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Isa Soares Tonight
Witkoff Meets Putin For Peace Talks; A U.S. Judge Arrested By the FBI Over Allegedly Obstructing An Immigration Arrest Operation; Cardinals Seal Pope Francis' Coffin, Formally Ending His Lying-In-State At The Vatican; Vatican Making Final Preparations For Pope's Funeral; The Extraordinary Rise Of Olympian Ilona Maher; Fossil Reveals The Oldest Ant Known To Science; Hubble Space Telescope Turns 35. Aired 2-3p ET
Aired April 25, 2025 - 14:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[14:00:00]
ERICA HILL, HOST, ISA SOARES TONIGHT: A warm welcome, thanks for joining me on this Friday, I'm Erica Hill in for Isa Soares. Tonight, a high stakes
meeting in Moscow as U.S. and Russian officials meet to discuss a plan to end the war in Ukraine. A U.S. judge arrested by the FBI over allegedly
obstructing an immigration arrest operation. We have those details.
Plus, Pope Francis making his way to his final resting place, we'll tell you more about the pontiff's journey ahead, and, of course, who will be in
attendance for that farewell. We do begin this hour with a high stakes meeting in Moscow, where U.S. special envoy Steve Witkoff met with Russian
President Vladimir Putin earlier in a push for Ukraine peace deal.
The meeting at the Kremlin lasting some three hours, according to a Putin aide. Beyond Witkoff, other senior U.S. officials were reportedly not in
the room. The talks have said to -- are said to have included discussions about the possibility of resuming direct negotiations between Ukraine and
Russia.
U.S. President Donald Trump has been pressing for a swift end to the conflict. Sources say he is frustrated that brokering a deal has taken
longer than he had hoped. Meantime, this meeting coming the same day, officials say a senior Russian General was killed in a car bombing east of
Moscow. Russia also hit Ukraine with a new round of deadly strikes.
At least, eight people were killed across the country, just one day after Russia launched its deadliest bombardment of Kyiv in months. For more on
the day's happenings, let's go straight to CNN's Fred Pleitgen, who joins us now from Moscow. Fred, what more do we know about this meeting?
FREDERIK PLEITGEN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Erica, well, certainly was a lot going on. First of all, it was a pretty warm welcome
that Steve Witkoff received as he went into the Kremlin. Russians really following his plane as it was coming down. There were updates the entire
time from Russian state news agencies.
But then when the meeting began, he was actually greeted by Vladimir Putin speaking in English, saying that Vladimir Putin was fine, asking Steve
Witkoff how he was. But then you're absolutely right. If we look at the video again of that meeting as it was taking place, most of course took
place behind closed doors.
We do see that Vladimir Putin was lined by two of his most senior expert negotiators, one of them being Kirill Dmitriev, who is, of course, the head
of the Russian Direct Investment Fund, but then also by Yuri Ushakov; who is a senior Kremlin aide, whereas Steve Witkoff did not have any other
senior U.S. officials with him at the negotiating table.
And afterwards, if we look at some of the results, they were really only given to us by the Russians, saying how they feel that this meeting went.
Steve Witkoff has not put out a statement nor has President Trump either, who is, of course, right now on his way to Rome and the Vatican for the
funeral of Pope Francis.
The Russians are saying that the talks were very productive, as they put it. They did say that they believe that the U.S. and Russia moved forward,
not just on the Ukraine issue, but possibly also on bilateral relations, and that all of this could lead to direct talks between Ukraine and the
United States.
But it also appears as though we're not there quite yet for those talks to take place. And the Russians are saying that, further speaking is still
required to achieve that. So, for the Russians, really two things. It seems as though right now they believe that there is momentum, as they put it, in
talks to reach a ceasefire.
But the Russians have said from the very beginning that they do still think that there's some pretty important issues that still need to be dealt with.
But one of the things, Erica, that we've been speaking about throughout the course of this week, and that certainly remains true, is that for the
Russians, this is about more than just a ceasefire in Ukraine.
They're obviously aiming at putting relations between Russia and the United States on a whole new footing, of course, getting sanctions relief as well,
but then also possible economic cooperation in the future. Erica.
HILL: Yes, all those things, it is important to note, our desire, of course. Fred, appreciate the reporting from Moscow. Thank you. Well, when
it comes to Donald Trump, he is striking a more optimistic tone today about a potential peace deal in the Russia-Ukraine war. The U.S. President, of
course, has often voiced his frustration over the hostilities and the slow pace of these talks.
Here's a little bit more of what he had to say a short time ago, just before heading to Rome for the funeral of Pope Francis.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're going to try and get out of war so that we can save 5,000 people a week. And that's what my aim
is. I want to save 5,000 young men, they happen to be mostly Ukrainian, Russian. Five thousand young Ukrainian and Russian men. And that's a big
honor if I can do it, and I think -- I think we're pretty close.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
[14:05:00]
HILL: And separately, in a new interview with "Time Magazine", President Trump says Crimea will stay with Russia, and that the Ukrainian President
understands that. And he moved to recognize Moscow's control of Crimea, of course, would importantly not only reverse a decade of U.S. policy. It's
important to note that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has, in fact, long made clear it's not something he can do.
CNN chief national security correspondent Alex Marquardt joining us now from Washington. Yes, there are a little bit of red tape would be in the
way for that to happen. Alex, walk us through where things -- where it's your understanding as things stand in this moment.
ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, on the Crimea question, I think it's really interesting because Trump is saying
that there's a possibility that the U.S. would recognize Crimea as Russian. In fact, he made the point that he wouldn't expect that of Zelenskyy, and
Zelenskyy certainly is not going to be recognizing Crimea as Russian.
That is very much a red line for him. And in that move, the U.S. would essentially isolate itself from key allies like the Europeans, because the
Europeans aren't going to follow suit either. It would be a violation of international law. It would be a violation of norms. And in practical
terms, it really wouldn't really have much impact except giving more heft to the Russian side.
And it would be one of these concessions that we have seen the Trump administration giving to the Russians essentially ahead of the toughest
parts of these negotiations. And so, we have heard this American impatience, wanting to get to a place within a matter of days, where they
believe a deal can be struck. But it is far from clear that the Russians and the Ukrainians are at all on the same page.
The Russians saying today, OK, well, we actually discussed the possibility of getting together with the Ukrainians face-to-face. That is progress. But
that doesn't mean that a deal is going to happen anytime soon. There were talks earlier this week in London preceding this Moscow meeting today,
where the Ukrainians sat down with the Europeans, they sat down with the U.S. envoy for Ukraine Keith Kellogg -- and I've been told by sources who
were around those meetings that the Ukrainians have moved forward.
They have progressed to a point where they're willing to, at some point talk about territorial concessions if and when a ceasefire is put into
place. But Erica, that's a very far away from where the Americans are, talking about territorial concessions have to be made, and essentially
where those concessions will be made.
We heard from J.D. Vance just a couple of days ago saying essentially, the conflict would be frozen along the lines of where they are right now. And
then there's been this burning question of what is the U.S. asking of Russia? What are they demanding that Russia makes in terms of painful
concessions like the Ukrainians?
And yesterday, President Trump saying very clearly in the Oval Office, well, we would expect Russia to stop the war, stop fighting, and stop their
desire to try to take over the rest of Ukraine. Well, that's not much of an ask, in fact, that's kind of the lowest bar. They're not asking Russia to
pull back, not asking Russia to pay for any kind of reparations or help rebuilding all their cities and towns that they've destroyed.
So, it really does speak to this imbalance between the expectations of the Russians and the Ukrainians. So, we are going to wait to see what the Trump
administration says. They have said nothing out of this meeting today with Witkoff, who I should mention is on his way to another very difficult
negotiation on the Iran nuclear deal, that's taking place tomorrow.
But how this -- the series of meetings that took place this week stacks up with their impatience, their threat to move on if there's no progress,
that's what we're watching for. But I think the point is that the Ukrainians and the Russians are not moving as fast as the Americans are.
So, what wins out the desire to find some effective end to this war, or American impatience where they threw up -- throw up their hands and move on
as they've threatened to do. Erica.
HILL: Yes, it is an interesting juxtaposition when we look at it that way, really appreciate it, Alex. Thank you. Also with me now to discuss, global
affairs analyst, Michael Bociurkiw. He's a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, former spokesperson for the Organization for Security and
Cooperation in Europe. Good to have you here.
You know, as we look at where things stand, it's remarkable to me that even in these meetings today, you see Steve Witkoff in there alone. What does
that tell you about the American position?
MICHAEL BOCIURKIW, SENIOR FELLOW, ATLANTIC COUNCIL: Hey, good to be with you, Erica. Yes, it's very interesting. He was there alone. We know very
little of what happened. And he was also filmed on a kind of walking tour of Moscow, looking at possible business propositions there for himself and
for Mr. Trump. That was very interesting.
But Erica, I think we've seen a transition here from Trump 1.0, where there was a lot of tantrum diplomacy as I once put it on CNN opinion to Trump
2.0, where it's pitbull diplomacy. Mr. Trump, who has a very well-known short attention span, seems to suddenly rush into this, wanting a deal.
[14:10:00]
Now, I was at a talk last night where a lot of people here in London asked, is Mr. Trump gunning for the Nobel Peace Prize, or is he genuinely
interested in peace? I think it's more on the side of Trump wanting to secure a very elusive foreign affairs win. He hasn't had one in Gaza nor in
the Ukraine-Russia war. So, I think that accounts for some of the rush here. And of course, some of the secrecy as well.
HILL: Looking for that win, but also perhaps looking for that win in a way that comes with praise from Vladimir Putin. And I asked that question only
because what is striking to me, as we've seen, is the number of concessions, seemingly, when it comes to Russia.
BOCIURKIW: Yes --
HILL: You know, as Alex just pointed out, when the President was asked yesterday in the Oval Office, what is Russia conceding? The fact that the
answer was, they're going to stop fighting and not take over the entirety of Ukraine. I mean, that gave a number of people around the world pause for
good reason.
BOCIURKIW: Absolutely. And I can tell you here in the United Kingdom and in Europe, chills going back down the spines of leaders here for that big
concession. It can never be accepted. It's seen here as a betrayal of everything that western democracies stand for and what kind of signal does
it send out to other autocrats.
But I think with Mr. Putin, the kind of chemistry there between Putin and Trump is Mr. Trump looks up to him and he's willing to give him a lot of
concessions. We're now assuming that it won't be only Crimea, it will be lifting of sanctions. It will be freezing of the lines where they are right
now, which will grant Russia 20 percent more or less of Ukrainian territory.
There's even talk, Erica, of handing over the Russian-occupied Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant to the Americans so they can generate electricity for
both Ukraine and Russia. A lot of things stacked up here that at the end of the day, are tilted very much against Ukraine.
HILL: It's also when we look at the Crimea question, right. This would --
BOCIURKIW: Yes --
HILL: Of course, reverse, right, the position of -- the long-held position of the U.S. when it comes to Crimea, potentially violating international
law, certainly violating international norms, if you will. I mean, there's the practical matter of the fact that this can't really happen in Ukraine.
If the U.S. --
BOCIURKIW: Right --
HILL: Though, were to say, well, we are going to recognize Crimea as being Russian, and Russia is going to recognize it that way, even if everybody
else doesn't. Practically-speaking, how does that really work? Is this like renaming the Gulf of Mexico?
BOCIURKIW: Worse. And how would it work? I mean, I'm headed to Canada next, my home country. How would it work if they try to annex Canada? I think
there's a little bit of precedent here. You know, I would encourage the Trump team to read some history books. If we go back to when, you know, the
1940s, when Russia occupied the three Baltic states, Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, not to get too nerdy on you, but there is an acting Secretary of
State, Sumner Welles, and he put together a declaration that says, we're going to recognize the sovereignty, the independence of these occupied
states for as long as it takes.
And that lasted for five-plus decades. And it's important because it protected the assets of these states overseas. It gave people more rights
to travel, that sort of thing. So, I think if they employed a little bit of diplomatic creativity here, they could do something along those lines. But
again, the Trump team seems in such a rush that, that may not happen.
And again, it's very sensitive in Ukraine handing over a very important piece of illegally-annexed Ukrainian territory to the Russians.
HILL: There's also the reality that for Volodymyr Zelenskyy, this is a tough relationship, right? With Donald Trump.
BOCIURKIW: Yes.
HILL: What are you seeing in terms of recent steps from the Ukrainian side that either helping or hurting their case with the President?
BOCIURKIW: Yes, interesting question. You know, because I'm seeing some cracks in the kind of political unity that we've had for quite some time.
And I'm referring especially to Kyiv, Mayor Vitali Klitschko, who gave quite the news, breaking interview to another broadcaster today saying
that, yes, perhaps Ukraine can temporarily give up some territory in return for peace.
That's off message from the Zelenskyy team. That is -- you know, Klitschko is a political opponent of Zelenskyy. Zelenskyy is spending a lot of time
away from Ukraine. So, the cracks like that are happening. And one more quick thing that I think is very important is, a lot of Ukrainians I have
spoken to actually have not written off Crimea, but they recognize that it won't come back.
And as your colleagues pointed out, Russia is hammering Ukrainian cities and villages very hard. The desire for a long-lasting peace is getting more
and more. So very tough political shifting stands for Mr. Zelenskyy.
HILL: Yes, absolutely. Really important to pay attention in the days and the weeks ahead. Michael, I really appreciate your insight and your
expertise. Thank you.
BOCIURKIW: My pleasure. Thank you.
[14:15:00]
HILL: The U.N.'s World Food Program says it has completely run out of food for families in Gaza amid an ongoing Israeli blockade of all humanitarian
aid. The agency says it has now delivered its final food stocks to kitchens in Gaza today, and is warning the humanitarian crisis there has reached a
breaking point seven weeks after Israel sealed all main border crossings.
Germany, France and Britain are urging an end to the blockade, saying Palestinian civilians, including a million children, face an acute risk of
starvation, epidemic disease and death. Israel says the blockade and continuous airstrikes are intended to pressure Hamas to accept its terms of
a ceasefire. As for civilians, well, they say there is just nowhere they can escape the bombardment, even areas once considered safe.
This is the aftermath of a strike in the Al-Mawasi area of Khan Younis, which hit tents where families were sheltering. Children are among the
dead. You can hear the anguish in this father's voice.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We were sleeping at 2:30 a.m., I didn't know. I woke up and found the whole tent on fire. It must have been
hit by a shrapnel. I looked at the children and asked them about the little one, they said that he was at his aunt's, so, I went there but didn't find
him. I went out to find his body charred by fire. The whole tent was set on fire while he was in it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: Authorities in Gaza say at least 78 people have been killed in Israeli strikes in just the past 24 hours alone. Still ahead here tonight,
has Beijing blinked now in the tariff battle with the U.S.? The latest in the trade war between the world's two largest economies. And still to come,
final preparations underway for the funeral of Pope Francis as the public viewing comes to a close.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HILL: A quiet roll-back on tariffs in China's Shenzhen tech hub. Import agencies telling CNN that the -- that China has actually dialed back its
125 percent retaliatory tariffs on some U.S.-made microchips. Although there hasn't been a formal announcement nor confirmation from Beijing. The
move though comes as China says it is drawing up emergency plans to contend with, quote, "increasing external shocks".
Joining me now to break down the details, CNN's Matt Egan is with me now. So, when you look at this, Matt, it's certainly an interesting development,
especially with what we've been hearing and the back-and-forth over the -- was there a call, was there not a call? Are there talks between the U.S.
and China?
[14:20:00]
MATT EGAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Erica, happy Friday, and yes, this is an intriguing development indeed in this U.S.-China trade war that is really
rattling investors and CEOs around the world. So, yes, it does appear as though China has quietly rolled back some of these retaliatory tariffs on
semiconductors made in America.
As you mentioned, this has not been formally announced, but three import agencies in China have provided the details to CNN. And of course, this
comes at a time when officials in Beijing, they are trying to shield their already-struggling economy from all of this turmoil resulting from the
trade war. Both sides, both countries, the U.S. and China have tried to project some confidence, right?
That their economies can navigate through this trade war. But both sides have also done exemptions and carve-outs here, right? In the U.S. after
that meltdown in the stock market, particularly tech stocks. The White House exempted smartphones and other electronics from the U.S. tariffs on
China. That was a big win for iPhone users and for Apple, of course.
And now, we see that China is doing something similar here. And so, that is important because it suggests that leaders in both nations realize that
there's damage here being done from the trade war, and that they really do need products from each other. Whether or not it results in any sort of
agreement, that's another matter altogether, particularly because, Erica, as you noted right now, neither China nor the United States can seem to
agree on whether or not they're even talking, let alone come to an agreement on these really thorny and complex trade issues.
HILL: Yes, absolutely. When it comes to tariff deals with any nation, the President saying they're very close with Japan. Yesterday, I was struck by
Secretary Bessent when he was highlighting progress with South Korea. Given how much uncertainty there is for investors, for companies, just put into
context for me, Matt, and I know you're constantly on the phone with people. How much of a difference could a deal announcement or two, make on
Wall Street and actually for broader markets across the globe?
EGAN: Well, Erica, look, if you liked the chaos and confusion over the rollout to tariffs, you're going to love all of the confusion around so-
called trade deals, right? The White House might refer to it as a trade deal or trade agreement. What's likely to happen is we might get a
framework of an agreement, right?
Broad terms that both sides then have to really hammer out over weeks, months or even years. So, sort of have to tap the brakes on whether or not
there's going to be a real deal announced. But yes, I do think that if there's some sort of a framework announced, that's going to be applauded by
investors here in the U.S. and really around the world, because it would clear up some of the chaos and some of the uncertainty.
It could even unclog the trade that has been slowed or even crippled by the tariffs. For example, you mentioned South Korea. I mean, that's a nation
that the U.S. has very good relations with. And yet, South Korea faces this 25 percent tariff on steel, aluminum, autos, a 10 percent universal tariff
as well. And there are some early signs that, that has done damage.
South Korea has reported that their exports to the United States have plunged by 14 percent through the first part of April. That is a very
significant drop. And of course, if there were an agreement, a framework announced that especially one that lowered tariffs on both sides, that
would be very good news for the economy and for financial markets.
But Erica, I do think that the big question-mark is what happens with China, right? When do the tariffs that both countries have put on each
other, when do those tariffs start to come down, and how low do they go and how long will they stay low? Because until we get progress on that front,
on the U.S.-China trade war, I think we're going to continue to see a lot of volatility in financial markets and really the world economy. Back to
you --
HILL: Yes, the uncertainty feels like it's here to stay for a little bit longer. Matt, appreciate it as always. Thank you.
EGAN: Thanks, Erica.
HILL: The U.S. and Iran are set to begin a third round of nuclear talks this weekend. Senior State Department official Michael Anton is expected to
lead that U.S. delegation along with envoy Steve Witkoff. The discussions are likely to be a more difficult phase of technical negotiations. U.S.
Secretary of State Marco Rubio has said he does not envision Iran enriching its own uranium.
Instead, he sees the nuclear fuel being imported for civilian energy program. Tehran has said enriching uranium is non-negotiable. Tough
questions and criticism. That's what a number of U.S. lawmakers, both Democrats and Republicans are facing in town halls across the country. One
Democratic congresswoman interrupted multiple times at an event by a yelling crowd.
[14:25:00]
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. MARIE GLUESENKAMP PEREZ (D-WA): Being angry, being loud feels good, but is it a productive, long-term strategy?
CROWD: Yes!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How about you just stand up for us?
PEREZ: And I had --
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You betrayed the people who voted for you!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: In most of these contentious incidents, voters want to know how their elected leaders are countering the Trump administration's actions. At an
event in Iowa, House Republican Ashley Hinson was asked a pointed question about President Trump's executive power.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When will you and your Republican colleagues take back your legislative power to rein in President Trump's --
(APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When are you going to rein that power back in? You're not -- you're losing -- the executive branch is running the other two
branches right now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: The congressman responding, she and her Republican colleagues are doing what they campaigned on. As we take a closer look now at the Trump
administration's battle over immigration, the FBI says it has arrested Wisconsin Judge Hannah Dugan, who is accused of helping an undocumented
immigrant avoid arrest by Immigration and Customs Enforcement, known as ICE.
A law enforcement official tells CNN, the judge is now facing obstruction charges, as well as charges related to concealing an individual from
arrest. CNN's Katelyn Polantz has more as this story is developing. Katelyn, walk us through what happened here.
KATELYN POLANTZ, CNN CRIME & JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Erica, this is about what happened during the court proceeding that Judge Dugan was holding for
a man from Mexico. He was there before her -- she's a local judge in Milwaukee. He was there before her on a domestic violence case, and instead
of hearing his case that day, she is accused of having him in her courtroom and then ushering him out through a jury door, essentially the back door,
through the back door of the courthouse so that he could exit the courthouse.
The reason was because the judge is accused of being very aware that federal immigration authorities were waiting for his proceeding to be over
so that they could apprehend him. And so, Erica, this is a situation where the aggressiveness of the Trump administration's approach to immigration is
playing out in Milwaukee.
They were trying to arrest this man who they say was an unlawful immigrant to the United States, because he was facing this other set of charges
related to domestic violence. And then, as they are trying to apprehend him and take him through immigration proceedings, they now say that there was
this Judge, Hannah Dugan, who was trying to help him.
The official charges against her obstructing a proceeding, meaning the immigration proceeding of this man and trying to conceal him to prevent his
discovery and arrest. She appeared in court today and has been released. He also is facing a federal charge related to this whole situation regarding
his removal from the United States. He still is in detention and we're waiting to see exactly what else happens in court for Judge Dugan. But it
is an unusual situation, though not unprecedented in the federal court system. Erica?
HILL: Yes, it is something. Katelyn, appreciate it. Thank you. In New York, disgraced former U.S. Congressman George Santos has been sentenced to 87
months in prison. Santos pleading guilty to aggravated identity theft and wire fraud charges related to activity during his 2022 campaign. You may
recall that in 2023, the U.S. House voted to expel Santos over ethics violations, making him just the sixth lawmaker ever to be ousted from the
chamber.
We are also following developments in the case of Luigi Mangione entering a plea of not guilty a short time ago to all federal charges against him. The
26-year-old is accused of killing UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. Last week, a federal grand jury indicted him for that December 4th killing. On
Thursday, the Justice Department filed a notice that it would seek the death penalty.
The killing itself on a New York City street also sparking a debate in the U.S. over health care costs and the for-profit health care system. Still
ahead here, a final goodbye to Pope Francis after three days of lying in state, St. Peter's basilica is now closed to the public as the Vatican
prepares for his funeral. And CNN introduces you to some of the tailors responsible for dressing popes for more than 200 years.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:33:03]
HILL: St. Peter's Basilica as you see there on your screen now closed to the public. The casket of Pope Francis is set to be sealed at any moment as
the Vatican makes its final preparations to also welcome world leaders, monarchs, and of course, ordinary worshippers alike for the Pope's funeral
on Saturday.
According to the Vatican, some 250,000 mourners filed past his casket over the last three days to pay their final respects. Much of the Pope's funeral
will be held outside in St. Peter's Square and then a procession will take the Pope's body through the heart of Rome to the Basilica of Santa Maria
Maggiore where he'll be laid to rest in a simple unadorned tomb reflecting his final wishes.
Tributes to the Pope of course have already been appearing many of them across the city. This street mural in Rome shows a depiction of the Pope
with angel wings.
Joining me now for more is CNN Vatican Correspondent Christopher Lamb. I mean, it's been -- it's been quite a few days for you there in Rome,
Christopher, to put it mildly, as you're watching all of this unfold. And so many coming to pay their respects to the late pontiff.
CHRISTOPHER LAMB, CNN VATICAN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Yes, that's right, Erica. We are expecting a big number tomorrow in St. Peter's Square,
thousands -- tens of thousands are going to be there to witness this historic and really truly extraordinary sendoff for Pope Francis.
There's going to be heads of state from all over the world. Papal funerals are, you know, unprecedented in the sense that they can bring together
world leaders into one place like no other event. Of course, President Trump is going to be here, President Macron, President Zelenskyy. They're
all going to be seated in alphabetical order according to the French language which is French, of course, being the language of -- one of the
languages of diplomacy. So, President Trump will not be given a sort of special place. The special places are reserved for the delegations from
Italy and Argentina. Argentina being the Pope's home country.
We are expecting a very moving and powerful mass liturgy to say farewell to Pope Francis who served as the pontiff for almost 12 -- just over 12 years.
[14:35:20]
Now, amongst the people gathering here are also religious leaders from different faiths. Pope Francis made a special point of building bridges
with the Muslim world. I spoke to an imam just a few moments ago who had come over from the United States to be here to pay his respects to Pope
Francis. He said he knew Pope Francis from his time in Argentina and saw Francis many times over his pontific. And he said that Francis had a great
gift of building friendships with other faith leaders. So, we're expecting dozens of representatives from different faiths here in Rome, in the
Vatican for this funeral.
Pope Francis wasn't just a pope for Catholics. He had a gift of communicating with Christians from different denominations and also those
of other faiths. So, we're expecting, you know, extraordinary scenes tomorrow, also when the pope's Casket is transferred from the Vatican to
the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore where the pope wants to be buried.
You know, scenes of a papal funeral procession haven't been filmed before because the last pope to be buried outside of St. Peter's Basilica was over
100 years ago. The Pope Francis will be buried at the Basilica of Santa Maria Maggiore in a simple tomb which simply has the word Franciscus on it.
And the last people to say farewell to the pope will be some of the poorest and those on the margins of society in Rome, a fitting way to say goodbye
to the pope who devoted himself so much to the poorest in society and said he wanted a poor church for the poor. Erica?
HILL: Yes, certainly. And so fitting and what a moment to have that be the final group of people as you point out to say farewell. Christopher Lamb, I
appreciate it. Thank you.
Also with me this hour, CNN Vatican Analyst Elise Allen. She's a senior correspondent for the Catholic news site Crux. Elise, it's great to have
you here. You know, as you noted, the Pope really saw it as his task in many ways, to overhaul the church, right? Calling on the church to be more
-- and these are your words -- more merciful, spending less time tied up in theological debates and more time reaching out to the wounded and the
suffering. And so, how fitting that there is this emphasis on those final moments before that tomb will be sealed tomorrow?
ELISE ALLEN, CNN VATICAN ANALYST: Yes, Erica. It's wonderful to be with you. You know, this is one of the most characteristic aspects of Pope
Francis is just how strongly he really emphasized what he would call those on the peripheries of life. Those on life's margins those who feel excluded
and unseen Those are the people that he wanted to prioritize. So, it is very fitting in that sense that the last people to bid him his final
farewell will be a group of poor people from Rome.
And I think some of them are homeless who might have dined with him before because he used to host, you know, crowds of homeless you know with him in
the Vatican for his birthday. He would give them pizza. He would give them pasta lunches. You know, he really made that sort of a cornerstone of his
papacy. And I think even his decision to be buried outside of the Vatican is indicative in this regard.
You know -- you know to get into St. Peters, you have to go through the protocol, you have to go through the metal detectors. You know, it's more
difficult to get into, you know. And at St Mary Major, it's much easier for people to access. You know, there are still some metal detectors there as
there are in many churches, you know, the main papal Basilicas in Rome, but he wanted to be accessible to the people. He wanted any ordinary person to
be able to come and to have contact with him. That's what he saw the church as being. You know, it needs to be in contact with the people.
HILL: Yes, absolutely. I was also struck, you know, as Christopher was -- my colleague was just pointing out too, the number of world leaders will be
there. But also will be in attendance, right, other faith leaders. The way that the Pope reached out and brought so many together that there were
plenty of times and he wasn't afraid to speak out on just about any issue, right, and to make his voice heard. To have all of these people now coming
to pay their respects to him in this moment for this final farewell, that also speaks to what we saw from him over the, you know, 12-plus years of
his papacy.
ALLEN: No, you're absolutely right. I agree. He had a gift for doing that and for, you know, what he would call building bridges. There wasn't
anybody he didn't want to have dialogue with, and that was something he repeated over and over again. You know, that we need to have dialogue. We
need to open doors. That the church should not be closed. Its door should be open to everyone, you know. And especially at an institutional level,
right? And also, diplomatically in relations with, you know, other faith communities, other Christian communities, you know, that was very much a
priority for him.
He wanted to open those doors. He wanted to build bridges with other communities. And he did that especially, of course, you know, with the
Islamic community traveling to many Islamic countries throughout his papacy, countries where the Catholic Church is frankly a minority to
encourage those people, but to also -- you know, the local Catholic populations, but also to forge relationships with the religious majorities
in those -- in those places. That's something for which he will be remembered especially I think he did that. You know, many of his
predecessors have done the same thing, you know, reaching out to other faith communities. But Francis really took it to another level.
And that's something that I think will be an enduring part of his legacy. And we're seeing that also in his funeral in terms of the faith communities
that are turning out tomorrow. I think many will be represented.
[14:41:06]
HILL: You talk about him taking that to another level. It would seem to -- I mean, to me that also speaks to the broad appeal that he had, right, for
people from all different faiths. You didn't have to be a Catholic. And so many people mourning the loss of this man this week who are not Catholic
but who admired his approach to the world. May not have agreed with him on every topic, but appreciated his humanity, his kindness, his empathy, and
his honesty.
ALLEN: Exactly. No, Francis was seen fundamentally as a man of peace, you know, a man who wanted to promote, you know, human values, compassion, and
mercy. And that's something that many people felt drawn to and especially, you know, as religious communities those are shared values amongst many
religious beliefs and many religious traditions, you know. So, that was really a message that crossed lines, you know, and crossed barriers.
And I think one of the most beautiful images, you know, that speaks to this is when he was in, you know, Jakarta. You know, he visited the Istiqlal
Mosque, the largest mosque there. You know, in his final -- you know, his longest trip -- one of his final trip was to a little island, you know, in
France called Corsica. But this long voyage to Asia he made, it was really his kind of last hurrah in his papacy, you know, before he started to
become ill.
There's a beautiful image of the imam there kissing him tenderly on the forehead. And that is something that is I think an image that will --
that's very powerful, that speaks to just how much he was able to penetrate, you know, those communities and how strongly his message came
across and how many bridges he really was able to build in his 12 years.
HILL: Yes. Elise, I really appreciate you joining us this afternoon. Thank you.
ALLEN: Thank you.
HILL: Pope Francis was, as we were just talking about, distinct from his predecessors for a number of reasons, also including the way he chose to
dress. So, as the world awaits the upcoming conclave, Ben Wedeman met with the man who will provide tailoring for Francis's successor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Pope Francis was a man of simple taste, usually dressed in a plain white
cassette. His predecessor Benedict the 16th was big on tradition. Few know better the whims of papal fashion than the Gammarelli family, tailor to the
clergy from priests to bishops, cardinals to popes.
Every pope has his own style says Lorenzo Gammarelli, because apart from being a pope, they are humans who have their own taste.
Around the corner from Piazza della Minerva in Rome, they have more than two centuries of experience.
The Gammarelli family has been in business for six generations, open since 1798. For the past eight conclaves, Gammarelli has prepared three outfits,
small, medium, large ready to wear for whoever is chosen.
Here it's business as usual until an order arrives from the pontiff.
Keep in mind it's not like making an outfit for another person, Lorenzo tells me. When it's for the pope, we concentrate fully on that outfit.
He was hesitant to talk prices. I asked him if I wanted to buy a bishop's outfit, how much would it cost?
First you have to become a bishop, he responded. OK. Not likely.
Stockings are more within the price range of those rising through the ranks. Rozenn Dedeyan from France bought a pair for her priest.
[14:45:03]
ROZENN DEDEYAN, FRENCH TOURIST: So, we were in front of this very famous shop. And I knew that the pope's socks came from here. So, I asked him,
would you like a pair of socks from Gammarelli? And he said, oh, well, if you insist. So, we bought the socks.
WEDEMAN (voice-over): Pope Francis became a Gammarelli client when he was appointed cardinal 24 years ago. Today's cardinal and client could be
tomorrow's pope.
LORENZO GAMMARELLI, POPE'S TAYLOR: No comment.
WEDEMAN (voice-over): Who do you think will be the next pope, I ask? Who is most Papabile? Of the latest pope says Lorenzo, we were only able to guess
Pope Benedict would be elected. All the others were a surprise.
Ben Wedeman, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HILL: And be sure to join us right here on CNN for our special coverage of Pope Francis's funeral coming up on Saturday. Our coverage begins at 8:00
a.m. in Rome. Of course, that is 2:00 a.m. here in New York. And I will be seeing you then.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
HILL: "VISIONARIES" is a CNN series highlighting trailblazers and leaders across sport, tech, business, and the arts. In the world of women's sport -
- women's sport, rather, Ilona Maher has become the face of rugby but really the face of so much more as the Olympian shares a message that
resonates far beyond sport. CNN's Christina Macfarlane spent time with Ilona in her hometown in Vermont. Here's a preview.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHRISTINA MACFARLANE, CNN ANCHOR: In our hyper-opinionated social media age, it takes confidence to block out the noise and share your whole self.
ILONA MAHER, RUGBY PLAYER: So, I was talking to an older woman yesterday and I was like, oh, you should watch our games. I'm number two. I'm the
really big girl out there. And she was like, No, no, no, you shouldn't call yourself big. You're not big. You're beautiful. And I was like, no, no, no,
I am big. And what I think is cool is that I've now taken control of that word and I love being called big. And I call myself big and I call -- my
teammates call me big and I don't mind it.
MACFARLANE (voice-over): It's exactly the kind of message millions of fans have come to count on from Ilona Maher, an Olympic medalist, professional
rugby athlete, social media superstar, brand ambassador, S.I. swimsuit cover model, Dancing with the Stars runner up, all of that within the last
year alone, as Ilona has become the face of her sport and so much more.
[14:50:08]
MAHER: As the Olympics officially start today, I want you all to take a look at all the different body types on display. All body types matter. All
body types are worthy.
MACFARLANE (voice-over): While her popularity skyrocketed since the Paris Games last summer becoming the most followed rugby player in the world, the
work started long before then.
It began here in Burlington, Vermont.
MACFARLANE: Obviously, you grew up here. What was your childhood like? What was that experience like?
MAHER: Well, Burlington is an amazing place. I went to a very small Catholic school right by here called St. Joe's. We were just talking about
it on the drive here. I graduated in a class of nine from 8th grade. And so, I think there's a great sense of community here because of my Catholic
school, because of the sports that I played.
I went to college outside of the state but still I always feel like when I come back here I have, you know, whether it's family, some friends, but
still that sense here.
MACFARLANE: And you return now not just as an Olympic bronze medalist but as a social media sensation, the face of women's rugby. I would actually
argue all of rugby. What does it feel like to have become America's sweetheart?
MAHER: I love when people call me that because it's -- I feel like I'm maybe not the image people would have of a sweetheart in some senses of the
-- of the word, the phrase, but I'm honored that I am that way. It's been so cool to get all of these under my belt, whether it's, you know, Sports
Illustrated Dancing with the Stars, I think something that I really stress is that this isn't -- it doesn't feel new or different for me. I mean,
since Tokyo Olympics, I've been posting consistently.
This was kind of the trajectory I wanted it to take. I knew that in my sport I wouldn't just get to play my sport and be happy with it. I knew
that I had to do more to make have a comfortable life for myself, to spread my game, to spread rugby in general. So, for years now, I've been leading
up to this point hoping to do what I have done. And so, I'm so happy that this worked out like it did.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
HILL: And our thanks again to Christina for that report. You can see her full interview with Ilona Maher on "VISIONARIES" which premieres this
weekend.
Still ahead here tonight, the Hubble Space Telescope turning 35. And in celebration, NASA released some breathtaking images proving that in space
it turns out in Space 2 age, nothing but a number.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
[14:55:06]
HILL: A new discovery shows ants were ruining picnics for dinosaurs long before they found that sugar bowl at your house. According to a study
published in the journal Current Biology, this is the oldest known ant specimen known to science. It's called the Hell Ant. It lived along
dinosaurs some 113 million years ago and was found in limestone at a Brazilian museum. Hell Ants have been found preserved in amber before but
never quite this old.
Finally, for you this hour, the Hubble Space Telescope is celebrating its 35th birthday. NASA releasing some pretty remarkable images to mark the
occasion. Take a look here. They include this stunning galaxy which is a mere 225 million light years away, our neighbor, a little closer to home
though. Hubble also took these photos of the rocky terrain and icy caps of our red neighbor Mars. A really breathtaking reminder of just how vast and
frankly beautiful the cosmos is.
Thanks so much for joining me here tonight. I'm Erica Hill in for Isa Soares. Be sure to stay with CNN "NEWSROOM" with Omar Jimenez is up next.
END
