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Isa Soares Tonight
Mourners Pay Last Respects As Pope Lies in State; Trump Says His Administration is "Actively" Talking with China to Get a "Fair Deal"; China: If the U.S. Wants to Make a Deal, It Should Stop Threats and Coercion and Engage on Basis of Respect and Equality. Aired 14-15:00p ET
Aired April 23, 2025 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
ISA SOARES, CO-HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: Hello, and a very warm welcome, I'm Isa Soares in Rome, where crowds continue to flock to St. Peter's
basilica to pay their respects to the late Pope Francis.
ERICA HILL, CO-HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: And I'm Erica Hill in New York. I'll be bringing you some of the day's other top stories, including market
moving comments yet again from the Trump administration. Isa?
SOARES: Thank you very much, Erica. We begin this hour with the final goodbyes of the Catholic faithful. It's just gone 8:00 p.m. here, and
people from all over the world coming to St. Peter's basilica to pay their last respects to a very beloved pope. But if we show you these live images
coming to us from the Vatican, because the Vatican has said in the last few hours that it may extend visitation hours to accommodate the huge crowds
that have been filling -- past the casket of Pope Francis.
And I've just been seeing the last few minutes, in fact, as we stay with these live images that, you know, so far, according to the Vatican, about
19,000, 19,430 people have visited the basilica so far. As you all know, as you can see there, he is lying in state, and he will be lying in state for
three days before his funeral on Saturday, that will be open to the public.
The pope will then be buried in a pretty simple, unadorned tomb to honor his final wishes at the basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore in Rome, making
him the first pope to be interred outside the Vatican in over 100 years. Pope Francis died, of course, of a heart attack and stroke the morning
after Easter, and he was 88 years old.
And the pope's funeral will be attended -- we're getting confirmation every day of more and more leaders traveling from right around the world, from
cardinals, of course, who will choose his successor in the upcoming conclave. But these next few days are really meant for not just for
gratitude, but also for reflection.
A time to honor the extraordinary life of Pope Francis, his humility, his compassion, as well as his tireless work for the world's most vulnerable
souls. Ben Wedeman begins our coverage this hour here, right here in Rome.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In reverence and respect, the faithful united in tribute to Pope Francis
Wednesday. From the modest chapel at Casa Santa Marta through the storied streets of the Vatican. Pope Francis' simple wooden coffin held aloft by
pallbearers and followed by his cardinals and Swiss guard in a somber cortege.
The historic procession was welcomed to St. Peter's Square by more than 20,000 people, the Vatican said. The applause of tourists and faithful
following his open coffin as it was moved into the basilica. Here the pope will lie in state before his funeral Saturday.
[14:05:00]
Coffin on the floor, his hands clasped in the rosary, a mark of his wish for simplicity in death, as in life. After the service, a chance for the
faithful to say farewell. Lines of mourners who had queued since the early hours, flooding in.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: To respect --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Very sad, to pay respect.
WEDEMAN: Irma Herrera-Recio and her 80-year-old mother were in the crowds when the pope appeared at Easter Sunday mass. Days later, they're back to
say goodbye.
IRMA HERRERA-RECIO, VISITING FROM LOS ANGELES: This has been her dream to come to the Vatican, come to Rome and get to see the pope. We were hoping
we would have him for a while because of all the wonderful things that he did.
LOUIS KERNAYOU, VISITING FROM U.S. VIRGIN ISLANDS: He's the leader of faithful and men and women of good-will. So, I was so humbled to be among
those who honored that great man.
WEDEMAN: The pope's body now back with the flock he loved ahead of his funeral and burial. Ben Wedeman, CNN, Rome.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SOARES: I'm joined now by CNN Vatican correspondent Christopher Lamb, and I think just going to call on my producer to bring some of those images
from inside St. Peter's basilica. Just so moving to see those long lines of people continuing to make their way inside the basilica to pay their
respects. And as we were just saying, the numbers already that have gone to pay their respects and continue to do so at five minutes past 8:00 in the
evening, it's incredibly moving. And I wonder whether the Vatican thinks they will have to extend these hours.
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Isa, it looks like they will extend them. I mean, they've suggested they might, but I think given
just how long the queue is, it's several hours long to get into St. Peter's. I imagine they'll be looking at doing that. It's so many people
wanting to pay their respects to Pope Francis.
I was out in the crowd earlier, speaking to different people there, including some nuns who traveled overnight from Sicily, so they could be
here and to see the pope.
There's a real feeling that Francis was their pope, someone that they had a personal connection to. And that's why I think there are so many people
turning out to pay their respects to him.
SOARES: And this is something we heard -- we have been hearing for the last few days. He was certainly a unifier. That's what I've been hearing in
the last few days. As we look ahead, and it is a moment of reflection, as we said, of course, as he lies in state. But already, we are starting to
see the politicking, the horse-trading -- I'm not sure if I can even call it that, of potentially the -- of the conclave, as we've seen quite a few
cardinals already arriving in this procession.
Speak to what you are hearing, because I hear there's a row kind of brewing, reportedly brewing between one of the cardinals.
LAMB: Well, there is a row. A potential standoff over the attendance of one of the cardinals. Cardinal Becciu, who lost the rights and privileges
of being a cardinal after he was convicted of financial misconduct. He was convicted by a Vatican court of financial fraud. But he is claiming that he
can still go into the conclave. He's always maintained his innocence of these convictions, these charges against him. So, there is a real potential
problem here. The Vatican say that he is a non-elector.
SOARES: So, who decides then?
LAMB: Well, it was decided by the Holy See, and of course, when Pope Francis said he must resign his rights and privileges, you would expect
that to be not attending a conclave. However, some people argue that, of course, as a cardinal under the age of 80, he has a right to be there. It's
a little bit of a legal gray area, so there could be a bit of a standoff on that one. It's a little bit like something out of the movie conclave.
SOARES: It is indeed. I'm sure people who are listening to us will be screaming at their TV --
LAMB: Exactly --
SOARES: Given what we saw in the conclave. Christopher, thank you very much. I know you'll stay across this as well as all the other developments
right out of the Vatican. We're going to be right back later this hour with much more on the life as well as the legacy of Pope Francis, as well as
what's to come in the coming days as the Catholic Church considers his successor. But for now, I'll leave you with my colleague Erica Hill, with a
look at the day's other top stories. Erica.
HILL: Isa, thank you. Here in the U.S., President Donald Trump is once again seemingly retreating from his threats to China after triggering a
trade war with the world's second largest economy. The President today saying his administration is actively working to reach an agreement with
Beijing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you clarify, Mr. President, on China?
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you thinking about --
TRUMP: We are going to have a --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you thinking about lowering your tariffs?
TRUMP: Fair deal with China. It's going to be fair.
[14:10:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are you talking to them actively now?
TRUMP: Actively. Everything's active. Everybody wants to be a part of what we're doing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: That, though, may be news to Beijing. Earlier, China's Foreign Ministry responded by saying if the U.S. wants to make a deal, it should
stop its threats and coercion and engage on the basis of equality and mutual respect. Those comments also coming as Treasury Secretary Scott
Bessent is calling on China to make major changes to its economic system. Just a day after saying he actually expects the trade war between the two
countries to de-escalate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SCOTT BESSENT, SECRETARY OF TREASURY, UNITED STATES: China's current economic model is built on exporting its way out of its economic troubles.
It's an unsustainable model that is not only harming China, but the entire world. China needs to change. The country knows it needs to change.
Everyone knows it needs to change. And we want to help it change because we need rebalancing too.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: And as for investors, well, they seem to be welcoming yet another potential U-turn in the Trump administration's trade war with China,
breathing at least a temporary sigh of relief as well after the President said on Tuesday, he has no plans to try to fire Fed Chair Jerome Powell.
Let's take a look at the markets here in the U.S., stocks are up for a second straight day.
Welcome news, although welcome with a -- perhaps a dose of -- let's see where this goes. Paula Newton joining me now with a closer look at the
markets. So, being well received in the moment, there is still though Paula, it's impossible to ignore so much uncertainty.
PAULA NEWTON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, absolutely. And I will note that if Secretary Bessent had started with those comments in the beginning of the
administration, as opposed to making tariffs very high, debilitating tariffs, a point of reality for American businesses, small and large, the
markets may not be at this unsettling point, but here we are nonetheless.
I will say now that what markets will be looking for, Eric, are two things. And one is the hard data, right? What kind of damage has already been done
to the economy, and what kind of damage is yet to come? As you rightfully point out, right, there is nothing from China so far. The tariffs are still
sky high.
And while the Trump administration hints that they will come down, that there will be a de-escalation, those businesses in the United States and
beyond continue to suffer. I will add to that a second point that I'm looking for, and that's the bond markets and the currency markets. These
are incredibly complicated markets, but they send very clear signals, Erica, right now.
And it's still sending a signal that this is high risk, not just for American growth, but for global growth. I mean, just quoting the IMF here,
they're saying that, look, the uncertainty over trade is, quote, "off the charts". You add to that, the debt-load that almost all countries around
the world, including the United States, is carrying. And this is a risky time in the next few months.
I'm going to bring it right down to reality here. So, Erica, think about back to school shopping in July, right? Two things. Is the inventory going
to be in the stores the way it should be? And if it is, what is it going to cost American families? That is the here and now, and I know that is what
the Trump administration is listening to as businesses, as I say, small and large, are trying to parse exactly what the tariffs mean for them today.
HILL: Yes, absolutely, and such great points, Paula, appreciate it. Thank you. Also joining us this hour, CNN Politics senior reporter Stephen
Collinson with his expert analysis. Stephen, as we look at all of this, I found it interesting just a short time ago, Stephen Moore was on with our
colleagues on CNN domestic, he actually called this not a -- not a U-turn from the Trump administration, not pulling back.
He called this a quote, "strategic advance", saying this was yet another example of the great negotiating tactics of Donald Trump, that 145 percent
tariffs were really just a starting point. Now, they could come down. It's similar language, the reality, though, is that, this has so shaken markets
around the world that we're at this place, as Paula just laid out, where uncertainty is, quote, "off the charts", according to the IMF. Is the
damage already done?
STEPHEN COLLINSON, CNN POLITICS SENIOR REPORTER: Yes, the idea that the United States is a stable, sober influence on the world stage, economically
and geopolitically, has really gone out the window in the last three months since Donald Trump came back to the Oval Office. I think Paula's point,
right at the start there was a good one.
If Bessent and Trump had come out and argued for the rebalancing of China's economy before imposing all these tariffs, it might have been accepted in a
different way in Beijing. After all, Chinese President Xi Jinping has himself sometimes indicated that he's interested in moving away from the
export-led economic model that China has pursued in recent years.
But the politics of this are such that the Chinese cannot afford to be seen to be bowing to Trump's pressure. The 145 percent tariffs were seen as an
attack on China for political reasons. That's impossible for the Chinese to accept.
[14:15:00]
So, now we have a report in the "Wall Street Journal" with administration officials suggesting that, well, perhaps, the tariffs might go down to half
of that. So, 70 percent. But 70 percent tariffs would still be a massive imposition on the U.S. economy, on the world economy, on American
consumers. So, it's very difficult to see really what the plan is here.
And for all of Trump supporters like Stephen Moore saying, well, this is part of the negotiating genius, what happened -- what seems to have
happened is that Trump attacked China. China refused to bow to his pressure, and now he himself is backing down because he doesn't want to
suffer the consequences, political and economic, of his course of action.
So, I would think if you're in the shoes of the Chinese leaders, you may just wait and see, you know, if Trump backs down even further.
HILL: Which is a little bit of what we've seen even this far along, right? Not taking the bait --
COLLINSON: Yes --
HILL: A couple of other times, even when the tariffs went up to 145 percent, China saying we're going to stop where we're at. When we look at
all of this, I don't think we can underscore enough the impact that this has on all these other deals. Now, the administration has said it's talking
to a number of countries, but the reality is, we have yet to see really deals emerge here. The constant back-and-forth, that only adds to concerns
about whether the United States can be trusted on a deal.
COLLINSON: Yes, well, Donald Trump did trade deals which were less than he proclaimed them to be in the first term with China and Canada and Mexico.
Nevertheless, he did those deals. Now, he himself has gone back on the deals that he negotiated. So, that doesn't give potential partners much
incentive to do deals with the Trump administration.
I think what is likely to happen is that these countries are going to come to the United States with offers of investment, small concessions that the
Trump administration could proclaim as great wins, but that effectively do not really alter the dynamics of the global trading system or help to what
Trump says is his overarching goal, which is rebuilding American manufacturing and bringing jobs back domestically.
The question is, why would you do that now? You've got another two months to wait until the deadline. I think you're going to see countries drive
hard deals, and I think we should also underline that, you know, doing a trade deal, if it's a serious trade deal, that can't happen in a few weeks.
That's a thing of months. Countries have to make painful concessions that they have to reconcile in their own domestic political environment.
Scott Bessent; the Treasury Secretary today was saying it could take 2 or 3 years for the U.S. to rebalance trade with China, and that assumes a good
faith negotiation. So, very unclear, even though the President seems to be climbing down on China.
HILL: Yes, 2 or 3 years under the best of circumstances. Stephen, always appreciate it. Thank you.
COLLINSON: Thanks.
HILL: Still ahead, tonight, America's top diplomat skipping high profile peace talks in London. So, where do the latest efforts to end Russia's war
in Ukraine stand? That's just ahead. Plus, the U.S. Secretary of Defense continuing to defend his use of the Signal app. Where do Pete Hegseth's
attempts stand to keep his job?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:20:00]
HILL: U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio is skipping a major meeting on Ukraine peace talks in London because of what the State Department is
citing as logistical issues. Instead, Rubio, special envoy Keith Kellogg is representing the U.S. at those talks. It comes as the U.S. Vice President
issues an ultimatum to both Moscow and Kyiv.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES DAVID VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We've issued a very explicit proposal to both the Russians and the Ukrainians, and it's
time for them to either say yes or for the United States to walk away from this process. We have engaged in an extraordinary amount of diplomacy of
on-the-ground work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: It seems the U.S. President's patience is also wearing thin. Earlier today, Donald Trump accusing his Ukrainian counterpart of prolonging the
war through, quote, "inflammatory statements". Those new accusations come as Ukraine continues to suffer deadly Russian attacks. Kyiv reporting at
least nine people were killed today, dozens wounded in a Russian drone strike on a bus.
CNN's Nic Robertson is tracking all these developments for us from London. Those comments, too, from Donald Trump coming after we learned that part of
a proposal was for Russia to keep control of Crimea, to which President Zelenskyy said, basically, absolutely not. And that is when we heard from
President Trump saying that he has no cards to play and he needs to get it done.
The U.S. clearly running out of patience, I guess the question is, could Europe get a deal done if, in fact, the U.S. pulls out of these talks?
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: You know, I think there's maybe a sense in Europe that there's something that they can do,
but they've been at pains, it appears, to not get in the way of what the United States is doing. We know that President Trump's special envoy, Steve
Witkoff, is off to Russia later this week for another round of meetings, his fourth time, the last three times he's met with President Putin.
We saw over the weekend that President Putin had called for a 30-hour truce. Now, of course, there was a 30-day truce that President Trump had
wanted, a unilateral one without conditions, unconditional that Ukraine had signed up to. So, Putin offered a 30-day truce, and we heard a 30-hour
truce, rather, and we heard from the British Defense Secretary yesterday, John Healey, saying that British military Intelligence doesn't believe
Putin even stuck to that.
And when it comes to speeding things up, the British Defense Secretary saying it's Putin that's slowing things down.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN HEALEY, DEFENSE SECRETARY, BRITAIN: So, while Putin has said he declared an Easter truce, he broke it. While Putin says he wants peace,
he's rejected a full ceasefire. And while Putin says he wants to put an end to the fighting, he continues to play for time in the negotiations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTSON: You know, so, you really get the impression that the U.K. and France and Germany, their foreign ministers were going to be here today
when Rubio canceled. They didn't join the meeting. So, it happened at that Keith Kellogg lower official level. That their view is at a variance with
the United States view.
You know, J.D. Vance, Marco Rubio is saying, you know, both sides must move ahead. But President Trump is making it very clear, he feels that it's
President Zelenskyy that's holding back. So, you get the impression that the Europeans do have plans, but don't want them to muddy the water while
the United States is trying to do some heavy lifting with President Putin.
HILL: Which makes sense. And I guess the question is, I don't know -- and I don't know if there's a sense because understandably, they want to keep
that a little bit quiet. But whether there's a sense that the U.K. believes that the -- that Europe believes they could be a little tougher on Russia,
right, and not allow things to be drawn out in the way that has been happening in these talks with the U.S.
ROBERTSON: They certainly feel that there's a role that they can play in providing military security support to Ukraine, the security guarantees.
And I think it's no coincidence that NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg is headed to Washington over the next couple of days for
meetings with Pete Hegseth, Marco Rubio, Mike Waltz; national security adviser.
[14:25:00]
So, some really key and important meetings there. And, of course, you know, part of his portfolio will be knowing what these European countries can
contribute and what they can do and what they've been asking the United States for. Look, it's very hard to really know what's happening behind the
scenes, but this sense of frustration on timing, coming from the United States, one European official told CNN today, that he believes the Trump
administration wants to tie this deal up within a 100 days of President Trump being -- of coming into office.
Of course, that's a 100 times longer than President Trump originally said that he could do this. But there's a European component to it, and the
details, we don't know.
HILL: Yes --
ROBERTSON: But the frustration that Putin isn't playing ball, and the U.S. is getting played by Putin, that's a real feeling here.
HILL: Yes, understandably. Nic, appreciate it as always, thank you. In parts of Turkey today, an incredibly strong earthquake shaking parts of
that country, the 6.2 magnitude tremor struck just off the coast of Istanbul. It is the largest quake to strike the city in recent years.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (SPEAKING IN FOREIGN LANGUAGE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: So, you see there. This is CNN Turk live on the air when it happened. You see the anchor as things begin to shake, reacting, the studio
shaking. The city is still facing aftershocks. Authorities, though, saying no one was killed in the Istanbul area. However, there were more than 150
people injured. Still ahead here tonight, Isa speaks with a guest who remembers Pope Francis as a kind, charismatic and humble human being. Nobel
Prize laureate and former Colombian President Juan Manuel Santos will join the show just ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:30:00]
ISA SOARES, CNN INTERNATIONAL HOST: Welcome back, everyone. It's 8:30 here in Rome and at Vatican City. And as you can see, crowds continue to file
past the coffin of Pope Francis to pay their final respects. He will be here laying in state until Saturday when his funeral, of course, will take
place on Saturday morning.
Many of them saying he was one of them, one of the people and he was a pope, in many ways, a pope of first. The first Jesuit to be chosen as lead
of the Catholic church, the first to call himself Francis, and the first pope born in Latin America region. He prioritized throughout his
pontificate.
He was also a pope who spoke his mind. He did not speak -- did not hesitate to speak truth to power about the world's crises. Even at the end of his
days, he addressed the conflict in Gaza, Ukraine, and the region as well as forgotten war in Sudan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
POPE FRANCIS (through translator): Dear, brothers and sisters, Happy Easter.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SOARES: And that was of course on Easter Sunday, the last time so many people saw him. And throughout his papacy, he advocated for peace, as you
know. Early on, he traveled to Colombia, urging reconciliation and forgiveness between the Colombian government and the Revolutionary Armed
Forces of Colombia or FARC. And these efforts earned then-President Juan Manuel Santos the Noble Peace Prize.
Former President Santos joins me now live from Bogota, Colombia. He's also the chair of The Elders, a group of global leaders working together to
promote human rights and a more sustainable planet. President Santos, wonderful to have you back on this show, especially on this day, of course,
as the world as we just showed viewers here, live images from the Vatican continue to pay their respects to Pope Francis. A man I know you've met on
numerous occasions. Your reflections this hour on his passing.
JUAN MANUEL SANTOS, FORMER COLOMBIAN PRESIDENT AND CHAIR, THE ELDERS: Very nice to be again with you, Isa. And it's a sad moment because Pope Francis
was a person who inspired many, many people in the good things that should happen. He was one of the few leaders on the world stage that was
advocating the good causes.
He always was for peace. He played a very, very important role in the peace process in Colombia. He supported us and he gave us a lot of advice. But
also, right now, we need voices that inspire the people who are protecting the planet, who are protecting the poor, who are protecting the migrants
and the refugees, and Pope Francis had all those causes as his own, and he inspired many people to follow those causes.
So, that's why I think it's a sad moment and we're going to miss him. Because, right now, the world needs leaders and inspirations like the ones
Pope Francis gave us.
SOARES: Yes, we are certainly poorer without him, President Santos, that is for sure. And we'll talk about the crisis around the world, which is
something he never shied away from, as we've mentioned. But, you know, we mentioned there the FARC, because the most poignant moments, of course, of
his papacy was his trip to Colombia, I think it was just months after signing of the peace agreement with the FARC. A peace deal, of course you
led. But just how instrumental was he in that commitment to peace?
SANTOS: Well, I met Pope Francis two months after he became pope. It was a beautiful ceremony on the beatification of the only Saint Colombia has had,
Mother Laura. At that time, he asked me about the peace process, that was 2013, and I explained to him how we were going about the peace process. And
he took tremendous interest.
[14:35:00]
And I saw him many times during the process. I remember going to the Vatican and talking to him and invited him to come to Colombia to help us
to push the Colombians to make a deal. And he used to say with his sense of humor, don't worry, Mr. President, I pray a lot for you. And I said to him,
well, if you have to pray for me, if the pope has to pray for me, that means we're in big trouble. And he said no, no. But I will go when the
Colombians and you will most need me.
And he chose to come after we signed the peace agreement after the guerillas turned in their weapons. And he put the title of his visit, I go
to Colombia to push the Colombians to take the first step in the most difficult path, which is the path of reconciliation. And that is absolutely
true in every peace process. You can sign, you can stop killing each other, but reconciliation is the key aspect to any peace process. And he was very,
very much aware of that.
And he came here with that message and left --
SOARES: Sorry to interrupt. It is so noisy here in Rome. I wanted to ask you, on that moment, that very moment, such a personal moment that you are
sharing with us, President Santos. What is it about his character that kind of moved the needle on that peace process, on the reconciliation, I should
say?
SANTOS: Well, he was very good at getting to the heart of the people. And to -- and explaining why forgiving is so necessary, even though it's very
difficult. And the messages that he gave to the different people, he even met people from the guerillas, and he always sort of left a message of
wanting to do what he advised us to do.
So, that was -- and he was very much interested in the Colombia Peace Process because we gave the victims a very big importance of their rights.
And he said, this is the first agreement, the first process where the victims are in the front of the negotiations. And that is extremely
important because he used to say that in every peace process the victims had been left to one side.
SOARES: President Santos, I really appreciate you sharing those personal moments with us, of course. And the importance, as you outlined, as -- and
we heard from the president -- from Pope Francis of, you know, not shying away from speaking truth to power. And, you know, he spoke of a
globalization of indifference and how important that is to -- you know, to have the next pope speak for those who are voiceless, who are forgotten,
and that is -- you were going to say something? Go ahead.
SANTOS: Yes. He used to say a phrase that was very important and is very important now. He used to say, we have to do away with the chains that have
us -- that maintain us prisoners of the customs. Customs because things have been done the same way for many, many years, decades, that in a way
makes it -- reform difficult. He said, we have to do away with those chains. And he -- that's why he was so, progressive, so reformist.
SOARES: Yes. Breath of fresh air in so many ways. And I speak as a Catholic and on a personal note. President Santos, always wonderful to get
your insight and particularly on this these next few days, of course, that we pay tribute and homage to Pope Francis. Thank you very much.
And still to come tonight, crowds waiting to see Pope Francis, still at this hour, as he lies in state inside St. Peter's Basilica.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:40:00]
ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: The Trump administration continuing to stand behind Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, at least for now. Hegseth is accused
of, once again, sharing classified information in a chat using the Signal app. President Donald Trump says he supports Hegseth and is trying to find
out information about the, quote, "leakers." Aids to the president believe the Signal issue has been resolved, but they're cautious about more
potentially damaging information coming out. While Secretary Hegseth himself is defending himself to the media.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETE HEGSETH, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: What was shared over Signal then and now, however you characterize it, was informal, unclassified
coordination, for media coordination and other things. That's what I've said from the beginning.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: There, of course, has been pushback on that. Meantime, while the secretary plays defense for his job, he is really tightening his inner
circle of advisers. This is sources at the Pentagon described, the fallout from those chat leaks as chaotic. Here's my colleague Natasha Bertrand with
the very latest.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NATASHA BERTRAND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, the White House is, for now, standing behind Secretary Hegseth. And Hegseth has
remained defiant in the face of criticism over his dismissals last week of three senior DOD officials who were accused of leaking information,
something that they have denied as well as criticism over his use of Signal to discuss in yet another group chat sensitive military operations against
the Houthis in Yemen.
Now, all of this comes as his inner circle has shrunk pretty dramatically over the last several weeks as he has become increasingly isolated and
paranoid, we are told, about leaks to the press. He really relies right now only on his wife, one of -- his junior military assistant, as well as his
lawyer and his brother for counsel.
And new questions are also being raised today about the role of Jennifer Hegseth, who is Hegseth's wife. And she was, of course, also in that Signal
group chat where he disclosed these sensitive military details. She, according to officials that we have spoken to, has really played an
outsized role during Secretary Hegseth's tenure here at the Defense Department as well as even before during his confirmation process. She was
in a number, if not all, of the meetings that he had with Republican senators. And she even sat in on one meeting that Secretary Hegseth had
earlier this year here at the Pentagon with British Defense Secretary John Healey.
So, all of these raising questions, we are told, among some critics of Secretary Hegseth about his judgment. We are told that Jennifer Hegseth has
actually submitted paperwork to obtain a security clearance, but at this point it's not clear whether she has actually obtained one.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
[14:45:00]
HILL: Natasha, thank you for that. Well, in Washington it is clear coverage of the second Trump turn looks very different from what we saw
back in 2016. From popular bloggers to alternative media outlets, the White House Press Corps has gone through a major shakeup in the last few months.
CNN's Donie O'Sullivan now introduces us to some of those new faces, many of whom say they are unapologetically pro-Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: This is my first time in here.
NATALIE WINTERS, CO-HOST, STEVE BANNON'S "WAR ROOM": Well, you're only probably with the most controversial White House correspondents.
O'SULLIVAN: Right.
CARA CASTRONUOVA, REPORTER, LINDELL TV: And I'm actually really good at yelling. because I used to be a ring announcer.
WINTERS: We're all biased, right? We just wear our bias, which I think is a pejorative term to begin with on our sleeves.
BRIAN GLENN, CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, "REAL AMERICA'S VOICE": I mean, there's no doubt about it. I'm pro-Trump. The questions I ask, in my
opinion, are going to help highlight the good things that he's doing for America.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): These are White House correspondents like you've never seen before. They're part of the Trump administration's push to bring
so-called new media into the White House.
KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We have a individual in our new media seat today.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Cara Castronuova is White House correspondent for Lindell TV.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go to mypillow.com.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Yes, that Lindell.
LEAVITT: Boys will be boys and --
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): The new media outlets have full access to the White House briefing room where they ask questions like this.
CASTRONUOVA: Will you guys also consider releasing the president's fitness plan? He actually looks healthier than ever before? Is he working out with
Bobby Kennedy and is he eating less McDonald's?
LEAVITT: I can't confirm. The president is in very good shape.
GLENN: Why don't you wear a suit? Why don't you wear a suit? You're the highest level in this country's office.
O'SULLIVAN: And the characterization that what you were doing asking Zelenskyy that question that you were trolling?
GLENN: I'm not a troll. I never have been. That was a legitimate question. I just wanted to ask. It didn't mean to, you know, get everyone fired up
like they did.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Right now, the brief room, the seats are, you know, big networks up front. You're hoping that that will be rearranged,
that outlets like yourself might have a more prominent seat here.
WINTERS: Definitely. If it were up to me, I'd kick a lot of these outlets out. I view my role here more as sort of reporting on not so much the White
House, but really the media.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): Natalie Winters is White House correspondent for Steve Bannon's show "War Room."
WINTERS: Our bias is not to be sycophants for President Trump. Our bias is for our audience, which is the working class of America, the people who
want to put this country first.
O'SULLIVAN: If Trump messes up, will you guys call it out?
WINTERS: Yes, and we have. I think time and time again, particularly on the vertical and issue of immigration. We are not for stapling green cards
to diplomas.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): We met the new media correspondents on the day Trump announced tariffs that could upend the world economic order. As other
news outlets reported on the tanking stock market, on Bannon TV, they celebrate it.
WINTERS: This is the first day where a sitting president put America's working class first, and it's a glorious day to be standing here at the
White House and to be able to say that and bring that to you.
O'SULLIVAN: Have the, quote/unquote, "traditional reporters" that are here been hostile to you at all, has --
WINTERS: Well, I think they know better than to come after Natalie Winter's in the "War Room" posse. But it's the looks, the eye rolls, the
conversations that I overhear.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): They're adjusting to life as part of the White House Press Corps.
O'SULLIVAN: These big tents here is where you have CNN, ABC.
CASTRONUOVA: Right.
O'SULLIVAN: The networks. And you guys are kind off this side here.
CASTRONUOVA: So, we're kind of off to the side, which is what a lot of alternate media is doing right now.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): From the protocols --
CASTRONUOVA: There were times when -- at the beginning, when we're standing kind of here, not realizing we're in people shots.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): -- to the snack selection.
CASTRONUOVA: And then, this is off topic. The vending machine is full of junk food, and I'm a big MAHA person. I almost ate a Beef Slim Jim
yesterday. I was desperate.
O'SULLIVAN: Do you consider yourself a journalist?
WINTERS: Yes.
O'SULLIVAN: Tell me --
WINTERS: It seems like you took a little pause to process that.
O'SULLIVAN: No, I mean --
GLENN: But I think we all should have a seat at the table. I really do. And if you -- the very first week she did the new media, it was Axios. And
Axios, by no stretch of imagination, is a conservative new media.
O'SULLIVAN (voice-over): But while not all new media here are MAGA media, a lot of them are more cheerleading President Trump than challenging him.
O'SULLIVAN: You are a Trump fan, right?
CASTRONUOVA: Yes, I'm definitely a supporter of President Trump.
O'SULLIVAN: So, will you be able to hold them to account then and call them out?
CASTRONUOVA: I would, I will be able to hold, a hundred percent, him to account. You know, there's -- I'm sure things that will happen that I
disagree with and I have said plenty of times, you know, on the record when I've disagreed with his decisions.
O'SULLIVAN: Is there anything so far in this administration you've disagreed with?
CASTRONUOVA: I'm not going to -- let me put some thought into that for a second. I'm just overwhelmed -- like just overwhelmed with how well I
perceive things to be going.
O'SULLIVAN: But to the people, and I'm sure you see this online every single day, who say, you don't deserve to be here because you're not a real
journalist, what's your response to them?
WINTERS: Well, I'm pretty sure the group of people in there spent, what was it, four years covering for someone who was essentially dead, and
that's being charitable. In my description of him, a president by the name of Joe Biden.
[14:50:00]
So, to all those people who are apoplectic over having new media voices, you guys fail. And that's why we're here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HILL: And our thanks to Donie O'Sullivan for that report. Still to come here tonight, Pope Francis lying in state. We'll take you back to Rome and
Isa for more insight on what's happening now at the Vatican as they prepare for the days ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SOARES: Welcome back, everyone. It's almost 9:00 p.m. here in Rome, in Vatican City. And you can see we are getting -- we can see large crowds. If
we bring the little font down, the banner down to get a sense of the crowds, they are increasingly being told inside in St. Peter's Square, of
course. And we are seeing similarly large crowds gathering inside St. Peter's Basilica. Let me show you those images, live images coming to us as
so many continue to pay their respects to Pope Francis.
His body is going to lie in state for three days ahead of his funeral on Saturday, five days of national mourning have been declared in Italy while
leading the Catholic Church as he spread, of course, a message of inclusivity, inspiring a new generation, including my next guest here.
Chris Carling joins me now. He's from the north of England. He's a seminarian at the Venerable English College here in Rome. Thanks for being
with us, Chris.
CHRIS CARLING, SEMINARIAN, VENERABLE ENGLISH COLLEGE IN ROME: Thank you.
SOARES: You are -- and you and I were talking just before on break and you are -- you have been practicing really to become a priest. I think you're
in the second year, right?
CARLING: My second year, yes.
SOARES: Just as we look at these stunning images, as people continue to flow in to St. Peter's Basilica, speak to just this moment and this moment
of gratitude by so many.
CARLING: Well, we're all very grateful for Pope Francis' years, not just as our pope, but before that as bishop of Buenos Aires. You know, a man who
has gone to the margins, you know, done as Christ did, gone to those who are forgotten, those on the outskirts, you know, papal visits to places
like Mongolia. His last visit only last week to a prison.
While very sick, his last official visit to one of Rome's prisons, to those who couldn't come to see him, he went to see them. Very much a man living
as Jesus lived.
SOARES: How much -- you know, I know you've had an audience with a pope. How much did he influence your decision to go on this journey to
priesthood? How much did he influence your decision to go on this journey to priesthood? How influential was he to you in a personal note?
[14:55:00]
CARLING: Well, there's a great quote, which is used a lot by people in my situation now training to be priests, that shepherds should smell of the
sheep. And Pope Francis was very much a shepherd who smelt of the sheep. You know, the church doesn't need distant priests, different distant
pastors, but people who are very much among the faithful, which is exactly how he lived and how he's asked and called the church to live.
SOARES: What is it about him and the way he led the kind of leader he was that you think you found inspiring and you found really an exemplar,
really, of the Christian faith? What was so special about him, would you say, Chris?
CARLING: Well, I think if we look in his last few months, he's a man who wasn't afraid to show his weakness and his fragility. And in a world where,
you know, a world of strong men, as we see today, a leader who's willing to show his weakness is think very human about that, think very relatable.
Something that speaks to all of us as the church should.
SOARES: And as we look, of course, ahead to the Conclave, I know it's a moment of reflection, but as we look ahead to Conclave, what direction --
because you are the future of the Catholic church, in many ways. You know, it's -- I know it's a long journey. I think seven to eight years. I'm sure
you can correct me. But what route would you like, what direction would you like the church to go in? Would you want to see along the lines of more
progressive like Pope Francis or more conservative, somewhere in the middle?
CARLING: Well, I think lots of Catholics don't quite like this progressive or conservative way of talking about the church. We are one church. And
Pope Francis, as the successor to St. Peter, was very much that sign of unity for Catholics, certainly for Christians. And we -- I think that
unifying figure, which we saw in how many people were praying for him when he was sick, and now that he's died, people from across the church, from
all different outlooks within the church, were praying for their pope, knowing he's our sign of unity. And whoever is elected in this Conclave
will be the next successor to Peter and the next sign of unity.
SOARES: Yes. Chris, I really appreciate you coming on. Thank you very much.
CARLING: Thank you.
SOARES: Wishing you the very best of luck. Thank you.
I want to leave you now this hour with these incredible live images from inside St. Peter's Basilica where people traveling from around the globe to
pay their respects to the late Pope Francis. A man, very much of the people, and here they are paying their final farewell.
That does it for me for tonight. Do stay right here, Newsroom with Max Foster is up next. A very good evening to you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[15:00:00]
END
