because what the church needs is simplicity. And as I walked out of there and I saw the
white smoke, and there came Francis.
SOARES: So, let me ask you this. Is this simplicity what the -- continuation are we expected to see that simplicity carried through, you
think?
ORSUTO: I think so, but also I think now we need a pope who can also bring unity to -- there's --
SOARES: Yes --
ORSUTO: A lot of division in the church right --
SOARES: Yes --
ORSUTO: Now. And so, I think we need someone now who can unify the church. You know, where there's polarization.
SOARES: Polarization in the church, polarization right around the world --
ORSUTO: Yes --
SOARES: Important role indeed for the more than one-point -- I think 1.4 billion Catholics around the world. Donna, I really appreciate you coming
in, thank you so much.
ORSUTO: Thank you.
SOARES: Thank you.
ORSUTO: You're welcome --
SOARES: Well, Palestinians, of course, who, as you well know, Pope Francis addressed often, are also mourning the pope as a true man of peace who had
the courage to speak out to the world about their plight. And for the people of Gaza, that special bond really became a lifeline. Our Jeremy
Diamond tells us how Pope Francis gave the Palestinians hope even during the darkest days of war.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JORGE MARIO BERGOGLIO, LATE POPE OF THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH: Yusuf!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
BERGOGLIO: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE) --
JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For the last 18 months of his life, this was Pope Francis' nightly ritual. At 8:00 p.m., a call to
war-torn Gaza.
BERGOGLIO: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE) --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE) --
DIAMOND: From the third day of the war until two days before his death, Pope Francis spoke nightly with the holy family church, forging a special
war-time bond that priests and parishioners of Gaza's only Catholic Church won't ever forget.
[14:15:00]
GABRIEL ROMANELLI, PARISH PRIEST, HOLY FAMILY CHURCH: Daily, he called us, and then to ask -- to ask for peace, to pray for peace, and to give the
blessing for all Gazan people and for all the Palestinian.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): He spoke to us with a father's anxiety for his children. Church leader George Anton(ph) recalled. He would
re-assure us, checking if we had eaten, if we had something to drink, if we had medicine, how the children were feeling, how the mothers were coping.
DIAMOND: The relationship drew the pope closer to the plight of Gaza's civilian population, and informed his outspoken criticism of Israel's
attacks. "Yesterday, children were bombed", the pope decried in December. "This is cruelty. This is not war. I want to say this because it touched my
heart." The pope also regularly called out rising anti-Semitism and demanded the release of Israeli hostages, including in his final address on
Easter Sunday, in which he called for a ceasefire one last time.
Inside Gaza's Holy Family Church, one of the many communities Pope Francis touched, gathers to pray for his soul and for the world to see them as
Francis did. "My message to the world is to look at Gaza with the same eyes through which Pope Francis viewed it, eyes of truth, justice, peace, love.
Eyes that saw the people of Gaza as deserving of life with dignity, justice and independence."
From this small church in Gaza, a prayer against the scourge of indifference, which Pope Francis called the greatest sickness of our time.
Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Jerusalem.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SOARES: We'll have more news, of course, after this break, including the new firestorm facing U.S. Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth after he allegedly
shared sensitive military plans on another group chat, who he claims is behind the controversy. We'll bring you that story after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ERICA HILL, CO-HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: Welcome back, I'm Erica Hill in New York with some of the other stories we're covering. The U.S. Defense
Secretary remains defiant in the midst of a second Signal chat controversy. Pete Hegseth is not disputing the existence of that separate chat on his
personal phone, a chat that included his wife, his brother and personal attorney, among others.
[14:20:00]
But he is denying that any of the information he shared about military plans was classified. After initially blaming the media on Monday, the
Defense Secretary is now accusing ousted Pentagon officials of trying to sabotage the President's agenda. The President, for his part is publicly
backing Hegseth.
Mr. Trump saying, he is doing a quote, "great job, not every Republican, though, it's important to note, is on board." Nebraska Congressman Don
Bacon now calling for the secretary's removal, telling "Politico", Hegseth -- this, quote, "acting like he's above the law, and that shows an amateur
person." Joining me now, CNN national security correspondent Natasha Bertrand. So, where do things stand at this point? A lot of support from
the President, but is support elsewhere starting to crumble?
NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, well, as you said, Secretary Hegseth, he is remaining defiant in the face of these new
reports, including from CNN, that he did engage in the second Signal group chat, this one that included his wife, his lawyer and his brother. But this
morning on "Fox", he actually said that this was a group chat that was set up in order to communicate media strategy, essentially with some of his
closest allies.
We had reported yesterday that this group chat was set up as part of his confirmation process in order for him to discuss strategies to better get
along in that confirmation process with some of his closest advisors. But here's a little bit more of what he told "Fox" this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, UNITED STATES: What was shared over Signal then and now, however you characterize it, was informal,
unclassified, coordination. In this point, those folks who were leaking, who have been pushed out of the building, are now attempting to leak and
sabotage the President's agenda and what we're doing. And that's unfortunate.
It's not what I do. It's not how we operate. And so, you've got another allegation being pushed again, not based on how we're operating around
here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BERTRAND: So, look, where you heard him just there talking about the former officials that he believes are now leaking against him. He's
referring there to three officials who were fired last week, two of whom were his very senior advisors, including one Dan Caldwell, who served as a
senior adviser until last week, and has known Hegseth for about a decade, worked with him at a veteran's organization before Hegseth was confirmed as
Secretary of Defense.
But Caldwell has denied leaking anything classified or leaking at all. And he told Tucker Carlson last night that he was not subjected to any kind of
polygraph test, and that he was able to access classified information until moments before he was marched out of the building last week.
And so, they are categorically denying here that they have done anything wrong. But Hegseth saying that all of the scrutiny he is now getting from
all sides has to do with former disgruntled employees trying to undermine him. And we should also note that the Pentagon Press Secretary -- the
former Pentagon Press Secretary, I should say, John Ullyot, who was serving until just last week really here in the Pentagon, he also has spoken out
publicly against Secretary Hegseth, accusing him of sowing chaos here at the Pentagon. Erica.
HILL: Natasha, appreciate it, thank you. Well, over the past few months, a number of U.S. businesses, law firms, media outlets and some elite colleges
have seemingly been to the will of the Trump administration and its ideological demands. America's oldest, though, and one of its most
prestigious universities, Harvard is now fighting back, not only rejecting the administration's recent demands to have government oversight of some
school operations.
Harvard is now suing the administration after it froze billions of dollars in federal funding to the school. And now, leaders from more than 100
universities and colleges, including Princeton and Brown, which have also been targeted by the Trump administration, are voicing their support,
signing a joint statement against what they call the, quote, "unprecedented government overreach and political interference now endangering American
higher education."
That lawsuit now setting the stage for a monumental clash with far-reaching implications likely beyond academia. CNN's Kara Scannell joining me now
here in New York with more. This 50-some odd page lawsuit as we look through it, Harvard is very clear in terms of what they see as the
overreach by the government.
KARA SCANNELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They are, Erica, and as you say, this is a significant escalation in what has been this fight, this tit-for-tat
between Harvard and the Trump administration. As part of this lawsuit, they're saying the administration has violated several laws including the
First Amendment right to free speech in the constitution, as well as some administrative procedures and civil rights law, which has put in place a
process that if the government does want to withdraw funding, the government is required by law to follow.
Harvard saying that, that didn't happen, but they say as part of this lawsuit, that their main thing is that they believe that this is a
significant overreach by the federal government. They say it is part of a pressure campaign to assert control over Harvard's academic program, that
this law -- that the withdrawal or the freezing of two -- over $2 billion in federal funds was retaliation because Harvard had stood its ground and
was not agreeing to a demand letter that the administration had sent to them earlier this month.
[14:25:00]
And they also say that there was no rational connection between the Harvard's funds being frozen. These were funds that were directed toward
scientific and medical research, and the administration's basis for saying why Harvard had to make these changes, which was from an anti-Semitism task
force.
So, Harvard is asking a judge to move expeditiously here and to block the administration from freezing these assets and making any other steps around
this more than $2.2 billion that's at stake. Interestingly, the Education Secretary, Linda McMahon, was on "CNBC" this morning, and she was saying
that they do hope that Harvard returns to the table, and that their view is that, that demand letter was not the final offer. It was just part of this
negotiation. No comment from Harvard today. Erica?
HILL: Yes, Kara, I know you'll stay on top of it. Thank you. Witnesses are describing a horrific scene in the disputed Himalayan region of Jammu and
Kashmir, where gunmen opened fire on a group of tourists. Authorities say 26 people have been killed in that suspected terror attack. It happened in
an Indian-controlled area.
It's being labeled as the worst attack against civilians in the region in years. India's army says a search operation is now underway for the gunmen.
Prime Minister Narendra Modi vows they will be brought to justice. Latin America mourning the first pope from their part of the world. After the
break, we'll take you live to Bogota for celebrations of Pope Francis' life and his legacy. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOARES: Welcome back, everyone, and returning to our top story. The funeral mass for Pope Francis will be held on Saturday at St. Peter's
Square in Vatican city. And you are seeing live pictures from there now, if we can bring that to you -- there you go, beautiful sun-setting here, but
also beautiful illumination there of St. Peter's basilica.
Global tributes are pouring in after the 88-year-old pontiff died on Easter Monday. The Vatican says a congregation of cardinals are set to meet on
Wednesday.
And in the coming weeks, cardinals from all over the world, as we've been telling you, will face a difficult question, who will become -- who will
their -- who they pick to be the next leader of the Catholic Church?
Our Chief International Correspondent Clarissa Ward is named St. Peter's Square. And, Clarissa, let me pick up really with that question, because
this is something that I've been trying to get a sense from those behind for the -- from the crowds behind you. One thing they had in common when I
spoke to them earlier today, some of the crowds, was that they wanted a man of the people. So, continuation of what we saw from Pope Francis, what have
you been hearing from the crowds there?
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I think certainly the crowds who are coming here, who are coming here to pay homage, to
mourn, to grieve, to witness this moment in history, most of them are clearly huge fans of Pope Francis and huge fans of the road that he tried
to take the Catholic church on, towards reform towards a more inclusive, welcoming church that really focused on the poor, the marginalized, the
migrants, victims of conflict. And so, they as with you, Isa, many of those who I've spoken to have said that they would like to see a pope who will
continue along that path.
And if you look at the cardinals, who will be ultimately the ones to make this decision, and as you probably know, only those under the age of 80 or
eligible to vote. And of those under 80, according to CNN's math, four out of five of those cardinals were appointed by Pope Francis himself. So, one
would assume that the majority of those that Pope Francis appointed were like-minded individuals.
Another interesting point is how many cardinals Pope Francis appointed who were from countries that never even had a cardinal before. I'm thinking of
Guinea. I'm thinking of Mali. I'm thinking of Mongolia. I'm thinking of Laos. This church has a very different complexion than the one that you
saw, for example, at the last conclave where Pope Francis himself was announced as the new pontiff.
And so, it's entirely possible that we will see a continuation of the kind of values that Pope Francis held so dearly, although it is still too early
to say. And obviously, this is a process that is shrouded in secrecy and politicking that goes on in this sort of sacred cloistered chamber that is
the conclave and has been for millennia now.
So, I don't think we have any clues. There are some clear contenders or favorites, if you will. But certainly, the hope among the people that we've
talked to here is that this next pope will continue on a similar path, Isa.
SOARES: Indeed, a hope for the continuation of Pope Francis' legacy. But like you've just pointed out, Clarissa, very much. So, of right now, from
what we can tell open field. Thank you very much. Clarissa Ward there for us.
I want to bring in Stefano Pozzebon who joins us now from Bogota in Columbia. And, Stefano, we are starting to see people paying their respect.
In fact, I've met a group of young women from Uruguay, incredibly emotional at being here and being able to play homage to Pope Francis. How are people
in Columbia? How are they marking his passing?
STEFANO POZZEBON, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, Isa. Well, all across South America, thousands of believers are praying just to say goodbye to the
first Latin American president. And we are here as the second of three solemn masses that the Archbishop of Bogota has called in memoriam of post-
Francis has just wrapped up.
Here in Columbia, Bergoglio was mostly remembered for his support to the peace process. He made a historic visit in 2017, meeting with the former
president, Juan Manuel Santos, but also with the former guerilla commander, Rodrigo Timochenko, to show his support, to show the support of the Vatican
for the peace in these countries that at that time was still ravaged by a civil war.
But at the same time, Isa, in the last few days and hours, I was reviewing the material that we shot in that occasion, and there is a soundbite, a
quote from Pope Francis that stood with me. I want you to take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE FRANCIS (through translator): From this place, I want to assure my prayer for each of the countries of Latin America, and especially for
neighboring Venezuela. I express my closeness to each one of the sons and daughters of that beloved nation, as well as to those who have found this
in Colombian land. A place of welcome.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[14:35:00]
POZZEBON: Now, that quote, that appeal, Isa, is almost eight years old. The visit was in 2017 and we already were witnessing the first waves of the
exodus of millions of Venezuelans who traveled across the Americas, and many of them arrived here in Colombia, around 2 million of them. I found
that quote and that appeal from Pope Francis particularly resounding, especially in the eyes of what we are seeing across the Americas right now
with migrants that are being asked or demanded or forced to leave their countries with more and more deportations on the rise.
So, I found those words as some of the words that many people here will remember of Francis, the words of a pastor that was always looking at
vulnerable populations. And frankly, no population is more vulnerable in this day and age than all the thousands and millions of peoples of migrants
that we see, not just in America, but all across the world.
So, I think that these are the words that we want to remember and to bring to you in this moment from all across South America, from all across
America, because these are his people and they're saying goodbye to him.
SOARES: Yes. Indeed. And he was very much, Stefano, a pope who advocated for the powerless, who advocated for the voiceless. And that is something
whether he was calling for conflict or into conflict and for those who open their arms to those who traveling or migrants from Venezuela, be it from
Ukraine, be it from Gaza, this is something he always spoke openly.
POZZEBON: Exactly.
SOARES: But, you know, something that I keep hearing often is that he never traveled to Argentina. He never made the trip to Argentina. I
understand that President Javier Milei from Argentina will be coming to his funeral. But they had quite a touchy, I think, relationship. Speak to that
and how he is being remembered in Buenos Aires.
POZZEBON: Oh, many people in Buenos Aires will remember him fondly. Bergoglio was, first of all, a truly Argentinian man. He was the son of
Italian immigrants. He shared a crazy passion for football, for his beloved San Lorenzo football club. And like everyone, and if you cover Argentina
and if you know Buenos Aires as well as I do, you know that Argentinians are very entrenched in politics and they invented, frankly, political
polarizations way before anyone in the 20th century thought of it.
So, I think that Bergoglio has always known and has always been aware that the weight that a papal visit to Buenos Aires will carry in the political
situation, given how controversial, how polarized public opinion in that country is. So, probably he realized that by staying away and by not being
able to travel, by not allowing himself to go back to Buenos Aires, he would maintain this unifying charisma that was part of his figure. And so,
I think that that is part of the reason.
But it's worth remembering that, yes, that he had touchy relationship with the current Argentina president, Javier Milei, who at some point called him
the, a mystery of the devil. Well, Milei will be one of the leaders that is traveling in the next few days. He's traveling late on Thursday night to go
to Rome, to pay his respect. And frankly, right now, everybody in Argentina is unifying in a moment of mourning, of saying goodbye to arguably one of
the most famous sons of the nations.
SOARES: And I think it's so important that you call him Bergoglio that speaks to really how everyone sees him there, not Pope Francis but
Bergoglio is a really dear son to the continent. Stefano Pozzebon there for us in Bogota in Columbia. Good to see you, Stefano. Thank you.
Still to come tonight, cardinals from around the world will soon gather to pick a new pope, I should say. We'll take a deeper look at this process.
That is next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:40:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOHAMMED RAHMAN, REMEMBERING POPE FRANCIS: We respect him as a religious person. And personally, I love him. He is thought -- he's a vision because
he always talk about the peace. He always talk about the -- like the peaceful country, not only for -- in one faith, talk about the whole
humanity. And his voice is really, really good. And we love him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: Well, in the coming days, the most senior figures in the Catholic church will make their way to the Vatican to prepare for the conclave, the
secretive process, steeped, of course, in tradition by which a new pope will be chosen. Our Nick Watt to explain how it all works.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A new pope to lead the world's 1.4 billion Catholics will be chosen by just around 130 cardinals in a
mysterious, many centuries old right. The conclave, conlave with key.
FR. THOMAS REESE, AMERICAN CATHOLIC JESUIT PRIEST AND AUTHOR, "INSIDE THE VATICAN": They're locked in the Vatican and all their phones are taken
away. They're not allowed to communicate with the outside world until they elect a vote.
WATT (voice-over): Every cardinal under the age of 80 is summoned to Rome for this and must swear an oath of secrecy punishable by excommunication.
REESE: It's a secret ballot. The cardinals don't even know who voted for whom.
WATT (voice-over): Father Reese says the movie conclave got it almost right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have to commit to a side.
WATT (voice-over): Except a secretly elected cardinal would never be allowed in. And the cardinal's robes were slightly the wrong color.
REESE: I think Hollywood got it better than the Catholic church. I like the deeper red.
WATT (voice-over): By day the cardinals will sit in silence and prayer in the Sistine Chapel under Michelangelo's Magnificent Ceiling. Two votes in
the morning, two in the afternoon until one candidate wins two-thirds of the ballots. By night, they stay in a boarding house nearby where the horse
trading happens late into the evening.
REESE: Different cardinals will go around pushing for the candidate that they would like to see become pope. Your friends have to do that for you.
You cannot do that yourself. That would indicate a level of pride that would be unacceptable in a pope.
WATT (voice-over): The pope just has to be male and Catholic. But since 1389, the cardinals have always elected one of their own. After every
inconclusive round of votes, the smoke from the chapel chimney is black. Ballots are burned with some chemicals thrown into create the color. When a
new pope is chosen, the smoke is white. At the last conclave, there was a problem.
REESE: The monsignor in charge of the stove didn't follow the directions and the smoke came out gray and everybody in St. Peter Square was
scratching their heads.
WATT (voice-over): So, they rang the biggest bell in the square as well
REESE: And as soon as you see it swinging, you know it's over.
WATT (voice-over): The new pope chooses a name and is ushered to the room of tears.
REESE: And in that room, they will have three sets of papal garments, the white cassock that the pope wears, one small, one medium, and one large.
WATT (voice-over): For the new pope to wear when he walks out onto that famous balcony in St. Peters Square.
[14:45:00]
WATT: So, the conclave will convene in just a little over two weeks from now. How long they'll take? Well, that's an open question. You know, back
in the 1200, they once took nearly three years, that was to elect pope Gregory X. Recent years, it's more likely two or three days, that's going
to become the norm.
Now, the fact that there's no clear front runner, that might add a little time, something that might take away a little time is 80 percent of these
electors, these cardinals were appointed by Pope Francis. So, there's a decent chance they might be on a similar page. And remember, these
cardinals are not just choosing the next pope, they're essentially also choosing the direction that the church is going to take over the next few
years.
Nick Wat, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SOARES: Well, joining me now, Elisabetta Pique, she's the Vatican correspondent for the Argentine paper, La Nacion, and she wrote a biography
of the pope that I have here, which I have been reading now "Francis: Life and Revolution." Elisabetta, thank you very much for coming on.
ELISABETTA PIQUE, VATICAN CORRESPONDENT, LA NACION AND AUTHOR, "FRANCIS: LIFE AND REVOLUTION": Thank you.
SOARES: Look, you know, what I found really moving about your book is the relationship that you had with Pope Francis before he even became Pope
Francis, because you got a call when he was made pope. He called you at home. I know he came to dinners in your house. Speak to that relationship.
What type of man was he?
PIQUE: Well, a man that unbelievably, he -- being elected pope, he keeps saying being the same man because a lot of people are, but the pope still
would call me every birthday. He would call me -- I am also a war correspondent. He would call when I would go to Ukraine, always to see how
I was. And he would call before being pope, being archbishop of Buenos Aires, because he was something -- someone always very interested in the
war.
And I remember once I was in Gaza and he -- in that period, he wouldn't call me, but he would call my husband saying, how is Elisabetta, I'm
praying for Elisabetta. And I remember having shown him the videos of this church, the -- this Catholic -- the only Catholic church in Gaza that he
would call now --
SOARES: Yes. He's been calling. Yes.
PIQUE: Where there is an Argentine priest, Padre Gabriel Romanelli. When I was in Gaza, there was another Argentine priest. And I show this church
after one of the invasions and war that -- so, it was always really -- also thinking that I'm a woman with two kids. He would never say You have to
stay at home with your kids. He wouldn't say, you are crazy. Like would have said my father, stay at home with your kids. He would respect me also
professionally as a woman that is a journalist and that goes to wars.
And in this sense, he would -- he -- I wrote also a book about Ukraine, my experience in Ukraine. And he was always calling each -- two or three days
to see, well, how are you, et cetera. And the reality, I always was very discreet about this relationship because it was also difficult. But it was
him who revealed coming back from a trip to Malta. There was a question of a journalist about the conflict, Putin, et cetera, and he said, I got the
information in the field, thanks to one of you, and he mentioned Elisabetta Pique.
SOARES: And that's when it all came?
PIQUE: Yes. And so, well, now I can --
SOARES: And, you know, you've got clearly a relationship and a bond that goes back all the way to Buenos Aires, you know, when he was a bishop. And
given that closeness, I understand that you visited his coffin at Casa Santa Marta, which is lying in rest. I can't even imagine what that moment
was like for you, how emotional that was seeing him.
PIQUE: It was really emotional. It's -- it was really very hard for me to be in front of him in this coffin, lying, resting because, you know, you
would see this image of a man that was always very vital there without life anymore. But, you know, very -- it was very moving. Of course. I think I
cried more than when my parents died because in a -- it was really -- he baptized my two kids. We had been there two months with my kids. There was
also once my father.
So, it was really, really very moving. I think I have a privilege to be able to see this, because then tomorrow it will be a massive.
SOARES: Yes.
PIQUE: So, there was a climate, very strange -- the Swiss Guard, you could see lot of employees of the Vatican, but not just elegant people, also
worker in jeans.
SOARES: Paying their respects.
PIQUE: The gardeners of the Vatican, was all the employees of the Vatican and a lot of people really very moved crying and a lot of people praying
and leaving also flowers there for him.
[14:50:00]
SOARES: Incredibly moving. What a special bond You had, Elisabetta, with him. Really appreciate you taking the time to speak to us. Thank you,
Elisabetta.
PIQUE: Thank you. We're going to take a short break. We'll be back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Investors appear to be doing a little bargain hunting today, following Monday's huge sell-off on Wall Street. Taking a
look at where U.S. markets stand now. Just a little over an hour left in the trading days. You could see some nice movement into positive territory
there, rebounding on the heels of those steep losses.
The Dow, though, it's important to note, is on track for its worst April since the Great Depression nearly a century ago. And all these recent
market losses, understandably fueled by President Trump's trade war, his public attacks on Fed Chairman Jerome Powell, and the uncertainty worldwide
when it comes to U.S. tariffs, uncertainty, which, according to the chief of the International Monetary Fund, will lead to a significant slowdown in
global economic growth, especially in the United States.
For more, my colleague Vanessa Yurkevich joins me now. This really had a lot of people concerned when these headlines came across this morning.
VANESSA YURKEVICH, CNN BUSINESS AND POLITICS CORRESPONDENT: Yes, certainly. But Marcus had been in the green most of the day. And this rally
late in the afternoon has been fueled by the fact that Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent told investors in a private meeting that he expects the trade
war with China to de-escalate soon, and that the current rate at this trade war between China and the United States is just unsustainable.
And look at the Dow now, up almost a thousand points, essentially erasing all of the losses from yesterday. You have the S&P, the NASDAQ also up
about 2.5 percent. But of course, this doesn't sort of erase the volatility though of the last few weeks because of President Trump's trade war. You do
still have the Daw on track to have its worst April since the Great Depression, as you mentioned.
And then, we also got new data, a new outlook from the International Monetary Fund today, which had to revise down its economic growth
production -- projections both for the U.S. and for the rest of the world. And essentially, this outlook said that this forecast was under exceptional
circumstances and they revised down the U.S. outlook for 2025 to one growth of 1.8 percent, and for the rest of the world growth of 2.8 percent. That
is not terrible, but it is certainly not where they thought things would be in January.
[14:55:00]
Now, where is a safe place for investors to sort of put their money right now? Well look at what gold is doing right now, hitting new records. Gold
is trading for about $3,500 an ounce and has really been on a rise in recent weeks because gold is considered a safe haven for investors. Gold is
really resilient amidst inflation, amidst a recession, and it's just a very secure asset during a lot of economic uncertainty.
Now, analysts I spoke with say that they believe that the market though will continue to be volatile because they are looking for trade agreements.
This news with China. Certainly, is good that there's going to be a de- escalation, but they want to see tangible deals in hand, then investors can kind of take a sigh of relief, a breath of fresh air. But until then, we
should expect this market volatility.
Look at what happened yesterday and look where we are today, Erica.
HILL: Yes, absolutely. Vanessa, appreciate it as always. Thank you. And thanks to all of you for joining us this hour. Be sure to stay with CNN.
Newsroom is up next with Isa Soares and Max Foster.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:00:00]
END
